The CBB :: View topic - Doctors: Jem Russell

And Jane, Dr Jem really knows. He said, 'Tell Jane that though it will probably be very slow, I think myself her mother will pull through'. And he knows!"

I have only ever read the paperbacks so don't know if Madge ever meets her inlaws?

I think the bossy/I know best side comes from his doctoring. At that time, doctors were seen as gods by their patients, and they certainly ruled the hospitals. Even nowadays, you can see some doctors who don't like to be questioned and think that they know best.

but I (still) find him horrible to Joey when she and Freida 'find' Margot,

I object more to his treatment of Frieda than Joey. He embarrasses her horribly.

. I've said it elsewhere, but I (still) find him horrible to Joey when she and Freida 'find' Margot, and when Madge says of him that 'he can be nasty' to (?with) Joey when he likes. I know that others disagree with me on this, especially with regard to those two incidences but, for me, his whole character is coloured by these responses.

He does also seem to be the very 'typical' 'old school' doctor of the time, and this I find very unpleasant too.

I've never had a problem with Jem being a "masterful" doctor because I've never yet met a doctor who wasn't bossy. Doesn't it kind of go with the job? Never met a non-bossy Nurse either.

I was reminded of Jem's attitude over the 'finding Margot' incident reading the bit of Theodora where Ted, Len and Ros come into contact with the peasant child infected with smallpox. Again, there's a real reason for Phil Graves to be concerned - it could be an epidemic - just as there if for Jem to be concerned over the discovery of Margot, but Phil Graves shouts and snaps at the three completely blameless girls as if they've done something wrong in happening to pass the hut and approach a crying child (to the point where responsible Len, who knows him well, is actually frightened into silence!) Unlike Joey and Frieda, they haven't gone off with a stranger, and they've done nothing at all wrong - no CS girl or mistress would ignore a child in distress! So I think this is just the way EBD thinks a 'masterful' doctor behaves under pressure, with lots of grim-mouthed silent treatment interspersed with army-style barked orders!

Does Jem ever get a break? I know that he goes off on lots of jollies ... er, sorry, I mean conferences, but I can't recall any mention of him just going on a family holiday with Madge and the children.

In Jem's particular case, it must have felt like an unreal situation when Margot reappeared, presumably after he had given up hope of ever seeing her again, and concern about Joey and Frieda possibly having gone off with someone unknown on top of years of wondering what happened to his sister must have just pushed him too far.

'Sorry I can't stop: but if we're to see into this fairy-tale the seem to have unearthed ...'

'Margot - if it is Margot, and not an impister - made her own bed when she ran away with Venables,' said Jem curtly, not too pleased to find that Joey had broadcast the tale already. 'If she has found it uncomfortable, that was her own lookout.' ...

Jem looked at her with compressed lips ...

'Freida, you might try to hold your tongue about all this - if you can! I'm not anxious to have my private affairs cried from the housetops, you know.'
With this somewhat bitter remark, he marched Jo off, leaving Freida scarlet and Kurt not very sure what to say ...

Jo cast doubtful glances at her brother in law as she hurried along by his side. She knew he was angry, and racked her brains to think what esle she could have done in the circumstances in which Daisy's hail had plunged them ...
'So I am 'pretty mad', as you call it,' he told her. 'Really Jo ... to go off like that with a perfect stranger! You must be crazy!' ...

The "impostor" line is certainly very odd - he's a doctor, not a member of the Russian imperial family!

Jem is consistently more concerned about his own standing and how it will make people view him.

MJKB, I love that story about the consultant who thought you were standing up as a sign of respect - my mind is boggling. :shock:

Jem was obviously very upset by the whole Margot situation: we see when they do meet up how much he cares about her... The whole episode's very emotional: he practically runs to the hotel, even though Margot wasn't going anywhere and running through busy city streets must have attracted attention, and then he keeps hugging and kissing her even though he's definitely not a huggy-kissy kind of person.

he doesn't want to get his hopes up that it might actually be his sister, so he has to keep inventing possibilities as to why it might not be, so that he won't be disappointed if it isn't

given the circumstances, not least because he knows, as the girls don't, that they have potentially put themselves in great danger and he has to rapidly assess the situation and make snap decisions to minimise that risk.

I will say that it must speak volumes for EBD's writing that we can have such a long debate about this!

Does nobody but me think that this is a perfectly natural reaction to have? He's been called away to meet his long-lost sister - and he doesn't want to get his hopes up that it might actually be his sister, so he has to keep inventing possibilities as to why it might not be, so that he won't be disappointed if it isn't - and then when he gets there he discovers that his business has been spread already. So he a) has the anxiety of a big meeting with someone who might or might not be his long lost sister and b) the anxiety which would have come with Joey going missing. He's had the journey down to Innsbruck, which would have taken a while, to work himself up over it, and now he's cross and bothered by it all, and not in the mood for being tactful.

It's very much how I'd react!

I think that Llywela meant when Phil Graves has to deal with the smallpox episode, which obviously would need snap decisions as they are now potentially contagious, and a risk to themselves and others. If not, though, please ignore me :oops:

Ok, that may have been a bit much. :oops:

Admittedly I'm not sure there's any evidence for most of that in books (though from his delight at finding her and her children, I think it's safe to assume they were close at one stage in their lives), but that's how I've always thought of their back story, for some reason

I think that while Jem is rude to Frieda and Kurt, it's reasonable (given the times, or even now?) that he's angry with Joey for discussing his private family business. EBD had put up with (and apparently been very silent about) the 'scandal' in her own family and maybe she'd always hoped for a Jem and Margot style reunion in her own life - and hated the gossip that she felt followed her about?

Ok, that may have been a bit much. Admittedly I'm not sure there's any evidence for most of that in books (though from his delight at finding her and her children, I think it's safe to assume they were close at one stage in their lives), but that's how I've always thought of their back story, for some reason.

... what is the problem is that there is nothing in the author's depiction to suggest that she considered that he was in the wrong. That's where it all falls apart. Not that he acted like that - we're only human - but that EBD didn't consider that actually his behaviour was wrong. All she needed to do was insert one line in, after he had met up with Margot - basically with him apologising to Joey and asking her to pass on those apologies to Frieda. But she didn't because, in her world, doctors are always right, even when they're wrong.

We're told that Jack and Joey's "parenting" was influenced by Lydia's mistakes: I wonder to what extent Jem was affected by his own parents' harshness towards Margot. What would he have done if Sybil, Josette or Ailie had brought home an "unsuitable" boyfriend? David becomes a doctor and Sybil and Josette both marry men who, although they live on the other side of the world, are from the right background. The same happens with the three eldest Bettany children. It would be interesting to see how the clan would have reacted had one of their children done something less conventional.

. He treats Sybil with extreme harshness in the immediate aftermath of Josette's accident. So I can imagine him behaving with the harshness and lack of empathy if he strongly disapproved of a future son-in-law.

his deep disgust at his daughter’s doings had nearly broken Margot’s heart. For a full fortnight he had refused to have anything to do with her. Margot adored her father and his coldness had made her realise more fully than ever how far she had fallen.

I think Jem was justified to a certain extent at being angry for Joey and Frieda for discussing about Margot to all and sundry ... I could understand why Jem felt the way he did about Joey and Frieda discussing all this with the Mensch/Von Eshenau's, however innocently. Jem has experienced first hand the extent gossip can go ...

However, much he may have been disappointed by all their actions, he did still love them and tried to keep in touch with them all.

'Margot - if it is Margot ... - made her bed when she ran away with Venables ...'
'If she has found it uncomfortable, that was her own lookout.'

MJKB wrote:

The thing is, to go back to one of the points made earlier, I don't think EBD thinks Jem treated Sybil with undue harshness after Josette's accident - I think she thinks (as with his response to Joey and Frieda after they meet Margot) that this is appropriate Head of Household behaviour. We see Jack, another Big Doctor and father, take a similar approach to Margot after the Ted incident:

Quote:

I think that's probably true, but even so some of Jem's behaviour (like towards Sybil) still seems excessive. Did EBD actually know very many men, do we know, or were most of her friends women?
I think that's probably true, but even so some of Jem's behaviour (like towards Sybil) still seems excessive. Did EBD actually know very many men, do we know, or were most of her friends women?

Interesting point - we don't actually see Jem having that much interaction with children except in a medical way, though most of the CS girls seemed to have liked him. I can see him having far too high expectations of little children - like holding Sybil completely responsible for Josette's accident. But I still don't think that excuses the way he treated her and surely if he'd really wanted to he could have made the effort to get to know his own children better.

I hope this doesn't come across as cruel, but the way EBD portrays her leading 'doctor' hero reminds me of the way the nuns in my covent school put men up on a pedestal.

MJKB wrote:

I hope this doesn't come across as cruel, but the way EBD portrays her leading 'doctor' hero reminds me of the way the nuns in my covent school put men up on a pedestal.

Or maybe Madge and Joey both actually longed for an Alpha Male in their lives precisely because none of the men they knew until they met Jem fitted into that category :wink:

Imagine if Jem had been Madge's twin brother

'He's a man, and can look after himself,' said Grizel wisely.

, the doctor took them to a pretty, old-fashioned house, with a red lamp over the door and ushered them into a large room, obviously a man's room for there were none of the prettinesses that show the presence of a woman. A huge fire of logs burned on the hearth and a bowl stuffed full of chrysanthemums on the big solid table was the only attempt at beautifying it....

He heaved a sigh as he went back to the car and got into it to drive back to his lonely house. Somehow, he felt, as he had never felt before, the want of a woman to sit facing him as he read a new book on pulmonary complaints.
"A man needs a wife," he thought, as he laid it aside at one o'clock, with three pages only read and went off to bed.

Jem employed Andreas as a manservant (always makes me think of Phileas Fogg and Passepartout!), but I'm not sure that Andreas would have done things like cooking and cleaning once they'd settled down at Die Rosen. I can imagine Jem, Jack, Ted and Andreas living at Die Rosen in some sort of Men Behaving Badly state of mayhem before Madge and Marie moved in :lol:

I think that EBD's views are very much of her day; especially as, correct me if I'm wrong!, I have the idea that at the time men wouldn't be taught the domestic skills that women were, such as cooking/cleaning/mending etc, and so they would need someone to come in and do that for them - esp. if, like Jem, they had an incredibly busy professional life! Though I know that this isn't the case for everyone, and some men could have survived quite well without either wife or housekeeper; my father, for example, can still sew better than me :roll:

...and I know that there are many men who live perfectly well without help from women. It's just that I don't know of any ...

I think EBD would've wanted to find a husband for Madge anyway, but I can't decide which came first, the San idea or the husband idea :lol:

I think Jem was the intended husband but he's referred to as Mr Russell at first; then EBD probably cast around, looking for a justification for him to live and work in the area. I expect the EJO books came to mind and fitted her purpose.

Is he a surgeon at that point? (Shades of The Go-Between) Then he would be a Mr. I think when Joey's writing prize is sent to him, his name on the envelope has F.R.C.S. after it.

However he is practising on the continent where they don't differentiate between Dr and Mr but all use the title Dr. Though now I think about it that could explain why at first he is Mr as he is a surgeon but once he has opened the San he changes it to Dr to be acceptable to the European medical profession.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Doctors: Jem Russell
Sorry for posting this late Jem Russell enters the series in 'School At the Chalet', towards the end of the book when he rescues the girls from a train accident. At the time, the reader learns very little about him, but when he appears again in the next book, 'Jo of the Chalet School', he appears frequently to help and advise over different matters and disasters. The book concludes with Madge announcing her intention of marrying him and helping him to start a Sanatorium on the Sonnalpe. The reader learns more of Jem's family with the appearance of his long lost sister Margot, and her two children Daisy and Primula, who join the rapidly expanding nursery at Die Rosen - along with Dick's children and Madge and Jem's two children, David and Sybil. They live happily in the mountains until the Anschluss, when they are forced to flee. After this Jem tends to fade from the series, as Jack Maynard marries Joey and becomes the leading doctor in the series. During the war he gains a baronetcy and becomes Sir Jem; after this he moves first to Canada and then to Australia to attend various conferences. What do you think of Jem? Did you like him? Would you have wanted to marry him? Do you think that the reader gets to see a lot of Jem, or does he remain a 'closed book'? What of Madge and Jem's marriage; do we see enough of it to understand it? What do you think of it? How, if at all, did it impact on the series? What do you think of what we learn of Jem's family thanks to Margot finding him again? Was it plausible? Finally, what do you think of him as a doctor? How does he fit in with other doctors of the series? In some ways he is very much the leading doctor of the series, as he is the first we are introduced to and gets to marry Madge. Do you think that he sets a precedent for other doctors that EBD introduces to the series? Please discuss these and any other issues relating to Jem below. Idea from Elle

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think we're certainly supposed to find Jem very attractive. He's rich, masterful, an excellent rescuer, a 'big doctor' and intended to be the perfect marital 'reward' for plucky Madge who, like Simone and other mistresses later on in the series, is 'too sweet to teach her whole life'. I do quite like him in the very early days - not so much the rescuing (how is it that he seems to smell danger involving anything to do with the CS from miles away and bobs up helpfully in time to do some dosing and putting to bed?), but the way in which he obviously pretends to be riveted by Joey's attempt at an Elsie book, and keeps dropping in casually and asking Madge to read him a chapter! The bit where Madge reads him the scene about Harold swimming across the lake on the Sabbath, with them both laughing at the inconsistencies, is one of EBD's more unlikely but endearing courtship scenes! (Leaving aside why he was lugging the entire Elsie series around the Tyrol in the first place...?) But I start to get a bit cross with him when he starts doing lit crit on it and prophesying a writing career for Joey on the basis of one fairy tale in the Chaletian and one fragment of fan fiction! It's the 'masterful' pontificating side of him I can't stand. I don't care for him at all as a husband, or as a brother-in-law - enormously bossy and cocksure, with far too much deference from other people. But EBD clearly intends us to find that attractive in him, even if I personally think he would be improved if someone put him in his place at regular intervals. I think Jack is supposed to be a more modern, egalitarian version of him, with a lot of the bossiness toned down.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think Jem is very underrated . He's one of the world's leading experts - to the extent that he's invited to conferences across the world and honoured with a baronetcy - on what was at the time probably the biggest threat to health in the world. The focus on the books is - obviously! - on the school and the females, so I don't think it ever fully comes across just how great Jem's achievements are. Other good points - doesn't object to taking on Madge's sister, nieces, nephews and wards; tells Madge, who is stressing about her weight (in Joey & Co), that he likes her the way he is; is very sweet in Lintons when he's so desperate to see Margot that he literally runs through the streets of Innsbruck to get to her hotel; is also quite sweet in Head Girl when saying how pleased he is that Marie and Andreas have got together. Unfortunately, he does tend to be too bossy and masterful and to take over. He was probably brought up to think that that was what the man of the house was meant to do, and I'm sure that EBD meant it to be a positive trait, but it does get rather too much, e.g. when he doses Madge when Sybil's kidnapped. I'm sure EBD meant him to be the model of a wonderful husband and for us to think that Madge was very lucky to get him , but he really is too much at times! I'd love to know more about his life before he met Madge, and I think it's a shame that we're told so little about it. How (I worry about these things ) did having the sort of parents who'd disown their daughter for marrying an unsuitable man affect him, and what was he doing during the Great War? When and where and how did he learn to speak Afrikaans? What part of the country did he come from, and what was his social background? We know a bit about Jack's background, but we know virtually nothing about Jem's, and IMHO it's a big hole in the series! Long Friday afternoon waffle there ...

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I've always liked Jem and it's never bothered me that he's so bossy. I imagine Madge could wind him round her little finger anyway so she let him bluster away so he could let off steam! As Alison says, he's a world-famous expert, which is something to be proud of and as such, particularly bearing in mind his generation, he'd probably fit the old medics gag: Q:What's the difference between God and a consultant? A:God doesn't think he's a doctor. (Apologies to any consultants, btw!) My favourite book has always been Jo to the Rescue and I love the way he teases Jo and the other girls in it. And if he's a bit bossy in that book, well - it was the middle of the war and they were a long way from home, plus he'd known them since they were very young, so it's reasonable for him to be concerned, I'd have thought.

Author:	Amanda M [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I do like Jem, especially in the earlier books. I think the fact that he does have flaws to his character makes him more interesting to me, as it makes his character more rounded. Even though he does have his doctor/bossy head on at times, at other times you see him quite vulnerable, eg when Jo almost dies after falling through the ice. I agree with sealpuppy, that I actually think in Madge and Jem's relationship she's actually in charge, but doesn't let him know that I think the bossy/I know best side comes from his doctoring. At that time, doctors were seen as gods by their patients, and they certainly ruled the hospitals. Even nowadays, you can see some doctors who don't like to be questioned and think that they know best.

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Author:	emma t [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I have always liked Jem; he seemed to slot very easily into their lives the courtship was sweet, and he did not interfere too much with the way Madge ran the school - they all seemed to like him, even when he made Joey go to bed after one or two incidents in the early books. He is trying to do his best, and it's great the way he was with Joey - looking after her health and so on - a bit coninsidental that Madge should therefore marry a doctor when she has a delicte sister! Did she ever think of this, I wonder? He is a brilliant doctor; though we only really hear about 'cases' in passing conversations that he's gone to attend to. How did he become so far advanced in his position to Sir? We do not hear of him studying to become a consultant, etc, or maybe I am going far from the point here He is pretty strict and can be quite nasty when he likes, especially when Joey finds Margot - he is quite scathing to Jo as they go to the hotel. But on the other hand, he is kind in the way he does take his sister and her children on; but then he would not want to see them hard up and on the streets, as it would not be in him to be so cruel, not matter if his parents disowned Margot becuse she married beneath her? I would have liked more history on this, and how it all came about - their reactions, etc. Anyone fancy writing a drabble?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think it says more about EBD's touching faith in the powers of medicine than anything else, and I do find the way in which other characters revere Jem's slightest statement as if it was Holy Writ a bit funny at times. Like when Jane Carew's mother is badly hurt in a car crash in Australia, and Jem goes to the hospital after she's been operated on and phones to CS to report- which is obviously hugely kind of him. But I can't help laughing at the way in which - despite the fact that he's a TB specialist, not a trauma surgeon, hasn't treated Jane's mother at all himself, and has possibly not even been allowed to examine her, as she's only just recovered consciousness a few minutes before he phones to Gornetz Platz, Hilda still tells Jane Quote: And Jane, Dr Jem really knows. He said, 'Tell Jane that though it will probably be very slow, I think myself her mother will pull through'. And he knows!" I mean, even excellent doctors - and clearly Jem is - get things wrong, or lose patients in their own field of expertise through misdiagnosis or human error. But, even more than that, EBD clearly never intends us to question Jem's judgement even once over the course of the series, whether it's medicine, the Anschluss, or his literary critical efforts on Joey's Elsie book! I think I prefer the slightly tormented (if equally bossy and rude) Jem that is revealed when Margot is found - one at least gets to guess at guilt, anger and regret etc.

Author:	Carrie A [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think that EBD's treatment of Jem is probably quite true to life for the 1920's/1930's. He is portrayed as the capable, manly being who is ordained by God to smooth the way for the little woman. I find his discussions of how he will bring his children up to be quite telling - obviously he was brought up in the same way, ready to 'render absolute obedience' to his parents, which is presumably why he followed their lead regarding Margot. I too would like to know more about his war service, he is clearly much older than Madge, but never seems quite as old as the Robin's father, Ted, who we know did have a war record. I always imagine him to be about 10 years older than Madge which would make him around 35 when he first appears in the series. He must have served in World War One, unless he was a conscientious objector? Could Dr's be conchies as well? However, Jem never refers to his time 'in France'. I have only ever read the paperbacks so don't know if Madge ever meets her inlaws?

Author:	ammonite [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Maybe he served as a doctor during the war posted in South Africa - (In order to learn Afrikaans!) It would also account for the general medicine knowledge that he displays and which he obviously insits his staff maintain. I always felt his reaction to Jo and Margot was correct. Presumably Jo shouldn't have been speaking to strangers, he knows that Margot has small kids and no husband with her - so he will be worried about her, for her and worried about getting his hopes up, after all he won't have met her for years. With the situation with Jane Carew's parents, it is possible he was paraphrasing another doctor's word into his opinion and this presumably would be more comforting for those in Switzerland than that of an unknown doctor.

Author:	Nightwing [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I don't always like Jem, but I feel like he's a very realistic character - yes, he can be overbearing, bossy, and yes, in real life I'd almost certainly want to kick him most of the time (!), but considering he builds up the Sanatorium, pretty much single-handedly, from scratch, he needs to have those traits if he's going to be successful. He's also very human - sometimes his behaviour is unlikeable, sometimes it's admirable, sometimes it's downright sweet. He's definitely EBD's proto-doctor, but there's a lot more to him (good and bad) than just a Victorian-patriarchal-head-of-household figure.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Carrie A wrote: I have only ever read the paperbacks so don't know if Madge ever meets her inlaws? Jem's parents are both dead by the time Margot turns up in Lintons. I'm not sure that we're ever told that they'd died before we meet Jem, but I've always assumed that they had, and that he used his inheritance to set up the San. His mysterious Elsie-reading aunts are never mentioned, but then Madge and Joey's aunts also vanish off the face of the earth fairly early on. I think Jem is quite sweet sometimes - with Margot, and with Madge over her weight. He also makes a remark in Joey & Co about how Sybil was so pretty that all the boys'd be after her, which is one of those cringeworthy embarrassing dad remarks that are sweet at the same time. & I really feel for him in Highland Twins when he's devastated by the news of Jack's presumed death but then realises that he's expected to be the strong one and that he can't just sit and try to deal with his own grief.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
It's mentioned that Jem is 48 in Jo to the Rescue which is set in the summer of 1943 when Stephen is a baby and Joey is coming up to 25 in the November of that year. I think that means Jem is around 36 when they first meet, Jo being 12 then.

Author:	MJKB [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Amanda M wrote: I think the bossy/I know best side comes from his doctoring. At that time, doctors were seen as gods by their patients, and they certainly ruled the hospitals. Even nowadays, you can see some doctors who don't like to be questioned and think that they know best. I think there are some nowadays that still fit that description! I'm agnostic about Jem. I like him in the early books, particularly in Jo of. In School at he comes across as quite boyish, more Dick's age than late thirties. It's when he talks about 'instant obedience' that I actively dislike him, though as other people have said, he may be thtat he comes across as being a little pompous and victorian, and Madge is the real power in the relationship. Actually, there aren't too many men who would agree to take responsiblity for other people's children in the immediate aftermath of their wedding. It's a bit of a Bettany take over once the vows have been made.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I really, really, really do not like Jem. I can't get over his rather roughshod way of speaking to people sometimes, even when he is nicer. I've said it elsewhere, but I (still) find him horrible to Joey when she and Freida 'find' Margot, and when Madge says of him that 'he can be nasty' to (?with) Joey when he likes. I know that others disagree with me on this, especially with regard to those two incidences but, for me, his whole character is coloured by these responses. He does also seem to be the very 'typical' 'old school' doctor of the time, and this I find very unpleasant too.

Author:	MJKB [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
julieanne1811 wrote: but I (still) find him horrible to Joey when she and Freida 'find' Margot, I object more to his treatment of Frieda than Joey. He embarrasses her horribly. Joey is better able to take it, and she even manages to answer him back. Frieda, on the other hand, has the ground taken from under her. She must have felt so dreadful to have to take such a snub from the almighty Jem, adn he msut have known that she could not answer him back.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
MJKB wrote: I object more to his treatment of Frieda than Joey. He embarrasses her horribly. Yes - you are absolutely right! I think the thing with Joey is more long-term and consistent though.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
julieanne1811 wrote: . I've said it elsewhere, but I (still) find him horrible to Joey when she and Freida 'find' Margot, and when Madge says of him that 'he can be nasty' to (?with) Joey when he likes. I know that others disagree with me on this, especially with regard to those two incidences but, for me, his whole character is coloured by these responses. He does also seem to be the very 'typical' 'old school' doctor of the time, and this I find very unpleasant too. I was reminded of Jem's attitude over the 'finding Margot' incident reading the bit of Theodora where Ted, Len and Ros come into contact with the peasant child infected with smallpox. Again, there's a real reason for Phil Graves to be concerned - it could be an epidemic - just as there if for Jem to be concerned over the discovery of Margot, but Phil Graves shouts and snaps at the three completely blameless girls as if they've done something wrong in happening to pass the hut and approach a crying child (to the point where responsible Len, who knows him well, is actually frightened into silence!) Unlike Joey and Frieda, they haven't gone off with a stranger, and they've done nothing at all wrong - no CS girl or mistress would ignore a child in distress! So I think this is just the way EBD thinks a 'masterful' doctor behaves under pressure, with lots of grim-mouthed silent treatment interspersed with army-style barked orders!

Author:	RubyGates [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I've never had a problem with Jem being a "masterful" doctor because I've never yet met a doctor who wasn't bossy. Doesn't it kind of go with the job? Never met a non-bossy Nurse either.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I am a non-bossy nurse ... I had a reputation for being very laid-back. As long as everything got done and was, first of all safe, and then the patients were comfortable, I never worried about how things were done ...

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
RubyGates wrote: I've never had a problem with Jem being a "masterful" doctor because I've never yet met a doctor who wasn't bossy. Doesn't it kind of go with the job? Never met a non-bossy Nurse either. In fairness now, there are a few! Actually, I was in casualty recently, having been 'phoned at 12.30 on Saturday night by my 16 year old daughter - such a fright, but thankfully nothing too serious - and there was a young male doctor on duty. He was really, really nice, both to Maggie, her friend and to us. He checked everything out thoroughly and was so helpful. Hopefully, the system won't get to him in the future, and that he doesn't become a fat cat consultant with a ego the size of several mountain ranges. There are a few medics, doctors and nurses, in my family and they're all terrific. However, I have met some pompous ahs in time, including one who, when I rose to show him my then two year old daughter who'd been in a slight accident, flapped his hand at me and told me to "sit down, sit down, woman."He honestly thought I was standing up out of 'respect' for him!

Author:	2nd Gen Fan [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: I was reminded of Jem's attitude over the 'finding Margot' incident reading the bit of Theodora where Ted, Len and Ros come into contact with the peasant child infected with smallpox. Again, there's a real reason for Phil Graves to be concerned - it could be an epidemic - just as there if for Jem to be concerned over the discovery of Margot, but Phil Graves shouts and snaps at the three completely blameless girls as if they've done something wrong in happening to pass the hut and approach a crying child (to the point where responsible Len, who knows him well, is actually frightened into silence!) Unlike Joey and Frieda, they haven't gone off with a stranger, and they've done nothing at all wrong - no CS girl or mistress would ignore a child in distress! So I think this is just the way EBD thinks a 'masterful' doctor behaves under pressure, with lots of grim-mouthed silent treatment interspersed with army-style barked orders! I actually find this one of the more realistic aspects of EBD's writing. While we all know it shouldn't happen, there are many people in this world who take out their own stress and frustration on whoever is handy. I know a few classic examples of this myself - but they do usually apologise afterwards! Although EBD doesn't see this as a character flaw in either Jem or Phil, the flaws are quite realistic. People with important jobs do sometimes lose their tempers over something unconnected (or only distantly connected) with the actual problem. In Jem's particular case, it must have felt like an unreal situation when Margot reappeared, presumably after he had given up hope of ever seeing her again, and concern about Joey and Frieda possibly having gone off with someone unknown on top of years of wondering what happened to his sister must have just pushed him too far.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I agree that it's realistic to see someone behaving less than ideally under strain, but I don't actually think that EBD intends us to see either Jem or Phil Graves as doing anything wrong in either of these situations. I think if EBD had intended Jem to look like an overbearing idiot in advance of meeting Margot again, she would have shown him saying to Joey, later on, something along the lines of 'Look, I'm sorry I snapped, and pass on my apologies to Frieda - I was a bit overwrought. But don't waltz off to a hotel with a stranger ever again, whoever they claim to be!' And no reader would in the least blame him for having lost it a bit, as Phil Graves understandably does in the fear there might be a smallpox epidemic in the vicinity of the Gornetz Platz! But I honestly think EBD thinks this is an appropriate way for masterful doctors to behave in a crisis, and as it's Jem who is most often portrayed in this way, I tend to dislike him out of all of her male characters - though it's more to do with EBD's conception of how 'big doctors' should behave than anything really to do with his character, if that makes sense...? MJKB, I love that story about the consultant who thought you were standing up as a sign of respect - my mind is boggling.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Does Jem ever get a break? I know that he goes off on lots of jollies ... er, sorry, I mean conferences, but I can't recall any mention of him just going on a family holiday with Madge and the children.

Author:	Thursday Next [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Alison H wrote: Does Jem ever get a break? I know that he goes off on lots of jollies ... er, sorry, I mean conferences, but I can't recall any mention of him just going on a family holiday with Madge and the children. We do hear in one book that Madge and Jem are going to be the next users of Die Blumen when the Maynards have returned home. I think as well that it is mentioned that they use the Yorkshire cottage although no specific holiday is mentioned.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
2nd Gen Fan wrote: In Jem's particular case, it must have felt like an unreal situation when Margot reappeared, presumably after he had given up hope of ever seeing her again, and concern about Joey and Frieda possibly having gone off with someone unknown on top of years of wondering what happened to his sister must have just pushed him too far. I'm sorry to keep on about this, but ... Quote: 'Sorry I can't stop: but if we're to see into this fairy-tale the seem to have unearthed ...' 'Margot - if it is Margot, and not an impister - made her own bed when she ran away with Venables,' said Jem curtly, not too pleased to find that Joey had broadcast the tale already. 'If she has found it uncomfortable, that was her own lookout.' ... Jem looked at her with compressed lips ... 'Freida, you might try to hold your tongue about all this - if you can! I'm not anxious to have my private affairs cried from the housetops, you know.' With this somewhat bitter remark, he marched Jo off, leaving Freida scarlet and Kurt not very sure what to say ... Jo cast doubtful glances at her brother in law as she hurried along by his side. She knew he was angry, and racked her brains to think what esle she could have done in the circumstances in which Daisy's hail had plunged them ... 'So I am 'pretty mad', as you call it,' he told her. 'Really Jo ... to go off like that with a perfect stranger! You must be crazy!' ... Jem is consistently more concerned about his own standing and how it will make people view him. Was he so important that there was the real possibility that a perfect stranger might turn up and pose as his long-lost sister? They would have had to have known the sister well to have constructed a tale that would pass muster there, then. His attitude regarding his sister is simply awful. She ran away with someone the family didn't approve of. And she certainly did lie on her own uncomfortable bed - she didn't seek help from her brother until there was nowhere left to turn - he was a last resort, and not suprising given Jem's reaction that it was her own lookout. If that was the response, wouldn't you have avoided him unless you really had exhausted all other possibilities? His treatment of Freida is uncalled-for. He is rude and insulting, leaving both Freida and Kurt embarassed (a sign of 'ill breeeding', if you like ..!!). And I don't agree that Jem has any concern for Joey's safety at all. I think that remark relates to his concern that the stranger is an imposter ... you know, if a family member said to me that they had discovered a long-lost relative of mine, it would never occur to me that the 'stranger' was an imposter - that seems a just a little paranoid. Or full of self-importance, especially as Jem knows he has a lost sister. Why then think it's an unknown person? I suppose though, the fact that one can react so strongly to a fictional character is evidence of the strength of the character development. I suppose he's so believeable (although very unpleasant), and that's why I react as I do. So, no. I do NOT like Jem Russell, for the reasons stated here, and, for me, this event then colours whatever he does ...

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Jem was obviously very upset by the whole Margot situation: we see when they do meet up how much he cares about her. We don't know exactly what went on: it's possible that he was at university or working in another part of the country and didn't know that Margot had gone until it was too late (although, seeing as he knew about Daisy, they must have been in touch somewhere along the line). Or that there was a huge family row and his father forced him to watch as he dramatically struck Margot's name out of the family Bible with a big black pen or something like that. The "impostor" line is certainly very odd - he's a doctor, not a member of the Russian imperial family! - but I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's just acting out of character because of the shock and the memories it brought back. The whole episode's very emotional: he practically runs to the hotel, even though Margot wasn't going anywhere and running through busy city streets must have attracted attention, and then he keeps hugging and kissing her even though he's definitely not a huggy-kissy kind of person. The two Jem episodes which I really don't like are his banning Sybil from the house after the accident with Josette and, although I accept that things were different then, his walloping Mario Balbini - wouldn't a clip round the earhole have done, instead of battering the kid until he was in tears? I really wish EBD'd told us more about Jem's background. The storyline with Margot and Stephen could've been so interesting.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Alison H wrote: The "impostor" line is certainly very odd - he's a doctor, not a member of the Russian imperial family! I was wondering whether EBD had been reading some lookalike 'impostor' novel like Brat Farrar, only the dates don't fit, because I think Brat Farrar is from around 1950. But there must be lots of others, as well as historical impostors, she may have had in mind. Though it is all a bit melodramatically Anastasia/Anna Andersen-ish. Though Jem must have come into a considerable fortune somehow, if the San is his privately-funded venture, which might explain his bizarre sense that someone might actually go to the trouble of pretending to be his long-lost sister in order to cash in! It's a pity, really, EBD didn't decide to go for all-out melodrama and have Margot entirely unrecognisable through suffering, and have to prove her identity by correctly asserting that Jem has an unusually-shaped scar on some part of his body...

Author:	MJKB [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Alison H wrote: The "impostor" line is certainly very odd - he's a doctor, not a member of the Russian imperial family! I completely agree. The first time I read that chapter I couldn't figure out why Jem would come to the conclusion that a strange woman with two small children would travel all the way to Tyrol from Australia and pose as his sister. It doesn't make alot of sense. Alison H wrote: Jem is consistently more concerned about his own standing and how it will make people view him. That's certainly true in this case. He is simply furious with poor Frieda and even Kurt who has done nothing at all comes in for a swipe of his fury. I can't help thinking that if the positions were reversed, neither Frieda nor Kurt would dream of being so rude and bitter towards Jem.They are both far too polite and sensitive to the feelings of others to do so. Alison H wrote: MJKB, I love that story about the consultant who thought you were standing up as a sign of respect - my mind is boggling. Amazing, isn't it, how pompous and self important some people are!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Does nobody but me think that this is a perfectly natural reaction to have? He's been called away to meet his long-lost sister - and he doesn't want to get his hopes up that it might actually be his sister, so he has to keep inventing possibilities as to why it might not be, so that he won't be disappointed if it isn't - and then when he gets there he discovers that his business has been spread already. So he a) has the anxiety of a big meeting with someone who might or might not be his long lost sister and b) the anxiety which would have come with Joey going missing. He's had the journey down to Innsbruck, which would have taken a while, to work himself up over it, and now he's cross and bothered by it all, and not in the mood for being tactful. It's very much how I'd react!

Author:	Llywela [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think it's a very human reaction - not necessarily a pleasant one, but very real, and I like any behaviour that makes a fictional character feel more real, even if it also makes me hiss and seethe at them! Ditto Phil Graves snapping at the girls upon finding them in a house he knows to be potentially extremely contagious - and over-the-top and unfair reaction, sure, but very understandable, given the circumstances, not least because he knows, as the girls don't, that they have potentially put themselves in great danger and he has to rapidly assess the situation and make snap decisions to minimise that risk.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
Alison H wrote: Jem was obviously very upset by the whole Margot situation: we see when they do meet up how much he cares about her... The whole episode's very emotional: he practically runs to the hotel, even though Margot wasn't going anywhere and running through busy city streets must have attracted attention, and then he keeps hugging and kissing her even though he's definitely not a huggy-kissy kind of person. I do think that Jem is portrayed inconsistently in this respect - first, what seems to be his despising of Margot, and then the actual reunion where he's as Alison H says ... If you look at what he says, at first he's upset - not because of the 'Margot situation' in terms of he has been sorry that the family cut her off - because she's deserved whatever it is she got. I do agree that the reunion is inconsistent with this, but by my view of him has been laid down and I find it hard to assess anything else he says except through how he's first spoken of his sister ... ChubbyMonkey said Quote: he doesn't want to get his hopes up that it might actually be his sister, so he has to keep inventing possibilities as to why it might not be, so that he won't be disappointed if it isn't Now, see, this is just what I don't see at all ... I don't see a man who loves his long-lost sister and who is then trying to push down the hope that this potential imposter might be her, returned to the fold ... I just see an extremely rude man being furious at his sister-in-law and her friend and brother. Llwela said Quote: given the circumstances, not least because he knows, as the girls don't, that they have potentially put themselves in great danger and he has to rapidly assess the situation and make snap decisions to minimise that risk. But have the two of them put themselves in great danger? It's Austria, it all takes place in very public places, there are two of them, one of whom is native to the town, and neither are young children. For Jem to have to rapidly assess the situation and make snap decisions to minimise the risk (when there has been no risk, although he doesn't know that, I'll concur) seems a little bit OTT. To me, anyway ...

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
I think that Llywela meant when Phil Graves has to deal with the smallpox episode, which obviously would need snap decisions as they are now potentially contagious, and a risk to themselves and others. If not, though, please ignore me Personally, I think that you have to put yourself into Jem's situation to understand it; you have to realise what hope there must be for him in finding a member of his family when he thought that they'd all gone, and also the fear that it won't be at all that stops him from getting too hopeful and leaves him annoyed at himself and Margot for putting him through this, upset, potentially happy just because the hope is there, confused and having to try and deal with Joey talking all over the shop. That could just be me though but it seems like a whole mix of emotions to try and deal with! I'd question how else people would expect him to react/what would be the appropriate reaction in such a situation? I will say that it must speak volumes for EBD's writing that we can have such a long debate about this!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I will say that it must speak volumes for EBD's writing that we can have such a long debate about this! Dear ChubbyMonkey - I agree whole-heartedly with you on this point!!! Not about Jem's reaction, but this ...

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jem Russell
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Does nobody but me think that this is a perfectly natural reaction to have? He's been called away to meet his long-lost sister - and he doesn't want to get his hopes up that it might actually be his sister, so he has to keep inventing possibilities as to why it might not be, so that he won't be disappointed if it isn't - and then when he gets there he discovers that his business has been spread already. So he a) has the anxiety of a big meeting with someone who might or might not be his long lost sister and b) the anxiety which would have come with Joey going missing. He's had the journey down to Innsbruck, which would have taken a while, to work himself up over it, and now he's cross and bothered by it all, and not in the mood for being tactful. It's very much how I'd react! I'll go along with you, Ariel. I don't particularly like Jem in bits of this episode, and I do think he over-reacts, but I can see why he might. I think part of the difficulty is that we don't properly know the backstory, which may in part explain his reaction. This may be completely wrong, but here's my theory: Jem and Margot were close as children. When she started seeing the unsuitable Steven, their parents reacted strongly against the relationship, culminating in giving her an ultimatum: never see him again or leave here and don't come back. Deeply in love, she chose to leave. Jem felt shocked and betrayed- he didn't understand how she could have chosen this man over him and their parents. Suddenly she's gone and he has to cope with their parents' reactions alone. All the responsibility for them falls on his shoulders, plus all their hopes for the future are centred solely on him. On top of that he has to be the one to cope with all the gossip that follows her disappearance. He listens to his parents insist that his sister has made her bed and must lie in it, that it's all her own fault if it goes wrong, that they raised her to be better than that so if she is so weak as to fall for the first charming boy that looks her way then that's her look out. He misses Margot dreadfully but knows he can never say so because their family has cut her out of their lives, so he develops a bitter, hard shell as he works his way up to make his parents proud of him; he knows now that if he fails to meet their expectations, they could turn on him as easily as they turned on Margot. Secretly, he tries to trace her but for whatever reason, fails to establish contact properly. Maybe he does find her but Steven refuses to let her contact her family after everything they had said and done? Twenty (?) years on, his young, volatile sister-in-law comes back from town with some crazy story about having met his sister, who he has long stopped thinking about because it was just too hard. The whole thing sounds ridiculous, he feels himself start to hope even while knowing it would be a near impossible coincidence if it were true. Trying to crush that hope, he flares out at Joey, who shouldn't really have gone off with strangers (though yes, it's hard to see what else she could have done). Desperate to avoid the gossip that surrounded him and his family when Margot disappeared, he unfairly snaps at Frieda and Kurt. Margot isn't something he has discussed for years- he doesn't want the whole painful episode dragged up again. At the same time, he knows there's a faint possibility that it could be true, so he nearly runs Joey off her feet trying to get to the hotel. On finding her, he's obviously delighted and can finally relax. Ok, that may have been a bit much. Admittedly I'm not sure there's any evidence for most of that in books (though from his delight at finding her and her children, I think it's safe to assume they were close at one stage in their lives), but that's how I've always thought of their back story, for some reason. So yes, he overreacts, is deeply unfair to Frieda and Kurt, and not much nicer to Joey, but I think that's very human in the circumstances. The only thing I can't let him off for is not apologising properly after it's all over, but the episode itself I tend to put down to being over-emotional and terrified of showing just how much he wants Joey's crazy story to be true (stiff upper lip).