The CBB :: View topic - EBD's Conversion

Did Joey actually convert? I've never been sure if she did, or if the kids were just raised Catholic.

In the June, 1963 Newsletter (p. 37 of FOCS edition), EBD writes to Lynda Bill, Dagenham:Quote:Joey began life as a member of the Church of England. She became a convert in a book which has never seen the light of day. Jack was a "cradle" Catholic.

we're not told how Len and Reg planned to deal with the issue of being of different religions.

The attitude towards Naomi really annoys me, but I don't find it strange that there are no other pupils who aren't from Christian backgrounds. The Christian ethos of the school might well have put off parents of other religions ...

I don't know either Hereford or South Shields very well ... does anyone know what relations between Catholics and Protestants in either place were like in c.1930?

...there's no attempt to even sketch in (apart from a single reference in Trials) people for whom religion is a matter of course, or a bit of a yawn - she presents virtually the entire school as more than averagely devout.

There came the sound of girls kneeling down and Samantha followed suit.
"They seem to go a lot on prayers here," she thought as she buried her face in her hands. For a few minutes there was silence and Samantha, having repeated OUR FATHER, wondered what else she could say. She could think of nothing, so she remained kneeling until the sound of the bell seemed to bring everyone to their feet.

Realistically, there must have been many other girls who went along with Prayers as a part of the school routine, but who didn't have any strong personal faith. EBD just didn't choose to write about them.

There's quite a history of writers converting to Catholicism in the early 20th century - Waugh, Belloc, Chesterton, for example - were there any reforms going on in the Church of England which might have encouraged conversion to the RC church?

I also wonder if EBD maybe moved to a new parish at around the same time, 'allowing' her to convert without having to physically abandon the social group of her old church. That might explain the timing - does anyone know? I know she and her mother did move around a bit.

Have just checked this and in 1930, EBD was still living with her mother and stepfather in South Shields

The stuff I find more unrealistic is stuff like in whichever book they dedicate the chapels. and the entire school, of both varieties of Christianity and down to the youngest girls, is depicted as deeply moved and subdued for a full week afterwards.

Around the time EBD converts, this changes. We then see several British Catholic mistresses - Nell Wilson, Con Stewart, Grace Nalder - and numerous British Catholic pupils. I might be imagining it, but I do think that there's a change around the time.

‘I can walk quite well, thank you,’ said the Robin with a broad bream. ‘Oh, I do like this dear little place! There’s the church! Do we all go there on Sunday?’
‘I suppose so,’ replied Miss Wilson. ‘Anne and Louise and Dorothy and you, at any rate. Joey may if she likes. I know her sister doesn’t mind.’
‘Rather not,’ said Joey, who was striding along on the other side of the Robin. ‘She has more sense than to be narrow-minded about that! What about Elsie and Vi and Ruth and Eustacia, though?’
‘Elsie may go if she chooses. Her mother has sent written permission’ replied the mistress. ‘I don’t’ think we’ll take Violet or Ruth. I don’t know about Eustacia.’

Was it Margia in the Tyrol years who's reported by Eustacia for drawing in her prayerbook?

Alison H wrote:

we're not told how Len and Reg planned to deal with the issue of being of different religions.

Does this mean it's not too much to hope that someone will bounce up at the wedding ceremony and shout 'I declare an impediment'?

At infant school, we had an end of day prayer and one of my classmates reported me to the teacher for having my eyes open during the prayer. She didn’t understand why the rest of the class laughed.

I definitely see the dire Morag in Jean of Storms as representing something of EBD's own feelings about hardline Calvinism - she's such a caricature, and it's the only time I can think of that EBD ever represents Christianity of any stripe in a bad light!

Sunglass wrote:

Quote:

The vicar's wife in Jo Returns gets a bit of a hard time - she is an interfering busybody.

To be fair, I think that during the War a lot of people would have been suspicious if a group including a lot of "foreigners", especially if they realised that some of them had Austrian names, had suddenly appeared in their midst.

Oh sure, all I meant was that, despite the fact we're in a small gossippy village in the middle of nowhere in wartime, it's only the dislikeable C of E clergy wife who seems to find them suspicious, which seemed an interesting choice of joke villain for EBD

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

Quote:

Not only is there a house full of "foreigners", their dog is poisoned and there's Joey's attack on the burglar. Surely all pretty suspicious in a small, gossipy village in wartime?

Reg would then have made friends with someone like Superintendent Jenks, rather than with the Maynards, and he and Len would never have met again ... oh happy thought!

Quote:

Reg would then have made friends with someone like Superintendent Jenks, rather than with the Maynards, and he and Len would never have met again ... oh happy thought!

Reg would have become a policeman rather than a doctor - but would he have been the opera-loving Inspector who solves the mystery or the dim sidekick? Or just ended up doing the legwork for Miss Marple?

One of two of the Chalet School staff were there too, but the majority, like the girls, were Catholics.

EBD's ecuminism and internationalism were remarkable for the time. I cannot imagine that level of openness being tolerated in Ireland in the 30's 40's and 50's. Someone brought up the point about Vatican 2 changes not being aired and I just wonder if that was because, according to CS time, the series ended with the school still in the '50s.

It's probably why, the Vatican II was never addressed. I googled the subject when trying to research this topic and something someone said on one of the website was Antonia Forest addressed this issue with her characters. ... It would have been interesting to see Naomi develop her beliefs of at least sort all that out after she had been fixed or see the viewpoints of someone who remains unreligious and how they feel about the amount of religion that was a part of the average day at school.

Whereas EBD's religious agenda is really in smoothing out doctrinal etc differences between Catholics and Protestants - apart from the mentions of separation at prayers, and a scatter of tiny things like the triplets' godparents, you'd have no sense at all that there were differences

Come to think of it, we see Hilda teaching the gospel of Luke in 'Scripture' lessons - presumably these would have been shared? - but the girls must also have had some form of regular religion lessons, although there's never a reference to who teaches them...? Unless those are delegated to the school chaplains...?

I quite admire the way EBD glosses over practical details like scripture class and Joey's conversion. If she had to go into detail quite a few doctrinal differences would emerge. .

I've read AF's Kingscote and agree that they are extremely well written and have a greater dimension to the characters than the CS series, but I found the characters, while very realistic, quite cold and cynical. ... As a whole, the Kingscote girls were pretty horrible to that child who died - Maire Dobbs? They don't seem to have any feelings of remorse either when they hear of her death.

Call me cynical

but perhaps EBD was so unbiased so that she wouldn't alienate some of her readership. After all, if she condemned one of the religions she might lose readers of that faith. I don't think that can be the whole reason, her religious writing is too deeply felt in the books, IMHO, to be the only reason, but it's something she might have been conscious of.

There's a bit in the GGBP copy of Three Go about the Margaret Roper, and I seem to remember it was ecumenical, with even a couple of Jewish children (I might be imagining this). Apparently some of the plays that feature in the books were produced at this school, which probably accounts for their detail.

By 1938 Elinor had been a convert to Catholicism for eight years, but she was clearly anxious that her school should be open to those of other demoninations, which in terms of those days was remarkable ecumenical in spirit. Probably she was keen that the tolerance embodied in the fictional Chalet School should apply equally to the Margaret Roper School, and it does seem that this really was the case. Certainly girls from both Protestant and Catholic families were among those numbered on the school roll, and a former pupil who retains particularly fond memories of the chool, Luella Hamilton (then Gresham), was in fact Jewish.

But isn't that the subtlety of the writing of the whole Marie Dobson' death bit? The majority of the girls are making the right noises and putting on a show of sorrow and helping to compose a patently insincere little note to the Dobson parents, Miranda, Tim and Lawrie in their different ways, refuse to go along with what they see as hypocrisy, and Nicola has a confused sense of regret that she doesn't care more.

Doesn't someone - Jo Scott? - say that they aren't meant to talk about religion, when someone else (Yseult?) makes a remark about Robin being a nun?

Someone should have told her to get over herself

It is odd to say "we're not meant to talk about religion" but the school would want to avoid any catholic v protestant conversations. I felt that in this instance Jo was trying to stop Yseult commenting on Robin's decision to become a nun.

I think maybe the rule is to stop girls from heedlessly insulting one another over something so fundamental than to limit spiritual discussion, if that makes sense.

It just seems an oddly draconian rule for EBD, given that it implies that, unless there was such a rule, the CS girls would be insulting one another's version of Christianity. Surely no 'true CS girl' would be so uncouth/unpleasant/unChristian? We certainly never see a single hint of any kind of Protestant/Catholic bad feeling, ever, apart from what this rule implies.

"What's the use of arguing about it [Robin's vocation]? Yseult doesn't understand, any more than I do, and it's no business of ours anyway..."

...They left Robin in far-off Toronto and came back to the Chalet School on the Gornetz Platz at this reminder, much to the relief of Jo Scott who had been about to remind them that religion was not supposed to be discussed among them. Excitements at the Chalet School

it's Joan who ends the discussion firmly

We don’t have Divinity, either. We have so many religions here, that it couldn’t be done! R.C.’s, English Church, Greek Church, Lutherans, Calvinists! It’s too much of a mixture! We go to our own churches on Sundays, and get it that way. Where will you go, by the way?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	EBD's Conversion
My apologies for posting this a few days late EBD converted to Catholicism in 1930. I have goggled converting to Catholicism but have been unable to discover how it was done in 1930. Converting to Catholicism nowadays involves the following: Choose a church, and start attending mass. Talk with other parishioners about Parish. Contact the Parish office at chosen church and discuss conversion with them. Attend confirmation classes; discuss with parish priest about why you want to convert and initiate the RICA. There are four main periods during the process: Pre-catechumenate; the catechumenate, the purification and enlightenment; and Mystology. Become confirmed and participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist during the Easter Vigil (also be baptised if not already). At this time you become a Neophyte and a full member of the Roman Catholic Church. EBD published three books in 1930: Eustacia of the Chalet School, Jean of Storms and School by the River. She also went to the Oberammergau Passion Play. I have been unable to discover any information about EBD’s reasons or thoughts/feelings behind her conversion. However, EBD was described as being very ecumenical and her school- Margaret Roper was described as very non-denominational but with strong religious tradition. I do think we can surmise some of her feeling from what she wrote in her books published at the time. Jean of Jean of Storms is described as having problems with Morag’s very puritanical views on religion and Christmas. She even says as much to Oona and is determined Morag will not have anything to do with teaching Allie about religion or her beliefs. There is also Oona’s reaction when on Allie’s arrival and realises Allie’s lack of knowledge about the catechism. In Eustacia, when Joey is discussing going to Mass with Eustacia describes it as one road to God. A viewpoint she holds onto throughout the books. EBD may have been very ecumenical in her time and ahead of what the general thought of the day was, she does however struggle with any discussions about religion where the characters aren’t religious. We see this in Mary Lou’s reaction to Naomi’s lack of belief and EBD rarely, if at all, does not show her characters discussing their doubts about what they believe in. There are no Jewish characters, force to confront or deal with issues pertaining to being a member of a Christian school and neither do any Catholics discuss the Vatican changes. What do others think of EBD views on Catholicism, and religion in general? Does anyone have any information about her conversion to Catholicism? Please discuss any and all thoughts regarding this

Author:	Newiegirl [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
This is quite a fascinating topic for a lifelong Catholic like myself. I've been a RCIA 'buddy' for people who are converting and their reasons are always very interesting. Prior to doing that I was always a bit sceptical of converts, wondering if they were just drawn to the 'bells and smells' (we do put on a good show), but I found their reasons were usually quite deep and they had first felt a pull towards Catholicism many years before they actually walked into a church. So I tend to assume that EBD was considering/moving towards conversion right from the beginning of the CS (or possibly before). Did Joey actually convert? I've never been sure if she did, or if the kids were just raised Catholic.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
In Rescue, when the nosy neighbour asks why they didn't attend the Anglican service, Sybil tells the nosy neighbour that she's the only Protestant there, which suggests that Joey had converted. Also, in Richenda, when Ricki is staying with the Maynards, Ricki is expected to attend the local Protestant service on her own whilst the Maynards all attend the Catholic service. However, I suppose it's possible that Joey never actually converted but just didn't want to attend Protestant services on her own whilst the rest of the family went to Catholic services - Tony Blair (before his conversion) is a well-known recent example of someone who often attended Catholic services with their Catholic spouse and children rather than go to Protestant services on their own. We're never actually told that Joey had converted, and we're not told how Len and Reg planned to deal with the issue of being of different religions. The series ended - Prefects was, if we go by the triplets' DOB, 1958 - before Vatican II, I think. I don't know either Hereford or South Shields very well ... does anyone know what relations between Catholics and Protestants in either place were like in c.1930? Converting would have been much less of a big deal in, say, NE Lancashire or N Yorkshire than in, say, Liverpool or Glasgow. I haven't been to the Achensee but have been to other parts of Tyrol and found it the most devoutly Catholic place I've ever been to, even more so than Poland or Lithuania, and I think that that comes across in the early books and wonder if maybe that had some influence on EBD. The Oberland in the '50s would have mainly very strictly Protestant, but that doesn't really come across at all in the Swiss books. The attitude towards Naomi really annoys me, but I don't find it strange that there are no other pupils who aren't from Christian backgrounds. The Christian ethos of the school might well have put off parents of other religions (assuming that they did read the prospectus!), and none of the school's locations are areas where there would have been a lot of people who weren't from Christian backgrounds, unless they were being treated at the San. I do, however, wonder why she made an issue out of the Frys being Quakers (I suspect she took the idea from one of EJO's books!), but then said that Richenda went to C of E services with Nanny and then seemed to forget about the subject completely! Also, although Belsornia is sometimes located in the NW part of the Balkans, it's usually situated in the SE Balkans which would make it almost certain that the royal family would be Orthodox rather than Catholic, but because all EBD's characters have to be either Catholic or Protestant we're told that Elisaveta is Catholic!

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Newiegirl wrote: Did Joey actually convert? I've never been sure if she did, or if the kids were just raised Catholic. Kathy_S said this on the Religion thread last time this was discussed: Quote: In the June, 1963 Newsletter (p. 37 of FOCS edition), EBD writes to Lynda Bill, Dagenham:Quote:Joey began life as a member of the Church of England. She became a convert in a book which has never seen the light of day. Jack was a "cradle" Catholic. Alison H wrote: we're not told how Len and Reg planned to deal with the issue of being of different religions. Does this mean it's not too much to hope that someone will bounce up at the wedding ceremony and shout 'I declare an impediment'? Alison H wrote: The attitude towards Naomi really annoys me, but I don't find it strange that there are no other pupils who aren't from Christian backgrounds. The Christian ethos of the school might well have put off parents of other religions ... The thing that strikes me as odd in this is not that the school doesnt have a sprinkling of Jewish, Hindu, Bah'ai and Jehovah's Witness girls (though I have to say I would be quite amused to listen to the explanation of where exactly all the different religions find to be separate for prayers ), it's that there's no attempt to even sketch in (apart from a single reference in Trials) people for whom religion is a matter of course, or a bit of a yawn - she presents virtually the entire school as more than averagely devout. Might it be the case that her conversion colours EBD's entire approach to religion, and makes her at some level unable to grasp the mentality of people who simply aren't bothered, for whom religion isn't what it clearly was for her - a hugely important choice and source of strength? (I know my school prospectus gave the impression we all shone in the light of holiness - and we did have a brief prayer at the start and end of each lesson, as well as morning prayers, school masses etc - but I don't think either the nuns or our parents expected - or got - devotion, and we played a lot of Hangman!) I definitely see the dire Morag in Jean of Storms as representing something of EBD's own feelings about hardline Calvinism - she's such a caricature, and it's the only time I can think of that EBD ever represents Christianity of any stripe in a bad light!

Author:	JB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Alison H wrote: Quote: I don't know either Hereford or South Shields very well ... does anyone know what relations between Catholics and Protestants in either place were like in c.1930? According to BTSC, there was religious division in South Shields - "bigotry and ill will existed on both sides". Helen McClelland also references the books of Catherine Cookson, who also grew up in South Shields, which feature this.

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

EBD's Conversion http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6551

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sunglass wrote: ...there's no attempt to even sketch in (apart from a single reference in Trials) people for whom religion is a matter of course, or a bit of a yawn - she presents virtually the entire school as more than averagely devout. Joan Baker doesn't think much of religion when she arrives, does she? I think EBD's conversion and its importance to her shines through strongly in her writing. Religion is clearly important to her CS characters - from basic things like 'Our Lord' giving Grizel strength on the Tiernjoch to OOAO's horror at Naomi. I always assumed that Joey had converted.

Author:	JayB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sunglass:...there's no attempt to even sketch in ... people for whom religion is a matter of course, or a bit of a yawn - she presents virtually the entire school as more than averagely devout. ChubbyMonkey: Joan Baker doesn't think much of religion when she arrives, does she? There's Ruey, when she first meets the Maynards. And in Two Sams, in the dormitory on Samantha's first morning: Quote: There came the sound of girls kneeling down and Samantha followed suit. "They seem to go a lot on prayers here," she thought as she buried her face in her hands. For a few minutes there was silence and Samantha, having repeated OUR FATHER, wondered what else she could say. She could think of nothing, so she remained kneeling until the sound of the bell seemed to bring everyone to their feet. Realistically, there must have been many other girls who went along with Prayers as a part of the school routine, but who didn't have any strong personal faith. EBD just didn't choose to write about them.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
JayB wrote: Realistically, there must have been many other girls who went along with Prayers as a part of the school routine, but who didn't have any strong personal faith. EBD just didn't choose to write about them. I should have phrased that better - I know there are individual girls, usually new, who aren't bothered, many or most of whom find themselves drawn into increased seriousness about religion after a bit. The stuff I find more unrealistic is stuff like in whichever book they dedicate the chapels. and the entire school, of both varieties of Christianity and down to the youngest girls, is depicted as deeply moved and subdued for a full week afterwards. That kind of thing I think is EBD the adult convert headmistress thinking on her own behalf about how moving it would be to dedicate a newly-built chapel for a school, rather than writing from the POV of a few hundred ordinary teenagers who are obsessed with feuds, exams and motorboats. Not a criticism, just I think you can see EBD's own fervour and seriousness about religion as a convert leaking into the story here, as you could probably also say about the genuinely devout atmosphere inevitably in school prayers, which strikes every new girl - if there are lots of uninterested girls, they clearly aren't visibly looking bored! Was it Margia in the Tyrol years who's reported by Eustacia for drawing in her prayerbook? That kind of thing (ordinary bored schoolgirl behaviour) would never happen at prayers/in church in the Swiss books, which, given that 'Eustacia' was published the year of her conversion, probably blows my theory out of the water - one would expect her to be more religiously doctrinaire in 1930 than in the late 50s! I suppose we're back to the notion that her ideas became more black and white as she got older...

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
I don't think it's necessarily just that her ideas become more black and white - after all, we have characters like Naomi appearing - so much as she'd drawn a template for herself and so every book becomes rather samey. New girl arrives, new girl dislikes school, some pranks happen, new girl is subject of/ starts a vendetta, new girl nearly dies/ saves someone else's life, new girl becomes a CS girl. She doesn't leave herself a lot of scope for exploring ideas like religion. I don't think I would have expected her to be more indoctrinated closer to her conversion, I would have thought the opposite - that she'd be very open-minded. Having seen how two different faiths can affect one person deeply, I think she'd be far more open and understanding of other people's faiths.

Author:	Emma A [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
I think in the early years of the series, faith - or attending church regularly, at the very least - was generally a way of life for most people. It was only later, I think, that unfaith became something to talk about openly, and I'm not entirely surprised that Mary-Lou for example is so shocked by Naomi's profession of atheism - the closest she's ever been to unbelief is probably Mr Barrass's swearing, so hasn't ever had to think about the existence of unfaith in someone. Having grown up a Catholic but now completely agnostic, I can see why Catholicism would be appealing - the rock-hard certainty of everything, perhaps. People did like the ritual, the "decent, restrained Latin mutter" - at least before Vatican II - and its consistency. There's quite a history of writers converting to Catholicism in the early 20th century - Waugh, Belloc, Chesterton, for example - were there any reforms going on in the Church of England which might have encouraged conversion to the RC church? I don't think EBD's conversion really changes her books at all - she doesn't toe the party line, for example, and her Christianity as preached in the books is very much a philosophy that Jesus would recognise.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Quote: There's quite a history of writers converting to Catholicism in the early 20th century - Waugh, Belloc, Chesterton, for example - were there any reforms going on in the Church of England which might have encouraged conversion to the RC church? Yes, this really fascinates me. And weren't here also a lot of high church Cof E literary converts as well around the same period or slightly earlier (possibly Tennyson...? racks brains). I wonder if some of the ecumenicism in the early CS books reflects the internal reasoning that lead to EBDs conversion. She seems to be making great pains to stress the validity and, and equality of Catholicism (to CofE), which might be external evidence and justification of her own leanings in that direction... (which might have made her feel a bit guilty or traitorous)? out of interest, I also wonder if EBD maybe moved to a new parish at around the same time, 'allowing' her to convert without having to physically abandon the social group of her old church. That might explain the timing - does anyone know? I know she and her mother did move around a bit. I always thought that would be the hardest part of converting.

Author:	keren [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Joey's conversion is either mentioned or described in the fill in Joey and Patricia

Author:	JB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Tor wrote: Quote: I also wonder if EBD maybe moved to a new parish at around the same time, 'allowing' her to convert without having to physically abandon the social group of her old church. That might explain the timing - does anyone know? I know she and her mother did move around a bit. Have just checked this and in 1930, EBD was still living with her mother and stepfather in South Shields. The move to Herefordshire was probably in 1933. She was definitely there by 1935. Trying to gather my thoughts for a post on this topic .....

Author:	Tor [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Quote: Have just checked this and in 1930, EBD was still living with her mother and stepfather in South Shields ah well - bang goes that theory! Why is it that data always ruins my best ideas...?

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sorry, I meant to include this before and forgot . In the very early books, it seems to me that EBD seems to regard Catholicism as a faith associated with other countries. In one book, we're actually told that "Madge took the English girls, and Mlle [Lepattre] the Catholics," as if "English" is a synonym for "Protestant". It always strikes me as being a bit odd (it's the 1930s, not the 1630s!), especially for someone coming from the north of England where there's always been quite a high proportion of Catholics. All the British characters, and the Irish characters, seem to be Protestant at that stage - including Jack Maynard, whom we see attending a C of E service in Rivals. Around the time EBD converts, this changes. We then see several British Catholic mistresses - Nell Wilson, Con Stewart, Grace Nalder - and numerous British Catholic pupils. I might be imagining it, but I do think that there's a change around the time.

Author:	MJKB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sunglass wrote: The stuff I find more unrealistic is stuff like in whichever book they dedicate the chapels. and the entire school, of both varieties of Christianity and down to the youngest girls, is depicted as deeply moved and subdued for a full week afterwards. I could well imagine the younger girls, say from about ten to twelve or thirteen being swept along with the emotionalism surrounding the dedication. It's been my experience that that age group are often deeply impressionable.' I remember thinking I'd had a mystical experience in the Church of my convent boarding school when I was ten. I infected the other junior girls and we all round like the Children of Fatima for a couple of weeks. The older girls would tend to be more cynical but in the '60s and 70's in Ireland, at least there would have been a core of devout teenagers who I could easily imagine being affected by a moving religious ceremony.

Author:	JB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
I do like the way EBD portrays religion in the Chalet School books, with faith so much a natural and comforting part of the characters’ lives. This contrasts strongly with the more heavy-handed treatment in those non-Chalets written for a religious market that we’ve been discussing recently. It doesn’t bother me that she doesn’t deal with characters who aren’t religious or who have doubts (and perhaps this is linked to the point above). Other writers deal with this well, eg Oxenham in the book where Jen’s mother dies and Antonia Forest and the Vatican changes. I don’t know enough about the latter to see how they fit into the timeline of EBD’s work, although IIRC they feature in Forest’s later books which post-date the Chalet School. I found Jean of Storms disturbing with its treatment of Morag’s religion and, in particular, how she insisted on passing on her beliefs to the children (aged retainer or not, there’s no way I’d have stood for that). This is the only time I can think of EBD being uncharitable about anyone’s religious beliefs and, given the timing of the book, it’s hard not to imagine a link to what was happening in her own life and the difficulties she may have faced converting to Catholicism in a small and (according to Helen McClelland) not particularly tolerant community. Alison H wrote: Quote: Around the time EBD converts, this changes. We then see several British Catholic mistresses - Nell Wilson, Con Stewart, Grace Nalder - and numerous British Catholic pupils. I might be imagining it, but I do think that there's a change around the time. This is fascinating, Alison and I’d not thought of this before. I don’t think you are imagining it. In Eustacia, when the girls are away for half term, there’s this conversation about the Sunday church service which implies that two of the English girls and one American are Roman Catholic (it’s just before the “one of the roads to God” conversation): Quote: ‘I can walk quite well, thank you,’ said the Robin with a broad bream. ‘Oh, I do like this dear little place! There’s the church! Do we all go there on Sunday?’ ‘I suppose so,’ replied Miss Wilson. ‘Anne and Louise and Dorothy and you, at any rate. Joey may if she likes. I know her sister doesn’t mind.’ ‘Rather not,’ said Joey, who was striding along on the other side of the Robin. ‘She has more sense than to be narrow-minded about that! What about Elsie and Vi and Ruth and Eustacia, though?’ ‘Elsie may go if she chooses. Her mother has sent written permission’ replied the mistress. ‘I don’t’ think we’ll take Violet or Ruth. I don’t know about Eustacia.’ Sunglass wrote: Quote: Was it Margia in the Tyrol years who's reported by Eustacia for drawing in her prayerbook? At infant school, we had an end of day prayer and one of my classmates reported me to the teacher for having my eyes open during the prayer. She didn’t understand why the rest of the class laughed.

Author:	andydaly [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sunglass wrote: Alison H wrote: we're not told how Len and Reg planned to deal with the issue of being of different religions. Does this mean it's not too much to hope that someone will bounce up at the wedding ceremony and shout 'I declare an impediment'?

Author:	The stuffer [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Quote: At infant school, we had an end of day prayer and one of my classmates reported me to the teacher for having my eyes open during the prayer. She didn’t understand why the rest of the class laughed. When I was at infant school we were told that when we "did" prayers we had to keep our palms pressed together, with our fingers pointing to heaven. If you didn't point them to heaven, your prayer might hit somebody!! Of course, I never ever tried to aim my prayers at anyone. O no. Not me.

Author:	Josette [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Sunglass wrote: Quote: I definitely see the dire Morag in Jean of Storms as representing something of EBD's own feelings about hardline Calvinism - she's such a caricature, and it's the only time I can think of that EBD ever represents Christianity of any stripe in a bad light! The vicar's wife in Jo Returns gets a bit of a hard time - she is an interfering busybody. (A bit OT maybe, but this also made me think of Joyce Linton - never a very sympathetic character, and one of the few not totally redeemed by the CS, yet she married a vicar, which I seem to remember raised a few eyebrows among the staff!)

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Josette wrote: Sunglass wrote: Quote: I definitely see the dire Morag in Jean of Storms as representing something of EBD's own feelings about hardline Calvinism - she's such a caricature, and it's the only time I can think of that EBD ever represents Christianity of any stripe in a bad light! The vicar's wife in Jo Returns gets a bit of a hard time - she is an interfering busybody. Plus, as well as interfering, she's pretty much the only character we see in the CS series who is (implicitly) suspicious of sects other than the C of E. I mean, she doesn't express any hostility towards Catholics or anything, but I think something of the 'Oh, Catholic - I see' is implied in the conversation where she finds out that everyone but Sybil goes into the town to the nearest Catholic church. Maybe it's more just 'placing' them, or slight busybodyish resentment that because they are not C of E, they are not in her husband's parish and are therefore legitimately beyond her busybodyish 'control' in some way. Whereas we always hear that the CS chaplains like Mr Eastley and whoever the Catholic one is at that time, get on like a house on fire, with no sense of sectarian division. No, actually, I do think that there's definitely a slight unspoken suspicion of Catholics when the 'Sodger' is shown thinking of most of the Many Bushes group as 'foreigners'. (In the CS world, this is always a marker of insularity, as with the Saints when they arrive at the Tiernsee - even though one supposes 'foreign spy' fears would flourish during the war.) Does she also remark on the number of children in a way that suggests something other than admiration? (Now quite liking the idea of an alternate storyline where the Sodger suspects the Quartette of being Nazi spies who have borrowed dozens of children as a disguise... )

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
To be fair, I think that during the War a lot of people would have been suspicious if a group including a lot of "foreigners", especially if they realised that some of them had Austrian names, had suddenly appeared in their midst. I love the idea of her thinking they were all spies! When Elaine and Joey argue about the collection money in Rivals, Elaine seems to regard anything non-Anglican as foreign - as Josette said, the Saints are shown as being insular.

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: Oh sure, all I meant was that, despite the fact we're in a small gossippy village in the middle of nowhere in wartime, it's only the dislikeable C of E clergy wife who seems to find them suspicious, which seemed an interesting choice of joke villain for EBD Not only is there a house full of "foreigners", their dog is poisoned and there's Joey's attack on the burglar. Surely all pretty suspicious in a small, gossipy village in wartime?

Author:	JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
It's a long time since I've read Rescue, so I don't remember the specifics. But I'd imagine, rather than EBD specifically deciding to present an Anglican unsympathetically, it's more that the vicar's wife is a stock character in fiction set in villages from that era. See Agatha Christie and DLS for a whole range of vicars' wives. EBD could have the vicar's wife calling on Jo et al without having to give any explanation of who she was or why she was calling. Anyone else would need some background sketched in. She does redress the balance later with Mrs Gay, who is brisk, efficient, kindhearted.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
JB wrote: Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: Oh sure, all I meant was that, despite the fact we're in a small gossippy village in the middle of nowhere in wartime, it's only the dislikeable C of E clergy wife who seems to find them suspicious, which seemed an interesting choice of joke villain for EBD Not only is there a house full of "foreigners", their dog is poisoned and there's Joey's attack on the burglar. Surely all pretty suspicious in a small, gossipy village in wartime? And then people in huge cars with chauffeurs start turning up, finding "Mrs Doctor Maynard" sat on a gate Oh, and mysterious, handsome men keep going in to visit Phoebe Wychcote (and the vicar's wife is sure she's up to something funny, there's something bad about that whole family) Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Had it been an Enid Blyton book, Reg and a few of his mates would have taken it upon themselves to investigate, in a Five Find-Outers ish sort of way . Reg would then have made friends with someone like Superintendent Jenks, rather than with the Maynards, and he and Len would never have met again ... oh happy thought!

Author:	JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Quote: Reg would then have made friends with someone like Superintendent Jenks, rather than with the Maynards, and he and Len would never have met again ... oh happy thought! Reg would have become a policeman rather than a doctor - but would he have been the opera-loving Inspector who solves the mystery or the dim sidekick? Or just ended up doing the legwork for Miss Marple?

Author:	ClaireK [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Alison H wrote: To be fair, I think that during the War a lot of people would have been suspicious if a group including a lot of "foreigners", especially if they realised that some of them had Austrian names, had suddenly appeared in their midst. I love the idea of her thinking they were all spies! But there were loads of Allied troops from Europe stationed in remote parts of GB during the war - often doing things like Commando training. Anyone classed as "an enemy alien" was interned - as EBD mentions - and that included many Italians who had been living here for years. "Foreigners" were much more the norm than you might think. ClaireK ClaireK

Author:	JB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
I'm skimming through New Chalet School, writing the quiz for Saturday's North West meeting ( ) and found this quote about prayers: Quote: One of two of the Chalet School staff were there too, but the majority, like the girls, were Catholics.

Author:	MJKB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
EBD's ecuminism and internationalism were remarkable for the time. I cannot imagine that level of openness being tolerated in Ireland in the 30's 40's and 50's. Someone brought up the point about Vatican 2 changes not being aired and I just wonder if that was because, according to CS time, the series ended with the school still in the '50s.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
MJKB wrote: EBD's ecuminism and internationalism were remarkable for the time. I cannot imagine that level of openness being tolerated in Ireland in the 30's 40's and 50's. Someone brought up the point about Vatican 2 changes not being aired and I just wonder if that was because, according to CS time, the series ended with the school still in the '50s. It's probably why, the Vatican II was never addressed. I googled the subject when trying to research this topic and something someone said on one of the website was Antonia Forest addressed this issued with her characters. She had Miranda being Jewish at a Christain school and dealing with being part of a nativity play and all that means and Patrick questions the Vatican II changes and yet EBD despite her egalitarienism with religion, doesn't address these issues at all. And except for Naomi and a few comments with new girls EBD doesn't really discuss religion not being accepted. It would have been interesting to see Naomi develop her beliefs of at least sort all that out after she had been fixed or see the viewpoints of someone who remains unreligious and how they feel about the amount of religion that was a part of the average day at school. I do think EBD was well ahead of her time. I still to this day hear anti-catholic remarks.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Fiona Mc wrote: It's probably why, the Vatican II was never addressed. I googled the subject when trying to research this topic and something someone said on one of the website was Antonia Forest addressed this issue with her characters. ... It would have been interesting to see Naomi develop her beliefs of at least sort all that out after she had been fixed or see the viewpoints of someone who remains unreligious and how they feel about the amount of religion that was a part of the average day at school. You're right of course that AF was another Catholic convert, though I don't know whether her family had been in any way orthodox Jewish. But she's interested in looking at religious difference - devout and uninterested, Jewish and Christian, Anglican and Catholic, trad Catholic vs post Vat II reforms etc. Or little things like differences within Anglicanism, like Mrs Marlow skipping Matins when the ASB is used, or the devout Anglican Ann refusing to let her sister use her bike to go to her first Catholic mass. Or Patrick being chivvied at his Catholic school for being 'trad'. Whereas EBD's religious agenda is really in smoothing out doctrinal etc differences between Catholics and Protestants - apart from the mentions of separation at prayers, and a scatter of tiny things like the triplets' godparents, you'd have no sense at all that there were differences. That must surely be in part behind her decision not just to skip narrating Joey's conversion, which is natural enough in a school story, but - which is odder for me - never even explicitly tell us it has happened. I know Vat II doesn't fit into the timeline of the CS - although the reforms had been being discussed for a long time before the actual council. (Some Catholics, for instance, had started using artificial birth control in the genuine belief that it would be allowed by Vat II when it happened. But again, can't imagine the CS girls who were Catholics discussing that! Though I imagine in (presumably separate?) RE the potential Church reforms would have been something they discussed.) Come to think of it, we see Hilda teaching the gospel of Luke in 'Scripture' lessons - presumably these would have been shared? - but the girls must also have had some form of regular religion lessons, although there's never a reference to who teaches them...? Unless those are delegated to the school chaplains...?

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
There's certainly no mention of separate religious studies/scripture/divinity lessons for Catholics and Protestants. I wouldn't have thought that the chaplains (insofar as they had school chaplains) would've had time to teach at the school ... I'm just imagining them suggesting that the girls attend Sunday school or confirmation lessons or whatever at the church with the other local children, and someone throwing up their hands in horror in the same way they did at the suggestion of going to the village school . I would think that Hilda's scripture lessons were the only ones at the school, and that anything else was left for parents/guardians to arrange in the holidays, but that's just a guess. New girls are usually asked whether they're Catholic or "Church of England", rather than Catholic or "Protestant" - which is odd, especially coming from EBD who was from South Shields where I'd think Methodism would be quite strong. Just trying to think if we ever see someone who isn't English being asked this, but I don't think we do. However, when Joey has the argument with Elaine in Rivals, she points out that several of the girls who attend the Protestant services are Lutherans or Calvinists, and on school trips etc all Protestant girls attend the services at the local Lutheran or Calvinist church. Sorry, the point of that waffle is that there seems to be some inconsistency over differences within Protestantism, and how ecumenical the service for non-Catholics was or wasn't.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EBD's Conversion
Quote: Whereas EBD's religious agenda is really in smoothing out doctrinal etc differences between Catholics and Protestants - apart from the mentions of separation at prayers, and a scatter of tiny things like the triplets' godparents, you'd have no sense at all that there were differences This always strikes me as one of the most perplexing aspects of EBDs religious conversion: I get (and admire) the Antonia Forest type of convert - interested and thoughtful about the reasons behind religious/doctrinal difference, with a concomitant desire for the exploration of those differences. I also get (but don't admire) the more strident type of convert who is often very vocal about why their choice is right. EBD seems so keen on stressing the similarity of each Christian denomination, that one wonders why she felt the need to convert at all. And it must have been a fairly tough choice to make at the time - I can't see her doing it for a whim or because it was fashionable or something (though I did wonder this for a bit, as conversion seems to be common among literary types at the time). But maybe it was just simple something that was more primal/emotional in EBDs case, which she couldn't express.