The CBB :: View topic - Doctors: Jack Maynard

It's interesting that EBD shows that side to him, rather than just making Joey's husband an all round nice guy with a cheery manner and twinkling eyes and so on - or are we meant to see those traits as a sign of being an Alpha Male?

I do think if Jack is expected to hold it together for Joey all the time and be the strong one in the marriage, it would take it's toll and can see why, rather than have Joey ill for days on end because she refuses to rest or take her health seriously, Jack doses her so she's forced to rest and gets better quicker.
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Jack then ends up turning to his older children for help because they seem to cope with the responsibility better than Joey does and Jack can't do it on her own. The sad thing is Jack doesn't seem to see this and enables Joey's inability to cope behaviour by then placing the burden on his older children or expecting more adult behaviour from his younger ones.

Like other people, I find the episode in Joey and Co - where Len tries to cope alone with Charles' illness, so as not to disturb her mother - chilling in its implications. If his appendix had ruptured, Charles could have died because Len had been coached into thinking that a sibling's acute abdominal pain was of less importance than an uninterrupted night's sleep for her mother!

Maybe EBD thought that people should always find spouses with hair colour different to their own so that they'd have lots of "variety" amongst their dozens of children. It makes me laugh when Jo tells someone (Nina? Kathie?) that she had "the luck" to marry a very fair man so that they've got a mixture of different hair colours amongst the kids. & Janie Lucy tells Joey that "luckily" she married a handsome man so all the kids (except poor Betsy!) are good-looking.

And having a super-busy life like Joey's - career, household, 11 kids - makes it very difficult for one to put one's own needs first without considerable encouragement.

So I rather like the way Jack takes care of Jo when she really needs it, although I agree that EBD makes rather a cult of Joey's supposed delicacy, albeit an inconsistent one - is she delicate or is she 'strong as a horse'? Make your mind up! Is it just a plot device, and one she changes to suit herself? Or is the 'strong as a horse' bit Joey's own impression of herself, and not entirely accurate?

And did Len know that Charles was seriously ill? It can be hard to tell when a crisis has reached the point where one can't deal with it alone any more.

Len wrote:

And having a super-busy life like Joey's - career, household, 11 kids - makes it very difficult for one to put one's own needs first without considerable encouragement.

I'm afraid I can't really buy Joey's life as enormously busy - or at least anywhere near as busy as a real human being with a large family and a writing career would be! Even leaving aside the issue of copious household help, and the fact that most of her children are away from home for large portions of the year - and the fact that EBD never shows us Joey stressed about a writing deadline, or being stuck in a novel etc, just correcting the odd set of proofs! - when she's not 'busy' (in the biological sense!), she seems to be permanently up for visitors, houseguests, CS consultations, trips down to Montreux, and all kinds of social life etc etc. I think it's telling that the only time Joey talks about herself as being 'busy', it's a euphemism for pregnancy, not that she has a lot to do! (I mean, obviously her social life makes her busy, but that's something she chooses freely...?)

I suppose my position is that it infantilises an adult woman who is - sor far as we know - in full possession of her faculties, when the decision is taken out of her hands. Maybe she does think she's as strong as a horse, which is fair enough - my problem is that EBD can't seem to make up her mind!

Len wrote:

And did Len know that Charles was seriously ill? It can be hard to tell when a crisis has reached the point where one can't deal with it alone any more.

That incident is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. Surely responsible Len, daughter of a doctor, would have known that a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain that's bad enough to make him cry was a potentially serious matter? I was going to say she would have known it from First Aid in Guides anyway - but I'm not entirely clear Len would have been a Guide, given that the CS doesn't seem to have them in Switzerland...?

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

I think we're being a bit hard on Len. She handled the situation in the way that (in my experience) most reasonable parents do when their child suddenly complains of tummy pain - she gave some pain relief and a warm drink, and waited to see if his symptoms would settle. And when they didn't, she promptly got help. Most parents don't call for a doctor within minutes of a child developing pain like that, and, when Len was first woken, Charles was still walking and talking and therefore probably didn't look seriously unwell.

if Jo is so delicate, why is she 5'9" tall, able to walk for miles, play tennis and all the rest, and above all, why did she have so many pregnancies?

The responsibility thing is weird, as you say, GotNerd. CS prefects are expected to take on a huge amount of responsibility, and Len in particular is expected to take on a lot at home as well, and yet Mary-Lou gets so embarrassed by Joan Baker's talk that she can't even say the word "boys" without going bright red.

Len is a particularly odd example - there's no suggestion of any interim between the 'young' CS-approved state of mind in relation to boys and her engagement to a much older man. Or are we supposed to assume she's had Joan-Baker style thoughts about boys as boyfriends, at least...? It just seems deeply peculiar to have EBD present a classic instance of a CS girl who's been 'kept young' by both school and home nonetheless getting engaged before she leaves school!

The modern view of Len - and I think most of us subscribe wholeheartedly to it! - would be that this leaves her thoroughly unprepared for married life, and far too sheltered to have made a really informed choice about her husband, and marriage in general.

Len can cope with this, Mother probably won't. And Dad will just get angry, like he did with Mike. Added to which, your Father continually tells you Mother delicate and needs her rest and the last thing you want to do is cause Mother to faint or become unwell the way she has already done at the beginning of that summer or have Dad so angry he won't speak to you for three days.

That to me is the saddest thing about the children's relationship with their parents is, that summer they have learnt; their parents can't cope with difficult or scary situations, but Len can, so lets go to Len for help, she can cope and she cares.

EBD seems to consider it a positive thing that Len expects and is expected to take on so much responsibility at an early age.

Alison H wrote:

EBD seems to consider it a positive thing that Len expects and is expected to take on so much responsibility at an early age.

I do think she recognises that it isn't completely positive - the most direct criticism comes from Mary-Lou in Theodora when she tells Len that if she continues taking on responsibiity for people she's going to turn into the sort of bossy interfering woman that nobody likes (or words to that effect - it sounds very harsh as I type it!). And I think there are other instances where her peers (and possibly Miss A.) tell her off for worrying about things and people that aren't really her concern.

I don't think Hilda is particularly sympathetic towards Len and the way she snaps at Len for feeling the way her parents have told her she should be, I'm not impressed with. Hilda shows far more sympathy for girls from other families

“ Because you may have seemed to break a promise is that any reason why those eight should break a stringent rule, may I ask?”

“ No-no!” Len stammered, looking and feeling foolish.

“ Then will you please use your reason? The blame is not yours. They are all old enough to know that if you did not take them it was because something had prevented it. All such promises, as they should know, are conditional on your having permission, and if they had taken the trouble to think for five minutes, they would have realised it. So should you. Go away, Len, and please try to overcome this absurd scrupulosity of yours. If it goes on, you will end up by becoming morbid. No blame attaches to you for whatever they are up to, and no blame is attributed to you. Now please go away. I have too much to do to be worried by the need to soothe your conscience.”

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue May 25, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Doctors: Jack Maynard
Sorry for posting this early - have an exam tomorrow, so I wanted to make sure that I remembered to do it! Jack Maynard is introduced to the series through the San., where he works as a doctor while in the Tirol. His sister, Mollie, is also a teacher at the school. It is clear from an early stage that his affections are with Joey, but she knows little of this until the Anschluss, when they become engaged. Also in Exile they are married. They settle first in England, where Jack goes off to fight, and is, at one stage, missing presumed dead. However, he turns up alive and relatively well, and the couple go on to have a long family. There is an extended trip to Canada, and then Jack is made head of the San. in Switzerland, where the Maynards are still settled at the end of the series. As well as Mollie, Jack also has an older brother Bob. When he dies in the war, he leaves Jack as the heir to the Maynard fortune. However, we see very little of either Mollie, once she stops teaching, or of Bob and his wife Lydia, though they are mentioned in the books. What do you think of Jack as a character? Do you like him? Why? Do you think that EBD introduced him simply as Joey's future husband, or was he initially introduced as Mollie's brother and the idea of linking him to Joey came later? What do you think of his relationship with Joey? Does he seem overprotective to you, or is he aware of how delicate she was in her earlier life? How does it compare to what we see of other character's relationships in the series? Also, what do you think of his relationship with his children? Does he strike you as a good father, or do you think he could have been better? Would you change anything about him? We also learn a lot of his background - do you find this believeable? What do you think of it? Please discuss these and any other points relating to Jack Maynard below! Idea from Elle

Author:	Alison H [ Tue May 25, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I think that Jack was originally introduced just as AN other doctor - and throughout the series he's never the bigwig that Jem, who's a world-renowned expert on TB and even in the Swiss years is technically Jack's boss, is - and that EBD just made him Mollie's brother so as to link him to an existing character, but I'd love to know at what point she decided to pair him up with Jo. Once she'd decided to marry Jo off and/but to keep her close to the school, Jack was the obvious choice, but I'd really like to know how early on she (EBD) decided that. I think the first hint's in Camp when Jack turns up at the camp with Jem. In Exploits I get the impression that she might even have been thinking of pairing him up with Grizel, but that might just be my imagination ... has anyone else had that idea ? I wish we knew more about Jack's family, because there are so many gaps in what we do know, especially about Rolf. Also, I'd like to've seen him with more of a life of his own: other than Carola's dad, who is only there in his capacity as the father of a CS girl, I don't think we ever see any of Jack's friends visit the Maynards. He seems friendly with Jem and Gottfried early on - Jem is devastated when he thinks Jack is dead - but he hardly sees them in later years. I think that he's very overprotective towards Joey. Adult Joey is very different in some ways from the girl who went chasing off after Grizel and Elisaveta, and maybe that was partly just because she changed as she grew up and partly the effect of her experiences in Exile but a lot of it must have been due to Jack. It particularly annoys me when Charles is scared to disturb his parents when he's ill because Jack has made such a big deal of the need not to disturb Joey. & the way he treats Margot in Theodora and Mike in Joey & Co is quite frightening. It's interesting that EBD shows that side to him, rather than just making Joey's husband an all round nice guy with a cheery manner and twinkling eyes and so on - or are we meant to see those traits as a sign of being an Alpha Male? I appreciate that the books are about a girls' school and are intended for young female readers, but as a supposed adult I'd like to know more about Jack's take on things - how he coped with the responsibility of being head of the San and also being a husband and the father of umpteen children, and how he felt about people from the CS being in and out of the house at all times, and what he thought about his parents and siblings, and so on.

Author:	Abi [ Tue May 25, 2010 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Alison H wrote: It's interesting that EBD shows that side to him, rather than just making Joey's husband an all round nice guy with a cheery manner and twinkling eyes and so on - or are we meant to see those traits as a sign of being an Alpha Male? I think that's probably right, Alison! Or she may even have thought that such treatment - for what she saw as really terrible offences - was a sign of Good Parenting. Though I see refusing to see your son until your wife is well enough to talk some sense into you as a sign of something rather more unpleasant, having had experience of that sort of parenting myself. Interestingly, he never treated Joey in this way. Maybe he never felt the need to, if she never angered him in the same way. I do see him as having rather a controlling personality, for example the way he doses Joey, often completely unnecessarily. He seems to want to keep her as a semi-invalid when she clearly isn't. Who needs to lie down for an entire morning after getting stuck in a box? I do think it would have been interesting to see more of Jack's earlier life and his life outside the family and school. But on the other hand, the books are primarily school stories so I suppose this might have seemed out of place. I suspect that Jack was mostly there as Joey's husband and the Ideal Man.

Author:	mohini [ Wed May 26, 2010 5:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I liked Jack earlier in the series. But later he is just Joey's husband without any personality of his own. He seems to think of Joey first and then the kids.He is in the background and comes in front only when Joe's health is mentioned. Though I like the scenes where Joey is shown to take care of him - allowing him to sleep after a hectic day in hospital, getting hot coffee for him. Joey is said to overcome her delicacy in early years at Tirol so why keep on persisting that she is delicate and sensitive. Jack is not shown close to the children. I love his scene with Mary Lou where she discusses one of the girls with him and talks to him instead of Joey as Joy is not to hear stressful things as she would be busy. Which makes me wonder Did Joey stop reading papers and listening to news as soon as she knew she would be busy? How could she read or hear about wars and fights and about the people she knew?

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed May 26, 2010 8:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
To me there are two Jacks. There's the early Jack, who is good-natured, impossible to snub, 'matey' with the girls, interested in Jo but patiently waiting for her to grow up, inexperienced by keen. This is the Jack who is ruthlessly teased by Jo even after they're married, and who teases her back and who treats her as a friend as well as wife. Then there's... the other Jack, who refuses to see that Jo is a capable adult and doses and treats her like a child and who has a temper so bad it's frightening. The latter Jack, I think, is the result of EBD trying to make him over into a Herr-Doktor-Lord-of-the-Manor, in the same way that Jem is - only it doesn't work, because Jem, for all his faults, is never a scary character. When he doses Jo it's because she's actually sick; we never see him with the kind of temper that Jack has, and although we see him snap at people I never get the feeling he might lose control. I agree with Alison that for all we learn about his background, there's an awful lot we don't know which actually makes it all the more interesting. I mean, we don't actually even know that much about Madge and Joey's family, but we're told just enough about Jack for our interest to be piqued (Rolf's accident) and not enough for us to ever really know about his family and background. I wonder if EBD had it all planned out but never had a chance to include it? It's a pity she didn't choose to revisit his family in later books. If you think of Future, Melanie's effectively part of Joey's family because of her connection to the CS. Wouldn't it have been interesting if she'd had a connection to Jack's? If they'd gone on holiday to a place that had a special significance to him? (Far less interesting to me as a child, since I loved meeting OGs and the daughters (...nieces) of OGs! But Jack, through Joy, essentially adopts the CS as his extended family, too.

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Doctors: Jack Maynard http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7919

Author:	Cel [ Wed May 26, 2010 10:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I don't really believe in Jack's awful temper, when do we ever see it in action? The second-hand report of it after Mike's cliff accident is the only incident that stands out in my mind (but maybe I'm forgetting something huge?) I do agree that his attitude towards Mike after this episode was completely wrong - Mike was very young, terrified after a genuine life-or-death experience, and Jack's behaviour towards him could only have made things worse. I have less of a problem with how he treats the much-older Margot after her 'attempted blackmailing' (the whole blackmail storyline is a bit of a damp squib, as she never really gets a chance to do anything) - she did a nasty rather than a reckless thing, she was old enough to know better and she was never in physical danger, so maybe a dose of reality from her father was exactly what she needed.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed May 26, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I agree that the famed temper/tendency to ignore or banish errant children for long periods as a punishment is something EBD gives to her doctors to prove they are Alpha Male Heads of Household. I'd link it to the dosing, in fact. EBD has been very successful in creating a vibrant all-female world where it's plain that men are by no means necessary or even particularly important, but when the series moves on, and she has to depict men in domestic roles especially in relation to NB characters like Madge and Joey, she has to try and beef them up a bit, because she also has quite 'traditional' views of men as strong, dominant etc. The Joey-Jack relationship is clearly never going to be some kind of Victorian affair, but I think EBD feels it's important to show Jack as not being dominated by his charismatic, strong-minded wife, so she artifically 'weakens' Joey so that Jack can enforce behaviour on her for unarguable medical reasons. And I think EBD invents his temper and his punitive streak for the same reason - to show that he's Head of Household and not under Joey's thumb as regards the discipline of his children. Hence his slightly Victorian Headmaster trappings, where he sees people for lectures in his study, or waits several days to lecture Len and Melanie for their escapade up the Barenbad in the storm. For me, it comes down to the fact that, having invented a very strong female character, EBD needs to bump up the strength of the male character she pairs Joey with (while also weakening Joey into being fragile, permanently 'busy' and sensitive) as she clearly thinks it would be unsuitable to show Joey dominating her marriage the way she effortlessly dominates all her friendships. I think Jack is a slightly revised, younger, funner, less authoritarian version of Jem, tweaked to be a better fit for Joey. I agree he was just another doctor initially, and it's not entirely clear from the books when EBD selected him for Joey, or not to me, anyway. To be honest, given how central he is to the CS as the renowned Joey's husband, I find him quite an elusive figure - not sure I could pick him out of a line-up, know very little about his looks (tallish, fairish), tastes and character. It often seems to me that he's just a token figure, a sort of beard for the fact that Joey's real marriage is to the CS!

Author:	bonnie [ Wed May 26, 2010 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I don't like Jack, in the same way that I don't like Jem - I find them overbearing and unpleasant most of the time. I thought that he and Grizel had a thing going in Exploits as well, and I think she'd have been more fun as a match for him - thinking of the shouting matches! No, don't like him. And Madge should have married James H. Kettlewell!

Author:	MJKB [ Wed May 26, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I think it's quite interesting that Joey gets stuck in box. It could be interpreted as a metaphor for what happens to her when she gets married. In some ways it is a pity that the married Jack doesn't go the way Gilbert Blythe does in the Anne sequels. Gilbert remains very much the same character he was before he marries, but, imo, is still a very desirable husband for a GO heroine like Anne. He is never seen as head of household, but as Anne's lover, companion and friend, and he never loses anything of his masculinity. I agree with those who say that the post married Jack is EBD's ideal of the stern but loving husband and father. Having said that, Jack and Joey's life together is often portrayed as very loving companionable too.

Author:	emma t [ Thu May 27, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
At the moment I am reading a book about Daisy, the countess of Warrick who's surname is Maynard, and her father I think was called Charles without looking at the book, which I found quite a coinsidence - maybe EBD had known about this wealthy family?! Anyway as for Jack, I do like him even if he annoys me when he dosses Joey! Surely that would be going out of line even if he is a doctor...I would have thought that being her husband he would not have been able to treat her. Can any one enlighten me on this please? His attitude as a parent is constant throughout the seriel. He was quite strict in 'rescue' when Margot had that temper tantrum becasue she wanted everything to herself, and Joey always tried to sheild him from her tantrums. Again Margot was in the same position over the clock busnisness with Emerence in the later part of the seriel; Jack shows his authority then, and does not want Joey to know of what has taken place. When Mike goes over the cliff, and she faints, again he is quite angry, so I do think that the temper is there and he somtimes might struggle to keep a grip on it. He loves Joey, but Joey is quick to point out that Mike needs forgiving and not to go on punishing him as Jack might have done. On the other hand, he is very caring. He's a brilliant doctor, and Joey is teased often that he will get on the honors list one day and it will be her turn to be lady. That I would love to see!

Author:	Alison H [ Thu May 27, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I'd think EBD knew about Daisy Warwick because of her notorious affair with the future Edward VII ... or maybe she didn't spend as much time reading gossipy history as I do .

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I actually feel sorry for Jack at times. As nice and fun and sympathetic as Joey is at times, she would be a difficult person to be married to. I find Joey's continual insistence to remain young or her inability to cope with difficult situations would put a huge burden on Jack. At the beginning of their relationship, I never get the impression that Jack dosed Joey on a regular basis except after their trek in Exile when Gottfried says he thinks its a bad idea. I do think if Jack is expected to hold it together for Joey all the time and be the strong one in the marriage, it would take it's toll and can see why, rather than have Joey ill for days on end because she refuses to rest or take her health seriously, Jack doses her so she's forced to rest and gets better quicker. I think the Mike incidence is most telling about Joey's inability to cope because the moment the crisis is over, Joey faints for 2 hours, which leaves all the responsibility to 14 year old Len. And then when Madge is trying to tell her to take it seriously, Joey refuses and treats it like a joke. Jack then ends up turning to his older children for help because they seem to cope with the responsibility better than Joey does and Jack can't do it on her own. The sad thing is Jack doesn't seem to see this and enables Joey's inability to cope behaviour by then placing the burden on his older children or expecting more adult behaviour from his younger ones. I am surprised Jack doesn't end up resenting Joey for this but assume it's because she is very charming, does at times seem extremely understanding, so he overlooks the disappointment of a wife he cannot share the heavier parts of the load.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri May 28, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Fiona Mc wrote: I do think if Jack is expected to hold it together for Joey all the time and be the strong one in the marriage, it would take it's toll and can see why, rather than have Joey ill for days on end because she refuses to rest or take her health seriously, Jack doses her so she's forced to rest and gets better quicker. ... Jack then ends up turning to his older children for help because they seem to cope with the responsibility better than Joey does and Jack can't do it on her own. The sad thing is Jack doesn't seem to see this and enables Joey's inability to cope behaviour by then placing the burden on his older children or expecting more adult behaviour from his younger ones. I see what you mean, but I tend to think that on the whole Jack deals badly with having a wife who never grows out of her childhood identity as the delicate one whose health older people worry about and fuss over, so she doesn't have to. That's what we all do when we're small children - we want to go out and play when we've got measles and a temperature of 104 etc - but we grow out of it, and learn to take responsibility for our own health. Joey never does, because Jack takes over from Madge, Jem and Matey, as the hovering medical authority. Joey can go on playing the eternal schoolgirl without a health care in the world, because there's always someone else mandating when she rests or is medicated etc. I can see in a sense why Jack does it - because Joey clearly can't or won't decide to rest or take medicine without being forced to - but I find his placing the burden of worry about Joey on the elder children unjustifiable. Joey, whatever her quirks, is an adult; the triplets are not - they should not be tiptoe-ing round regularly, unable to share some problem, or ask advice, or coping with a serious situation solo, so as 'not to upset Mamma'. I think if you're a parent, you owe it to your children to be able to cope with adult life, so they don't have to do so before their time. There are situations where children have to cope, of course - when they are carers for seriously-ill parents etc - but Joey is not seriously ill, and I don't think anyone would pretend that a child being primary carer for an adult is an ideal situation, anyway. Whereas the triplets' home environment is seen as ideal. Like other people, I find the episode in Joey and Co - where Len tries to cope alone with Charles' illness, so as not to disturb her mother - chilling in its implications. If his appendix had ruptured, Charles could have died because Len had been coached into thinking that a sibling's acute abdominal pain was of less importance than an uninterrupted night's sleep for her mother! And, given that I can't imagine Joey herself coaching the triplets into this, it has to be Jack who impresses this upon them. I sympathise to an extent, but I do see him as enabling a situation where Joey will not take adult responsibility for herself, rather like the way the CS 'allows' Mary-Lou to do the same thing with Verity (though it's even less excusable in two adults). Jack makes Joey something of a 'spineless jellyfish' in a way EBD doesn't seem to realise...

Author:	MJKB [ Fri May 28, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Fantastic analysis of Joey's and Jack's relationship. Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Like other people, I find the episode in Joey and Co - where Len tries to cope alone with Charles' illness, so as not to disturb her mother - chilling in its implications. If his appendix had ruptured, Charles could have died because Len had been coached into thinking that a sibling's acute abdominal pain was of less importance than an uninterrupted night's sleep for her mother! I agree. It is pretty chilling to see the extent to which Jack's insistence on his children's prioritising Joey's 'needs' ahead of theirs.

Author:	Audrey [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I hope I am not posting too late into this topic but I have only posted a couple of times previously so please excuse me. I agree with practically everything Cosimo's Jackal wrote on 28 May about the triplets and everyone else having to tiptoe around Joey almost as if she was the child. There was also an incident in Reunion - a conversation between Joey and Jack which I thought very strange where Joey remarks on Len still not being herself after nearly falling down the mountain. Jack leaps up and says Joey is not to talk about anyone else's distress when her own distress and reaction is so great. It is as if Len was not Jack's daughter and that Joey is the only person that should be considered. I think EBD wrote this because she has Jack treating Joey the way she herself would love to have been cared for (or at any rate the way she thinks she would like to have been cared for). I think Jack was brought into the series, even at the very start, as a prospective husband for Joey. After all, what other unattached English doctors did we hear about? At first, EBD did not have to bother about him too much and the character of Gottfried was developed but from the moment Jack became Mr Joey Bettany it was curtains for poor Gottfried and I think this is the reason he never re-appeared at the San. It would have been too much competition for Jack and Gisela who after all was first HG of the school would have been too much competition for Joey. I liked Jack but for some reason I always had the impression that he was just not in the same class as a doctor to Jem. I think Jack would have been better at the administrative side of the job whilst Jem was brilliant. I know though that Jack was very compassionate and caring with his patients but I just don't think he was a Jem Russell. It really irritated me that by the end of the series it was almost as if Jack had just as much to do with setting up the San in Austria as Jem did. I would like to have known more about Jack's family but think that they were quite well off - the house going to the National Trust, the inheritance of the triplets and Stephen from Grannie Maynard... One last point, Jack started off with brown hair but ended up "the world's fairest man". I thought that was Jem.

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Maybe EBD thought that people should always find spouses with hair colour different to their own so that they'd have lots of "variety" amongst their dozens of children. It makes me laugh when Jo tells someone (Nina? Kathie?) that she had "the luck" to marry a very fair man so that they've got a mixture of different hair colours amongst the kids. & Janie Lucy tells Joey that "luckily" she married a handsome man so all the kids (except poor Betsy!) are good-looking.

Author:	Len [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
This is an interesting discussion, and it reminds me of a conversation I had about Jack at the last Winchester meeting with Sealpuppy, AbbeyBufo and Abi. Sealpuppy made the point that sometimes we, even as adults, simply don't know what's good for us - if we're unwell, upset or stressed for example - and that it can be a useful thing to have a SLOC who will take charge temporarily and insist on us resting or whatever it is we need but are denying ourselves. Obviously, sneaky dosing is taking this rather too far, but I know I have benefited from SLOC bossing me into resting, and I have done the same for him. And having a super-busy life like Joey's - career, household, 11 kids - makes it very difficult for one to put one's own needs first without considerable encouragement. So I rather like the way Jack takes care of Jo when she really needs it, although I agree that EBD makes rather a cult of Joey's supposed delicacy, albeit an inconsistent one - is she delicate or is she 'strong as a horse'? Make your mind up! Is it just a plot device, and one she changes to suit herself? Or is the 'strong as a horse' bit Joey's own impression of herself, and not entirely accurate? As for making the children fear to disturb their mother at all costs, well, in Jack's defence, children aren't always good at knowing when an adult needs some peace and quiet. And did Len know that Charles was seriously ill? It can be hard to tell when a crisis has reached the point where one can't deal with it alone any more. But really, I think parents must expect to have to drop everything, including sleep, to care for their children, so Jack and Joey should have made clear to the children that, if in doubt, they should fetch a parent.

Author:	RubyGates [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Alison H wrote: Maybe EBD thought that people should always find spouses with hair colour different to their own so that they'd have lots of "variety" amongst their dozens of children. It makes me laugh when Jo tells someone (Nina? Kathie?) that she had "the luck" to marry a very fair man so that they've got a mixture of different hair colours amongst the kids. & Janie Lucy tells Joey that "luckily" she married a handsome man so all the kids (except poor Betsy!) are good-looking. Isn't it weird what tricks genes can play? My sister had red hair (it's gone brown as she's got older) and her husband was mousy blond, my hair is darkish brown with natural red highlights and my husband has brown hair yet my two kids and my sister's two all ended up with strawberry blonde hair. My son's hair has darkened as he's got older and my nephew's has lightened to blond but our girls still have strawberry blonde.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Len wrote: And having a super-busy life like Joey's - career, household, 11 kids - makes it very difficult for one to put one's own needs first without considerable encouragement. I'm afraid I can't really buy Joey's life as enormously busy - or at least anywhere near as busy as a real human being with a large family and a writing career would be! Even leaving aside the issue of copious household help, and the fact that most of her children are away from home for large portions of the year - and the fact that EBD never shows us Joey stressed about a writing deadline, or being stuck in a novel etc, just correcting the odd set of proofs! - when she's not 'busy' (in the biological sense!), she seems to be permanently up for visitors, houseguests, CS consultations, trips down to Montreux, and all kinds of social life etc etc. I think it's telling that the only time Joey talks about herself as being 'busy', it's a euphemism for pregnancy, not that she has a lot to do! (I mean, obviously her social life makes her busy, but that's something she chooses freely...?) Plus I think Joey's needs are always put first, by her husband and children - the only thing she's ever thwarted on is when she's forced to rest! I can't imagine how Joey would actually be if Jack and the elder children stopped monitoring her - would she work herself to the bone/make herself seriously ill..? Len wrote: So I rather like the way Jack takes care of Jo when she really needs it, although I agree that EBD makes rather a cult of Joey's supposed delicacy, albeit an inconsistent one - is she delicate or is she 'strong as a horse'? Make your mind up! Is it just a plot device, and one she changes to suit herself? Or is the 'strong as a horse' bit Joey's own impression of herself, and not entirely accurate? I suppose my position is that it infantilises an adult woman who is - sor far as we know - in full possession of her faculties, when the decision is taken out of her hands. Maybe she does think she's as strong as a horse, which is fair enough - my problem is that EBD can't seem to make up her mind! Len wrote: And did Len know that Charles was seriously ill? It can be hard to tell when a crisis has reached the point where one can't deal with it alone any more. That incident is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. Surely responsible Len, daughter of a doctor, would have known that a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain that's bad enough to make him cry was a potentially serious matter? I was going to say she would have known it from First Aid in Guides anyway - but I'm not entirely clear Len would have been a Guide, given that the CS doesn't seem to have them in Switzerland...?

Author:	Lesley [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
That's the bit that actually worries me most - because by Len taking it upon herself to look after Charles she runs a very high risk of making the situation far worse. She's given a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain a drink and some aspirin - this will not only reduce both the pain and temperature - meaning it is less likely to be taken as seriously, she has also filled his stomach causing him to have a far higher risk of aspiration when being intubated for anaesthetic. It was lucky Charles didn't die - all because Len had been indoctrinated not to disturb Joey.

Author:	Len [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Len wrote: And having a super-busy life like Joey's - career, household, 11 kids - makes it very difficult for one to put one's own needs first without considerable encouragement. I'm afraid I can't really buy Joey's life as enormously busy - or at least anywhere near as busy as a real human being with a large family and a writing career would be! Even leaving aside the issue of copious household help, and the fact that most of her children are away from home for large portions of the year - and the fact that EBD never shows us Joey stressed about a writing deadline, or being stuck in a novel etc, just correcting the odd set of proofs! - when she's not 'busy' (in the biological sense!), she seems to be permanently up for visitors, houseguests, CS consultations, trips down to Montreux, and all kinds of social life etc etc. I think it's telling that the only time Joey talks about herself as being 'busy', it's a euphemism for pregnancy, not that she has a lot to do! (I mean, obviously her social life makes her busy, but that's something she chooses freely...?) Yes, Joey's a classic case of over-committing! But still, she clearly sees it as her life's duty to write countless novels, have dozens of children, interfere with the school next door and maintain open house for any passing waif or stray, so she's likely to struggle to prioritise her own health and rest over the perceived needs of all these other commitments. I think the salient point is that Joey believes herself to be busy, regardless of whether she seems that way to us. Cosimo's Jackal wrote: I suppose my position is that it infantilises an adult woman who is - sor far as we know - in full possession of her faculties, when the decision is taken out of her hands. Maybe she does think she's as strong as a horse, which is fair enough - my problem is that EBD can't seem to make up her mind! Perhaps it could be argued that this is a reasonable thing for a married couple to do for each other - a bit of well-meaning bossiness when the other isn't taking good care of themselves. And a busy (over-committed!) person like Jo might feel the need for "permission" to do nothing for a while, to stop driving herself so hard, and that is what the bossiness provides. Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Len wrote: And did Len know that Charles was seriously ill? It can be hard to tell when a crisis has reached the point where one can't deal with it alone any more. That incident is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. Surely responsible Len, daughter of a doctor, would have known that a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain that's bad enough to make him cry was a potentially serious matter? Depends whether he was the type of child to cry at anything or not. But it is appalling and, like I said, the family rule should have been "Don't disturb your mother when she's exhausted and resting unless you really must, but if in doubt disturb her anyway". On a more general note, I wonder whether the strong feelings all this evokes have to do with modern marriage not being very sure of itself, its rules, conventions, limits and so on. We know we don't want the patriarchal, authoritarian model of old, but as a society in general we haven't come up with a set of guidelines for getting along in marriage/partnership. So a lot of people, anecdotally, are very defensive in their relationships - "I won't be told what to do by you!" - and also combative - "I've as much right as you to... whatever". Maybe we could do well to incorporate a modicum of giving in to one another in the context of a completely equal partnership. Just a theory, dragged out of my currently fevered brain!

Author:	Cel [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: That incident is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. Surely responsible Len, daughter of a doctor, would have known that a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain that's bad enough to make him cry was a potentially serious matter? I was going to say she would have known it from First Aid in Guides anyway - but I'm not entirely clear Len would have been a Guide, given that the CS doesn't seem to have them in Switzerland...? I think we're being a bit hard on Len. She handled the situation in the way that (in my experience) most reasonable parents do when their child suddenly complains of tummy pain - she gave some pain relief and a warm drink, and waited to see if his symptoms would settle. And when they didn't, she promptly got help. Most parents don't call for a doctor within minutes of a child developing pain like that, and, when Len was first woken, Charles was still walking and talking and therefore probably didn't look seriously unwell.

Author:	Len [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Cel wrote: Cosimo's Jackal wrote: That incident is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. Surely responsible Len, daughter of a doctor, would have known that a child with a high temperature and abdominal pain that's bad enough to make him cry was a potentially serious matter? I was going to say she would have known it from First Aid in Guides anyway - but I'm not entirely clear Len would have been a Guide, given that the CS doesn't seem to have them in Switzerland...? I think we're being a bit hard on Len. She handled the situation in the way that (in my experience) most reasonable parents do when their child suddenly complains of tummy pain - she gave some pain relief and a warm drink, and waited to see if his symptoms would settle. And when they didn't, she promptly got help. Most parents don't call for a doctor within minutes of a child developing pain like that, and, when Len was first woken, Charles was still walking and talking and therefore probably didn't look seriously unwell. You're right, you know. When I said above that it was appalling I think I meant with hindsight, knowing how ill he really was. But I'm sure I'd behave just as you describe, Cel, with my children. Children get minor pains and temperatures at the drop of a hat, which very rarely turn out to be anything serious. I give mine mint tea for tummy aches though they always angle for a polo mint instead! Indeed they have been known to fabricate tummy aches just to get a mint... Maybe what sets this incident apart is that it wasn't a parent ministering to the sick child - it was another child. I don't have any experience of this, although maybe I will in future as my eldest (aged eight) is a bit of a Len in the way he takes care of his younger siblings (not that I expect him to, in the style of the Maynards, might I add!)

Author:	Jennie [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I agree with Lesley. It was a stupid, mishandled situation; when a child is in so much pain, medical treatment is the first thing to think of, but EBD has these peculiar notions that mother's rest is all important, so the older children can and must manage with whatever life throws at them. It's also contradictory. We are made very much aware that they are the Maynard children who have ot do what they are told, but then are expected to cope with difficult situations such as Charles' pain, and Mike's almost accident. if Jo is so delicate, why is she 5'9" tall, able to walk for miles, play tennis and all the rest, and above all, why did she have so many pregnancies?

Author:	GotNerd [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Jennie wrote: if Jo is so delicate, why is she 5'9" tall, able to walk for miles, play tennis and all the rest, and above all, why did she have so many pregnancies? This last may be because EBD didn't realise how physically exhausting pregnancy is. If you've never been pregnant yourself, and you've never spoken to anyone who was about it (which I imagine she hadn't, given general societal attitudes at the time), you probably wouldn't realise what a strain it does put on the body. Also, with regard to the Maynard children, it always puzzled me how Jack and Joey insist on 'keeping our girls young', and yet give them so much responsibility at a comparatively young age. It seems to form these peculiar half-child adults, who are willing to take responsibility for twenty eleven year olds, but can't think about having relationships without having a sneaky giggle...

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Was Anna there when Charles took ill, or was it whilst Anna was staying with the Richardsons to help look after Roger? Maybe Anna'd normally have been the first port of call if someone took ill, but it's still very worrying that Charles went to his 15-year-old sister because he felt that he couldn't disturb Joey. The responsibility thing is weird, as you say, GotNerd. CS prefects are expected to take on a huge amount of responsibility, and Len in particular is expected to take on a lot at home as well, and yet Mary-Lou gets so embarrassed by Joan Baker's talk that she can't even say the word "boys" without going bright red.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Alison H wrote: The responsibility thing is weird, as you say, GotNerd. CS prefects are expected to take on a huge amount of responsibility, and Len in particular is expected to take on a lot at home as well, and yet Mary-Lou gets so embarrassed by Joan Baker's talk that she can't even say the word "boys" without going bright red. Yes, it's weirdly lopsided. It strikes me as in some ways as artificial as the thoroughly nasty sexualisation of very young girls today - both seem forced. The CS 'keeping them young' is of course a lot less damaging - and less likely to lead to 14-year-olds thinking pole-dancing is empowering - but there is something wilfully arbitrary about the fact that apparently mature, responsible, university-bound 18/19 year olds are expected to switch from this rather juvenile (and prissy) horror at Joan Baker's frank attitude to boys as potential boyfriends to finding themselves married within a year or two. (It changes for the better with Ailie and co.) Len is a particularly odd example - there's no suggestion of any interim between the 'young' CS-approved state of mind in relation to boys and her engagement to a much older man. Or are we supposed to assume she's had Joan-Baker style thoughts about boys as boyfriends, at least...? It just seems deeply peculiar to have EBD present a classic instance of a CS girl who's been 'kept young' by both school and home nonetheless getting engaged before she leaves school!

Author:	Len [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Len is a particularly odd example - there's no suggestion of any interim between the 'young' CS-approved state of mind in relation to boys and her engagement to a much older man. Or are we supposed to assume she's had Joan-Baker style thoughts about boys as boyfriends, at least...? It just seems deeply peculiar to have EBD present a classic instance of a CS girl who's been 'kept young' by both school and home nonetheless getting engaged before she leaves school! I suppose Len manages to fit the 'right' pattern by moving seamlessly from one chaste and respectable state (innocent schoolgirl) to another (innocent fiancée). And if Miss Annersley's chat about socks is all the marriage preparation advice she gets, she'll remain thoroughly pure-minded until Reg enlightens her on the wedding night. Where Joan Baker went 'wrong' was in entertaining lustful thoughts and behaviour outside the respectable structure of engagement and marriage. The modern view of Len - and I think most of us subscribe wholeheartedly to it! - would be that this leaves her thoroughly unprepared for married life, and far too sheltered to have made a really informed choice about her husband, and marriage in general.

Author:	Cel [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Len wrote: The modern view of Len - and I think most of us subscribe wholeheartedly to it! - would be that this leaves her thoroughly unprepared for married life, and far too sheltered to have made a really informed choice about her husband, and marriage in general. And there is more than one instance when Joey says exactly this - that Len is too young to make such a big decision, that she doesn't know any other boys outside of family and the Richardsons, and that they want her to experience life and meet a lot of people beofre she commits to Reg. It's a pity that EBD (or her ghost-writer...) seems to forget all about this in Prefects in her hurry to tie up all the loose ends.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I don't think Len mishandled Chas's pain any worse or differently to how most doctors and nurses would handle it in most Emergency Departments, that I'Ve worked in. I know most doctors would be asking a lot more questions and Chas didn't have any of the other symptoms they would be looking for. More than three quarters of the child patients who turn up with tummy pain is for a completely different reason than appendicitis. In fact I used to get annoyed with parents who don't give their child pain relief, when they're in pain. A cup of water won't badly impact on an operation, that badly. By the time, they've gotton to the hospital and all the tests and things are done, it would be at least a few hours after that drink of water. I think Len handled it reasonably well and did what most parents would do. I do wonder though how much their Mother's lengthy faint at the beginning of summer impacted on Chas to the point where he saw that his mother didn't cope with scary situations, but Len could and did. It was Len who held it together then, so as a ten year old kid, he may think, Len can cope with this, Mother probably won't. And Dad will just get angry, like he did with Mike. Added to which, your Father continually tells you Mother delicate and needs her rest and the last thing you want to do is cause Mother to faint or become unwell the way she has already done at the beginning of that summer or have Dad so angry he won't speak to you for three days. That to me is the saddest thing about the children's relationship with their parents is, that summer they have learnt; their parents can't cope with difficult or scary situations, but Len can, so lets go to Len for help, she can cope and she cares.

Author:	Lesley [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Actually I think that's right - it's not Charles' actions, or Len's actions that are at fault - it's the fact that a ten year old little boy in pain and feeling very unwell would think to find his older sister because he doesn't want to disturb his mother or anger his father. That's what makes it so sad.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Fiona Mc wrote: Len can cope with this, Mother probably won't. And Dad will just get angry, like he did with Mike. Added to which, your Father continually tells you Mother delicate and needs her rest and the last thing you want to do is cause Mother to faint or become unwell the way she has already done at the beginning of that summer or have Dad so angry he won't speak to you for three days. That to me is the saddest thing about the children's relationship with their parents is, that summer they have learnt; their parents can't cope with difficult or scary situations, but Len can, so lets go to Len for help, she can cope and she cares. Yes, well put. That's my real beef with the situation, not with the first aid, and the decisions of someone who isn't in fact an adult, anyway. It seems like a thoroughly unhealthy set of family dynamics which EBD stubbornly presents as 100% ideal - probably because of her close identification with Joey, and her own fantasies about being looked after, as we've been discussing. It drives me slightly crazy on poor Len's behalf that after Joey is - eventually! - woken, Len, shaken after a broken night and worry about whether she treated Charles correctly - is bustling around making her mother coffee and getting her a cardigan etc. And that's one of the occasions on which Joey tells Len she's a 'boon and a blessing', something she says also to Anna at some point, which suggests some kind of blurring between 'faithful handmaid' and daughter, b oth of whom are often presented as lovingly doing things for Joey! Again, I think it's the fantasy of a woman who simply had to cope alone rather too much in her own life, and genuinely thought the Maynard family was perfection, with a sensitive, successful writer surrounded by an all-powerful husband and dutiful, loving children... I agree it implies a degree of blame in Jack, to come back to the topic. Joey would never have set up a situation in which a sick child was encourage to seek out someone other than her. Although I suppose you could argue she must have colluded with this kind of dynamic being set up...

Author:	Pado [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
Probably the ordinary upper class child in that situation would have gone to Nanny, but there was none, so Len steps in to play that role. [Trying very hard not to superimpose contemporary parenting expectation on that era.]

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Doctors: Jack Maynard
I thought Anna was staying with the Richardsons, but I've just checked and the Richardsons had moved in with the Maynards by then, so Anna was back at Die Blumen and Charles could have gone to her. There's a description of Anna wearing a thick flannel nightie and having curlers in her hair, which isn't how I usually imagine her at all . Once Jack and Joey and Charles have left for the hospital Anna insists that Len must go to bed, and she more or less puts her to bed because she (Len)'s so tired by then, and then later on Con and Margot ask why Len didn't wake them so that they could help instead of taking it all on herself, but Len seems to have felt that it was all down to her because she's the eldest (by half an hour!). It's a very interesting chapter all round in terms of Maynard family dynamics. In What Katy Did At School, Dr Carr becomes concerned that Katy is missing out on her childhood because, as the eldest, she's taking on so much responsibility at home. It's a different set-up completely because Katy is acting as housekeeper whereas Len's away at school most of the time, but EBD seems to consider it a positive thing that Len expects and is expected to take on so much responsibility at an early age.