I haven't read Carnation yet (but am looking forward to doing so) - but .... Nancy Drew?! Really?! And nobody has done a crossover drabble about this yet?
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| Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6205 |
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| Author: | JB [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
Carnation of the Upper Fourth was first published in 1934 by the Girls Own Paper Office. There was a 1958 Lutterworth reprint but this is half as long as the original book (it must be extremely short as the full version is only 150 pages). It was reprinted in its entirety by Girls Gone By in 2007. Motherless from birth, Carnation de Lisle has travelled the world with her composer father. At the beginning of the book, they’ve returned to England and Carnation’s young aunt, who is called Nancy Drew, has insisted that her niece is sent to the local High School. Carnation has never been to school before but soon makes friends with Madge Harley, the daughter of the local doctor and one of a large family. She begins to settle down at school and joins the Guides but becomes unpopular with Birdie Woolcot, another member of the Upper Fourth. Mr de Lisle comes down with pneumonia and Carnation has to spend 4 days by his bedside as, even in his fever, he notices if she leaves him. When he recovers, he’s sent to Madeira for a year and Carnation goes to stay with the Hurleys. Back at school, the sixth form propose they should concentrate on their exams and stand down from school teams, giving younger girls the opportunity to play for the school. Birdie is against this idea as she’s afraid that Carnation will be chosen for the tennis six instead of her. She starts an unsuccessful petition against the decision and, angry at its failure, plays badly in the trials. As a result she’s left out of the team while Carnation and Madge are successful. On the match day, Birdie locks Carnation in the art room in the hope that she’ll miss the match (sound familiar?). A teacher comes along unexpectedly and Carnation is released without the need to break a window. She is in time to play and the school win the match. Birdie is found out, and suspended from school and Guides. She coaxes her father to send her to school in Switzerland and doesn’t return to Shapcott High. Carnation wins the Guide silver medal for saving a life after she rescues Joan Hardy from the Dark Lake on a Guide trip to the country. She and Madge are to spend the summer holidays in Madeira, and Nancy Drew becomes engaged to Madge’s brother. Please do post your comments on this book. To start us off, here are a few questions: How much do you feel we get to know Carnation as a character? Is she drawn as clearly as Madge or Birdie? Is Birdie’s jealousy of Carnation realistic in its cause and in Birdie’s later behaviour? It’s unusual for EBD not to give her “bad” characters the chance to redeem themselves. Why do you think she makes an exception here? What do you think of Madge’s definition of Birdie as a “plutocrat” – someone who, unlike most of the pupils, won’t need to work when she leaves school? How unusual is this for a book from the 1930s? In her introduction to the GGB edition, Ruth Jolly talks about “The Child-Saviour in the Work of EBD”, comparing Carnation’s vigil at her father’s bedside to the Robin saving Joey in Rivals and Maidie Willoughby fainting after spending hours kneeling by her sister’s bed. Do you find these episodes believable? Did you feel differently as a child if you read the book then? A transcript of this book is available on Raya’s site and the Googlemail site. Do PM me if you’re having problems finding it. Next week’s book is Caroline the Second. I haven’t found a transcript of this – does anyone else know if one exists? |
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| Author: | Róisín [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
I haven't read Carnation yet (but am looking forward to doing so) - but .... Nancy Drew?! Really?! And nobody has done a crossover drabble about this yet?
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| Author: | Cel [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
I just recently read this one, and liked it. Although set in a day school, its very reminiscent of the CS, with play-by-play accounts of tennis matches and the aforementioned 'locking in the art room' incident. And there's none of the oppressive religious overtones found in some of the other stand-alone books. As JB suggested, we don't get to know Carnation herself very well through this book - Madge is more of a central character, and as far as I remember very little of the story is told from Carnation's point of view. And yes, I agree - Nancy Drew?!!! |
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| Author: | JS [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
This is one of my favourites of the non-CS books, despite some heavy-handed scenes (eg vigil for her ill father). Been a long time since I read it, so don't recall much detail, but remember being struck by the locking in/tennis match scene! EBD really was an avid recycler - did she think that people wouldn't have read or remembered the other book, or didn't she remember herself, I wonder. Only time I've ever come across Carnation as a name. |
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| Author: | Alison H [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
The name kept making me think of condensed milk, although maybe it wasn't around when EBD wrote the book . There were a lot of very familiar-sounding plotlines, weren't there?"Plutocrat" makes me think of a very large gentleman in an expensive suit, smoking a huge cigar! I think it was one of many cases - the best one being "Juliet, the incubus" -in which EBD didn't quite get the right word ... There was a case somewhere locally - I think it was in St Helens - last year of a child being roused from a coma by the sound of a relative's singing. Until I saw the family concerned interviewed on local news, I'd always thought that the whole thing of Robin's singing saving Joey's life was Victorian-esque sentimental rubbish, but this was a real life true story  .
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| Author: | JB [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
I had the same thought about condensed milk, Alison. Wikipedia tells me it came on the market in 1899. www.foodreference.com tells me it's a staple found in many kitchens .... Is that still the case? It reminds me of jelly and Carnation milk as a childhood pudding. Putting off working? Me? |
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| Author: | MJKB [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
I liked this book, especially the fact that it's a day school, lots of insights into domestic life in the 30's and 40's. I loved the scramble of for the bathroom in the Harley household, for example, it gives a flavour to a large, middle class family at the time living in relative discomfort by today's standards. Birdie has to be one of the most villainous characters in EBD's repertroire. I didn't approve of her ending, mind you, a new start in a new school seems too much of a reward for her villainy. Interesting that Carnation was treated with far more sympathy than Blossom in the CS for a very similar escapade. |
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| Author: | Kathy_S [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
Well, in Nancy's Mysterious Letter (Nancy Drew #8), Nancy does solve a mystery featuring an English Nancy Drew. I agree that the ending was rather startling for EBD -- having the villain get exactly what she's been trying to finagle, transfer to the cousin's fancy Swiss school, and with no repentance whatsoever. More like the wicked Mae Norris in Beverly Gray, whose crimes include locking Shirley in the haunted house in order to steal her starring role in the play. What do people think of the doctor's ranking of schoolwork? Is it EBD's/the doctor's general philosophy, or just a reflection of Carnation's relative skill in lessons vs. lack of experience in peers? Quote: “Let her come to us,” he said. "My wife will be delighted - indeed, she suggested it to me. She'll keep Madge company, and lose all only-child ways. She has been too long without friends of her own age, and, for the next three or four years, ought to be at school, and thinking only of Guides, games, and - a very long way after - lessons."
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| Author: | JayB [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
Quote: What do people think of the doctor's ranking of schoolwork? Is it EBD's/the doctor's general philosophy, or just a reflection of Carnation's relative skill in lessons vs. lack of experience in peers? I think the doctor is concerned that Carnation is too serious for her age and wants her to be a 'normal' schoolgirl for a time without too much worry or responsibility, especially after her breakdown following her father's illness. I think his thinking is similar to that of Dr Carr when he sent Katy to school. It doesn't seem that the de Lisles are hard up, so Carnation probably won't need to earn her living as the Harley girls will. I thought this school had quite a different feel from the CS, and not just because it was a day school. We don't see nearly so much of the staff, and the Head is a very shadowy figure, compared to the heads of the CS. Academic work is clearly important at Shapcott, and the girls are highly motivated. Whereas the CS at this time had a fairly high proportion of girls who didn't need or expect to work after leaving school, the majority of Shapcott girls seem to expect to have to work. And team games are much more important. The shabby, disorganised, squabbling Harleys are far removed from the Maynards, and much more realistic. In some ways, it felt more like an Angela Brazil than an EBD; I'm not sure I'd have recognised it as EBD if I hadn't known. She doesn't even say that Joan is 'still, grey, etc....' when they pull her out of the lake! |
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| Author: | Nightwing [ Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
Just started reading this and I'm really enjoying it so far (she says, about seven pages in) but this bit in particular caught my attention: Quote: “I don't think I'm specially good at anything else," said Carnation cautiously. "And when you hear a language for five or six years of your life, it comes very easily to you.” This makes so much more sense than girls at the CS being incredibly fluent after just one term, or even just a few weeks in some cases! |
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| Author: | Elle [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
I quite liked this book, although I found the recycling of ideas from the the other books a little annoying - particularly the tennis/ trapping in a room. |
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| Author: | Fiona Mc [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
JayB wrote: Quote: What do people think of the doctor's ranking of schoolwork? Is it EBD's/the doctor's general philosophy, or just a reflection of Carnation's relative skill in lessons vs. lack of experience in peers? I think the doctor is concerned that Carnation is too serious for her age and wants her to be a 'normal' schoolgirl for a time without too much worry or responsibility, especially after her breakdown following her father's illness. I think his thinking is similar to that of Dr Carr when he sent Katy to school. It doesn't seem that the de Lisles are hard up, so Carnation probably won't need to earn her living as the Harley girls will. And Carnation is easily at the top of her Form and one of the youngest there too I think, so taking it easy for a term or two shouldn't hurt her work too much later on. I liked the book and the interactions between the girls. I am curious as to how people could tell if someone is having a one off good day at tennis or is has improved or not. It seemed a lot of girls were dismissed from the tennis team because of that alone when they were deciding teams. I think Birdie's reaction to missing out on being first string in her form was realistic and felt sorry for her friend Joan who she treated like dirt and then acted surprise when Joan decided to change desks with someone else to get away from her. She certainly couldn't handle her fall from grace well and EBD did let her get away with it which does seem more realistic than having everyone repent. I also loved Nancy's reaction to her brother's expectation that of course Nancy would love to bring Carnation and co to Madeira without a by you leave. I think the best parts of the book were all the other charcters as Carnation was too good to be true in a lot of ways. All in all I did enjoy the book |
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| Author: | Caroline [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Books: Carnation of the Upper Fourth |
Elle wrote: I quite liked this book, although I found the recycling of ideas from the the other books a little annoying - particularly the tennis/ trapping in a room. I haven't read this one, but reading all the comments makes me think I should check it out... As for the recycling, it seems EBD took quite a few incidents from her standalone books and re-used them for the CS, rather than the other way around - Carnation definitely came first, being published quite a few years before Wrong CS - 1934 versus 1952 ish? |
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