... I find some of her ideas about class a bit worrisome, like her apparent belief that the classes look inherently different. She says that Gay Lambert, when she runs away, could never be mistaken for a 'cottage girl', even though she's wearing a 'disgraceful old raincoat and beret', but that 'there was no mistaking what she was' because of her 'highbred little face' and 'graceful carriage'...

... Also Biddy’s “Irishness”, rather than the fact that she comes from a working class family, becomes her distinguishing feature: we’re always being told about her Irish lilt etc, and I wonder if she might have been portrayed differently had she been English (i.e. like most of the other staff members, so that her being Irish wouldn’t have marked her out, so to speak), and spoken with e.g. a broad Brummie accent.

She says that Gay Lambert, when she runs away, could never be mistaken for a 'cottage girl', even though she's wearing a 'disgraceful old raincoat and beret', but that 'there was no mistaking what she was' because of her 'highbred little face' and 'graceful carriage'...

I fear I don't agree, Emma A, about Irish accents being considered 'deightful' and not being associated with any class - though it's very interesting that that's your experience. I think that's true of some people, but my experience in England has often been that the automatic association (among the upper-middle and upper classes) of an Irish accent with working classness/drunkenness or fecklessness etc is, unfortunately, alive and well!

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, in that I meant that for EBD, the Irish accent is meant to be charming and delightful.

It's funny, isn't it, that just about the only 'English' accent from a pupil which isn't RP comes from Jack Lambert's occasional forays into 'Cheshire' (apart from Rosamund and Joan). Yet the Scottish girls who are presumably of the same class as the English pupils, and who would quite probably have spoken RP too, generally have some kind of Scots 'burr'. I'm not just talking about the Macdonald twins, who are parodies just as appalling as Biddy's 'Oirishness', but girls like Kathie Robertson.

I was always fascinated by the idea that you can tell from looking at someone/talking to them what class they are, regardless of how much money they have at the moment. I can tell easily how rich someone is, but could never figure out how rich their grandparents or even parents were.

But as to what the the CS girls might have had to put up with in reverse snobbery/teasing at thier accents ... I am once again reminded of the Mitfords and the Mitford voice. I think Debo hated/quit war work because all the other people would make fun of her voice!

In return, she asked for loyalty to their Club, habits of regular washing and cleanliness, honesty in act and speech, and generosity in handing on their enjoyment to other boys.

I was always fascinated by the idea that you can tell from looking at someone/talking to them what class they are, regardless of how much money they have at the moment. I can tell easily how rich someone is, but could never figure out how rich their grandparents or even parents were.

I definitely missed out on some of the subtleties - I was very surprised to learn on here that the Grandma in Gay, for example, was portrayed as lower class

Post subject: Re: Themes: Class Reply with quote
Sadly I fear that EMBD's snobbishness come out even when Biddy gets her Doctor. Remember she doesn't get an English[i]Doctor, so I'm very much afraid [i]foreign[i] aristocracy must have been inferior in her book.
Sadly I fear that EMBD's snobbishness come out even when Biddy gets her Doctor. Remember she doesn't get an [i]English[i]Doctor, so I'm very much afraid [i]foreign[i] aristocracy must have been inferior in her book.

Yes - do we know what EBD sounded like as an adult? Are there any recordings of her? From her obsession with beautiful RP voices, I can never decide if she had acquired one herself and was secretly vain about it, or if she had never lost a regional accent she didn't like, making Hilda a fantasy alter-ego?

Debo tells Paddy she was “in the garden talking to a friend, too loud I expect as per, when a man came up and said Excuse me I've read about a 1930s voice but I've never heard one, do keep on talking please. So I did, lorst and gorn forever & he was doubled up and so was I & in the end he said well I'll give you one thing, you haven't got a stiff upper lip”

I think she was on television in the sixties, but I don't think there is a recording of it Wasn't that the inspiration for Joey Goes on Television?

"Chalet Club Newsletter for July 1964

On January 2nd I had a new experience - I was on Television in the programme "Tonight"... it was most interesting. First the official interviewer, Brian Redhead, met me and explained to me the sort of thing I should be expected to answer. The editress, Elizabeth Cowley, came along and joined in and then we were escorted to the studio... a great room filled with cameras moving about the floor and brilliant lighting. Cliff Michelmore was incharge of the programme as usual and when we sat down, we found he was about to interview someone with some most beautiful fowls. We were all warned to be prepared to leap to the rescue if the birds became restive and showed signs of scuttling. Far from it, they seemed dazed by their unusual surroundings and declined to show off in the least. Then came a recorded interview with the Astronomer Royal, and finally myself. Everyone I know who saw me has informed me that I might have been accustomed to being interviewed daily. I seemed so calm. It wasn't like that, you know. It was simply that there was such a friendly atmosphere about the whole place I couldn't have felt nervy if I had tried."

To this day a few people still remember that interview. And apparently Elinor did not exaggerate in saying that she had 'seemed so calm'. By general agreement she really had spoken extremely well. 'Unexpectedly well' was the verdict of Mrs Phyllis Matthewman; but another friend was in no way surprised, having always considered her 'a larger than life, flamboyant sort of person'; and Miss Farr Smith commented that 'Elinor could make a most amusing speech, just like that - anytime'.

That 'gift of the gab' was something else that Elinor shared with Joey, who naturally was to follow her author on to television. And Joey too discovered that 'thanks to [the interviewer's] experienced questioning and her own lack of real shyness, it was ... easy enough' (CCNL 1968).

For Elinor, the thrill of being on 'Tonight' was followed the next day by an official tour of the Children's Book Exhibition at Olympia, which she visited at the invitation of WH Smith and Son. This, not being a new experience, 'wasn't quite such an excitement as the Television'. Nevertheless, 'everyone was delightfully kind', and Elinor write that she had 'thoroughly enjoyed it'. No doubt too, her TV appearance the previous night had given an extra boost to the Chalet School for, as she herself puts it: 'Honestly, I signed autographs until my hand was aching!'

Post subject: Re: Themes: Class Reply with quote
KatS wrote:
Quote:
I was always fascinated by the idea that you can tell from looking at someone/talking to them what class they are, regardless of how much money they have at the moment. I can tell easily how rich someone is, but could never figure out how rich their grandparents or even parents were.

Sorry - wanted to make it clear that (except in the case of really grinding poverty) I was referring to being able to tell how rich people were from their clothes etc, not from their physique.

But, as with with maths, it is clear that EBD is not strong on post-New Synthesis biology. Heredity is not her strong point (Robin and Adrienne being a case in point). But to be fair, most of the key texts that brought genetics firmly into the biological fold, and put an end to more 'eugenics'-like thought, weren't published until the 40's, and DNA not discovered until the 50s, and so it probably passed her by.

Love to know more about that subject. Anything simplified version of it you could suggest?

That's why all the comments about the Maynard girls in second-hand clothing, and Gay in her disgraceful raincoat, and Joan's new and expensive but not Chalet dresses throw me a little, because in my (fairly limited) experience, newer more expensive clothes = more money = higher class

But to be fair, most of the key texts that brought genetics firmly into the biological fold, and put an end to more 'eugenics'-like thought, weren't published until the 40's, and DNA not discovered until the 50s, and so it probably passed her by.

"Chalet Club Newsletter for July 1964

On January 2nd I had a new experience - I was on Television in the programme "Tonight"... it was most interesting. First the official interviewer, Brian Redhead, met me and explained to me the sort of thing I should be expected to answer.

And following on from that, what do non-British readers pick up on? Presumably you aren't attuned to the same class-related things, and what riled/rattled a upper working-class Brit like me, might just wash over the heads of others.

I'm sorry, I've just realised I've written a thesis here

Many of the girls had the same problems with Elma Conroy and she was from the same class as them and she was never truly accepted until she changed.

I was never offended by the way EBD wrote Biddy's accent purely because hearing someone else talk with a different accent can make words sound really different. I can remember the first time I went to Nth Ireland, I had an impossible time understanding some people, there accents were so thick [...]So EBD writing words like they sound to me was never a parody but simply trying to show how a different accent sounds to some people. And even Deira descends into Irishness when she's upset.

prosperous 'shop' background in Tirol, but, even though she's sneered at by Thekla, EBD never suggests for a moment there's anything dubious about her class provenance.

I can't find my copy of Gay, but given what KatS said earlier, I really mean to dig it out and see what made me assume Grandma was working class. It must have been speech/cadence, but I can't remember.

The English was not all it should be; but the writing was unexpectedly pretty. She was not to know that in her youth Grandma had been first schoolroom-maid in the household of Lord Midgeley, and, later, lady's-maid to the young ladies, as they had refused to part form their ‘dear Becky’ until she left them to be married. Like the shrewd Yorkshirewoman she was, she had picked up all she could from them, deliberately forming her writing on that of the old-fashioned governess who had educated them. Lady Burt and the Hon. Alice Midgeley still wrote to their Becky at regular intervals, and visited her at least once a year, and she was proud of the connection.

I hope it’s as you like it,’ she added, pouring it out with an inward shudder for its blackness.
But Grandma eyed it with approval. ‘That’s a good cup of tea,’ she sad, removing the black kid gloves she had donned for the occasion.

"Well, you know when I talk to Tor's sisters [who are more essex-sounding than me], they sound just like all my Australian cousins. In fact I'd say Cockney was posh Australian."

Essex as it is spoken in places like White Knotley, Thaxted or Tiptree is completely different.

And of course Dick's attitude was pretty much the standard one for the time.

And then, when she comes to see Bill, there's the ultimate UK class marker - how she takes her tea! Note that Bill has correctly predicted (and presumably warned the maids in advance, though in precisely what words I can't imagine!) how someone of Grandma's class likes her tea:

Oh yes! I'm not disputing that. It was more that I was interested in EBDs idea of 'worthy' vs 'unworthy' lower class. In the UK books, there isn't this separation between picturesque country lower-class and urban lower class I don't think. Instead, the stress is between those who ape their 'betters' and those who don't.

I was assuming the disjunction between poor James Kettlewell's expensive paper/high-flown English and, on the other hand, his poor hand-writing suggested money but low origins and no education. Actually, aren't we pretty much told that when Madge, Joey and Grizel meet him on the train, anyway? He's some kind of wool manufacturer, speaks regional English, drops his hs and doesn't realise he's not supposed to address ladies in railway carriages, far less offer them gooseberries or subsequently propose to women who are socially out of his league!

BTW, I’ve always wondered how Rosamund Lilley manages to have only a “slight Hampshire accent” when she grew up in the house next door to Joan Baker’s. They went to the same school and had friends in common - surely they should also have the same accent?!

BTW, I’ve always wondered how Rosamund Lilley manages to have only a “slight Hampshire accent” when she grew up in the house next door to Joan Baker’s. They went to the same school and had friends in common - surely they should also have the same accent?!

In the UK books, there isn't this separation between picturesque country lower-class and urban lower class I don't think. Instead, the stress is between those who ape their 'betters' and those who don't.

Oh yes! I'm not disputing that. It was more that I was interested in EBDs idea of 'worthy' vs 'unworthy' lower class. In the UK books, there isn't this separation between picturesque country lower-class and urban lower class I don't think. Instead, the stress is between those who ape their 'betters' and those who don't.

But I always very much like Grizel mentally registering the difference between Madge's warm human response to him, and her stepmother's chilly good breeding. I suppose you could see it as an aspect of Madge being entirely secure in her own unassailable class position, even if she's currently in fairly precarious financial circumstances - someone rather lower down the ladder, in equally impoverished circumstances but trying to cling to 'respectability', might be more likely to repulse James K's overtures. It's one of the places where class trumps money, but at least it expresses itself here in a warm, humane way.

The little face was more square than oval, with a low broad brow and proud exquisite eyebrows.
The eyes were of a colour which he could never decide on; afterwards
he used to allege obscurely that they were the colour of everything
in Spring. There was a delicate pallor in the cheeks, and the face
bore signs of suffering and care, possibly even of hunger; but for
all that there was youth there, eternal and triumphant! Not youth such
as he had known it, but youth with all history behind it, youth with
centuries of command in its blood and the world's treasures of beauty
and pride in its ancestry. Strange, he thought, that a thing so fine
should be so masterful. He felt abashed in every inch of him.

I run a boys' club for younger boys and teach them woodwork among other things. I told them one night all about our Sale and happened to mention my own dolls'-houses. Next class, the leaders came and told me they wanted to have a go at houses themselves. When the houses were finished we had a show and families came and admired them. The kids asked to see the one I was doing for you folk this year and I had to tell them I had no time for my own work now¬adays. Result – they got into a huddle and then told me they wanted me to choose any twelve I liked of theirs to send. Decent of them, for they're none of them wealthy. Most are the kids of dock labourers and that sort of thing.

My point being that I think this comment about Gay was more of a throwaway line on EBD's part, writing as she found elsewhere, rather than being the result of some long-thought out opinion on class.

do we know what EBD sounded like as an adult?

I actually think it is very much the case today - people much prefer to look/have sympathy for say rural/pastoral African communities (and want to, for example, spend their gap year there), than a Nairobi or Jo-burg slum. The latter type of inner-city poverty is often too hard to stomach, and makes people switch off, whilst the former can stir enough sympathy to want to 'do' something.

My point being that I think this comment about Gay was more of a throwaway line on EBD's part, writing as she found elsewhere, rather than being the result of some long-thought out opinion on class.

And while absolutely, you come across it quite a lot in a certain kind of early 20thc novel, there's a bit of a difference between having John Buchan trot it out (Oxford educated, ending up as 1st Baron Tweedsmuir and Gov Gen of Canada etc etc) and encountering it from a novelist who grew up in a back-to-back and who was at least on nodding terms with social deprivation.

I became anxious about the fact that my parents both loved a decent - and for decent read trot a mouse across it - tea.

Also smiling in recognition of 'trotting mouse on tea' phenomenon.

MJKB, your 'trot a mouse' comment keeps popping into my mind and making me chuckle. I just wanted to say thank you! It really tickled me.

EBD in common with many genuinely kind women with social consiences did see a distinction between the worthy - hard working and respectable poor, and the unworthy - lazy and unambitious poor.

Oh, I agree, but I'd also agree with Tor that it's a bit dismaying to find EBD slipping into that kind of class eugenics cliche when her own conscious ethos is one of equality for all. ...?

Gay was wearing a disgraceful old raincoat and beret, and she had put on her heaviest shoes for the walk; but there was no mistaking what she was. Her highbred little face, graceful carriage and clear, cultured voice all gave her away if she had had any hope of passing for a cottage girl.

The Bettanys all adored animals, and the same spirit which must have sent Jo off in an attempt to save the puppies boiled up in her sister now. ‘Poor Zita! If they can’t afford to keep her, why don’t they sell her to someone who can?’
Marie stood respectfully silent. It was not for her to speak, but she thought that if Madame had seven children to clothe and feed, and a husband who could earn money only during the summer, since he was a cowherd, she would not have been so indignant over the proposed shooting of a mere big dog who ate far more than she ought to do Of course, if the pups had arrived during the tourist season, they would most likely have sold, in which case there would have been plenty to buy food for all. But Zita had not done what was expected of her, and so they must go. That was a matter of course.
Madge, looking up, guessed what was passing through the girl’s mind. ‘Are they very poor, Marie?’ she asked gently.
‘They can live, mein Fraulein,’ replied Marie dryly.

think this is one of the few (only?) times we see Marie even vaguely critical of the Bettanys and I think EBD presents her thoughts and Madge's quite fairly (and sympathetically) for each character in their respective social class of the time.

“Somewheres behind,” Samantha replied. Miss Ferrars frowned. “Not ‘somewheres’, Samantha. We don’t say that in English. It’s ‘somewhere’ without the s.” Samantha blushed. “I guess I’m real American at times, Miss Ferrars. It don’t really matter, surely? Some day I’ll be going home and then I want to talk like other folks.” Miss Ferrars laughed. “It all depends on where you live. I know that in Boston, for instance, the English is as pure as anywhere in England itself. It’s more the accent and intonation that differ. Yes, Samantha. I think it does matter that you should speak correctly. Do your best with it, anyhow. Remember, both of you, that one reason for your being here is that you may learn to speak all of our three languages properly. ...Samantha frowned and then laughed as Janice and Ailie ran off ahead of herself and Samaris. “I guess she’s right. But it’s a mite surprising to be hauled up for using your own language. I didn’t know I did speak American until these last few days, anyway.”

EBD's depictions of the 'undeserving' poor remind me of Harry Enfield's character, Mr. Cholondley-Warner. You can catch him on youtube and I think he's absolutely hysterical. Sorry, a little ot.

I love her, "But it’s a mite surprising to be hauled up for using your own language."

I honestly never realised that certain words, expressions and turns of phrase were Manchester-isms/Lancashire-isms/Northern-isms rather than being "standard English", because everyone I knew at home spoke the same way as I did! You just don't realise until you're with a lot of people from different places.

Yseult Pertwee says "Eh?" when she doesn't hear something that Kathie says and, instead of being told to say "What?", is told to say "I beg your pardon" . I was always told that it was very rude to say "What?" rather than "Pardon?" or "Sorry?",

In Cavan they call amateur dramatics 'the frolics'.

According to Prof. Ross, whilst U-speakers use what? or sorry? their nannies and governesses are always trying to get them to be more polite>?!

There isn't the same class differences in accent in Ireland, apart from the South side Dubliners, who have this appalling orrrr sound to everything. Instead of "I spent the afternoon in Herbert Park" they say, "Ay spent the orfternoon in Horbort Pork."

Is Rachel Allen, the TV cook, from the Southside? I've often thought she has a most peculiar accent...

There isn't the same class differences in accent in Ireland,.

In general though, you really can't tell rural Irish people's social background as easily as you can the English middle and upper class.

It's amazing how finely attuned to accents your ear can be when you come from the area concerned! I can (for example) tell a Bury accent from a Bolton accent, even though the places in question are only 7 miles apart, but I can't tell an accent from one part of the Home Counties from another to save my life, and I've met people from the south of England who can't tell a Lancashire accent from a Yorkshire accent.

When I pointed this out to a 'clever' friend of mine who is very big into u non u, and who is constantly correcting others, she claimed the 'I beg' saves it. I don't think Ms Mitford would agree. I've heard Prince Charles when interviewed say , "excuse me" when he didn't hear what the interviewer was saying.

In Reunion, JOey comes up with a most extaordinary word for motorbike - mobike! I think she was hoping it might catch on.

Was there some huge plague in Essex that attacked everyone who's accent didn't sound like an extra from Easternders?

Buchan seems to have led a life of extreme class privilege - Oxford, various colonial admin jobs, married a Grosvenor, gets made Baron Tweedsmuir, state funeral when he dies etc etc - maybe he was actually sheltered and bigoted enough to believe codswallop like 'centuries of command' and high breeding imprinting themselves biologically on the faces of the upper classes!

John Buchan I met once or twice and liked very much. Didn't he pay for every bit of his schooling and Oxford by scholarships and writing stories? What grit the Scots have! And with him there was none of their dourness and long upper lip. I know a good Scot who putt the weight with me at Cambridge. He was a scholar, son of a blacksmith, who never would come to the CUAC dinners because he had no evening clothes.

I don't think the "I beg" actually makes the slightest difference!

Next time she corrects you, you might like to point out that, according to Jilly Cooper, correcting other people's words/manners is very non-U...

I find it very annoying. There are a few words that I have difficulty in pronoucing - can't really remember many but apparently I have been known to pronounce the t in fait au complait and once I sounded the t in pret a porter and her mirth knew no bounds. I was a veritable hoot.

According to my Oxford dictionary, the "t" should be sounded in both phrases.

I think you must mean fait accompli?

Several writers poke fun at the "gentified" accents of shopgirls or receptionists who try to ape a more refined speech - Sayers, for example, has a receptionist at the Hotel Splendid in Wilvercombe say to Harriet that "Ay have a naice room, with belcony..."

Post subject: Re: Themes: Class Reply with quote
Mia wrote:
I think you must mean fait accompli?

(What does "garn" mean by the way?)

!As for that Pennell girl with her lah-di-dah voice and manners, Joan felt that she would like to say or do something really vulgar to knock her off her perch. And here was young Ros cultivating just that kind of voice! And here Joan had to stop short for Rosamund had always spoken prettily and all that was happening was that she was beginning to lose her Hampshire accent which had never been strong in any case.

MJKB - your French pronunciation sounds considerably more accurate than your friend's.

I think that's right about 'Garn' being 'Go on'

“”What about washing?” she asked.
“We can do that at the station. Our train for Interlaken doesn’t come in for another hour and the waiting rooms in the station are a lot easier than the toilets on the train.”

Or maybe Althea's being very polite here, and asking about "washing" when what she actually means is that she wants to know where the toilets are, but Len's realising what she means and being terribly vulgar and using "toilets" rather than a euphemism ... .

Perhaps it's just as well the series ends shortly afterwards or she'd have gone on to discuss her experiences with the mooncup or something.

What's a mooncup?

What does the U stand for in either U or non-U?

The only other oblique reference to the same bodily function was in Althea (Ithink). The juniors get locked in the common room because some child stuffs the lock with sawdust??? anyway, one of them tells Miss Ferris that she'd tried to leave the room because she needed to "be excused." I was quite shocked.

That was in Two Sams. I was shocked too! Whoever needed to be excused was presumably desperate by the time Gaudenz broke the door down. No wonder they were all panicking!

Also, does the word "cloakroom" normally denote a place with plumbing in the UK? For me, cloakroom would purely be a place to stash coats, hats, snow boots, umbrellas, and (at school) things like book bags and lunch boxes. The Splasheries to me sound more like locker rooms, given their combination of plumbing and storage lockers.

The only difference between the Senior and Junior cloaks was the existence of an incinerator for used sanitary pads in the Senior

I feel there is some class distinction shown here by EDB.The Lucys' and Chesters etc were from middle or upper middle class family.
So were their children allowed to work?

In terms of class, I tend to think of Lady Diana Spencer working as a nursery nurse before her prince came along!

Mind you, she had only a single O-level, didn't she? And a star for hamster care, or something.

Cat C wrote:
In terms of class, I tend to think of Lady Diana Spencer working as a nursery nurse before her prince came along!

note that no one else seems to be surprised that she's not pursuing some kind of career to do with her degree (or why she doesn't simply stay at home?) only that she isn't yet married (which I have to say I find absolutely maddening, especially as spoken by the attractive and apparently happily single Rosalie Dene)...

Quite apart from all that stuff about phrenology, it wouldn't have seemed all that strange to EBD, I wouldn't have thought, that you could tell someone's breeding by just looking at them.

I think the trouble is that we all do judge by appearances, at least initally, including all the sorts of things that are a choice (clothes, hair style...)

Am re-reading The Lost Staircase (thanks to, I think, Nightwing, who was talking about reading it for the first time). I note that Sir Ambrose has a 'high bred' face and 'artistocratic fingers' (which sounds a bit creepy) and that the new doctor remarks to his pretty (of course!) wife that they are: 'Patricians every one of them - master, heiress and dogs'.

EBD is not the only author to harbour the offensive idea that you can tell a person's class just by looking at them. It's a trend you can see throughout the nineteenth century and probably before as well as in 20th c. fiction.:

Little do they realise that to us high bred just means chinless...

her 'high-bred little face'

Jilly Cooper makes the claim in Class that upper class people are generally taller than the other social classes, and scientists also claim that the generations are growing taller due to better food and conditions, in the West anyway. (I'd welcome affirmation or otherwise of the above claim.) When I was younger I found this quite insulting as I'm barely 5' tall. I may have read this while reading Brave New World and worried about looking like some sort of gamma or beta!

although obviously there is a genetic component in

To be serious, what is the correlation between social class and height? And how significant is the genetic componet?

I've certainly seen plenty of statistics showing that people are gradually getting taller over the generations because of better food.

Having just finished my comment on this board yesterday evening I started thinking about all the heroines of Go literature, including American 19th century. I couldn't come up with one small/petite heroine. Anyone care to comment on that.

This shocked me as I thought IQ was a measure of intrinsic intelligence rather than of the surroundings but I suppose you can't separate the two.

The four others were dark-eyed, hardly little vagrants; this child was thin and very fair. Her hair was the brightest living gold, and despite the poverty of her clothing, seemed to set a crown of distinction on her head. Her brow was clear and ample, her blue eyes cloudless, and her lips and the moulding of her face so expressive of sensibility and sweetness that none could behold her without looking on her as of a distinct species, a being heaven-sent, and bearing a celestial stamp in all her features.

It's quite true that people in general are getting taller. You only have to visit an old National Trust property and not be able to get through the doors to realise this (I'm only 5' 4). Suits of armour for knights (upper class, surely) were on average only 5'4.

This is really interesting.

the sickly Fanny in Mansfield Park.

Good to hear, because I can't think of any small heroines apart, from the sickly Fanny in Mansfield Park.

Going way back to the Biddy O'Ryan/Irish accent, if I may, I always thought the point EBD was trying to get across was that it wasn't so much the accent (unless it was really broad) but more what was actually said. Biddy's Irish WAY of speaking "oi, 'tis not roight, at all, at all" was, in that specialist school of languages, what the staff were trying to tone down. With accents abounding, I don't think they minded the Irish/Scottish lilt, or the Hampshire accent any more than the "gutteral German" and all the other accents they must have had.

And of course we only ever see CS speakers of English being rebuked for the way they speak their native language - or should we imagine Mademoiselle Lepattre rebuking speakers of non-prestigious French dialects, or Herr Anserl ticking someone off for sounding too Swabian?!

or anything other than the RP and 'clear, cultured tones' Elinor Pennell speaks in,

There's this one but it's front page doesn't seem very up-to-date - still trailing the 2006 conference. Have you a better link Emsnan?

I think some accents are easier on the ear than others. There are some very ugly sounding English and Irish accents.

I can understand the insisting on toning down accents in some cases simply because some are impossible to understand.

I know I'm personally biased against a certain kind of trad upper-class Home Counties bark because I associate it with Tory philistinism and crassness.

Didn't they provide subtitles when Susan Boyle was interviewed on an American chat show recently ?
Didn't they provide subtitles when Susan Boyle was interviewed on an American chat show recently ?

I have a friend from Manchester who hates her accents with a passion, yet in America they love it and thinks it sounds great. I guess a lot of things foreign sounds exotic and so is liked more

Didn't they provide subtitles when Susan Boyle was interviewed on an American chat show recently ?

Back to the accent discussion - I have to say I still think there is a difference between a regional accent and an ungrammatical way of speaking but perhaps that's more to do with my generation.

Back to the accent discussion - I have to say I still think there is a difference between a regional accent and an ungrammatical way of speaking but perhaps that's more to do with my generation.

Miss Ferrars frowned. “Not ‘somewheres’, Samantha. We don’t say that in English. It’s ‘somewhere’ without the s.” Samantha blushed. “I guess I’m real American at times, Miss Ferrars. It don’t really matter, surely? Some day I’ll be going home and then I want to talk like other folks.”

Miss Ferrars laughed. “It all depends on where you live. I know that in Boston, for instance, the English is as pure as anywhere in England itself. It’s more the accent and intonation that differ. Yes, Samantha. I think it does matter that you should speak correctly. Do your best with it, anyhow. Remember, both of you, that one reason for your being here is that you may learn to speak all of our three languages properly.

things like 'different to' vs 'different than'

I wouldn't use either of these constructions, grr. I'm sorry but this is a real bugbear of mine; very similar to when people say less when they mean fewer. It makes me all twitchy!

Out of interest, what construction would you use to say the same thing? I'm being dense, I know!

Out of interest, what construction would you use to say the same thing? I'm being dense, I know!

Some of Biddy's speech as EBD writes it is stage-Irish nonsense, but some of it is reasonably accurate Hiberno-English. Irish has no words for 'yes' and 'no', so you have Biddy saying 'I am' or 'I am not'/'It is'/'It isn't' in response to questions which would get a yes/no response in UK English. Irish doesn't have a pluperfect tense, and Hiberno-English uses 'after' to replicate the kinds of compond prepositions you use instead in Irish: 'I'm after finishing my prep.'

I do sometimes wonder if there was an official list of banned words ...

Moving aside slightly to the slang question - in one of the books it says something like "'Wizard' was allowed at the Chalet School but 'smashing' definitely was not." I never understood the reasoning behind that differentiation?

I do sometimes wonder if there was an official list of banned words

I also wonder why no-one ever seemed to be told off for using French or German slang ...

I do sometimes wonder if there was an official list of banned words ...

I also wonder why no-one ever seemed to be told off for using French or German slang ...

However, and this only ever seems to crop up when foreign writers try to write Hiberno-English, I have read the "I'm after" construction in the following sense "I'm after going down to Cashel tomorrow and buying a bicycle", i.e., I want to go down to Cashel tomorrow.

I suspect that this is a misunderstanding of the "I'm after" to mean that this is something the speaker intends or wants, as in "What are you after?".

I've never heard it used that way in spoken Hiberno-English. Is this phrase actually ever used in this context?

I remember either people being rebuked or EBD saying they deserved to be rebuked for saying "fermez les becs" or similar.

Which foreign writer uses it like that?

I recently had a hellish journey on the M25 while my mother and daughter argued over whether or not it was good English to use 'access' as a verb. By the time we got to the Clacket Lane Services I was ready to ram it just to shut them up.

I can see a practical side to trying to rid people of their accents; it wouldn't look very good for a member of staff if they couldn't understand half the things a pupil said to them

But maybe they were actually related to some gaelic that I don't know.

Some people use a different "voice" for different things

Of course, that feeling of rightness might partly stem from my own sloppy English. I have pretty much accepted that at the end of every piece of science writing I will ever do I will have to go back and do 'Find and Replace' in Word to change 'this data' to 'these data'. I think 'these data' sounds horrible.

But wasn't elocution also about things like verse-speaking as well as speaking "nicely"? Doesn't Katherine Brook in Anne of Windy Willows do that?

Going slightly OT now, but would schools like the CS have offered elocution lessons or would it have been assumed that pupils would speak in suitably posh voices anyway?

You see, I think that it is *very* easy to understand a whole range of accents if you just spend a little time listening to them. [..] A bit of interpolation and contextualization is required at first, but really I think it is only polite to do so.

Children today don't think that words such as 'damn' or 'crap' are swearing at all, whereas when I was at school in the 70's/80's you would have had your mouth washed out for using either!

...and I'm starting to realise just how quickly we're losing it

But if we stop swearing, just think of all the lovely swearwords we'd lose!

Privilege can certainly make people pretty dense, though - I was once so irritated by a rude elderly woman at a high table dinner (who kept remarking on my 'brogue' and quizzing me on how 'someone from your background' had ended up at Oxford, despite my initially polite attempts to turn the subject) that I eventually ended up turning the tables and pretending I couldn't understand a word she boomed and shaking my head and saying I was sorry, I found her strong accent rather impeded my comprehension, and hadn't she ever considered stopping yod dropping or her epenthetic rs to make herself easier to understand for people at large?

Fantastic! Did she 'get' it?

You see, I think that it is *very* easy to understand a whole range of accents if you just spend a little time listening to them. Not immediately, obviously, but very soon - if you make the effort - you get used to all sorts of quirks. Even the thickest of accents. A bit of interpolation and contextualization is required at first, but really I think it is only polite to do so. People who don't (unless they have hearing problems, which is a different matter) are, in my very, very humble opinion, lazy or a bit slow.

Actually Tor, to be pedantic, you ought to be referring to 'This datum.' it's a Latin noun, neuter, so datum. Data is the plural. Perhaps that will help your feelings as you use the replace button.

I don't think I am lazy or slow. But there are some British accents which I find almost incomprehensible (sp?)... but if you only hear/speak to someone once in a blue moon who has a very different accent it can be almost like they are speaking a different language.

Also, there is very little regional variation in Australian accents, so maybe there is the amount/frequency that you are accustomed to listening to different accents

My accent ranges all over the place depending on who I speak to... basically, I think my inner-self is saying "Like, like me! i am part of your group", even if my intellect doesn't care whether they accept me or not!

Sunglass hit the nail on the head, i think, in saying it is a power thing by people who don't even try to understand, and make a real hullabaloo about not being able to understand.

I get 'wandering accent syndrome' too!

Quote:
I don't think I am lazy or slow. But there are some British accents which I find almost incomprehensible (sp?)... but if you only hear/speak to someone once in a blue moon who has a very different accent it can be almost like they are speaking a different language.

I think it's a two way street. Of course one should make every effort to understand another person's way of speaking in order to avoid offending them

some of the permanent staff use to slag off my accent and then speed up their speech so that I had huge difficulty understanding them

The human brain is amazing - it can pick up new languages superficially in a very short period of time. Random bits of dialect and accent variation are teeny tasks in comparison.

You are obviously exceptionally clever and probably gifted with language

Was that from the problem of whether 'scone' rhymes with 'gone' or 'bone'? Personally, I'd always go with the former, but I have heard people using the other one.

Of course, if it refers to a well known stone, it sounds completely different, again!

Mostly, however, I get p**ssed off that I seem to be able to make the effort to understand other peoples' accents, and yet don't seem to have the courtesy returned that often. Hence it's a bug-bear of mine, as more often than not calling attention to someones accent is a great way of stressing difference between you and them.

(my current attempt to learn Arabic is driving me to distraction!),

Usually I go with the latter (to go with my plaastic) but I do find myself mimicking the customers sometimes and saying it how they do - again, changing accents

*is still lost*

She's only -- is that sarcastic? -- going to leave her expletive-deleted brother drunk in her living room in her what? The only gaff I know of is a sharp thingummy used to stab fish or hook them together -- seems too violent for the context. And I'm guessing tick is thick/not too bright?

Re scones: Is scone (to rhyme with cone) a more "posh" pronunciation in the UK? In Ireland it's the most common pronunciation and I think scone (to rhyme with gone) is considered more "posh".

ETA: I'm very glad I didn't have to interpret the girl with the brother! If I've got the interpretation correct now, she left him in her house/gaff and came to school just to ask to leave again? Not that my own students don't come up with plenty of excuses....

EBD never had to handle that one, did she. I guess the closest we come would be Margot's poor excuse of a husband and the notorious San-registrar, Mr. Grier. Well, maybe persons attending ice carnivals.

Yes, I always wonder about the effects of regular place-specific multilingualism, like the situation at the CS, and its effects on how each language is spoken, like the 'Paris/Paree' issue (for native English speakers, obviously - Simone would presumably pronounce Paris the same way in either language). I speak French semi-regularly with French friends, and used to live in France, but I would never pronounce the name of the city the French way unless I were actually speaking French - which is fairly inconsistent, I suppose, because I pronunce all other French place names the same way (the French way) whichever language I am speaking...!

Having said which, the BBC still insists on referring to Myanmar as Burma .

Britain's policy is to refer to Burma rather than 'Myanmar'. The current regime changed the name to Myanmar in 1989. Burma's democracy movement prefers the form ‘Burma’ because they do not accept the legitimacy of the unelected military regime and thus their right to change the official name of the country. Internationally, both names are recognised.

‘She speaks prettily, and very fluently, and her knowledge of the grammar is good. She tells me that her aunts had a maid who was Parisienne, and they insisted that the child should converse with her every day. She must have been an educated woman, for Polly uses certain expressions that are quaint and old-fashioned, but always the purest of French.’

like Barbara; she had heard a good deal at home, thanks to their two mothers and their Aunt Elizabeth having spent so much of their girlhood in France

the fluent 'pretty' French the Guernsey CS girls apparently speak needs a bit of explaining.

She's clearly quite anxious that her characters speak the 'right' version of any language!

Fiona, the English are not really obsessed with class,accents and dialects etc. People who sneer at others' speech are narrow-minded, not very clever, humourless, lacking in wonder and curiosity, non-creative, under-confident and must lead very dull lives.

refuse to be polite simply because their accent is different to me is the height of rudeness

I suppose we must forgive EBD for being a ghastly snob

EBD's anxiety possibly stems from the fact that she herself had to work hard not to slip into South Shieldsisms herself, but one wonders why. I don't think she mixed in the higher ranks of society; from what I have read her world was school, church, publishers and her fans. Fiona, the English are not really obsessed with class,accents and dialects etc. People who sneer at others' speech are narrow-minded, not very clever, humourless, lacking in wonder and curiosity, non-creative, under-confident and must lead very dull lives. Probably lots of other things as well! I suppose we must forgive EBD for being a ghastly snob.

I have to say, on French days, it would have blown my mind slightly to have to get my head and tongue around ''Il faut aller au Saal pour Kaffee und Kuchen a seize heures et puis on a Abendessen a dix-neuf...'

Have never read Maids of La Rochelle, and am fairly ignorant of the backstory of those families - have they always lived on Guernsey and their ancestors before them etc, or are they relatively recent arrivals?

Interesting point about the place names. I suppose that techincally it should be pronounced according to regular intonation, but that doesn't often seem to be the case. I wonder if the non-native English speakers would pronounce English place names correctly, or if you would get things like 'Vustershire' (odd example, sorry )

I think it's important to remember that EBD wouldn't have considered herself a snob but a crusader against snobbism. She seems to have been trying to combat both those who looked down on scholarship girls, tradesmen's daughters, etc. and the inverse snobs who ridiculed or turned up their noses at persons trying to "better themselves." She seems to have sincerely believed in education as a leveler, in a very positive sense, however much we now see components of the brand of homogeneity she probably thought would help erase barriers as derogatory or patronizing.

an acquaintance who teaches at Roedean (posh private all-girls school in Brighton) said there was a quota-system at Oxford for state students that penalised private school pupils from places that they were entitled to.

It's a leetle gripe of mine, but I do wish the British media would make a bigger effort to pronouce Irish place names and surnames.

I think it's important to remember that EBD wouldn't have considered herself a snob but a crusader against snobbism.

Just out of curiosity, how would someone without the two hard G's in their Gallagher pronounce it? Jallager? Gallajer? Or maybe the 2nd g is silent? (Sorry. The ones I know probably Americanized their pronunciation over a century ago.)

My point is that, for a woman born in 1894, into a society in which "class" was so intrinsic, EBD is pretty forward-thinking

It just bothers me that we seem so ready to throw personal brickbats at someone who was actually doing her damnedest for the cause.

Scotland's just as bad - Friockhiem anyone?? (Freekum). It used to annoy me when the BBC could never prounounce the last 'r' in Forfar and pronounced the 'L' in Kirkcaldy (should be Kirkoddy).

Reg's surname is Entwistle with no h!

OT again, MJKB I'm really glad you mentiond the Eire/Ireland thing. What is currently 'correct'. I was wondering. And seconding Kathy S' request for enlightenment for correct pronunciations for Gallager (and all the others Irish names/phrases mentionned by Sungalss. I want to know!!!!). But totally true the BBC ought to make the effort, as they seem to manage for the rest of the world (but *do*they...?! Maybe they are mangling all of them)

why can't the same newsreaders manage 'taoiseach'?

It's not just the working class people either: Mrs Trelawney evidently considers herself to be superior to most other people in the village and is always trying to make sure that Mary-Lou doesn't associate with anyone "unsuitable"; and Madge drags everyone back from the Mondscheinspitze at crack of dawn so that no-one will see them with messy hair and crumpled clothes...

Jean was disgusted at the sight and feeling of the rough and ready clothes she wore. Allison was as plainly dressed as could be but she wore the best of everything. Kirsty was clad in home-knitted knickers, vest and stockings... She had only flannelette nightdresses and they were forced to put her into one till they could get us some of the little sleeping suits of the soft Indian cotton than Allison always wore.

She exhibited a small pile of underthings and Mollie regarded them with wondering eyes.
"What on earth do you want to show me these for? Are they for one of Oona's protégés?"
"No! These are Kirsty things," said Jean in a choked voice.
"Kirsty’s?" Mollie picked one up and felt it. Then, she suddenly flung it down. "Jean! You can't mean it! Why it's the kind of thing the very poor put on their children. And anyway, her sleeping suit seems all right."
"She wore a flannelette nightgown of the vilest pink last night," said Jean.

Just trying to think which of the CS characters didn't seem unduly worried about their position/respectability and how they appeared to others!

I supose we've lost that sense of your clothes classing you to that extent.

but surely at least one lower class person could have got there because their own family placed high regard on education, cleanliness and manners?

The BBC often have odd pronunciations for many place-names - the way the newsreaders pronounce Iraq and Pakistan always sounds very strange. But in their defence people would accuse them of pretension if they were to say Moskva and Paree, so if it's OK to anglicise these, why not Irish places?

Have we though? Aren't the 'right shoes' still the acid test?

No idea - You're asking the wrong person! I wear Birkenstocks to the ROH and expect the people in the expensive seats to deal with it!

But, daaaahling, no one dresses up at the ROH anymore. Glyndebourne maybe... .

I think EBD is fairly consistent in her application of approved dress-code across class boundaries - neatness over all else. Plain clothes of the highest quality you can afford. The worst sin is to be flashy, the second worst to be dirty (if you combine flashy *and* dirty then, well, heaven help your soul). It just riles me that there is an element of 'know your place' snobbery in this criteria - don't try to ape your betters.

but then I happened to be in an upper box for a Tosca dress rehearsal this week - with a better view of the rest the house than the stage! who pays that much money for half a sideways view?

I always wonder about Biddy too and to what extent she recognised consciously at the village school and then at the CS that her cleverness was her way out of a future which involved being trained for domestic service...

I do wonder what it was like for Ros when she went home in the holidays and her way of speaking was no longer the same as that of the rest of her family, though.

I think it would have been all right for Rosamund at home, because her family were proud of her achievement in getting a scholarship to the CS, and I think they would have seen any change in her speech as part of how it was helping her to get a good education. Ros would probably have had a lot more trouble from Kath Stevens(?) and the rest of her friends from school - I expect that they would have given her a very hard time if they thought she'd turned too posh!

While EBD may have seen the working-class as inferior, to actually consciously treat them as such was, to her, a terrible behaviour to indulge in.

I think the middle class girls doing no wrong thing is closely linked with the creation of the character of Joan. The problems with Joan are not because of her social background, but because of her behaviour and attitude, which are considered "cheap" (Mary-Lou's word) by CS standards. But why couldn't EBD have introduced a character who wore "unsuitable" clothes and too much make-up, talked about boys and used the occasional swear word without having to make that character someone from a different social class to most of the other girls?

I bet Yseult Pertwee had some "unsuitable" clothes and make-up to go with her picturesque hairstyle, Emerence when she first arrived was rude and cheeky and I bet she wasn't averse to using the odd swear word, and Janice and Judy mention that some of their friends at home have boyfriends, but we never see any of that at the school. Behaviour considered to be common/vulgar has to come from a girl from a working class family.

I feel sorry for Frau Berlin. It's very upsetting when someone speaks audibly about how fat you are. When Herr Marani tells Joey off about her remarks, Joey says "She is fat, isn't she?" as if the fact that someone's overweight makes it OK to be rude about them. I'd really like to've seen Frau B come back and take her revenge at some point! Sorry, that was totally irrelevant .

I don't think Joey would ever understand how rude and hurtful she was as she never got fat. If she had maybe she would have been more apologetic. what always got me about that was how much she told Grizel off for being rude to Frau Berlin when she was equally as rude herself earlier

Not that this excuses Joey but EBD is always going on about how fat or skinny people are! And unfortunately she was writing in a time when using overweight characters as comic relief was perfectly acceptable (not that this doesn't still happen today, and it always makes my blood boil!!!). I only read a couple of GO authors but this does seem to be a trend in the books I've read. There's Lady Blantosh in the Sadler's Wells series; and it's been a while since I read any Enid Blyton but I do distinctly remember the fat girl nicknamed 'Pudding' in the last St Clare's book...

Not that this excuses Joey but EBD is always going on about how fat or skinny people are! And unfortunately she was writing in a time when using overweight characters as comic relief was perfectly acceptable (not that this doesn't still happen today, and it always makes my blood boil!!!)

isn't 'well bred' enough to know that you shouldn't be snobbish.
For me, it's this idea that is also offensive - for example another snob is that girl from the other Chalet School, and her dad was working class, and I also get that impression about Zephyr Burthill. Real Chalet girls know that these things don't matter

Is Thekla the only snob who isn't also a bit of a class-upstart? The Saint's girl who writes to Elisaveta's dad, and worships Elaine because she is the daughter of a Baronet or whatever, what is her background...?

According to Chalet Land rules, it should have been grander than Jack's.

They obviously lost alot of money but that wouldn't interfere with their social position, or would it?

But then I guess Dick would be more proud of what he had acheived, doing it all himself, than say Madge or Joey - who does still go on about having no money after the war - because he'd earned his (for the main part, I always think that marrying Molly would have helped him a bit) while for the other two it is nearly all down to who they marry.

Madge and Joey's aunts are described as having "large families and small means".

Nor, with very few exceptions, do any of the mistresses' relations send their daughters to the school.

EBD does seem to have quite a lot of her characters call what we would consider to be their parents 'Aunt' and 'Uncle' - look at Jacynth and Auntie. I think partly it is a mark of respect - they don't want the child to forget her actual parents, who would be their brother or sister.

Not so much now, but when I was a kid I was always taught to refer to family friends and parents of my own friends as Auntie This or Uncle That, largely because calling them Mr/Mrs/Miss Whatever would have been too formal and at that time (1980s) it was considered impolite for a child to use an adult's first name, and at the time at which EBD was writing it would definitely have been considered rude for a child to call an adult by their first name.

Jem and Jack seem to get most of the girls to call them "Dr Jem" and "Dr Jack", which now that I think about it is quite strange. Imagine if Joey'd asked people to call her "Mrs Joey" or even "Mrs Dr Joey" ... .

Were governesses generally referred to as "Miss/Mrs First Name" or was that just in The Sound of Music and The King and I ? I'm always surprised that the Queen and Princess Margaret were allowed to get away with saying "Crawfie" instead of "Miss Crawford" .

All the Guernsey clan call Jo 'aunt' but Mary-Lou is allowed to drop it when she leaves school. Again, Mary-Lou is allowed to use Biddy's first name while she is still at school. Why? In 'Reunion' Len refers to Grizel as 'Auntie' like a five year old.There doesn't seem to be any consistency.

In 'Reunion' Len refers to Grizel as 'Auntie' like a five year old.There doesn't seem to be any consistency.

Jem and Jack seem to get most of the girls to call them "Dr Jem" and "Dr Jack", which now that I think about it is quite strange. Imagine if Joey'd asked people to call her "Mrs Joey" or even "Mrs Dr Joey" ... .

I still (at eighteen) call my Aunt and Uncle with the title, though that is more because I don't want to seem disrespectful and upset them. How do you know when you're too old to do it?