The CBB :: View topic - Death and Dying

“Madame, what is death?” asked Grizel suddenly.

“Just falling asleep with God – to awake in His presence – that’s all,” said Madge Russell quietly.

but interesting that the consolations of religion etc aren't enough, when it comes to it, for EBD's beloved favourite character...?

Ruth Herbert (the only pupil to die whilst a pupil?)

I'm currently at work and supposed to be working so I won't comment properly just now, but wanted to ask, when does Ruth Herbert die? I really don't remember it! Possibly it was cut from a paperback or something?

“It’s the Bishop of Minchampton for St. Mary’s, I know,” Len replied. “That was arranged ages ago. His three eldest girls were all here. Bess Herbert was one of the prefects when my cousin Bride Bettany—Maeve’s sister—was Head Girl.”
“So were Madge and Nan,” Con put in. “Not Ruth, of course, poor sweet.”
“Who was Ruth?” Ricki Fry demanded.
“Their youngest sister. She was at the school when it was on St. Briavel’s and later she went on to Glendower House. She was never out here,” Margot told her.
“Why didn’t she come?” Ruey asked curiously.
“Because the Easter before she was due to come, she was killed in a motor smash. One of their uncles had taken her out for a run and a lorry came crashing out of a side road and knocked the car clean across the road into a high wall. Both Ruth and her uncle were killed outright and the lorry overturned and the driver was so badly hurt, he died too.” This was Con, her eyes darkening as she remembered that tragedy.
“How simply ghastly!” Ricki exclaimed. “How long ago was it?”
“Five years or so. She would have been nineteen if she’d been alive now. She was just fourteen when it happened.” Len looked very grave, and Margot hurried to change the topic.
“The Herberts have always been keen on the school and as he’s the only Protestant bishop to have any connection with us, the Head said he ought to be asked. We knew he’d agreed to do it—the Head said so last term.”

Personally, I don't regard second sight/mediumship/clairwhatever as "occult".

Joey, darling, don’t despair. Phil is in God’s hands. She could not be safer.”
“I know, but it’s not a lot of comfort at this moment.”

Another 'offstage' death that intrigues me, because I'm not sure what EBD meant, is that of Eustacia's mother - we're told 'Eustacia mourned properly', but I'm not sure whether that implies 'really grieved' or 'mourned in a prim, proper way' - and we never hear anything at all about her response to her father's death shortly after...

Personally, I don't regard second sight/mediumship/clairwhatever as "occult". To me that term is only used for the dark side of the spectrum. Second sight etc. can bring such peace and comfort to people.
hac (aged 48)

As for "falling asleep etc." As a kid I used to be terrified by the kids' prayer "If I die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take". Now that used to scare me rigid and in fear of my life if I dropped off.

Considering how obsessed EBD was with formal religion, it's strange how there's very little mention of "official" religious figures being involved in scenes which involve death.

Other times EBD seems to want to explore the impact of bereavement - Jacynth. EBD does that very sensitively, I think. With Jacynth, and also Maria Marani, she makes it clear that the grieving and healing process will be a long one.

I'd add the deaths of Clem's parents to the 'pointless' category.

Does the lack of biological parents or close blood relatives in the case of so many CS mistresses and pupils mean that the CS community has to become a surrogate family in a very real way? And is that why EBD does it so often, so that people rely almost exclusively on the CS/the extended CS network/Freudesheim, with it at the centre of their lives, not just somewhere they work or are educated?

It's lovely in a way - for example, when Mrs Pertwee is taken seriously ill whilst in Boston, her daughters are able to be near her because Cornelia says they can stay with her. However, it's very odd how many people seem to be devoid of any sort of relatives or friends outside the school.

‘That’s pretty good proof of how long it is since you saw her… Gee, when I think of those first months with her! But that’s all over. She soon forgot all the romantic flummery once she reached Boston. When her momma died and she had to take hold with Ronny and Val, she did it real well. Those two think a mighty lot of Sister I can tell you. She’s a real nice girl got to be…’

Harry's parents are dead, Ron's family provide the loving home he needs, but Hermione's parents aren't really important in any way so we rarely see them.

Maybe part of it is that she clearly believes very strongly that 'normal' children and parents should be close and all-important to one another, and even the idea that one's home and family might not loom particularly large during a jam-packed termtime at boarding school is anathema to her...?

One of the later deaths which is handled well is, I think, Jessica Wayne's step-sister. I think the guilt she felt for treating Rosamund so badly at first, and the genuine fear she had that she was dying, was written very well, especially when you have everyone else busy getting happy and excited over the school's coming of age.

...you do get a sense that EBD totally approves of the way they lay down the law and uphold anti-newfangled standards of tidiness, politeness etc etc.

Author:	JB [ Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Death and Dying
Quote: “Madame, what is death?” asked Grizel suddenly. “Just falling asleep with God – to awake in His presence – that’s all,” said Madge Russell quietly. This is Madge’s explanation to Grizel and Joey in Head Girl of the Chalet School, when talking about a dying patient at the San. Death and near-death illnesses are ever present in the Chalet School series. In the first chapter of A School at the Chalet, we’re told that the Bettany parents died when Joey was a baby, leaving Madge and Dick orphans at the age of 12. In the early books, we’re aware of the possibility that Joey could die from an illness, particularly in Rivals of the Chalet School when her life is saved by the intervention of Robin singing The Red Sarafan to her. The opening of the San builds a link between its patients and the school’s pupils which endures for the rest of the series. As well as those with relatives in the San, the school has a number of orphans and pupils with only one parent among its number. We see death in many different forms, sometimes affecting central characters and at others involving people in “walk on” roles, for example: Relatives of pupils at the school who die through illness eg Jacynth’s Auntie, Margot Venables, Commander Carey and Doris Trelawney. A much-loved teacher who dies after retiring through ill health - Mlle Le Pattre. Off-stage deaths, which aren’t mentioned until some time afterwards eg Clem Barrass’s parents and Ruth Herbert (the only pupil to die whilst a pupil?) Violent death eg the Goldmanns and Vater Johann in Exile, and Mary Lou’s father in Three Go War-time deaths eg Luigia Ferrara and Suzanne Mercier. Deaths of people who aren’t otherwise characters in the series eg the San patient whose death prompts the conversation above from Head Girl and the car driver involved in an accident with Nina Rutherford in Two Sams. Do you agree with EBD’s approach to death and dying? Do you think this changes over the course of the series or is it consistent? Which death do you think EBD handled particularly well? Are there any which make you feel uncomfortable? How does EBD’s treatment of death compare to other authors of the time? Thanks to Emma A for this idea.

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Unsurprisingly, it's a completely Christian view of death and dying - the 'falling asleep to wake with God'/going to join other dead relatives philosophy - but most of the time EBD doesn't shy away from its human cost, at least in the earlier part of the series. Everyone is humanly consumed with grief over what looks to be Joey's death in Rivals, and even the very elderly die Grossmutter's, while Vater Johann and Herr Goldmann's violent deaths are treated with rightful horror as the result of human evil. (Might a later EBD have made more of Vater Johann dying a sort of martyr?) I do find the too-easy 'it was all for the best' approach to later sudden deaths of young people, like the other driver in the crash that involves Nina Rutherford in Two Sams much more problematic, though. I don't think the fact that he was grieving for his dead mother and hadn't another relative in the world to miss him makes his death somehow OK. And in any case, I really don't think it's for Joey to pronounce, even if she is trying to make Nina feel better. Plus Joey (who hasn't herself lost anyone close that she remembers) telling Nina, a brilliant musician who watched her father drown, that her music will be better from her having had this 'new experience' of someone else's death is outrageous! EBD does seem to dissent from Catholic orthodoxy with regard to purgatory, though - that very strongly influenced the way we were taught about death when I was a child. Even the souls of 'good' people who were going to go to heaven had to undergo a period of suffering in the afterlife first, and our remembrance of the dead was always coloured by the need to help them on their way by various prayers and masses. EBD stresses, on the other hand, that the dead are immediately reunited with other dead loved ones, and are immediately happy and 'well' - die Grossmutter is reunited with her lost child, Joey says Jacynth's aunt is with Jacynth's dead parents etc. I suppose it's another doctrinal difference she couldn't have included in an ecumenical school, but in a real-life situation, where the entire school was desperately upset by a death like Mademoiselle's, it would have made a certain amount of difference in how her death was responded to by Protestants and Catholics. I do also always find it interesting that the grief and bewilderment of what looks like Jack's death in war is combated with recourse to the occult in the form of whichever MacDonald twin has second sight! That seems to me hugely interesting, especially given Joey's own devout Catholicism (which takes a strong line on anything occult-related) and the fact that Bill, a more 'senior' Catholic and godmother to one of Joey's children utterly disapproves of the attempt to 'see' Jack (via his rosary, which only compounds the combination of organised religion and the occult!) Completely human and understandably from Joey's point of view - in her position, which of us wouldn't sell our souls for some grain of hope? - but interesting that the consolations of religion etc aren't enough, when it comes to it, for EBD's beloved favourite character...?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Sunglass wrote: but interesting that the consolations of religion etc aren't enough, when it comes to it, for EBD's beloved favourite character...? Personally, I always think that that scene was far more a plot device than any real comment on EBD's beliefs; there has to be "second sight" for something, and this gives her a purpose for including it (though why she felt the need to in the first place is beyond me; wasn't there enough going on in the book?) and it also stops a potentially young readership worrying about Jack. I do wonder if maybe her publishers forced her to include it because they thought that Jack's 'death' would be too traumatic for a child series otherwise - presumably at the time it was written, people would be looking for escapism from the war, rather than a reminder of all the men who'd died. So I think that maybe EBD was speaking through Bill, and disapproving of it all. Death in the earlier books is dealt with so realistically, I think. There is always the overshadow of the San, and so we do get lovely discussions like the one quoted, in which there seems to be a real sense of comfort and, I hesitate to say it, but I'm running late and can't think of a better word, warmth even amidst the upset of dying. Later on her views are a little odd, but in the early books it really is one of the most comforting lines I know related to death.

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
I'm not suggesting it was anythikng to do with EBD's own beliefs - though I'd be highly amused to think of her conducting seances! It's more that she includes a plot device that has her favourite, devout, morally-perfect central character engaging, while in desperate grief, in an activity that that character's religion regards as a form of serious wrongdoing. And that Joey is never blamed for it by the author, despite registering Bill's disapproval. (And despite the fact that Joey herself is quite certain about even fortune-telling with cards being wrong in New House...?) Sure, it's entirely possible EBD had some other reason for including second sight in the novel, but it still seems interesting that she includes a horrific trauma to Joey, of all people, in this plot device - it would have been an entirely different situation if whichever MacDonald it was 'saw' that a minor character's RAF cousin, say, was safe, or 'saw' a runaway CS girl's hiding place. Anyway, sorry OT. But it did strike me as interesting that Joey, who is so devout, and such a practised and generally sensitive breaker of death-related news to others (Nina, Jacynth, others), cannot cope with the apparent death of her husband with religion alone. Very human, as I said before, but all other characters have to cope with uncertainty and death with only religion, and it made me think.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
I find the comments about the man who died in the car crash very unsettling, but I think the best way to look at it is that Nina had some sort of "survivor guilt" and Joey was just trying to make her feel better. I'm not overly keen on the treatment of Margot Venables's death, either: Daisy and Primula are packed off out of the way, and Margot just seems to give up and drift away. EBD and EJO both seem to have interesting "mystical" ideas about the Scottish Highlands - possibly a hangover from a previous generation's fascination with the area due to Queen Victoria's writings about Balmoral - and I think that EBD was just looking for a way to bring this idea of mystical Celtic second sight into a CS book. However, it makes me uneasy: I try to keep an open mind about that sort of thing myself, but really I don't think it was appropriate to raise the hopes of a desperate, grief-stricken young widow (or someone who thought she was a widow) like that, and I'm surprised that Hilda went along with it. Other than that, treatment of death is mainly along the lines of Grossmutter Mensch looking like a young girl again as she drifted off to Paradise (incidentally, why on earth were Madge and Joey at her deathbed?) where her husband and daughter were waiting for her, and people being comforted by the knowledge that even if Naomi/Professor Richardson/whoever else should die then they'll've gone to heaven and been reunited with their lost loved ones. It would have been difficult for EBD to say much else in books intended for children, though, especially as the early books were written at a time when it was much more common for death to come suddenly and or at an early age (as it did to EBD's brother) than it is now, and even as an adult it gives you some comfort to think that way about a loved one's death. She doesn't really take the stiff-upper-lip approach - people are expected to be brave (Robin, Bette, Mary-Lou when Doris dies) but are also, generally, allowed to mourn. And I think Mary-Lou's reaction to her father's death is dealt with very well: she's sad because her mother and grandmother are sad, but doesn't feel grief-stricken herself because she hardly knew him, and feels a little guilty about that. One last thing (sorry about the long waffle!) - why do we never get to see anyone's reactions to the deaths of members of Jack's family?

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Death and Dying http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6890

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
She can "do" death very well - look at Auntie's Letter, which makes me cry every time. And I cry at the deathbed scene in "Rivals", too....

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
JB wrote: Ruth Herbert (the only pupil to die whilst a pupil?) I'm currently at work and supposed to be working so I won't comment properly just now, but wanted to ask, when does Ruth Herbert die? I really don't remember it! Possibly it was cut from a paperback or something?

Author:	hac61 [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Personally, I don't regard second sight/mediumship/clairwhatever as "occult". To me that term is only used for the dark side of the spectrum. Second sight etc. can bring such peace and comfort to people. I believe very strongly that when we die we go immediately to a place where we can rejoin our ancestors, friends etc. and continue our journey. If I didn't, I wouldn't have made it through the last 14 months since my aunt died or the last 47 years since my father died. I love Madge's comment about death and it has brought me real comfort over the years. I'm not afraid of dying, only how I'll die. hac (aged 48)

Author:	JB [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Sarah G-G wrote: Quote: I'm currently at work and supposed to be working so I won't comment properly just now, but wanted to ask, when does Ruth Herbert die? I really don't remember it! Possibly it was cut from a paperback or something? It's in Ruey and it was cut from the paperback. The girls are discussing who's going to dedicate the school chapels: Quote: “It’s the Bishop of Minchampton for St. Mary’s, I know,” Len replied. “That was arranged ages ago. His three eldest girls were all here. Bess Herbert was one of the prefects when my cousin Bride Bettany—Maeve’s sister—was Head Girl.” “So were Madge and Nan,” Con put in. “Not Ruth, of course, poor sweet.” “Who was Ruth?” Ricki Fry demanded. “Their youngest sister. She was at the school when it was on St. Briavel’s and later she went on to Glendower House. She was never out here,” Margot told her. “Why didn’t she come?” Ruey asked curiously. “Because the Easter before she was due to come, she was killed in a motor smash. One of their uncles had taken her out for a run and a lorry came crashing out of a side road and knocked the car clean across the road into a high wall. Both Ruth and her uncle were killed outright and the lorry overturned and the driver was so badly hurt, he died too.” This was Con, her eyes darkening as she remembered that tragedy. “How simply ghastly!” Ricki exclaimed. “How long ago was it?” “Five years or so. She would have been nineteen if she’d been alive now. She was just fourteen when it happened.” Len looked very grave, and Margot hurried to change the topic. “The Herberts have always been keen on the school and as he’s the only Protestant bishop to have any connection with us, the Head said he ought to be asked. We knew he’d agreed to do it—the Head said so last term.”

Author:	JennieP [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Armada

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Ah, that would explain why I didn't remember her death! Thank you JB! Joins Jennie in thumping Armada's silly editors Although I'm now thinking I also mixed her character up with someone else but never mind...

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
I'm not really sure what the point of that was. It would have made an interesting, although very sad, storyline to see a group of CS girls having to cope with the death of a classmate - surely in complete contrast to the heartless response of some of the Kingscote girls when Marie whatshername dies - but why mention years after the event that one of the pupils at the rarely-mentioned British branch of the school had died ?

Author:	shesings [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
It might have been put in when EBD realised she had forgotten about Ruth for several books. I do feel she was very aware of death but that wasn't unusual in her generation. Even in the fifties, I can remember people saying things like "I had eleven of a family and reared eight but lost twa laddies in the War" . But don't get me started about her alleged 'Scottish ' characters. I wince every time I read that description of the MacDonalds in full Bonnie Prince Charlie Highland regalia a la shortbread tin! And I've often wondered if she knew how to pronounce Bethune. She has bits about how to say 'Carola' and 'Grizel' but I don't think anyone ever says "this is Lesley Beaton but she spells it Bethune".

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
One of the deaths that really gets to me is Herr Marani's. I know that it's "off-screen" - but the fact that we never know how he died, or what happens to him, beyond the fact that he died in a concentration camp, is both sad and terrifying. Even though we don't really get to 'see' Maria Marani's point of view over it, I think EBD does a good job of portraying a girl who is waiting for the inevitable news that her beloved father is dead. And I also think it's realistic that she never really recovers from that terror (at least, until she gets married, in true EBD fashion!)

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
hac61 wrote: Personally, I don't regard second sight/mediumship/clairwhatever as "occult". Neither do I, but Catholicism regards them as much the same thing and takes quite a hard line on them. It's seen as a sin against the first commandment, and as seeking to divine the knowledge/the future from a non-God source - plus I think there's an argument about it putting the soul in a vulnerable state, when someone invites in a form of the supernatural that isn't God. I'd agree with Sunglass that this makes Joey's association with second sight a really interesting thing for EBD to do - if someone had told me before I read Highland Twins that it featured a supernatural storyline with an action being taken that Bill strongly disapproved of, I would have sworn it involved anyone other than Joey. I'd link it to a passage that's not strictly about death, but also interesting - and very real. When Phil is very ill, there's this exchange between Hilda and Joey in Two Sams: Quote: Joey, darling, don’t despair. Phil is in God’s hands. She could not be safer.” “I know, but it’s not a lot of comfort at this moment.” That seems to me to come from the same bleak place in Joey that clutched at second sight - there are times when the consolations of religion aren't that consoling, and I think it's realistic and quite adult of EBD to explore that, even very slightly, in her favourite character in a series that is generally very orthodox in its Christianity. But I think it's the fact that EBD can acknowledge that that quite dark truth also makes me cross about how the death of the driver in the Two Sams accident is smoothed over as 'for the best' by Joey. I'm not sure I can see it as an attempt to assuage survivor's guilt on Nina's part, because she hasn't time to feel any - Joey tells her what to think immediately, without giving her space to react in her own way. I mean, she has a terrible habit of 'breezily' pre-empting other people's responses anyway, but I think this is out of line, and that Nina needs space and time to deal with it in her own way. Another 'offstage' death that intrigues me, because I'm not sure what EBD meant, is that of Eustacia's mother - we're told 'Eustacia mourned properly', but I'm not sure whether that implies 'really grieved' or 'mourned in a prim, proper way' - and we never hear anything at all about her response to her father's death shortly after...

Author:	JB [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: Another 'offstage' death that intrigues me, because I'm not sure what EBD meant, is that of Eustacia's mother - we're told 'Eustacia mourned properly', but I'm not sure whether that implies 'really grieved' or 'mourned in a prim, proper way' - and we never hear anything at all about her response to her father's death shortly after... I imagined that to mean that she mourned rather than grieved eg wore black and observed the proprieties (?) and that because her aunt arrived soon after her father's death, she was caught up in events and had to leave Oxford. I felt it showed how Eustacia behaved properly (as she saw it) in any situation.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
I'd second JB's interpretation of the quote - though it makes me feel sorrier still for Eustacia. Even just trying to imagine what Herr Marani went through is horrible, and actually I've never tried before. I don't think that EBD possibly could have explored Maria's feelings anymore; how do you relate to someone who knows that they've lost their parent and can't prove it, in such a horrific way, unless you've been through it yourself? Personally, I always thought that Mlle was killed off rather abruptly. I can see how the move to France might have prompted a worsening medical effect, but it was all terribly sudden, and rather brushed over in the books for such a major character.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Considering how obsessed EBD was with formal religion, it's strange how there's very little mention of "official" religious figures being involved in scenes which involve death. I'm sure someone would have gone to ask a priest to come to the Mensches' home when they realised that Grossmutter was dying - Gertlieb might even have done that first, especially as she'd been asked not to alert the rest of the family until Bernhilda and Kurt had left - but it's never mentioned. We never see the San's chaplains (who presumably knew the people at the San and the school fairly well, even if the local ministers didn't) "in action" visiting seriously ill people or comforting bereaved relatives and friends either. I assume it's because CS people are meant to turn to each other for support, especially when they're in a foreign country and not really part of the local community, but I find it odd that people who are so involved with religion never seem to a turn to a religious minister for help in terms of crisis.

Author:	Pado [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Some random thoughts: Re falling asleep with God: isn't it the current recommendation to avoid telling children that death is like falling asleep, so that they won't acquire a fear of sleep? Re AF's characters' "cold" response to Marie's death: Not politically correct, but very realistic, I thought. Of course, I only read this as an adult, so I might find it more disturbing as a child, and I'm a terrible person...but there's something very "true" about the reaction of the girls. I did find the response of whichever twin it was who refused to sign the card troubling - I've been well trained to do the right thing on the outside no matter how I feel on the inside! EBD does "dying" well, not so convinced about "death." Auntie's letter gets me every time. Grossmutter's concern about not ruining the wedding plays true. Even Annis's terror on the sea ladder evokes a response. But Mary Lou being distracted from her pain at her mother's death to deal with a naughty middle? Not so much.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
hac61 wrote: Personally, I don't regard second sight/mediumship/clairwhatever as "occult". To me that term is only used for the dark side of the spectrum. Second sight etc. can bring such peace and comfort to people. hac (aged 48) I feel much the same about the 'occult' but other people feel much more strongly. One of the first short stories I sold to 'My Weekly' magazine in the early 90s featured a gentle ghost. I was told firmly that they would not be able to bill it as a 'ghost story' or they would be inundated with letters from readers complaing about tampering with the occult! Re the way death is dealt with: as a child I found it comforting to have that 'falling asleep' idea (EJO is similarly gentle about it) but agree that the later CS books are a bit dismissive about the poor victims, but then they're 'only' bit part actors!

Author:	delrima [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
As for "falling asleep etc." As a kid I used to be terrified by the kids' prayer "If I die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take". Now that used to scare me rigid and in fear of my life if I dropped off.

Author:	Amanda M [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Diverting slightly, I remember at my primary school (Church of England) when our local vicar came to talk to us. He told us that nobody could see the face of God and live. I used to have nightmares about seeing God's face in my dreams at night and then dying in my sleep. I had a fear of sleeping for a long time after that!

Author:	judithR [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
delrima wrote: As for "falling asleep etc." As a kid I used to be terrified by the kids' prayer "If I die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take". Now that used to scare me rigid and in fear of my life if I dropped off. Slightly off topic but that verse has been censored in, I think , New Anglican Hymnal which our family service uses. They have, however, left "elect from every nation" (sung on Calvin's anniversary this year!), "con-substantial, co-eternal" and "social joys"!

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Alison H wrote: Considering how obsessed EBD was with formal religion, it's strange how there's very little mention of "official" religious figures being involved in scenes which involve death. Now imagining Joey having to have an exorcism conducted by a priest at Plas Gwyn, like something out of The Exorcist, because of her brush with the supernatural in the from of second sight! I do think it's interesting - this was being discussed a bit in the Highly Strung/Delicate thread lately - that EBD simply includes so much death and bereavement in the CS. It's not always centre stage, but it's always there, apparently just because this was something she wanted to explore, despite her young readership. I know the San means a certain amount of death on the horizon, and EBD needs a certain amount of parental deaths to supply Die Rosen, the school and later Freudesheim with wards and girls who wouldn't normally have been sent to the CS. But there are lots of situations where there seems no particular reason to have written someone as an orphan (Kathie Ferrars is one that comes to mind) in a series overloaded with them already, or to have killed off someone (Bette's husband seems an unecessary added death to Ted Humphries', or Ruth Herbert, or Mr Dwight in Two Sams.) I can understand deaths like Elisaveta's husband and others as reinforcing the horrors of war, and some (Doris Trelawney's) serve to 'free' a central character, but some really serve no dramatic effect at all! So I can only conclude EBD just wanted to write about them...?

Author:	JayB [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
I'd add the deaths of Clem's parents to the 'pointless' category. Other times the deaths of parents/guardians are the reason for the girl in question being sent to the School - Eustacia - and also the source of the girl's problems - Annis, Prunella. Other times EBD seems to want to explore the impact of bereavement - Jacynth. EBD does that very sensitively, I think. With Jacynth, and also Maria Marani, she makes it clear that the grieving and healing process will be a long one.

Author:	Liz K [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
JayB wrote: Other times EBD seems to want to explore the impact of bereavement - Jacynth. EBD does that very sensitively, I think. With Jacynth, and also Maria Marani, she makes it clear that the grieving and healing process will be a long one. Those two were particularly well done, I want to cry every time I read about Joey leaving Jacynth alone to read Auntie's last letter.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Most of it's cut out of the pb, but there's a very touching scene in Trials in which Evvy, more than ten years after her first fiancé was killed in the war, tells Joey that she's engaged again, and explains that this relationship is inevitably different from the one that she had with her first love but that doesn't make it any less special. Joey gets very emotional herself, and says how glad she is that Evvy's found happiness again after the tragedy she suffered. I can understand that EBD included the wartime deaths, even those which aren't a major part of the series - Evvy's first fiancé, Miss Durrant's husband and daughter, the reference to Mary-Lou having lost an uncle in the war, Carla's husband and son - to show the effects of the war, but some of the other deaths really don't seem to be there for any reason. Maybe she just meant to show that death is a part of life or something like that, but a lot of the deaths are in accidents, rather than e.g. the deaths of Mary-Lou and Grizel's grandmothers, which are very sad but to be expected (hope that sounds OK).

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
JayB wrote: I'd add the deaths of Clem's parents to the 'pointless' category. Yes, I'd forgotten them! Is the prevalence of death, meaning that people's closest or parental/quasi-parental relationships are with people other than their biological parents, something akin to the relative lack of prominent priest figures in the strongly Christian CS world? Alison H was suggesting up the thread that the lack of 'official' ministers of organised religion was because CS people are supposed to turn to one another for support in a crisis, which i think makes sense. (And it's true Joey takes on many traditional priestly duties - support, moral guidance, presence at sickbeds, breaking news of a death etc - so that kind of thing remains 'in-house'.) Does the lack of biological parents or close blood relatives in the case of so many CS mistresses and pupils mean that the CS community has to become a surrogate family in a very real way? And is that why EBD does it so often, so that people rely almost exclusively on the CS/the extended CS network/Freudesheim, with it at the centre of their lives, not just somewhere they work or are educated? She just shows us so often someone losing a family member, often their last family member, and being absorbed into the CS 'family instead - from Biddy O'Ryan, through Stacie, Jacynth Hardy and Ruey Richardson, to Mary-Lou turning to Joey when her mother is dying, to Matey losing her sister.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Maybe EBD didn't want to bring in too many priest/vicar figures because they would have been men and she doesn't deal that brilliantly with men? These days she could have had female protestant clergy who would have fitted in much better, though I suppose as a convert RC she would probably not approve. Pity really, Margot could have become an excellent Anglican bishop instead of a missionary! Killing off someone unnecessarily at least absolves the character of the need to get pregnant or marry a doctor, which are the career paths of choice.

Author:	JayB [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Also, because clergy would only have been peripheral figures, not present on a day to day basis, the reader, and the other characters, wouldn't know them well. Having a bereaved character comforted by a clergyman therefore wouldn't have the same impact as having the character comforted by Hilda or Joey or Mary Lou or some other character whom the reader knows well. We can identify with both Joey and Jacynth, or both Mary Lou and Jessica, and we see the impact on the character doing the comforting, as well as the character being comforted. And the sort of 'homely' situations in which these scenes take place- ML helping Jessica to pack, for example - couldn't happen if a man was present rather than another girl or woman.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Sunglass wrote: Does the lack of biological parents or close blood relatives in the case of so many CS mistresses and pupils mean that the CS community has to become a surrogate family in a very real way? And is that why EBD does it so often, so that people rely almost exclusively on the CS/the extended CS network/Freudesheim, with it at the centre of their lives, not just somewhere they work or are educated? That would make a lot of sense. Carla von Flugen (are we ever told her married name?) even says that the CS is her only real home now, after losing her husband and baby ... although seeing as we never see her working at Freudesheim, which was the idea, I'm never sure what she's doing then! Miss Durrant/Mrs Redmond returns to the school after losing her husband and daughter, and Herr Laubach moves into a sort of CS almshouse after he retires. It's lovely in a way - for example, when Mrs Pertwee is taken seriously ill whilst in Boston, her daughters are able to be near her because Cornelia says they can stay with her. However, it's very odd how many people seem to be devoid of any sort of relatives or friends outside the school. IIRC, the school is even named official guardian to Jacynth and to the 2 younger Pertwees, when none of them'd even been there more than a term, and Madge ends up being appointed Juliet's guardian. The support network is lovely, though. I don't suppose it seemed like that if you were applying for a job as a mistress and were up against an Old Girl , but there's this feeling that, wherever you are in the world, you'll always be able to turn to a fellow Old Girl for help if you need it.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
It is a lovely community feeling, which I think is fostered further by the lack of 'official' figures in the books, but a very inward "looking after your own" attitude. It must have been difficult for people outside it, but for those inside it would have been a real comfort, I think. As a child, I never questioned the amount of deaths in the books, though I owned barely any of the Swiss books (well, I still don't, technically they belong to mum, as she likes to point out) which is where it really seems to kick in. In the Tirol books there are often good reasons behind the deaths; Robin's mother so that she can attend the CS, Captain and Mrs Carrick to clear up the Juliet storyline etc. It's in the later books that they seem a little more pointless.

Author:	Abi [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
It's interesting - I think the idea of the school as a family was very important, and maybe that's how EBD felt a school ought to be. The same for the whole old girls network thing. I think for her that was the ideal. Just as a matter of interest, I think this is also a common thing for the GO genre - I (obsessive as I am ) have started charting various things in GO books and so far, within 109 books, 32% of the heroines start the book with either one or both parents dead and of those 40% are orphans. And that's not counting those whose parents die later on. I wonder whether maybe it was seen as a way to make sure the girls had to identify fully with the school, or to make the school the place where their life was based?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Death and Dying
Alison H wrote: It's lovely in a way - for example, when Mrs Pertwee is taken seriously ill whilst in Boston, her daughters are able to be near her because Cornelia says they can stay with her. However, it's very odd how many people seem to be devoid of any sort of relatives or friends outside the school. I just sometimes find myself thinking it's like one of those 'family' cults that end up distancing you from the outside world, and absorbing all your emotions and loyalties so that you can never leave.. Maybe those who wanted to seek help from someone with no connection to the CS were burned inside a wicker man in the sunken garden, and it was explained away as 'one of Gaudenz's bonfires'... Largely OT, but touched off by what Alison H said about Corney taking on the Pertwees - are we supposed to think Corney's speech gone to pot between the time we last saw her and when we meet her again in Reunion? This is her on Yseult: Quote: ‘That’s pretty good proof of how long it is since you saw her… Gee, when I think of those first months with her! But that’s all over. She soon forgot all the romantic flummery once she reached Boston. When her momma died and she had to take hold with Ronny and Val, she did it real well. Those two think a mighty lot of Sister I can tell you. She’s a real nice girl got to be…’ And then she says Joey ‘don’t look a day over 25' and EBD writes out phonetically that she pronounces 'American' as ‘Amurrican’, which really struck me. I don't remember EBD registering her speech that way during her schooldays and I just don't remember her and Evadne getting ticked off particularly for the way they spoke, only for their slang - certainly not compared to Biddy O'Ryan, who's continually corrected. But of course EBD (judging by that outrageous passage in Two Sams where Miss Ferrars tells Samantha that she's come to CS in part to learn to speak her native language 'properly!) has become much more judgemental about US English by the Swiss books. I'm just not sure whether we're supposed to think Corney's language has deteriorated since her schooldays? (Or does EBD just think something like 'she's a real nice girl got to be' is standard US English? Although she lives in Boston, where, according to Miss Ferrars, the English is as 'pure' as British RP...) Sorry, OT.