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Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
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Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'm going to start this tonight, because I always seem to forget I need to on the day :roll:

Grizel's depression is something which is hinted at throughout the series, even when she's a mistress at the Chalet School. The reader gets to see a lot of her problems with her family, and how these affect her later in life too - she has to rely on Miss Annersley to get the job she wants in Australia, and she is ultimately stopped from doing what she really wants in life and becoming a Games Mistress.

However, 'Reunion' is probably the book where we most get to see the effect that its having on her. She has clearly suffered in Australia, and when she returns the reader gets a very personal view of her feelings. However, she is, eventually, awarded her happy ending.

How do you think that EBD handles Grizel's depression? Could it be paralleled with other GO books - for example Mary Devine in Oxenham? Is this a subject you would expect from a school story, or is 'Reunion', the central book concerning it, a more adult tale? Do you think that Grizel's depression is well portrayed? And do you think her ending is realistic? Are there other issues related to Grizel's depression?

Please discuss these and any other ideas you have on the subject below!

Idea by Alison
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'd actually almost be reluctant to call what Grizel has 'Depression', because depression in its modern usage is generally seen as a mental illness - not something that can be effectively cured by a long bed-rest and the love of a doctor!

That's not to say that Grizel doesn't have issues that need to be taken seriously, though. Most of her problems, IMO, stem from emotional abuse at the hands of her father and step-mother. I think she could have even been happy with not getting the career she wanted if it hadn't been for the fact that the it would have been a constant reminder that her father didn't really care about her.

Then, having broken free of her parents, she effectively seems to become Deira's shoulder to cry on right up until the death of Deira's daughter - and then her best friend and the man she loves (or at least has strong feelings for) get married. She's been under a huge emotional strain for years - no wonder she's near breaking point! But I'd still hesitate to label it 'depression'.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think Grizel's character is a pretty powerful portrayal of thwartedness, and the damage that kind of frustration can do, both to the frustrated individual, and to other people with whom they come into contact. Certainly, you could ask how plausible it is that Grizel, who is strong-willed and impulsive, doesn't cut loose from her horrible family and manage to find some other way (unofficial loan from someone in CS circle - I'm sure Madge, who knew her well, would have helped if asked - or scholarships etc) of coming up with the money for her PE teacher training, but I don't think that's the point, the point is what it does to her.

She's a technically brilliant music teacher, but her disappointment and anger colour everything she touches, from her way of responding to the announcement of Joey's engagement (which is to lash out at Robin and try to make her feel as excluded as Grizel clearly feels from Joey's happiness) to the way she teaches. I always think it's interesting that she's the only female CS teacher who's feared to the extent that prefects groan about having to be music prefect - otherwise, you only get that with slightly cartoonish temper-throwing male teachers like Herr Anserl and Herr Laubach. But Grizel is a scary music teacher because she's unhappy.

In some ways she's the longest-term 'problem CS girl' in the series, and the CS cares for her and helps her, but doesn't 'cure' her. I suppose you could say that the CS, as well as being her surrogate family, also becomes a kind of prison for her, because it's there she has to live out the career she obviously hates for quite a while. (How old is she when Hilda buys her into the business with Deira?)

Do other people think that the thwarted career thing is really what's behind her unhappiness? Or is that just the way she explains it to herself, when the fact is, she had an awful childhood, ricocheting from a loving grandmother to a repellent father and a fairy-tale nasty stepmother, neither of whom wanted her - which must have left marks on her adult sense of self? Because I sometimes think that - because, after all she teaches at the CS, where it's known to at least some of the other staff she wanted to be a games mistress - she could have easily been given some games teaching. They seem perennially short-handed, and by the later books lots of the other teachers are helping out with games coaching. If that was all that was wrong, it could surely have been fixed? But I have difficulty in believing that if she'd been able to train for what she wanted, she'd have been a jolly, ordinary Miss Burnett type. I think myself she simply suffered from an absence of love and being first with someone.
.
Author:  Lesley [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think she's more suffering from stress than depression. Whether Deira really did take the man she loved is not confirmed - all we have is a few thoughts from Grizel and some conjection from Rosalie I think. Possibly, like a lot of problems with stress, it was a cumulative problem - she had a long history of emotional abuse from her step-mother and was well aware, from an early age, that her father cared nothing for her feelings and wants. She's stopped from doing something she really wanted - whether she would have been good at it is unknown - she may even have hated it! But because she cannot do it the lack becomes more and more magnified. Especially when she finds that the only thing she can do is something she really does not enjoy.

She sees her friends happy either with their own families or with careers they want and love while she is prevented from doing what she wants even after her father's death because he gives her step-mother control of the finances (And here we have quite possibly the most neglectful and unthinking of men - even more so than Prof Richardson)

When, finally, she gets to leave the CS to go to the other side of the world to open a business vebture with her friend she must have thought her luck had changed - instead she has to care for Deira through the most horrendous of times - the slow deterioration and death of her child. Then, at a time when she might have felt that she could finally start to recover she is faced with the marriage of her friend to a man of whom she was at least fond and the realisation that she was, once more, alone. Hearing of her step-mother's death must have been the last straw - that this should happen far too late to be of any benefit mingled with guilt that she feel no sorrow for the death of a woman who made her life a misery.

All in all it;s no wonder that she wants to withdraw from the world and feels herself to be totally divorced from it. :cry:
Author:  Emma A [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
...Do other people think that the thwarted career thing is really what's behind her unhappiness? Or is that just the way she explains it to herself, when the fact is, she had an awful childhood, ricocheting from a loving grandmother to a repellent father and a fairy-tale nasty stepmother, neither of whom wanted her - which must have left marks on her adult sense of self?

Absolutely agree - presumably the career thing didn't help, but it's the fact that ever since her grandmother's death, she has never really been wanted. Joey's her friend at school, for example, but Joey is younger, and has many other friends, and then marries, and so does Juliet, with whom Grizel seems to have real friendship. It's my feeling that the loneliness and bad temper only start manifesting themselves when she's no longer teaching at the Annexe, and Juliet has gone (willing to be corrected, since my Tyrol books are not available to me at the moment).
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
...But I have difficulty in believing that if she'd been able to train for what she wanted, she'd have been a jolly, ordinary Miss Burnett type. I think myself she simply suffered from an absence of love and being first with someone.

I quite agree, though it might have helped that she was doing something she wanted, and it might have led to a rapprochement with her father, if he'd agreed to her training.

I do like the way that EBD allows her to have a chance at happiness, and I do like the way Neil feels about her, since we're allowed to see it. Grizel is almost transformed - by her sufferings, which help to break down her resistance, and then Joey's kindness and care - into a Grizel who can return Neil's love. Her happiness means more to me than Joey's does, for example, because it means more. I have a great fondness for Reunion because of Grizel's story.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Even if she's not clinically depressed, she's certainly under a lot of strain and on the verge of emotional collapse. Apart from the rather twee ending when she's swept off her feet by a handsome doctor - which I don't mind because Grizel deserved a happy ever after story! - I think EBD handles it very well. Reunion is a much more adult book than the rest of the series - and a zillion times better than Jean of Storms which was meant to be an adult book.

I don't think it was just her career that was the problem. As other people have said, she could easily have got involved with PT at the school. She could also have volunteered for a different sort of work during the War. I doubt that Deira "stole" Tony, either: I'd imagine that they were all part of the same group of friends and that Grizel took a shine to him and mistakenly thought he felt the same when he didn't. Easily enough done :roll: !

It's the whole scenario - she lost her mum at an early age; her dad sent her away; her stepmother didn't want her; she wasn't allowed to follow the career she wanted; there never seemed to be any suggestion of her becoming a senior mistress at the CS (if things had been different, she might have been Head of the Annexe after Juliet got married, but because of the Anschluss it never happened); and her friends either married and moved away or, in Joey and Madge's cases, inevitably had less time for her once they had husbands, homes and children. Several mistresses have "best friends" at the school, but Grizel never seems to be very pally with anyone there, even people like Mary and Rosalie whom she'd known all her life.

EBD never seemed very fond of Grizel in earlier books, and I'm so glad that she made it come right for her in the end.
Author:  Emma A [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
...EBD never seemed very fond of Grizel in earlier books, and I'm so glad that she made it come right for her in the end.

I think EBD probably originally drew Grizel as a foil to Joey, in particular, I think, who is charming, friendly, loved and loving, unselfish and for whom almost everything (apart from her health, in the early days) seems to go well. Later, having had this slightly grumpy, sarcastic character in place, I think EBD then used Grizel as a contrast to the loving, wise and understanding teachers.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
EBD never seemed very fond of Grizel in earlier books, and I'm so glad that she made it come right for her in the end.


I always find it kind of odd that we see Grizel make such an excellent Head Girl - she really shines through - and then she kind of goes backwards again, even before she becomes really dissatisfied with her life. It's realistic, I suppose, that she doesn't overcome all her faults, but other characters are allowed to do so.

But then, we also see some genuine moments of kindness from her - I love her attitude towards Gay and Jacynth in Gay from China.

Emma A wrote:
Later, having had this slightly grumpy, sarcastic character in place, I think EBD then used Grizel as a contrast to the loving, wise and understanding teachers.


I think it's more that Grizel's an example of someone who isn't necessarily 'a born teacher', someone who doesn't really love their job. We see a couple of teachers like this (Ricki Fry's old maths teacher, I think?) but Grizel might be the only one of her kind at the Chalet School itself.
Author:  MJKB [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I love Reuniontoo. I love the fact that Grizel is finally allowed to be happy, even if it is with the proverbial doctor. I've always seen Grizel's character as EBD's most finally drawn. She is a very complex character and quite alot of authorial effort goes into analysing her. IMO, Grizel is suffering from depression in Reunion, sparked by a combination of her step-mother's death and what she perceives as Tony's rejection of her.
Author:  Abi [ Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
As Nightwing said, Grizel makes a really good Head Girl, but I'm not sure she realises that herself - I think she finds it very hard to see herself in a positive light. Which is of course very much because of the attitude of her father and stepmother towards her. Also, in a way, she's very much overshadowed by Joey: she makes a good Head, but Joey is better. Grizel becomes a mistress at the Annexe, but Joey becomes a bestselling author. Joey is the one the eligible doctor falls in love with, and even at Joey's wedding Robin is chosen as chief bridesmaid over Grizel. Add this to all the other disappointments she suffers, it must have felt as though nothing ever worked right for her.

I also don't see Deira as being a particularly supportive friend, which is understandable as she must have had a hard time with her daughter, but Grizel could really have used a listening, supporting friend at that point. The death of Moira and marriage of Tony and Deira must have seemed like the final straw.

I don't know enough about depression to say whether she was clinically depressed or not, but I do think she was suffering severely from stress - badly enough that it was affecting her health - and that if it hadn't been for the events of Reunion she would surely have ended up depressed. I really think she deserved a happy ending after all that!
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Abi wrote:
Also, in a way, she's very much overshadowed by Joey: she makes a good Head, but Joey is better. Grizel becomes a mistress at the Annexe, but Joey becomes a bestselling author. Joey is the one the eligible doctor falls in love with


It strikes me that she could just as easily feel the same about Juliet - Juliet is another bad girl who makes good, another excellent Head Girl, she becomes Headmistress while Grizel is only an ordinary mistress, and although Juliet's family history is unhappy Joey thinks of her as a sister and she's accepted into the Bettany clan, at least until she gets married.
Author:  jmc [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Although I do feel sorry for Grizel, I think it's sad that she let it colour her life so much. There are plenty of people who suffer disappointments and setbacks in life and have managed to move on. Not everyone manages to achieve their goals in life at first go but often have to work to find alternative ways to achieve them. In CS land though most people seemed to find their happiness so easily so I guess it rankles a bit that Grizel is one of the only characters to not achieve this state. EBD seemed determined to let Grizel's flaws take over her character although she did relent and give her a happy ending.
Author:  JB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Poor Grizel has to face a life where her father and stepmother don’t care about her and don’t listen to her. Her father decides on her career (although to be fair, she must be pretty talented) and, after his death, her stepmother won’t allow her access any of her inheritance, an action which I can only see as spiteful.

She’s had a miserable childhood and she is a problem pupil for the school from the start, before any difficulties with her career (are we only told about this retrospectively?). She doesn’t want to be friends with Juilet once the latter reforms and we’re told she isn’t a good prefect initially. I find her an odd choice for Head Girl, although she does justify that choice.

I think that she’s always an unhappy person but that she is very stressed when she returns from New Zealand.

She could have used the war as an opportunity to do a different job but then we don’t see any of the major characters doing war work.

I love Reunion and Joey’s kindness to Grizel. It’s great to see Grizel thawing, even before the accident eg when she sees Mary Lou the morning after Doris Carey has died. She really does deserve her happy ending with Neil.

I see Mary Devine’s situation as different. She has very little self-confidence and is always ready to blame herself for perceived failings eg when she is unable to help Jen after her mother’s death. She doesn’t take things out on other people. She also has a very vivid inner life which cushions from the problems in real life. With the help of her new friends, she’s able to channel this into writing and engage with the outside world. I don’t think she has an unhappy childhood, apart from the one instance of her father saying her writing isn’t any good, which she is later unable to put into perspective. She has to deal with some very real problems – lack of money, worries about Biddy – without any support from friends (until she meets the Abbey Girls). She doesn’t have the support network in place with the extended Chalet family that Grizel is lucky to have from the start.

Alison H wrote:

Quote:
Reunion is a much more adult book than the rest of the series - and a zillion times better than Jean of Storms which was meant to be an adult book.


I completely agree. Jean of Storms is quite unpleasant IMO.

Quote:
Nightwing wrote:


Quote:
I'd actually almost be reluctant to call what Grizel has 'Depression', because depression in its modern usage is generally seen as a mental illness - not something that can be effectively cured by a long bed-rest and the love of a doctor!


I think the San undertook a lot of medical trials into this. :wink:
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JB wrote:
Poor Grizel has to face a life where her father and stepmother don’t care about her and don’t listen to her. Her father decides on her career (although to be fair, she must be pretty talented) and, after his death, her stepmother won’t allow her access any of her inheritance, an action which I can only see as spiteful.


I accept that given what we know of Grizel's stepmother, it's quite likely that spite lies behind it - but also, I think, wanting to carry out her husband's wishes for his only daughter. After all, if she really didn't care about Grizel, she could have just given her the money and let her get on with it, never having to see her again, but by holding it back I think she is trying to honour her husband, who I think she loved very much.

This is almost definetely one of the most adult themes in the series, and one which I think EBD handles better than most other themes. We can track the development through the series of Grizel's illness, from the scene in her house with Cookie (who I always think is lovely) right up to setting Len on fire and coming back on the boat almost broken. For once, I really like the EBD coincidence here - Neil knows her before she comes to the San., and so he falls in love with her outside of his role as a doctor but as someone who got to know her as a friend instead. It would have been so easy for him to have been 'just a doctor who happened to be at the San.'

I think that the problems really start for Grizel when she moves to Australia. Before that, although she doesn't like her career, she has the Chalet School, which must have seemed like a home to her, and all the supportive people there. But I think that the guilt of what she nearly did to Len - Joey's child and Madame's niece, after all that they've done for her - combined with the sense of frustration that this only ever reminds her of what she could have had means she has to move on. She just shouldn't have gone to support a grieving friend when she needed support too - she isn't getting the help she needs or able to offer the best help she can to her friend.

But it shows what a lovely person she could be that she was prepared to go halfway around the world and help her friend when she's in a delicate condition herself and could easily have found similar work in the UK. I'm just really pleased that EBD brought her back and showed us her ending, instead of Joey announcing one day she'd got married in Australia.
Author:  Emma A [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
...She just shouldn't have gone to support a grieving friend when she needed support too - she isn't getting the help she needs or able to offer the best help she can to her friend...

To be fair to Deira, they were going to set up a music shop business after Deira was widowed, and Moira's illness (and eventual death) only happened after they had moved to New Zealand - and "off-screen", too.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I can't remember the exact circumstances of her setting fire to Len - I know she throws an unquenched match into a basket of flammable sale things Len is holding, and the sleeve of L's Chinese costume goes on fire - but is the reason she throws down the match without looking something to do with her feeling particularly unhappy or angry at that moment?

(I confess I've always seen it as an (entirely uconscious) desire to damage Joey's happiness. I think what I find so interesting in Grizel is her unattractive but very understandable sense that there's only so much happiness to go round, and other people having lots means there's less of the happiness cake left - I'd link it to her response to Joey's engagement. And maybe, as others have said, to the fact that she only seems to become actively dissatisfied after Juliet leaves the Annexe to marry...? Also to why the Deira/Tom marriage is so devastating for her. It must have something to do with the horrible circumstances of her father's remarriage - his not telling his new wife about Grizel, making her feel always the unwanted third element in a duo from childhood on.)

I also thought her buying in to the business was less out of altruism, but because she really wanted to get as far away from her former life as possible... I'm sure she was brilliant in supporting Deira when she got there, but I think it was just initially relief at a way out of a trap, and that hope you get when you feel unhappy and travel to esdcape...
Author:  JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
I see Mary Devine’s situation as different.... She has to deal with some very real problems – lack of money, worries about Biddy – without any support from friends

And also, IIRC, although I think it's cut from later editions, lost three brothers in the First World War? I think Mary has much more real cause to be withdrawn and depressed than Grizel has.

I think we've discussed before whether Madge was actually right to keep Grizel with the school for so long. It's admirable that she wanted to give Grizel a sense of family and belonging, but she could have encouraged her to find work she enjoyed more, while still telling her to think of the School/the Russell home as her home.

(Incidentally, wasn't Madge in Canada at the time of the big blow-up in Carola? I wonder if Grizel would have turned to Madge if Madge had been available, before she got to the stage of flinging lighted matches around.)

I do think Grizel's state of mind on the voyage from NZ and on her first arrival at Jo's is very well described, and something that's very unusual to find in a book that's part of a girls' series. It wouldn't take much tweaking to turn Reunion into an adult romance. I also think Grizel's characterisation over the whole series to that point is very well done and very realistic.

It was also quite brave of EBD, and her publishers, to devote the major storyline of the book to a character who had been 'offstage' and barely even mentioned for so long, and one who was so 'old' from a schoolgirl reader's perspective - Grizel must have been close to forty by this time.

The happy ending is a bit neat and tidy, but I'm not sure what else EBD could do with Grizel at that stage. She'd tried having her teach at the school, and she wasn't happy. She'd tried sending her off to a new life and new career elsewhere, and that had turned out badly. I think marrying her off to a doctor was the only option if she wanted readers to believe that Grizel really would be happy from now on.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
I can't remember the exact circumstances of her setting fire to Len - I know she throws an unquenched match into a basket of flammable sale things Len is holding, and the sleeve of L's Chinese costume goes on fire - but is the reason she throws down the match without looking something to do with her feeling particularly unhappy or angry at that moment?


In my pb of 'Carola' it says:

Quote:
"Well," went on Grizel dreamily. "I read that letter after I'd told Len and Carola to bring my buys to the music room. I'd just finished it when they arrived. I was raging. I got up and went to the cupboard. I was lighting a cigarette and I threw the match away. It landed on the reed basket Len was carrying. Those things are like tinder.


She's talking to Biddy.

I don't think that anger is even the reason she throws the match - she's just so angry and upset she doesn't think about what she's doing.
Author:  Josette [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I do think Grizel is suffering from at least the beginnings of depression - fortunately Neil and Joey between them catch her at the right time to prevent it becoming full-blown. (If she had been any further down the line, I think a house party full of people and a full programme of expeditions would have been the last thing she needed!)

Cosimo's Jackal - I think that's a very good point about her feeling the "unwanted third" time after time, culminating in Deira's marriage, where she must have felt she was losing both parties in a way.

Interesting about Grizel's time at the Annexe: it's true that we never hear a suggestion she is terrifying while she's a teacher there - only after she joins the school proper. With so many "delicate" pupils there I would think there would have been a lot of concern if she had had that sort of effect on them - so perhaps we can surmise things like Juliet's and Joey's marriages did affect her badly?
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JayB wrote:
I wonder if Grizel would have turned to Madge if Madge had been available, before she got to the stage of flinging lighted matches around.)


Is Emerence already at the school at this point, with her aura of firestarting rebellion? :shock: Thanks, CHubbymonkey - I'd clean forgotten that it's the vicious letter from the stepmother that makes her distracted enough to throw the match down.

It's true she seems content enough at the Annexe when we see her, and it's true that frightening fragile youngsters half to death wouldn't be good. Though I have sometimes wondered whether it was only that the CS authorities knew of her particular circumstances that meant she was never taken to task for being such an impatient and sarcastic teacher at the CS proper. She seems to behave longterm the way other mistresses are only allowed to when they have toothache! I know her circumstances are difficult, but as someone who suffered five years of a vicious-tongued music teacher I was terrified of, I don't think it's fair she passes her dissatisfaction onto her innocent pupils!

I entirely agree about it being brave -and also significant, I think - that EBD finally brings Grizel back as a major plot strand when she's been out of the series for so long. It would have been very easy to give her a happy ending, but just letting by Joey mention getting a letter from her saying she's married and happy in NZ, but EBD chooses the less safe option, giving her ending the close-up treatment. To me, this suggests she had a particular significance for EBD - certainly compared to other formerly significant characters who are technically at the reunion in Reunion, but don't get any narrative attention...
Author:  JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Another thought - I think it's probably significant that Grizel's stepmother had died shortly before the start of Reunion. She's been carrying this huge load of resentment around for years, and now the cause of it is gone, but she has nothing to put in its place. Hence her mental and physical near-collapse.

When she's finally let go of all those old feelings of anger and resentment, she's ready to move forward and form a deep and lasting relationship with Neil. I think her growing love for Len is one of the first signs of her improving mental state - I don't think we've seen Grizel show spontaneous, unselfish affection for anyone since Cookie in School At.

(I doubt if EBD planned it like that, but I think it's a tribute to her characterisation that it all hangs together so well.)
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I often get the impression that Grizel is quite an important character to EBD - the time and attention to detail which is given to her, and the character development in particular, makes her seem almost as important as Madge and Joey - and certainly she is also in the series from the very beginning, probably as much as, say, Madge.

I don't think Grizel is any worse than other mistresses there - 'Bill' and her notable sarcasm, or Matey and her bad temper - it's just that we know, at least partly, the cause with Grizel, which I think makes a difference.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I don't think Grizel is any worse than other mistresses there - 'Bill' and her notable sarcasm, or Matey and her bad temper - it's just that we know, at least partly, the cause with Grizel, which I think makes a difference.


Hmm. Maybe the difference is that EBD presents things like Hilda's 'gentle sarcasm', which makes bad girls weep like fountains, as a good thing, and Bill's as kind of bracing - no one's ever shown as fearing or resenting either of them for it. But Grizel's is written about entirely differently, as though it's a sign of her own damagedness, if you see what I mean.

I'm inclined to agree with you - after all, what makes 'good' sarcasm different from the sarcasm that comes from inner dissatisfaction when you're 14 and in trouble for forgetting your music? - but EBD seems to tell us quite explicitly that for her there's a difference.

I think it's also implied on at least one occasion that her judgement as a teacher is flawed - presumably again because of her 'hardness' becayse of her unhappiness. It would be helpful if I could remember which book or which girl is being discussed, but all I remember is some other mistress rebuking Grizel quite sharply in the staffroom for something negative she has just said about a pupil who is being discussed... Is that ringing any bells with anyone?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
I think it's also implied on at least one occasion that her judgement as a teacher is flawed - presumably again because of her 'hardness' becayse of her unhappiness. It would be helpful if I could remember which book or which girl is being discussed, but all I remember is some other mistress rebuking Grizel quite sharply in the staffroom for something negative she has just said about a pupil who is being discussed... Is that ringing any bells with anyone?


It's ringing bells, but only very distant ones!

I agree that there is a difference in the way EBD presents the two - I suppose because 'Bill' and the Abbess only ever do it when its deserved, while Grizel is like that usually. But at the same time, she can't be the only bad tempered teacher ever, and those who know her do tend to forgive her - plus we see her sensitive side sometimes. I always admire her for the way she forgives Deira - I would be furious if someone destroyed my last letters from someone as close as Grizel's gran was to her, intentionally or otherwise. And of course there is her dealing with Gay and Jacynth, where she shows, to me, what a brilliant teacher she can be.
Author:  JB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

Quote:
I think it's also implied on at least one occasion that her judgement as a teacher is flawed - presumably again because of her 'hardness' becayse of her unhappiness. It would be helpful if I could remember which book or which girl is being discussed, but all I remember is some other mistress rebuking Grizel quite sharply in the staffroom for something negative she has just said about a pupil who is being discussed... Is that ringing any bells with anyone?


It's from Carol and they're talking about her:

Quote:
‘So that explains why she turned up practically minus proper uniform,’ Miss Cochrane said. ‘I thought it was queer that any girl’s people should be so absorbed in departing on a cruise of the Caribbean that they couldn’t even spare the time to have her properly outfitted for school. It also helps to explain how she has heard so many of the really big musical folk. I’ve wondered about that more than once.’

Miss Wilson glanced at her. ‘You never said anything to us about it.’

‘Well, to tell you the truth, I rather thought she was drawing the long-bow, and if it had gone on I meant to come to one of you and suggest you talked to her about the beauties of truth,’ Grizel drawled.

‘I wish you’d try to give people credit for decency, Grizel,’ the Head said impatiently. ‘Is it necessary for you to look on the worst side? Surely, at your age, you must know that there are thousands of folk in the world who are as nice in these matters as you are!’

Miss Cochrane’s pretty face was flooded with crimson. However, she could hardly resent this plain speaking openly, though she felt very indignant about it, and mentally scored a bad mark against Carola for being the cause of her receiving it
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I don't really see that Grizel said anything worse than a lot of other comments we hear staff make about pupils. I think she made a fair point about Carola telling lies - I know that the whole running away to school thing was presented as a bit of a jolly jape, or at worst a case of "I didn't think", but Cousin Maud must have been absolutely frantic when she found that the ship had sailed and there was no sign of Carola.
Author:  lizarfau [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I like Grizel - I think she's one of EBD's most realistic characters. After all, we all go through good and bad times and don't all handle them brilliantly just because we're no longer irresponsible Middles! At least, I don't! :lol:

Everyone's made brilliant points and I don't have too much to add. I just wanted to say that I don't think Grizel would have been a more loved PE teacher than she was a Music teacher - as Games Prefect she's portrayed as hard and unsympathetic to those who aren't good at sport. She'd have made a realistic PE teacher (at least in terms of the ones I encountered), but not a good one. I also think she's not consistently portrayed as bad in terms of her teaching - she is just fab in Gay the way she helps out with Gay's coaching of Jacynth. I think all her problems stem from her childhood. But spare a thought for Mrs Cochrane - she didn't even know of Grizel's existence until after her marriage. She might not have married Mr Cochrane if she'd known he had a teenage daughter, given her lack of maternal feelings.

I agree with the point made above that Grizel travelled to NZ to escape her problems in the UK as much as she did to help Deira. It's also significant, I think, that Grizel's issues teaching-wise begin at around the time Madge starts to be distanced from the school.

ETA: Random thought - do you think that EBD sees Madge and then Joey as someone she'd like to be (successful founder of successful school/bestselling author with masterful but adoring husband and loads of clever kids), but Grizel as a reflection of who she really is (dysfunctional family, the failure of the Margaret Roper school, no husband, no kids)? This might explain her apparent dislike of Grizel.
Author:  JB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think we're meant to disapprove of Grizel's comments. She "drawls" and that's never a good thing in EBD's world. :)

She has only just heard that Carola ran away to school (although the staff had realised there was something unusual about her arrival) so her suspicions that Carola was lying didn't have any basis. It isn't unreasonable that a girl who was educated by a governess and travelled a lot had been to a lot of concerts. It's unusual for a member of staff to assume the worst of a pupil.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JB wrote:
It's unusual for a member of staff to assume the worst of a pupil.


I don't know, I tend to read a lot of "what's she done this time?" in the books, especially with Margot Maynard - everyone seems to go out of their way to tell Kathie that she's trouble but she doesn't mean it. And in 'Ted' don't they decide to keep it from the staff as well (could be making that up)?
Author:  JB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Chubby Monkey wrote:

Quote:
I don't know, I tend to read a lot of "what's she done this time?" in the books, especially with Margot Maynard - everyone seems to go out of their way to tell Kathie that she's trouble but she doesn't mean it.


To me, that's a bit different. Margot is known for getting into trouble, as is Emerence, and I think it's reasonable to brief a new member of staff about her pupils.

Carola isn't a trouble-maker and there's no reason to assume she's a liar, hence the Head's comment:

Quote:
‘I wish you’d try to give people credit for decency, Grizel,’ the Head said impatiently. ‘Is it necessary for you to look on the worst side? Surely, at your age, you must know that there are thousands of folk in the world who are as nice in these matters as you are!
’

It wouldn't be difficult to ask Carola a few gentle questions about the concerts to establish if she was telling the truth, rather than to assume she was lying.

Having said that, Grizel is a very interesting character and I do like her. I think that here EBD is setting the plot up for the episode with Len at the end of the book. Immediately after the paragraphs I quoted earlier, we get a recap of Grizel's history, which would be helpful to a new reader.
Author:  delrima [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
With regard to Grizel's reaction to Joey's engagement and her catty put-down of Robin, I always took it that she had the hots for Jack herself. Can't quote or put my finger on anything, but I would swear that there are a couple of hints in that direction before the SLOC thing happens.

So Tony in NZ wouldn't be the first love she'd lost to someone who was supposed to be a friend.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'd agree that, speaking objectively, Grizel doesn't necessarily say or do 'worse' things than several other mistresses - apart from setting Len on fire! - but EBD appears to draw attention to them differently, though she also suggests they are an understandable, if unpleasant, aspect of Grizel's thwartedness.

I agree that 'drawling' is always a marker of EBD disapproving of someone. Plus, I've sometimes seen Margot as games prefect - a bit of a bully at times, making people so nervous with her nasty comments that they can't play properly - as a version of what Grizel might have been like as games mistress, if it didn't make her happy, as I suspect it wouldn't...?

Thanks for the quote about Carola and lying, JB. Very interesting to see Grizel publicly rebuked so sharply by gentle, fair-minded Hilda - and it's more on moral grounds (assuming the worst on no evidence) than on teaching judgement, which I hadn't remembered - perhaps the sharpness suggests Grizel assuming the worst is a regular occurrence?

Also, because of what so many people said on the 'Bigger Insult' thread about liking the CS as a fairytale comfort read and thus not liking the characters to be criticised or muddied - I'm interested that virtually everyone really likes Grizel, who is in lots of ways (until the very last minute, when EBD gives her a Happy Doctor ending) very much not a fairytale comfort read character at all, but uncomfortable, angry, dissatisfied, lonely etc etc. Is it that it makes it all the sweeter when even this imperfect character gets the EBD Official Stamp of Happy Endingness by bagging a doctor of her own...?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Also, because of what so many people said on the 'Bigger Insult' thread about liking the CS as a fairytale comfort read and thus not liking the characters to be criticised or muddied - I'm interested that virtually everyone really likes Grizel, who is in lots of ways (until the very last minute, when EBD gives her a Happy Doctor ending) very much not a fairytale comfort read character at all, but uncomfortable, angry, dissatisfied, lonely etc etc. Is it that it makes it all the sweeter when even this imperfect character gets the EBD Official Stamp of Happy Endingness by bagging a doctor of her own...?


I think, for me, it's because she's such a real character that I like her so much. She gives the series a realistic edge which helps make it more comforting, and it also shows that even the most unlikely of us can get our happy ending at the least expected time.

I'd agree that there is something between Grizel and Jack - though maybe not reciprocated. But I do think Grizel's reaction is more than just feeling excluded by a friend. Though I question if, had there been, she would have turned to Joey when it happened again.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I don't necessarily find her a likeable person. I think she's very well written, and very believable, and therefore interesting to read about, even more so from an adult perspective than a child's. Unlike Jo or Madge, both of whose character development stops at a fairly early stage in the series, EBD does find new things to do with Grizel. I imagine if the CS was being made into a tv series, many actresses would regard Grizel as a more interesting role to play than Madge or Jo or Hilda.

Quote:
With regard to Grizel's reaction to Joey's engagement and her catty put-down of Robin, I always took it that she had the hots for Jack herself.

I think that's quite plausible, but another example of Grizel's self-absorption and lack of awareness of others' feelings. We have no indication that Jack is ever more than ordinarily polite and friendly towards her, and Marie noticed Jack's interest in Jo while they were still at school, which would be, what, nearly two years before their engagement?

It's quite possible the Grizel/Tony/Deira triangle was similar, with Tony's interest in Deira being obvious to everyone but Grizel, who built up ordinary friendliness towards herself into something much more than it actually was, and so was devastated when she discovered what was actually going on.
Author:  Jennie [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I feel that one of Grizel's problems is common or garden exhaustion. When she was a child, her mother was always ill, so Grizel had to be quiet and good, then she was sent away to her grandmother who spoiled her. The return to her father was a shock, especially as her stepmother was so awful and seems to have resented Grizel's very existence. then came the systematic breaking of the child's will, and only when she went to Austria was she allowed some personal freedom.

I think she made a good Head Girl, but by then she was so used to being someone who could never do anything right that she was unable to believe it.

The refusal to allow her to have the career of her choice was another blow. We are told that she was a good musician technically, but was not in herself musical.

Caring for Deira's child must have been a trying experience and must also have taken up a lot of time that Grizel might have used to have a wider social life of her own, instead it seems to have been within a very narrow circle. Deira's marriage to Tony meant that Grizel was left to wind up the business by herself. Deira seems to have left it all to her, not thinking of her own responsibilities in the matter.

So, part of Grizel's problems was the sheer pure physical strain of living through another day without the strength to do everything she had to, but knowing that the work had to be done.

Then, the thought of disentangling her father's will and business affairs would make it seem an almost impossible burden. As a barrister, he ought to have known that he was leaving an enormous amount of work behind for whoever finally had to settle his estate. As a father, he ought to have left Grizel's money to her, even in the care of a trustee until she was thirty-five, but to have left it in the keeping of a woman whom he knew really disliked his only daughter was truly the unkindest cut of all.

Is there any wonder that as a character, Grizel is described as hard? To my mind, she was also someone at the end of her tether, physically and emotionally, and though I cannot agree with Jack's treatment of her in deceiving her, which might, in the end, have caused her more physical problems, he was correct that she needed a good long rest.

The real question was whether the Reunion was a good thing for her. it was well-intentioned, but disastrous for someone who needed to sleep more than anything else.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
delrima wrote:
With regard to Grizel's reaction to Joey's engagement and her catty put-down of Robin, I always took it that she had the hots for Jack herself. Can't quote or put my finger on anything, but I would swear that there are a couple of hints in that direction before the SLOC thing happens.


I don't think it's Jack so much as Joey - I don't mean she has a lesbian crush on her, or anything (well, I suppose it's possible, but it's not what I read into it), but she does long and long for her friendship in an almost Simone-like way. Hence her sarky remark to the Robin about her nose being out of joint after the engagement.

But before then, this from EXPLOITS when the girls are visiting the Annexe at half-term:

Quote:
Grizel Cochrane, just returned from Spärtz and a somewhat trying music lesson, nodded her prettily shingled head to one or two, and then made for Jo. “You've seen all over it before, Joey. Come upstairs and have a chat with me.” “Can't,” said Jo. “Where's my Robin?” Grizel shrugged her shoulders. “Oh, I forgot her. She's somewhere about.” And she walked off by herself. She wanted to see Jo for a chat, and she was rather inclined to be jealous of the other girl's warm love for little Robin.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I thought that was very rude of Joey, quite honestly. Could she not have said "I'd like to see Robin first - could you and I catch up later?" instead of just "Can't"? I also think it was extremely rude of Joey to let Robin tell Grizel about her engagement: I'd certainly be very upset if I'd had to hear of an old and close friend's engagement second-hand rather than from the person herself. Grizel's jealousy isn't very nice, and she had no business making that comment to Robin about her nose being out of joint, but Joey handles things really badly IMHO.

There's something in (I think) Exploits in which Jack teases Grizel, Grizel pretends to be offended, Juliet tries to smooth the waters and Jack laughs and says that he and Grizel understand each other ... they seem quite close there.
Author:  Liz K [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with you - after all, what makes 'good' sarcasm different from the sarcasm that comes from inner dissatisfaction when you're 14 and in trouble for forgetting your music? - but EBD seems to tell us quite explicitly that for her there's a difference.
[/quote]

The teacher who taught German at my secondary school could be quite sarcastic; she pulled me up once for using the wrong verb and to this day I've remembered, just because she was so sarcastic to me, yet come the day I was doing an oral exam with her for real as part of my CSE exams (I'm showing my age now!), she only asked me a few questions, keeping me for no longer than 5 minutes, so she could be human.

ETA about Grizel hearing about Joey's engagement from Robin: I wanted my ex's cousin to be chief bridesmaid but didn't get the chance to ask her myself in the first place, my ex-MIL got there first and she came back and told me Sally didn't want to be bridesmaid. I wonder now, all these years later exactly what was said to make Sally decide that.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
There's something in (I think) Exploits in which Jack teases Grizel, Grizel pretends to be offended, Juliet tries to smooth the waters and Jack laughs and says that he and Grizel understand each other ... they seem quite close there.


I know the scene you mean, but a quick flick through 'Exploits' hasn't revealed anything. I'll go and have a look through the others in a minute - but yes, I remember thinking that made them seem quite close, too.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Yes, I also think it's about Joey, rather than about Jack. It's another example of someone, like Simone, wanting to be higher up on Joey's personal totem pole then she wants them to be, and her (rather more brutally with Grizel than with Simone) making it quite plain where they stand. Joey getting engaged has just pushed her further down the pecking order, which is why she's so quick (and cruel) to point out to Robin that she will no longer be first with Joey either.

But Simone is clingy and shy and a bit juvenile at the start - it's not surprising that the Joey/Simone friendship is a bit one-sided as relationships go when they're both still at school - though Joey does make an effort to be nice to her at least sometimes. But it's interesting to see that Grizel, who is older than Joey and is in many ways as strong a character, has herself been a very popular schoolgirl and head girl, and (certainly by Exile) has a post-CS life of her own - even with all this, she's still thirsting for Joey's attention, and making bids for it, and resenting it when she doesn't get it. She's the one running after Joey, and it's clear at the Annexe visit and with the engagement announcement that she perceives the inequality and resents being overlooked in favour of Robin.

But I don't ever remember Grizel running after Joey like this when they were both at school. If anything, they had quite different circles from School At on, and in Camp, Joey seems to deliberately needle Grizel by calling her 'my child' in public, which I wouldn't have thought would endear Joey to her.

I wonder why she seems more anxious to stake a claim to Joey after she herself has left school...?
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
What happened to her friendship with Gerry Challoner? Gerry was never mentioned again after Rivals :? .
Author:  JayB [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
What happened to her friendship with Gerry Challoner? Gerry was never mentioned again after Rivals :? .


Good point. Joey spends weekends with the Mensches, goes to Belsornia, goes to India and makes new friends there, but we never hear of Grizel having her own circle of friends and going off to pay visits in the holidays.

EBD has someone say that if Mary Lou couldn't do what she originally planned, she wouldn't let it ruin her life. It seems to me that Grizel, for a long time, did let resentment spoil her life. There must have been things she could do to make life more enjoyable for herself. Travel, perhaps joining a tour if Rosalie or someone didn't want to go with her, going to a summer school of some kind, running a sports club up at the Sonnalpe, etc. etc.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JayB wrote:

EBD has someone say that if Mary Lou couldn't do what she originally planned, she wouldn't let it ruin her life. It seems to me that Grizel, for a long time, did let resentment spoil her life.


Joey says it. But I think you've put your finger on the difference between Grizel and Mary-Lou. Mary-Lou, despite her relative isolation and her father's absence, had a happy, secure childhood as the focus of her mother and grandmother's love and attention. Grizel was alternately spoiled and neglected/bullied, and after her father's remarriage, lived in the knowledge that he'd 'tricked' her new stepmother by not mentioning his daughter till after they were married.

(Can you imagine how you'd feel, being temporarily but totally deleted from your father's life like that, wondering why he'd done it - did he assume or know his new woman wouldn't marry him if he admitted to a child? Did he plan the deception, or just found it had become 'too late' to tell about Grizel? Actually, when you think about it, it's heartbreaking, maybe the saddest thing in the series - Grizel presumably thought her new stepmother knew all about her, and maybe she hoped she would be loving and supportive, and then her father and his new wife get back from the honeymoon, and there's Grizel, only a child, realising her very existence is a horrible shock to this stranger that she now has to live with...)

But in any case, I think Mary-Lou got a secure sense of self from a good start in life, whereas Grizel seems to have learned to regard herself as an unwanted nuisance. I think that's the difference in how they respond to a setback. OOAO thinks 'I won't let this beat me - how can I find another way of being fulfilled?' but Grizel feels defeated from the outset, because her early experiences have warped her into not expecting happiness.

Come to think of it, in some ways they face the same setback - something to do with a parent is stopping them from the career they have worked for. But there's a difference between making a sacrifice freely for a loved parent, and being arbitrarily prevented from achieving your greatest ambition by a parent out of spite...?
Author:  Tor [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
JayB
wrote

Quote:
I doubt if EBD planned it like that, but I think it's a tribute to her characterisation that it all hangs together so well


Yes, I think this about Grizel's character development (if that is a phrase..). I think Grizel is definitely one of EBDs charatcers that wrote themselves,and is all the more realistic for the fact she isn't burdened with making her an idealized realisation of a REAL Chalet School Girl (TM). In fact, I'm with lizafrau:

Lizafrau wrote
Quote:
ETA: Random thought - do you think that EBD sees Madge and then Joey as someone she'd like to be (successful founder of successful school/bestselling author with masterful but adoring husband and loads of clever kids), but Grizel as a reflection of who she really is (dysfunctional family, the failure of the Margaret Roper school, no husband, no kids)? This might explain her apparent dislike of Grizel


Liss (I think) made this point on a thread a while back (FD: Reunion...?), and I really liked it as then an idea!

Quote:
But there's a difference between making a sacrifice freely for a loved parent, and being prevented from achieving your greatest ambition by a parent you hate out of spite...?


This is fundamental, both as reflecting a realistic sense of characterisationby EBD, and also judging Grizel as a 'real' character. Mary-Lou made her own choice, Grizel did not.
Author:  Lesley [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Thanks for the quote about Carola and lying, JB. Very interesting to see Grizel publicly rebuked so sharply by gentle, fair-minded Hilda - and it's more on moral grounds (assuming the worst on no evidence) than on teaching judgement, which I hadn't remembered - perhaps the sharpness suggests Grizel assuming the worst is a regular occurrence?


Actually I think that was said by Miss Wilson, not Hilda Annersley - at the time they were doing to Joint Heads bit.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Two bits from Exploits, both from half-term at the Sonnalpe:

Quote:
"Rather! – Oh, don't bother to come, Dr Jem! It's a beautiful night, and no one is likely to run away with us.
"If they did, they'd drop you at the first light," said Dr Maynard with a grin.
"How rude!" Grizel elevated her nose.
"But, how true!" chuckled Dr Jem. "You had her that time, Jack!"
Grizel stalked out of the room with dignity, and Juliet followed her after anxiously assuring Dr Jack Maynard that it was all pretence on Grizel's part.
"As if I didn't know it," he laughed. "Don't worry, Juliet. I understand Grizel. She and Joey are going to have the holiday of their lives this Christmas!"
"If you are going to torment them all the time –


This sounds tantalisingly as if Jack has a similarly teasing relationship with both Grizel and Joey - perhaps he hasn't yet irrevocably made his mind up to pursue Joey...?

And I'd never noticed this bit before - poor Grizel keeps proposing herself as various forms of bridesmaid and being passed over!

Quote:
Juliet coloured furiously. "You know quite well that Donald and I can't be married for three years at least. I hope I shall be here till then. I want to be married from here."
"Do! And I'll be your bridesmaid."
"No; only Joey and the Robin will do that. But you shall be in attendance, Grizel," she added. "Anyway, it's three years ahead, and you may be married yourself by that time."
"No jolly fear! I mean to be like Joey and live a bachelor woman!" retorted Grizel firmly.
"I don't think Joey will end up like that," said Juliet thoughtfully.
"Why do you say that? She always vows she will.


I feel for Grizel here - EBD doesn't like people putting themselves forward for things, but surely it's not not unreasonable for Grizel to expect to be bridesmaid for someone with no blood relatives, who's been a friend since her early days at the CS and who is now her main colleague at the Annexe. And the way Juliet dismisses it is quite categorical, as if it should be obvious that 'only Joey and the Robin' are eligible, just as Joey assumes later that it's obvious that Robin will take precedence as chief bridesmaid...

I also find it interesting here that Grizel declares she's going to 'be like Joey and live a bachelor woman' - both that she's comparing herself to a younger girl who's still at school, and that it maybe seems important to her that she and Joey both remain single...?
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
But I don't ever remember Grizel running after Joey like this when they were both at school. If anything, they had quite different circles from School At on, and in Camp, Joey seems to deliberately needle Grizel by calling her 'my child' in public, which I wouldn't have thought would endear Joey to her.


Isn't it Grizel who calls Joey 'child'?
Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
This has been a fascinating discussion to read through!

Just one small thing to add, could it be that Grizel's sudden desire to be close to Joey after leaving school is more a desire for a sister than a friend? Just having looked back at the past few quotes, Juliet thinks it obvious that only Joey and Robin will be bridesmaids, Joey says that Robin will be chief bridesmaid (and I'm sure she says something like "only a sister can be that"), which makes it seem that at this stage at least, the three of them consider themselves to be as good as sisters. Grizel, who has known and stayed with Joey and Madge for longer than either of the other two, seems to be somehow left just outside the enchanted circle. She's an old friend of Joey's but no necessarily a very close one as they've always clashed in temperament and interests, and I never get the impression she was all that close to the Robin despite (presumably) spending so much time with her. Juliet she does seem close to, yet something still apparently excludes her from being considered as a bridesmaid. Maybe it's partly the fact that she does have access to family in a way that Juliet and Robin don't, so that Madge wouldn't feel comfortable "adopting" her, but it does seem that, while she has just as strong a claim as either of the other two to "belong" to that family up at the Sonnalpe, somehow she doesn't quite. It strikes me that she wanted to be a part of what they had, but couldn't quite work out how to break into it.

I really hope that makes sense! Apologies if it doesn't- I may come back later when I'm a bit more awake and try again!
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Thanks Cosimo's Jackal - that's the bit from Exploits I meant :D . Also, when Grizel hears of Joey's engagement, she says she can't believe that "even Jack Maynard" could change Joey's mind about marriage - does the "even" suggest that she thinks Jack's something a bit special ... ?

By the time Joey gets engaged, most of the rest of those of their friends living locally are already engaged or married, and some have children. Rosalie isn't - it's a shame that she and Grizel, who'd known each other since Taverton days and were the same age, never seemed to become close friends - but most of the others are. Grizel might have felt that she didn't have much in common any more with people like Gisela, and drawn closer to Joey as a result.

I'd forgotten about her wanting to be Juliet's bridesmaid too - that's really interesting. She must have felt very excluded :( . I don't know why Juliet couldn't have asked Grizel too - Bernhilda asked Joey and Robin to be two of her bridesmaids. & then, as soon as Joey and Jack are engaged, Jack starts talking about wanting to look after Joey and Robin, which must have made Grizel feel even more left out.

What you said makes complete sense, Sarah!
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think that makes perfect sense, Sarah (I may just call you Sarah, mayn't I?) Grizel has a family, just not one who want her particularly - I think it's such a shame that Juliet didn't grow closer to her, as they share such a similar background.
Author:  Mel [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Grizel is rejected all her life isn't she? She loses her mother's love when she dies, her grandmother's when she is taken away from her, discovers that her father has none to give, then is treated harshly for no reason by Mrs C. It makes her hard and pricklyand sets up a cycle for rejection that she can never break. I think she is always looking for love, but asks for too much, which is never given, which often happens to abused children. She wants to be part of the Bettany family, but can't be, which makes her sour, especially when she sees Juliet and then Robin welcomed with open arms. When she is punished for bad behaviour (rather harshly by Madge) she sees it as a sign that they don't love her, and runs away. she tries friendship with Wanda who is rather shocked by her. She is unpleasant to Jo, Simone, Robin etc but doesn' seem to be able to work out that she will never be close to anyone until she is 'nicer.' Her choice of career is unrealistic because she should have known that she would not make a good games teacher. We are told that she has no imagination and this to me is shown in the fact that she doesn't know how she appears and behaves to other people. So she is nothing like a sister to Juliet and Jo therefore isn't chosen as Chief Bridesmaid, isn't chosen by Deira's Tom(?) I think this cycle is broken in Reunion when at last a man cares for her and more importantly she begins to love unconditionally, especially with Len ( though I don't like her remarks about Margot). In modern times I think she definitely would have been referred for therapy or counselling.
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think the thing that makes sense of Grizel seeming to be more preoccupied with Joey and resentful of Robin by the time she's teaching at the Annexe - is that her own family (over the career thing) is demonstrating itself increasingly cold and unloving, and here's a non-traditional substitute.

The Die Rosen family must have seemed as though it was flexible enough to include her, and it seems to me that her two bids to be Juliet's bridesmaid and Joey's chief bridesmaid are kind of attempts to claim them as sisters. But she's shot down both times for other non-blood relationships. I know Joey has always regarded Robin as her adopted sister - though in fact she's her niece by adoption, really, if she's Madge's adoptee - even though Madge didn't adopt Robin until after Capt Humphries death. Grizel spends very little time with her father and stepmother, and seems to live more or less at the CS, and then at Die Rosen after Madge's marriage, which seems to make the difference between her and Robin more to do with how Joey regards the two of them...?

And Juliet's bond to Die Rosen is a lot more complicated, I'd have said. She's left on the hands of Madge as CS Head, rather than as an individual, and there's an implicit arrangement at the start that she will increasingly act as a kind of student-teacher. Does Madge actually adopt her? At any rate, her relationship to the adopted daughter and sister of the ex-Head of the school where she was abandoned by her own dastardly parents doesn't to me suggest Grizel should have automatically known that Joey and Robin are suitable for more prominent roles in the wedding than she is, as a long-established friend, fellow-inmate of Die Rosen and now colleague.

Does that make sense? Grizel keeps seeing people being happily absorbed into the Die Rosen family - where she may have thought she belonged too, and where Madge, like the complete opposite of her stepmother, is prepared to take in all kinds of people she has no blood relation to - and is feeling left out when it becomes clear she's not seen by either Juliet or Joey as an adoptive sister in the same way as they regard one another and Robin. I think that's why she experiences Joey's engagement as another exclusion, lashes out at Robin as someone else she thinks may be feeling left out, but then discovers that Robin gets the special sister role as chief bridesmaid...

It never occurred to me to think that Grizel would be more accepted as a sister by Juliet or Joey if she'd been nicer, but maybe you're right, Mel...
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Sunglass wrote:
It never occurred to me to think that Grizel would be more accepted as a sister by Juliet or Joey if she'd been nicer, but maybe you're right, Mel...


I don't know, it seems like a catch-22 to me - she'd be nicer if she felt like part of the family, but she won't be accepted as part of the family until she's nicer.

I think Madge, at least, could have been more sensitive to her feelings and tried to reassure and help her instead of adding to her feelings of exclusion. Even if she just had a quiet word along the lines of "you know you'll always have a home with us" it might have helped Grizel to feel more included.
Author:  JayB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
I think the thing that makes sense of Grizel seeming to be more preoccupied with Joey and resentful of Robin by the time she's teaching at the Annexe - is that her own family (over the career thing) is demonstrating itself increasingly cold and unloving, and here's a non-traditional substitute.

This is also the point at which Jo is most obsessive over the Robin - Jo's own reaction, possibly, to no longer coming first with Madge. And Jo is also still very immature, and despite what we're told in later books, not very good at seeing another person's point of view.

Grizel is older, has been away to college and is now a teacher. She's perhaps now expecting to interact with Joey on a more adult basis - chats in her room rather than charades in the Salon. She (quite rightly) thinks that Jo's obsession with the Robin is a bit excessive, but being Grizel, can't make allowances for Jo's feelings, and the fact that Jo is still very much a schoolgirl.

Once Jo has left school and got a little more life experience, the two year age gap between them won't matter, but at this point, it makes for a huge difference in experience and maturity, which neither of them is really capable of bridging.
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Sunglass, you make perfect sense.

I think a reason for the difference may be that Juliet and Robin were part of the family in that they spent holidays together with Madge and Joey, and the Chalet was the only home they had. The amount of time they spent together out of school must have brought them closer and we see this as early as Princess. Grizel did (I think) spend some holidays with her own family, however lacking as a family they were.

I'm not sure how to put this without sounding cynical (which isn't how I feel) but it seems to me that Juliet's position changes once Captain Carrick dies and she inherits his ill-gotten gains. Up until that point she's a potential burden on Madge, someone who a few months earlier opened a school as a way out of her own financial difficulties.

Madge is named as Juliet's guardian in Captain Carrick's will and is responsible for the Robin while Ted Humphries is in Russia. Her responsibility to Grizel is of a different kind; something more than headmistress but she's not a member of the family. Grizel's status seems to be somewhere between that of Juliet and Robin, and that of Stacie and the Lintons for whom the Russells also have a level of responsibility.

None of this is to say that I don't feel huge sympathy for Grizel (including over the bridesmaid issue), particularly in light of Mia's comment below:

Quote:
I think she is always looking for love, but asks for too much, which is never given, which often happens to abused children.
Author:  ClaireK [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I do find it strange taht Grizle is never really seen as a financially independant woman. She's got skills- she is a teaher and presumably earns a decent salary. Other women in the same position were maintaining their own households - yet she never seems to. But then I suppose none of the staff seem to have their own houses - it sounds like during the holidays they either go home to relatives or on trips with one another. So none of them has ever made the emotional break from home and the steps into maturity that having your own house would entail.
Did EBD unconsciously tink that only married women should have homes???
ClaireK
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Claire K wrote:

Quote:
Did EBD unconsciously tink that only married women should have homes???


Miss Wilson has a cottage somewhere (Dartmoor?). Con Stewart has been staying with here before the school reopens on Guernsey and I think it's mentioned afterwards as having been lent to a cousin of Nell's "for the duration" (at the start of Lavender as a reason why she stayed at the school for Christmas?).

EBD didn't own a house and doesn't appear to have been concerned about any lack of independence, so perhaps this colours her stance in the books. Apart from the time she was away teaching, she lived with her mother (and then stepfather) in South Shields and then Hereford. After her mother's death (when she presumaby inherited the house in Hereford), she house-shared with the Matthewmans.

Practically speaking, it would have been much harder for a single woman to get a mortgage. My great aunt, a teacher, had to get a male cousin to act as guarantor when she took out a mortgage in the late 1940s/early 1950s.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'm not sure that Grizel would have been able to afford to buy a house outright, and in those days it could be difficult for a single woman to get a mortgage, and it wouldn't have been worth renting somewhere long-term if she was only going to be there in school holidays. It's a shame that she didn't have her own home though, as you say.

We're told in School At that the Bettanys and the Cochranes were old friends - I can't imagine Madge being particularly friendly with Mr and Mrs C, but it sounds as if the families knew each other well - so Madge might have felt awkward about assuming too much of a motherly role towards Grizel. Also, it's quite possible that, with Jem, her young children, Dick and Mollie's children, the Venables family, Robin, Joey and Stacie to look after, and still being involved with the school, Madge just had too much on to find time for Grizel. Madge in the Tyrol books is a lovely person, and I know that she had Marie and Rosa to do much of the actual housework and childcare, but with so many people competing for her attention Grizel may just have got pushed to the back of the queue.
Author:  Tor [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Another aspect of Grizel's misery might stem from the fact that she has no outlet for complaint. Juliet, for example, can wash her hands of her parents behaviour becasue (i) they are dea and (ii) they are acknowledged by all an sundry to be very much in the wrong. So whilst she must have been terribly hurt at their abandonment, at least her feelings are somewhat legitimized.

Grizel, on the other hand, has to maintian some kind of semblance of respectful behaviour to her father and step-mother, and is most likely to be chastised (albeit gently, and with some understanding) if she openly criticizes them. I am thinking of the scene in School at where Grizel shocks Rosalie and Mary, and earns the (hidden) sympathy of Mrs Dene (I think they are characters) by being so vehemently glad to be leaving home. I also can't imagine any of the Tirolean father-figures, Jem or Madge allowing Grizel to seak badly about her family, and similarly they would not take her into the Die Rosen extended family.

In part I feel that this is due to a general lack of awareness of the problems relating to psychological abuse which EBD appears to uphold (buck up etc), yet manages to demonstrate an instinctive understanding of by her depiction of Grizel and Grizel's very realistic character development.
Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JB wrote:
Madge is named as Juliet's guardian in Captain Carrick's will and is responsible for the Robin while Ted Humphries is in Russia. Her responsibility to Grizel is of a different kind; something more than headmistress but she's not a member of the family. Grizel's status seems to be somewhere between that of Juliet and Robin, and that of Stacie and the Lintons for whom the Russells also have a level of responsibility.


I think one of the things that would have stopped Grizel from being adopted into the family is that however bad her home situation was, she was a paying pupil. Her father strikes me as being a proud, headstrong character - not unlike Grizel in a way - and if he thought that his own fatherly bond was being undermined by Madge he could easily have taken her out of the school, and that not only would have lost a pupil but it would have been worse for Grizel.

I don't blame Grizel at all, but it seems to me that she's always jumping from friendship to friendship which means she never really has a chance to form a close bond with anyone. She's probably looking for someone to love her, but she also wants it instantly - when she isn't immediately loved by her new friend she grows bored and moves onto someone else.

I also don't think that Grizel is necessarily pushing to be one of Juliet's bridesmaids - she sounds to me as though she's teasing/joking a little, and Juliet happens to take her seriously due to her own embarrassment over being engaged.
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think house ownership as a sort of definition of adulthood would have been far, far rarer for women in the earlier days of the CS - even though it seems so infantilising to us that an independent 30something professional like Rosalie Dene has only her room at the CS and spends holidays with her father and stepmother (with whom it's suggested there are slight tensions, in that Rosalie thinks she would be resented if she lived 'at home' permamently)... The assumption was that you only needed a house if you married - look at all the unmarried doctors and teachers living in rented rooms in Jean of Storms - unless you were left one by a relative...

JayB wrote:

Grizel is older, has been away to college and is now a teacher. She's perhaps now expecting to interact with Joey on a more adult basis - chats in her room rather than charades in the Salon. She (quite rightly) thinks that Jo's obsession with the Robin is a bit excessive, but being Grizel, can't make allowances for Jo's feelings, and the fact that Jo is still very much a schoolgirl.


I think that's right - and especially about Joey's relationship to the Robin being partly about Madge's marriage. But I still think it's interesting that Grizel in Exploits is saying she's going to be a 'like Joey and live a bachelor woman'. It feels odd to me in the circumstances when, as you say, Grizel is presumably more conscious of the age gap between her and the mentally and actually younger Joey, yet seems to be looking to her here for a lead.

I realise everyone else is getting married all round, and there aren't too many other candidates for remaining unmarried, but it interests me that strong-willed, sophisticated older Grizel doesn't just say 'I don't plan to marry' - which is hardly surprising, as the model of her father's second marriage wouldn't make you want to rush to the altar! - but bolsters herself with the example of a significantly younger schoolgirl who seems to be still (to me anyway) at the 'boys are yucky' stage!

You're entirely right about the excessive Joey-Robin relationship in Exploits though -

Quote:
The Robin gave a little cry, and fell into the elder girl's open arms sobbing with excitement and happiness.


I'd find this completely understandable if they were being reunited after a long or dangerous separation, but this is only three weeks after half-term, when the Annexe migrates down to the CS for the last fortnight of term! It sounds a bit hysterical for a ten year old to sob with happiness in the circumstances!

And I agree entirely, Tor, on Grizel having to do lip-service daughterly piety and possibly envying Juliet's much less equivocal position as regards her own parents, which of course in turn means she's more freely absorbed into Die Rosen.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Perhaps Mrs Bettany was friends with Mrs Cochrane the First, and they helped to look after Madge and Dick after their parents died? Or the same with the fathers?

There's the part in 'Eustacia' where Mrs Cochrane goes on about how happy Grizel is at the school and offers to show some of her letters, which suggests that Grizel wrote regularly even if she didn't want to. In that sense she had a home, unlike Juliet and the Robin who had no-one, and of course there is the 'love they father' angle too. I think Madge would have preferred to encourage Grizel to make a home at home than join her family.

And of course she had Jem and Davey to look after, as well as her numerous wards - and unlike Joey she isn't superwoman! But I still think, knowing what she did of Grizel's background, she might have noticed how lonely Grizel seems to be feeling.
Author:  JayB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Re: single women getting mortages - my aunt, an infant school headmistress in her forties, had difficulty as late as the mid '60s. She had to go to a mortgage broker in the end, rather than just getting one through a High Street building society. And overall, even for families, renting was much more common than buying up to the 1960s, I think. It was certainly the norm before the war.

Of my three unmarried aunts, one stayed at home with her mother until her mother died, then continued in the (rented) family home until she herself married late in life. On the other side of the family, one lived with her mother until she died, in rented flats, then continued in rented rooms or flats the rest of her life. Another, the headmistress, started out as a nanny living in employers' homes, then in the war was a children's nurse living in hospital accommodation, then trained as a teacher and lived in rented rooms until she bought her own flat in the '60s - with the difficulties mentioned above.
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Sunglass wrote:

Quote:
I realise everyone else is getting married all round, and there aren't too many other candidates for remaining unmarried ..


There are, of course, the teachers at the Chalet School. :)

It is interesting that Grizel aligns herself with the younger (and immature) Joey, rather than establishing friendships with the other mistresses.
Author:  JayB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
....rather than establishing friendships with the other mistresses.


I suppose she might still see them as mistresses, and of an older generation, even though there wasn't in fact that big an age gap between her and Miss Wilson and Miss Stewart. But the first move would probably have to come from them - 'I think you might use our first names now, Grizel' or invitations to go for a ramble or a day trip to Innsbruck and so on. But with Grizel up at the Sonnalpe and them down by the lake, it couldn't have been that easy to socialise.
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'm not suggesting Madge didn't do enough for Grizel - it's clear Madge is something of a saint at this point! - or that Grizel feels that, really. I'm sure she knows she will always have a place at Die Rosen, it's more that Die Rosen is becoming such a huge household (with Peggy and Rix, Robin and Stacie and Captain Humphries and Jack all living there at this point, as well Madge, Jem, David and Joey, and the servants and their children, and there usually being CS girls visiting the San or Annexe for weekends or in the holidays) that Grizel seems to be trying to make sure she's included in the 'inner circle', the 'real' (if not all blood-related) family.

I suppose she might be conscious that not all that many years earlier, she, Joey and Madge set off from England as a trio, and now Madge has her own family and Joey has developed a pair of adoptive sisters in Juliet and Robin, who seem to have leapfrogged over Grizel's place in the original group who left England together?

And I'd agree that Grizel's proposing herself as Juliet's bridesmaid is mostly jokey, but I think it becomes one of those uncomfortable joke situations where the response the other person makes shows that they have in fact given the matter serious thought...
Author:  Mel [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I'm not a huge Madge fan, but I wonder if she contrived the job for Grizel at the Annexe. They did not need a music teacher and could have made do with visiting staff or someone in the San community could have given piano lessons. The alternative for Grizel would have been living at home and perhaps dire 'musical evenings' arranged by the odious Mrs C, as well as making herself useful in the Parish. As it was, though presumably a relief to Grizel, she must have had a lot of free time then and in the rest of her teaching career. Accompanying at Prayers and Singing, with lessons fitted in would leave most of the day free, with no marking or prep etc. Would she have been paid the same amount as the other staff?
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Off the point a bit, but when Sunglass points out the very weighty numbers in the Die Rosen household it put me in mind of Southfork- Dallas.
This is a really interesting discussion and every point that I thought of about Grizel has been covered. It must have been so hard for Grizel seeing Robin and Juliet seamlessly absorbed into the Bettany/Russell family when she probably regarded her claim to their affections to be higher on account of having known them longer. She had the added stress of having to contain her bitterness against her father and step-mother since she certainly would have been pulled up sharply if she gave vent to those feelings. One didn't wash one's dirty laundry....in those days. I doubt if even Mary-LOu would have coped easily with Grizel's family circumstances.
Someone made the point that the second Mrs.C may have witheld the money from Grizel in the genuine belief that she was carrying out her husband's wishes. I doubt this. She sounds like a very controlling woman and by not cutting Grizel loose she kept her conrol over her. Horrible, horrible woman.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Just been re-reading a bit of Reunion, and towards the end of it Jack tells Grizel, half-seriously and half-jokingly, that seeing as she rescued Len she's now entitled to count herself as part of the Maynard family and to count their home as hers. Grizel takes it all literally and tells him that he doesn't know how much it means to her to hear that and that it was worth suffering the accident for.
Author:  Tor [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
Grizel takes it all literally and tells him that he doesn't know how much it means to her to hear that and that it was worth suffering the accident for.


Oh don't, that actually made me almost cry at my desk. Grizel's story really moves me the most of all the CS characters. She is definitiely far more than the sum of her parts, and one of EBDs literary triumphs.

If we take lizerfrau/Liss' idea of Grizel being the manisfestation of EBD as she actually was, this makes for quite a sad reflection of EBDs level of happiness. but it also makes the happy ending in Reunion very poignant. The fact that Grizel was chosen as the focus of Reunion, the celebratory 50th CS book, may even be very telling - maybe EBD had found some kind contentment herself.

Grandiose and unsubstantiated theory, obviously, but do we know whatwas going on in EBDs life at the time Reunion was being written...?
Author:  tiffinata [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
- she has to rely on Miss Annersley to get the job she wants in Australia,



She went to New Zealand.
Author:  JB [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Tor wrote:

Quote:
Grandiose and unsubstantiated theory, obviously, but do we know whatwas going on in EBDs life at the time Reunion was being written...?


After her mother died in 1957 (when she was 63), EBD stayed on in the house in Hereford for 7 years. For some of that time she was caring for at least one of their old lady lodgers. In 1964, she moved to Surrey where she house-shared with Phyllis and Sidney Matthewman. I think, by this point (or soon after), she was having a few minor health problems.

Reunion was published in 1963 (same year as Triplets and Trouble at Skelton Hall), so would have been written while she was still in Hereford.
Author:  MJKB [ Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
EBD must have had a very difficult life taking care of her mother and then some other elderly woman. It was expected of daughter's in thsoe days. If EBD did indeed identify with Grizel and her situation, it makes it even more poignant that she grants her a happy ending in Chalet School land.
Author:  Tor [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Thanks JB - you are my own personal fountain of knowledge it seems!

Well, I am going t run with my unsubstantiated theory, and imagine that EBD had her move to live with the Matthewman's on the cards, and saw that as some kind of deliverance into an adopted family of her own. This may have then freed her up to write Grizel's happy ending!
Author:  JS [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Nightwing wrote:

Quote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:But I don't ever remember Grizel running after Joey like this when they were both at school. If anything, they had quite different circles from School At on, and in Camp, Joey seems to deliberately needle Grizel by calling her 'my child' in public, which I wouldn't have thought would endear Joey to her.

Isn't it Grizel who calls Joey 'child'?


They each called the other 'child' a few paragraphs apart - but funnily enough, it was Grizel who was criticised for it by the teachers, when actually it was much more of a cheek for the younger schoolgirl to use it to Grizel.

Maybe someone can help me out here - I seem to remember a bit in one of the books where the heads (?) are talking about Grizel and her unhappiness and how Madge always liked to have her at the school where there was a friendly eye kept on her. Maybe, actually, the heads would have liked to have sacked a teacher who, although getting good results, made her pupils miserable? I wonder how many she put off music for life.
Author:  JB [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Tor wrote:

Quote:
Thanks JB - you are my own personal fountain of knowledge it seems!


Thanks. I reread BTCS recently, so i've known where to look for things. It'll pass!

JS wrote:

Quote:
Maybe someone can help me out here - I seem to remember a bit in one of the books where the heads (?) are talking about Grizel and her unhappiness and how Madge always liked to have her at the school where there was a friendly eye kept on her.


I can't help out with where it is but it's familiar to me too.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JB wrote:
JS wrote:

Quote:
Maybe someone can help me out here - I seem to remember a bit in one of the books where the heads (?) are talking about Grizel and her unhappiness and how Madge always liked to have her at the school where there was a friendly eye kept on her.


I can't help out with where it is but it's familiar to me too.


Was it ever cut from the pbs? I don't recognise it, but it sounds like the sort of thing they might say. I don't think they would have sacked her - after all they keep on Plato and Herr Laubach! - it seems a bit extreme when she's just terribly sarcastic.
Author:  JB [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think the reference is more positive - about how much Madge values the school's influence on Grizel. IIRC, it isn't in the context of anything important, more of a passing comment.
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JS wrote:
Nightwing wrote:
Maybe someone can help me out here - I seem to remember a bit in one of the books where the heads (?) are talking about Grizel and her unhappiness and how Madge always liked to have her at the school where there was a friendly eye kept on her. Maybe, actually, the heads would have liked to have sacked a teacher who, although getting good results, made her pupils miserable? I wonder how many she put off music for life.


It's said in Gay of the Chalet School when Grizel threatens to resign after Miss Bubb interfere's with Grizel allowing Gay to teach Jacynth the cello in one of the music rooms. Nell Wilson says it to Matey after Grizel complains to them and says she'll resign and then goes on to say (to Matey) neither Madge nor Hilda would accept her resignation as both liked to keep an eye on Grizel and as she doesn't have any home as Mr Cochrane is dead. It starts on p150 of the GGBp edition and I'm sure part of the conversation is in the armada copy.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I haven't a copy of Gay, but I seem to remember that someone goes on to say that the reason that Madge would keep her is that Grizel has done some wild things in the past. I always found that rather patronising of Madge, as G is a grown woman and if she wants to go to the Falls of Rhine or up the Tiernjoch she could! (the fact that the war is raging in Europe might be a major handicap.) What wild things?
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Mel wrote:
I haven't a copy of Gay, but I seem to remember that someone goes on to say that the reason that Madge would keep her is that Grizel has done some wild things in the past. I always found that rather patronising of Madge, as G is a grown woman and if she wants to go to the Falls of Rhine or up the Tiernjoch she could! (the fact that the war is raging in Europe might be a major handicap.) What wild things?


Even if it is, as it clearly is, intended as a sign of love and care (the CS is not just your employer, it is a family that cares about your wellbeing), it may have, in practice, made things rather more complicated for Grizel. It must have made her feel guilty about hating what she does for a living, because she's doing it at a school with which she has a quasi-familial relationship, and still wants out.

This also seems to suggest (or does to me!) that Grizel has tried to resign before, but been talked out of it, with every good intention, by Madge or someone, and I think that may have been the reverse of psychologically helpful for Grizel. After all, she's only teaching music because her father won't allow her to train as a games mistress - wouldn't it only add to her feeling of powerlessness if another (albeit beloved) authority figure also refused to treat her as an independent adult? You'd feel awfully infantilised, even if you were also touched by the fact they cared! And of course you'd feel bad resenting it.

Isn't it significant, too, that, as well as Miss Annersley buying Grizel into the NZ business, it's also a kind of CS blessing, finally allowing her to leave? (You do find yourself wondering why, given that there is clearly this genuine more-than-just-work relationship, some CS authority figure with spare cash didn't help out earlier by sending her to PE training college, though...? Obviously, you wouldn't expect it in an ordinary employer-employee relationship, but we keep being told this isn't, and that the authorities know why Grizel is miserable, and finally EBD does show that Hilda, at least, is admirably prepared to put her hand in her pocket. I wonder if she did so with or without Madge's say-so, though?)

I assume EBD wanted to keep Grizel at the CS, but felt she needed an explanation for why someone who was evidently unhappy stayed on there, so wrote in this kindly but a bit patronising thing about the CS authorities actively trying to keep her there. I do wonder about the 'mad things' too, though. She'd probably have been good in the SOE during the war, I always think...
Author:  JayB [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
You do find yourself wondering why, given that there is clearly this genuine more-than-just-work relationship, some CS authority figure with spare cash didn't help out earlier by sending her to PE training college, though...?

They couldn't have done it until Grizel was 21, and even then probably would have considered it inappropriate as long as Mr Cochrane was alive, as he objected so strongly.

I wonder if the gap in the middle of Exile is the time when Grizel wanted to strike out on her own and was dissuaded? In that period many of the other mistresses go off and get other jobs or take extra qualifications, but Grizel is just hanging round on Guernsey acting as governess to the Bettany/Russell crowd.

She'd probably have been a lot better off taking a job in a big day school in a town in England. There'd have been lots of other mistresses for companionship, who didn't know her as a schoolgirl and had no preconceived ideas about her, and a choice of clubs and activities for her to join in away from school - Guides, sports clubs, folk dance clubs, cycling, rambling, you name it.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JayB wrote:
They couldn't have done it until Grizel was 21, and even then probably would have considered it inappropriate as long as Mr Cochrane was alive, as he objected so strongly.


I always forget Grizel hasn't actually done a degree between leaving school and returning to teach at the Annexe - I tend to think she must be 21 or near it when she comes back, whereas she isn't, is she?

But in a way, it's part of the same problem, isn't it? An ordinary employer would be dealing with Grizel as an independent adult employee, rather than worrying about what her father would think, as the CS has to, because of Madge's (kind of) neighbourly relationship with the Cochranes.

Although, that brings up a good point - if Grizel is still under 21 and a minor when she returns to teach at the Annexe, what implications does that have for her as an employee? I mean, the majority of British people at that time would have started to work while still minors, but did that have any consequences for their working lives, contracts etc? And would UK law about majority etc have constrained the CS in Tyrol anyway?
Author:  MJKB [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Was it pure bloody mindedness on the part of Mr C not to allow Grizel train as a gym teacher? She still ended up as a teacher so would it have made that much difference what she taught?
Regarding her qualifications, how long did she study music for and would she have had any teaching qualifications?
Discussing Grizel's financial dependence on her father and evil step ma makes one aware of how lucky women in the West are today. We still have quite a way to go, but alot has been achieved in a relatively short period of time.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think she studied music in Florence for a year, and like many of the staff had no teaching qualifications. She should have used the opportunity in Gay to leave, join one of the Women's Services and lead a different life. She would have been good at code-breaking with her Maths/Music mind.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I suspect that Mr C had rather old-fashioned views and thought that music was more suitable for a young lady than sports/games.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
I suspect that Mr C had rather old-fashioned views and thought that music was more suitable for a young lady than sports/games.


That sounds right. I think it's easy to forget how 'modern' it was in the early CS days to insist that girls needed and could benefit from exercise, like boys, including team sports. If Mr Cochrane was the kind of leftover Victorian tyrant he sounds like, he's quite likely to have thought of games mistresses as a sign of the end of civilisation as he knew it...
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Regarding Grizel being under 21, under UK law you usually have to be of age in order to enter into a contract (you can enter into one when you're younger, but you can then claim that it wasn't valid because of your age so it's unlikely that the other party would agree to it), but there are ways round it - I think the way it works with employment is that because a contract of employment is beneficial/necessary to your well-being (supposedly!!) then it can't be argued that it's invalid. Hope that makes sense!!

However, in the 1930s few people had written contracts of employment anyway, and wages for people under the age of majority are always just paid to the individual (Presumably the staff were paid in cash? Never really thought about it before, but most people would have been paid in cash then.)

I'm not sure what the implications of someone under age having a live-in job are, but I know that if you go to university when you're under 18 now then the university doesn't assume any sort of legal responsibility for you and I assume that the same is (and was) true of employers.

I do wonder when the girls stopped being classed as young girls needing to be looked after and started to be classed as women old enough to look after themselves. In Head Girl, we're told that people were shocked to see Grizel, then aged 17, travelling alone. However, presumably it was OK for Madge, Miss Maynard or Mlle de Lachennais, all of whom were only in their early 20s in the early days, to travel to and from the school/elsewhere on their own, and for Juliet to travel to and from university alone. (The one that shocks me is Juliet being allowed to travel to Ireland with Donal and without a chaperone, at the end of And Jo :lol: .) Or maybe that was just supposed to be a Continental thing, seeing as no-one had a problem with people like Tom and Rosalie getting the train to Armiford on their own when they were only 12 or so. Sorry, totally OT :oops: !
Author:  Tor [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
According to Bluestockings, physical exercise was seen as necessary in a female academic environment to suppress unhealthy passions amongst other things. There is a great picture of 19th century girls at a North London school dangling off ropes in their crinolines! Music mistress may have sounded much more like a genteel hobby, in line with early 19th century ideals of womanhood, than a PT mistress which was very much a 'modern' invention...?
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I read a review of Bluestockings which included a quotation about how some female teacher of young women - it might have been the founder of a women's college, Oxbridge or elsewhere? - encouraged her students to keep something meaty, like a sandwich or a soup made of meat stock, beside their bed at night, to hold off night-time melancholy.

Despite being vegetarian, I loved that as an idea, being definitely prone to the 4 am blues myself, and imagine if it had been one of Miss Bubb's innovations to improve academic functioning in the CS! Imagine Matey's horror at what she would view as authorised midnight feasts, and meat products in the dainty cubicles! :D

I also like the idea of games mistresses being necessary to prevent the passions of the girls from frothing over! It's certainly true EBD strongly stresses the absolute necessity for exercise at the CS, and the ructions that invariably occur when for some reason it doesn't happen...
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

I also like the idea of games mistresses being necessary to prevent the passions of the girls from frothing over! It's certainly true EBD strongly stresses the absolute necessity for exercise at the CS, and the ructions that invariably occur when for some reason it doesn't happen...


Well, what with that and the insistence on taking cold baths ...

They do all seem to get a bit hysterical when they're kept indoors due to bad weather, don't they?

Maybe Matey put bromide in her famous "doses" ...
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Perhaps this thread has inadvertently come round to the matter of what Jem whispers to Joey in Exile that makes her look startled. Now that she's left school and no longe has compulsory games and cold baths, perhaps he's worried her passions are about to froth over, especially now that she has a ring on her finger. :shock: :D

Actually, coming back to Grizel, I could easily imagine a modern version of her becoming an exercise junkie - dissatisfied with her life, vaguely unhappy, and that translating into being obsessive about gym sessions, or getting her marathon times down.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
They do all seem to get a bit hysterical when they're kept indoors due to bad weather, don't they?


Yes, but I sympathise with them! I know that if I don't go out for a day or so I end up climbing the walls....
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I can certainly see Mr Cochrane having some antiquated notion about girls not being appropriate for sports, despite this being very much against the CS ethos. Though with all the teachers who never have time for more than brisk walk and end up leaping on available doctors, it seems to have actually worked wonders... :shock:
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I can certainly see Mr Cochrane having some antiquated notion about girls not being appropriate for sports, despite this being very much against the CS ethos. Though with all the teachers who never have time for more than brisk walk and end up leaping on available doctors, it seems to have actually worked wonders... :shock:


I'm working on a conspiracy theory that this is behind the reason the CS seems permanently understaffed for games in the later books, so that half the staff and most of the prefects have to drafted in to help out with coaching and supervision. It's a cunning scheme that keeps their passions dampened enough to prevent them from leaping on passing doctors.

Clearly Len should have been made Games Prefect... :lol:
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Clearly Len should have been made Games Prefect... :lol:


Aah, but you see that was a counter-conspiracy by Joey to make sure that she always had one of her children nearby.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
It goes wrong when young men see the Games Prefect wandering around in not very much but a top and a pair of shorts, but seeing as Marie bagged the local lord of the manor that way I don't suppose she was complaining too much :lol: .
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
It goes wrong when young men see the Games Prefect wandering around in not very much but a top and a pair of shorts, but seeing as Marie bagged the local lord of the manor that way I don't suppose she was complaining too much :lol: .


I always wondered if that was the reason EBD described the boating kit for the CS-Saints boat race in os much detail - that she was making it plain that despite the fact the race is pretty athletic, the outfit was a modest, ladylike affair, loose and not showing a lot of leg?

Otherwise not only do the CS girls get to look sweaty, unladylike and shockingly undredressed in public, butit might be assumed that Marie first encountered the Baron dressed in unsuitably little and attracted his roving eye for the wrong reasons.... :wink:
Author:  MJKB [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Returning to the subject of Mr. C and Grizel's music, I wonder if he was disappointed that Grizel didn't reach concert standard and got stuck in teaching. Maybe he thought that playing music in public, even classical music, was unladylike.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I would imagine that she was expected to return home and play for Church Socials or for Evenings Of Music arranged by Mrs C.
Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
That's an interesting idea, Mel, and I wonder if he did intend for something like that to happen. If so it backfired on him horribly- not only was Grizel not at home doing the "worthy" music round, she spent most of her adult life while he was still alive half-way across Europe at the school he had sent her to in order to get her out of the house... I wonder if he did ever regret that. However little he seemed to care about her as a father, surely sometimes he must have regretted his only child settling so far away, especially when as a result she ends up caught up in the Anschluss and all the rest of it. I also wonder how much of what happens is his decision, and how much is that of Grizel's stepmother.


ChubbyMonkey wrote:
(I may just call you Sarah, mayn't I?)


Of course you may! No need to ask. :D
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Sarah_G-G wrote:
I wonder if he did ever regret that. However little he seemed to care about her as a father, surely sometimes he must have regretted his only child settling so far away, especially when as a result she ends up caught up in the Anschluss and all the rest of it. I also wonder how much of what happens is his decision, and how much is that of Grizel's stepmother.


Doesn't it say in 'School At' that he'd bought her a Kodak because he still loved her even if he never showed it? I think he cared really... he just cared more about himself.

Sarah_G-G wrote:
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
(I may just call you Sarah, mayn't I?)


Of course you may! No need to ask. :D


Thankyou!
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Mel wrote:
I would imagine that she was expected to return home and play for Church Socials or for Evenings Of Music arranged by Mrs C.


But surely Mrs C. wouldn't want her back at home on any longerm basis, whatever she did...? Even Rosalie Dene, who is on much better terms with her stepmother, seems to think that relative friendliness is dependent on her not living 'at home', and Mrs Cochrane has always behaved badly towards Grizel.

I've always thought that thing she says to Eustacia's aunt, about 'goodness knows, Grizel was always a nuisance but not as bad as that' is both very cruel and revealing in an offhanded way, but also an extraordinary hard thing to say to a casual acquaintance. You'd expect someone like her to want to keep up a front of not hating her stepchild in front of the neighbours, wouldn't you?

Yes, I wonder, too, about what Grizel's father thought of the situation... The kind of man who would just produce a child he hadn't mentioned until after he had remarried, or who would consistently refuse to allow his daughter to follow the career she wants doesn't sound like someone who would be over-ruled by his wife, so maybe we need to think he's as uncaring as she is...?
Author:  Lesley [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think he's more likely to be the kind of man that just wanted a quiet life - I find it quite possible for him to basically leave everything to do with his child to his wife because that is 'women's business'. I think the camera as a present was guilt, no more.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think the Cochranes were both very much into appearances, so Grizel would be expected to go home, therefore when Madge offered a job, however slight, it would be relief all round.
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Sarah_G-G wrote:
surely sometimes he must have regretted his only child settling so far away, especially when as a result she ends up caught up in the Anschluss and all the rest of it. I

I thought Mrs.C had two boys of her own with Mr.C. Maybe I'm mixing her up with someone else.
Re Grizel remaining at the CS, I'd say there was a certain amount of ambivalence around that. Mrs.C always struck me as the controlling type who would have got some sort of perverse pleasure out of having an adult daughter living under her roof, completely under her control.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
It was Rosalie's dad who had two sons with his second wife. Mrs Cochrane the 2nd never had any children ... I wonder if perhaps that might be partly why she resented Grizel, although it sounds as if she wasn't keen on having a stepdaughter around right from the start.

I'd definitely think that Mr C was someone who thought that children, especially daughters, were the responsibility of women. However, he could have employed a nanny, or asked his mother to come to live with him (she might not have agreed, but it sounds as if he didn't even ask her) when his first wife died, but instead we're told that he just dumped Grizel at his mother's and led a "bachelor life" (or words to that effect) until he remarried.
Author:  Carrie A [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H said:
Quote:
However, he could have employed a nanny, or asked his mother to come to live with him (she might not have agreed, but it sounds as if he didn't even ask her) when his first wife died, but instead we're told that he just dumped Grizel at his mother's and led a "bachelor life" (or words to that effect) until he remarried.
[/quote]
Have just caught up with this thread and now have a picture of Mr C living it up at his club and carousing till the early hours with unsuitable companions - especially women!

Back to Grizel though - I think we forget just how restricted women were between the wars - and even after WW2. My mum used to tell me a story of when she was about 17 (this would have been in the mid 1950's) and was going off with the church group on a good friday ramble. The minister sent her home to change because she had had the audacity to turn up in trousers (or slacks as Hilda would call them!). As a 15 yr old I thought this was hilarious and wanted to know why she hadn't told him to mind his own business. But of course she didn't and meekly went home to change! But even in the 1970's when I started work, trousers were not considered quite suitable for an office girl to wear!
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I caused terrific scandal in a country parish for going to Mass bare legged and sleeveless. It was the early 70's and I was a young teenager and sadly under developed.
.
Up to about 1970 a man could sell the family home over his wife's head and she could do nothing about it. It happened to my aunt. The family lived in a really nice part of Dublin in a house she loved. My uncle sold the house without consulting her and brought her to live in an old,damp, draughty farm house in the middle of nowhere. My mother advised her to leave him and get a job to support herself, a move which would have cause enormous waves at the time (mid 60's), but she 'did her duty' and pined away for the rest of her years, dreaming about getting back to the city. I really don't think young women nowadays realise how far we have come in such a relatively short time.
Author:  Tor [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
My Great Aunty in Rosslare (when we visit her) still has several fits if my Mum goes to mass with a skirt on her knees - and she has a rather cutting way with words!!

Mum usually remembers to cover up.

[she doesn't actually say anything about the fact that I don;'t go, but her very eyes do quite enough talking!!!)
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
When my sisters and I use to go for our annual summer holiday to Cavan, we had an enviable amount of freedom. We could go off in the morning on foot or on bikes and stay out until all hours. The aunt and uncle with whom we stayed, had an auctioneering business in the town and so were on good terms with all the town shopkeepers. If you felt like a packet of crisp at 12o'clock at night you could knock at most of the pubs or shops and they'd serve you. Manys the time my aunt, who had a penchant for fruit drops called Gems, would send us over the road for a packet and we'd be received with the utmost politeness as late as one o'clock in the morning - honestly. There were no rules whatsoever about anything, apart, that is, from being up early on a sunday morning, suited and booted properly for sunday Mass. It didn't enter anyone's head, young or old, to miss it.
Author:  Millie [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal, maybe saying something like that was more socially acceptable in the 1920s than it would be now. Afterall, women of that class in that era would have had plenty of hired help to raise their children and also often have sent them away to school at an early age, so maybe it was more acceptable to suggest that one didn't really enjoy looking after children and that it was easier when they were out of the way?
MJKB, I think you are probably right to suggest that Mrs Cochrane may have enjoyed having Grizel home in some way. The impression I got from the books is that, even though Mrs C didn't love, or even like, Grizel, she spent quite alot of time on her (being horrible to her); and to me that suggests a bullying personality, rather than someone who was merely indifferent and couldn't be bothered with a child around the house.
Author:  MJKB [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
The dynamic between Grizel and her parent and step-parent is very interesting and could have been culled from a manual on child pyschology. Grizel's passive aggressive behaviour at home is the result of years of controlling parenting. My belief is that Mrs. Cochrane derived a perverse pleasure out of twarting her husband's only child.
Author:  Mel [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I agree, and think that Mrs C was venting her subconscious anger against her husband onto Grizel. After all, he didn't tell her about G's existence, wouldn't send her away to school (for the first four years?) and left the child care to Mrs C.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Millie wrote:
maybe saying something like that was more socially acceptable in the 1920s than it would be now. Afterall, women of that class in that era would have had plenty of hired help to raise their children and also often have sent them away to school at an early age, so maybe it was more acceptable to suggest that one didn't really enjoy looking after children and that it was easier when they were out of the way?


I see what you mean, I think - we would think that affluent parents who left their child with relatives for years because they choose to work somewhere with an unsuitable climate were perhaps a bit unloving, but it's entirely normal in CS-land. So sending your stepchild to a foreign boarding school doesn't suggest in itself that Mrs Cochrane is a bad stepmother. But the thing she actually says to Eustacia's aunt (about Grizel 'always being a nuisance') and the implicit comparison with Eustacia, who's a total stranger who's just been foisted on an aunt she's never met - is really harsh. And I'd agree that it seems an extraordinary thing to say to a neighbour. I could imagine Mrs Cochrane telling her husband in a fit of rage that she'd always hated his daughter, but I have more difficulty with her showing her dislike to the neighbours, if that makes sense. It can only make her look bad in public.
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Slightly on a tangent - but I wonder if Mrs Cochrane's resentment towards Grizel had anything to do with the fact that she didn't have any children herself? I mean, if she had wanted children and hadn't been able to, the fact that she had also been saddled with someone else's child (who she hadn't known about in the first place) would probably have only made things worse.

It still doesn't excuse her behaviour, of course, but I think it could account to her continual spitefulness towards her, which continues until Grizel is a grown woman who has long since left home.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Expounding on Nightwing's theory a little bit, but from what we know of Mr Cochrane he doesn't sound like loving father material, so perhaps he didn't want more children, which would add yet another layer of resentment to Mrs Cochrane's bitterness.
Author:  andydaly [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I am not trying to defend Mrs C.'s behaviour towards Grizel, but as someone who doesn't want children, if I had walked into my new home, fresh off my honeymoon, to find my husband's daughter whose existence had been kept from me, I think the marriage would have been a disaster from then on. If Mrs Cochrane didn't want children either, I can imagine how bitter and resentful she must feel. I think she quite consciously, though unreasonably, blames Grizel for spoiling her marriage. Again, it doesn't excuse her for taking out her resentment on a child who wasn't to blame for the situation.

To return to the opening topic, I do think Grizel is suffering from depression; and even if EBD didn't consciously intend to portray it, she has done so wonderfully well. Grizel shows many of the symptoms that I've read about - irritability, anger, self-isolation, pessimism, a pervading sense of hopelessness (which explains why Grizel doesn't make any attempt to achieve ambitions that are within her reach). The only thing is, we are not shown any physical symptoms, but I suppose we wouldn't expect to be really, in a children's book.

Combined with that, though, I think Grizel is also simply lonely and unhappy.
Author:  JB [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Andydaly wrote:

Quote:
I am not trying to defend Mrs C.'s behaviour towards Grizel, but as someone who doesn't want children, if I had walked into my new home, fresh off my honeymoon, to find my husband's daughter whose existence had been kept from me, I think the marriage would have been a disaster from then on.


I completely agree. I don't see how your trust in someone could recover from that. Either way, whether Mrs C had never wanted children or whether she wanted them but couldn't, it's a disastrous situation.

I also agree with Sunglass about Mrs C's comment to Eustacia's aunt. I would have thought appearances were very important to Mrs C, unless she's trying to paint herself as the long-suffering step-parent who's doing her best with a very difficult child.
Author:  andydaly [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JB wrote:
unless she's trying to paint herself as the long-suffering step-parent who's doing her best with a very difficult child.


I definitely got that impression!

ETA - I also think there's every possibility that she sees herself in that light!
Author:  Jennie [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
What really appalled me about that conversation was the utter lack of sympathy shown to either child.

Was Grizel even told in advance of her father's plan to remarry? Was she told, in the way that people treated children then, 'You're going to have a new mummy'?

And as for her aunt's treatment of Eustacia, words fail me. The child has lost her mother and father in quick succession, been dragged off to relatives she barely knew, with five sons who ought to have been told to treat her kindly, no tricks, no physical pranks, and then told she is a disruptive element in the house. What did they expect of a girl who had probably never even met a boy before, not as an equal, and then she is sent, not to a fairly nearby boarding school , but to the CS. A long journey across Europe in the depths of winter followed by an unenthusiastic, even callous reception from Jo Bettany, then plunged into a very enclosed life with a bunch of girls who haven't even been told about her background and circumstances, and she is expected to fit in immediately.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I felt very sorry for Eustacia. She must have felt that her aunt and uncle saw her as an unwelcome intrusion into their own family life and'd just packed her off as far out of the way as possible. I wasn't very impressed with Miss Wilson's reaction to her running away, either: poor Eustacia'd lost both her parents and her home, been sent away to a school she didn't like and been shunned by her classmates, and Miss Wilson made out that the only reason she was upset was that Jo didn't want to be friends with her! She even had a go at poor Jo about it (supposedly) being her fault that Eustacia'd run away!

It almost makes me wish Mary-Lou had been there ... whatever her faults, she did try to help Jessica Wayne when she saw that Jessica was unhappy. So did Len and Con with Odette Mercier, to some extent. I know that the staff took the view that they shouldn't interfere in individual friendships, but surely they could have tried to do more to help people who were obviously unhappy.
Author:  JS [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
andydaly wrote:
Quote:
JB wrote:unless she's trying to paint herself as the long-suffering step-parent who's doing her best with a very difficult child.

I definitely got that impression!

ETA - I also think there's every possibility that she sees herself in that light!



That's a really interesting idea, andydaly. We only 'see' Mrs Cochrane from the point of view of those who don't like/approve of her. Maybe if we saw it from someone sympathetic towards her, we'd get a different story.
Author:  andydaly [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
JS wrote:
We only 'see' Mrs Cochrane from the point of view of those who don't like/approve of her. Maybe if we saw it from someone sympathetic towards her, we'd get a different story.


Drabble, anyone?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
But then Eustacia does bring a lot of her problems on herself - her refusal to try and fit in, to try and get over her grief or at least explain to people why she isn't ready for a change yet, alienates her from anyone who might have been able to help.
Author:  Cel [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
But then Eustacia does bring a lot of her problems on herself - her refusal to try and fit in, to try and get over her grief or at least explain to people why she isn't ready for a change yet, alienates her from anyone who might have been able to help.


That's probably a lot to expect from a young girl who's never really been around other people, though. Even if she was a normally sociable teenager and very keen to fit in, I'd imagine it would be hard to open up to a bunch of strangers who certainly aren't openly sympathetic. And Eustacia isn't your averagely sociable type - she's a prickly personality and awkward around people her own age. I really feel for her.
Author:  Abi [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I really think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Eustacia had after all just lost her parents and she was only a child and one who obviously hadn't been taught to articulate her feelings. Not to mention her totally bizarre upbringing.

On the other hand, she doesn't exactly go the best way about making herself attractive - she is arrogant and patronising and acts as though she thinks she's better than everyone else. Realistically, I don't think girls of her own age could be expected to understand how she was feeling. Even Joey is actually still pretty young to have the self-control to be able to overlook Eustacia's behaviour. But I do agree that she staff ought to have understood how she was feeling and done something about it.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Perhaps they should, but I'm not sure what they could have done, really. Unless someone had definetely done something wrong - either Eustacia, or somneone behaving badly towards her - I don't see that they could have approached either party. Telling E not to be so frigid would have set her back right up - as tactfully as it was phrased, I know I'm not being very tactful there! - and approaching the other side would probably have just made them dislike E even more for getting them into trouble.
Author:  Abi [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I agree that speaking to Eustacia probably wouldn't have helped. But I do think that if Miss Wilson or someone had spoken to Joey - explained how Eustacia was probably feeling and maybe specifically asked for her help, she would probably have done her best. She was impulsive and obviously didn't like Eustacia but she was also very kind and generous and I think if she'd understood she would have wanted to help.
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Alison H wrote:
Miss Wilson made out that the only reason she was upset was that Jo didn't want to be friends with her! She even had a go at poor Jo about it (supposedly) being her fault that Eustacia'd run away!


I'm always in two minds about this. On the one hand, it is probably about time that someone pointed out to Jo that she was a natural leader and that the younger girls (and older girls) would always look up to her so she needed to act accordingly. On the other hand, telling her that Eustacia's unhappiness was her responsibility was completely ridiculous! No wonder Joey encourages OOAO to help others from a fairly young age - she probably thought that that was how things were meant to be, after that enormous guilt trip!

Abi wrote:
She was impulsive and obviously didn't like Eustacia but she was also very kind and generous and I think if she'd understood she would have wanted to help.


I agree - Joey disliked Juliet at first, but after Madge told her everything that had happened she was quick to forgive her her faults. And when Gillian appealed to her for help with Joyce she gave it. And, returning to the topic at hand, you could hardly say Joey and Grizel's relationship wasn't rocky, but knowing Grizel's history Joey was always prepared to go the extra mile for her.
Author:  Lesley [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I did write about Eustacia's situation in my rabble Senior Mistress (shameless self-promotion :wink: ) - whatever EBD's intentions - and I think the reader is expected to cast Eustacia as the one and only one a fault - it actually shows no-one to be in a particularly good light (I include Hilda Annersley)

Joey shows none of the insight for which she is famed and, unlike the rest of the school girls, she did know of Eustacia's history. The Staff sit back and allow everything to happen and, in the case of Con Stewart, actually make things worse, and Eustacia herself is her own worst enemy.

I don't think Miss Wilson's comments to Jo were trying to say the whole situation was just caused by Eustacia liking Joey and not having it reciprocated - more trying to get Joey to see that she has the gift to enspire friendship but that it comes with responsibilities.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I still laugh sometimes at Joey's famed insight, she never strikes me as being particularly insightful when she's younger - not in the same way as, say, OOAO. I suppose she'd have picked it up a little from her writing, but not enough to deal with every new girl ever (though I suppose that their situations aren't really that varied).
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think what puzzles me slightly about Eustacia's reception at the CS is that it wouldn't appear to me to take much insight to grasp that both her parents have just died within a short period, and she's alone in the world, bar an aunt she's never met before - so of course she's not going to be the stablest, most adaptable, happiest new girl. The staff do know about her parents, presumably, and I think Joey knows, doesn't she?

But the odd thing is that, rather than being presented as a recently-bereaved, unhappy new girl, Eustacia's presented entirely in terms of being eccentric and disdainful - even by EBD! It's as though EBD forgot herself that she's given Eustacia a very unhappy recent backstory after she's got her to the school, which would acount for some of her bad behaviour in the eyes of anyone genuinely insightful, which we're told the CS staff is.

Then I sometimes wonder if EBD is suggesting Eustacia isn't really grieving for her parents? She certainly doesn't explicitly say she is, and there's that reference to her mother's death, when we're told Eustacia 'mourned properly' - I've never quite figured whether EBD means 'properly' in the sense that Eustacis really, thoroughly mourned, or in the sense of 'prim and proper'. Which seems like a rather cruel thing to say - it's as though the fact that she's an 'arrant little prig' means she isn't allowed to be sad her mother's dead...?
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
On my last reread of the series, I skipped most of Eustacia as I find it quite difficult to read now. I know she's difficult but she's had a very unusual life so far and is still grieving for her parents. I do feel very sorry for her and the treatment she receives at the school. As Lesley said, no-one comes out of it very well.

I can't see a similar situation happening in one of the Swiss books. Someone would would have written to Joey to explain the situation or Miss Annersley would have been told (eg Tessa Wynne in the staff meeting in New Mistress). The new girl would have been given a sheepdog and probably OOAML would have helped out. I wonder if EBD's attitudes changed?

Ariel - I agree with you about Joey's "insight". I'm not criticising the way she helps new girls but she does help girls with fairly obvious problems (been expelled from other schools and uncaring mother, jealous of stepsister, etc). I can't think of an example where she really has to use insight to work out what the problem is.
Author:  Lottie [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Is Joey's "insight" merely supposed to be that, because she has the fertile imagination of a writer, she's better than anybody else at imagining what it's like to cope with whatever unlikely back-story the latest new girl has been given by EBD? After all, she's usually been told what the potential problems are before the girl arrives at the School.
Author:  Mel [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I think the whole thing is very badly handled. If Eustacia hadn't the humanity to feel the loss of her parents, she would be grieving for her previous life-style. I don't think for a moment that she yearned for Jo's friendship. I think they should have set Mary Burnett onto her who was at that time a 'born student' and scholarship was the thing that E found most interesting at that time. Or given her some time to be alone. The hordes of girls clearly made her uncomfortable.
Author:  cestina [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Lesley wrote:
I did write about Eustacia's situation in my rabble Senior Mistress (shameless self-promotion :wink: )

A bit off-topic but I don't think you should regard this as shameless self-promotion, rather as a helpful hint to those of us coming new to the site and still full of awe and bewilderment at the amount of resources available. Lovely to know that there is a drabble around on a particular subject. I was thinking of writing to suggest that all mentions of any former drabble should come complete with a handy link :)
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Mel wrote:
I I think they should have set Mary Burnett onto her who was at that time a 'born student' and scholarship was the thing that E found most interesting at that time.


You see, now that's an insightful idea. I mean, it would probably have ended in tears, as Mary was no classicist, and Eustacia seems to be only a classicist, but it would be a start! I agree that the 'she secretly yearns for Joey's friendship' is a total red herring. Joey is clearly completely taken aback by it (and what an unhelpful thing to be told by a teacher - 'everyone wants to be your friend, therefore you are powerful, use the power for good!'), and there's no real evidence at all, other than a few isolated moments where Eustacia admires Joey for keeping her temper.

In fairness to Joey, the Popularity as Power thing clearly never occurred to her before, but being told that by an authority figure would risk either making you self-conscious and shy about making friends, or potentially big-headed.

The whole Eustacia thing is very odd, and as others have said, would have been greeted with more understanding in the Swiss days. It really does read as though EBD forgot about Eustacia's bereavement, so all her characters forgot about it too and treat her like annoying, pedantic, snotty new girl with no allowances being made for her parents' deaths. I like the book, but the Eustacia plot would work better for me if the bereavement thing was taken out, and Eustacia had just been sent to school while her parents had to go abroad for work - that way, she could have been just as annoying and intellectually snobbish, but the mass ignoring of her being newly orphaned would feel less like a big gap.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Were the school ever told about her parents' death?
Author:  trig [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I've always seen the Eustacia issue like Lesley - EBD wants to portray E as being in the wrong when it is equally (or in my view more) the other girls' and even the staff's faults. Although Con Stewart is one of my favourite portrayals as a realistic mistress as she is not always perfect or understanding - teachers are people too!

Joey at this point in the series is at her least attractive - patronising about younger girls, and arrogant about the qualities of the CS (following on from Rivals). But EBD is still subjective (or is that objective - I can never remember :oops: ) enough to show that Jo herself is somewhat at fault - this would never have happened by the Swiss books.

In a way E's relationship with Jo is one of the more realistic ones that involve Jo, together with Jo and Grizel. They are each allowed to have their merits and neither is seen to be "better" than the other. EBD tries hard with Marie, Frieda and Simone but they are none of them as strong characters as Jo and seem to diminish because of it. Sorry for thesis!
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I can't find a direct quote but i'm sure it would have been in her aunt's letter to Mlle. She does explain about who Eustacia is and why she's sending her.

Mlle and Madge know Mrs Trevelyan and that she has lots of sons but no daughters.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Perhaps that is part of the problem - if they knew Mrs Trevelyan, they might take her word at face value, and be prepared from the start for a troublesome girl. This is still in the early days when the CS is on a steep learning curve still.
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
No, Mrs T is fair in her letter. This is part of it:

Quote:
I doubt very much if she would be happy with the average English girl, who would make fun of her little idiosyncrasies, and not see the real good which I am sure lied hidden beneath what, I confess, is at times a very unprepossessing manner.


Madge and Mlle are both sympathetic.

I'm firmly in the camp of staff and pupils not behaving very well towards the poor girl.
Author:  Mel [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Compare with Lavender, another unpleasant child, where Biddy steps in and tells the girls to give her a chance. No sign of Jo doing that.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
But I still don't know that that would have made much difference - Eustacia would resent it, I think, especially if she knew Joey had had to tell them to do it. I would be furious if a member of staff forced everyone to forgive me! It doesn't feel real somehow, it's too forced.
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
It doesn't come across to me as forced in Lavender. Biddy is speaking to class of younger pupils and points out that there behaviour is now close to bullying. When they realise that, they want to stop.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Oh, I agree about Lavender, but I think that it would have been different in Stacie's case - as we see from the time it takes some people to forgive her even after the accident.
Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Also - I was wondering just how old Stacey is when she joins the school? Because there was a big difference in age between Biddy and Lavender's classmates, whereas the prefects in Eustacia are a lot younger - Jo must be only just 17, (or still 16?) at this point. As someone who is very much on her dignity, I could see Eustacia being very offended if she saw them as interfering - while in Lavender Laughs the girls are very much in awe of the prefects.

I'm not saying that the prefects shouldn't at least have tried to do something, but I do think the situation is different. And even if the staff thought it was all Jo's problem, Mary is the one who was HG - she definitely needs to have some of the responsibility lain at her feet, too.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
trig wrote:
In a way E's relationship with Jo is one of the more realistic ones that involve Jo, together with Jo and Grizel. They are each allowed to have their merits and neither is seen to be "better" than the other.


I don't know. I'd agree in the early part of the book, where we're shown Eustacia being insufferable, and Joey sometimes also being tactless, like inviting her into the library when she's been banned from using it etc. But the realistic sense of a relationship which is in part just a personality clash, where both people get one another wrong, for me evaporates after Eustacia's accident.

That scene where Joey goes to visit Stacie after her injury has always struck me as a bit of cop-out, where EBD has lurched into Cousin Helen notions of illness as morally improving. Stacie is, after all, a girl who's been badly injured as a direct result of running away from a hated school, and who's been lying in pain, knowing that recovery is a long way away - she could be forgiven for being resentful towards Joey as the symbol of the school that she might well have blamed for causing her injury, or simply being understandably more bound up with her own trauma etc. than with making friends with Joey.

But she seems to have grown a halo along with her new name and haircut 0 and there's apparently no question anymore that anyone other than her behaved less than perfectly. Which I think is problematic. Not even just of who bears the moral responsibility for a fourteen-year-old girl's near-death, but what drove her to run away in the first place.

I tend to feel slightly like calling a lawyer on her behalf (school, supervision, liability, medical bills etc), but of course if everyone who got injured on CS time, so to speak, did so, the school would have closed down in its first term... :D Plus there is the problem of the fact that she's injured while at the CS, hospitalised at the San run by the CS founder's husband, and then goes to live and be nursed at the home of the CS founder!
Author:  JS [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
I'm not saying that the prefects shouldn't at least have tried to do something, but I do think the situation is different. And even if the staff thought it was all Jo's problem, Mary is the one who was HG - she definitely needs to have some of the responsibility lain at her feet, too.


But the prefects did try to do something about it - somewhat cackhandedly. If I remember rightly, they discussed it and decided to ask her to write something for the Chaletian - shame that Jo then asked her to go to the library and made things even worse....

As an aside, this is, I think, one of the first times that EBD uses language as a signifier of personal change. Stacie begins to talk less stiltedly when she has 'reformed', much like Verity-Anne does towards the end of Three Go.
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
But in the girls favour, there was one moment when relations were friendly amongst the girls and Eustacia and Con Stewert ruined it all by her over the top punishment with the missing pen.

Con Stewert never appealed to me after that and she cemented my dislike of her in Camp when she made it clear that she would favour Joey to the detriment of another girl even if that girl was a new mistress (Grizel). I know someone wondered earlier if Nell or Con ever invited Grizel to call them by their first names and somehow I can't see it happening. Con makes it clear she can't bear her and then drags up the rumour that Grizel nearly didn't become Head Girl. i'm sure if all her old misdeeds were still being discussed even by mistresses who weren't even at the school with Grizel, it must have been hard for Grizel to return and could be why she was at the Annexe with Juliet and Gertrude, rather than the school proper
Author:  Tor [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Eustacia's behaviour and Grizel'a 'depression' are both similar aspects of EBDs writing in my book (note cunning attempt to continue this interesting debate, while officially remaining 'on topic' :lol: ). As other's have said, Grizel's behaviour and 'symptoms' fit very well with our understanding of depression, even if EBD didn't construe it as such. similarly Eustacia's behaviour is very understandable within the context of her recent grief and upheval. However, I am with the others who don't see EBD as having deliberately laid this back story as a way to gian our sympathy for Eustacia.

Instead, EBD (in my opinion) seems to trying to use both these 'redemptive' storylines (over very different timescales) to put forward one of her favourite themes: it is a better (and more important..?) thing to make yourself pleasant to other people, by 'fitting in' and taking pleasure in ones selflessness, rather than 'indulging' oneself in grief, unhappiness and misery. Cousin Helen-esque, indeed.

However, because EBD has a natural, probably subconscious, aptitude for characterisation she manages to create very realistic scenarios that help to explain and contextualize that behaviour, that actually makes books like Eustacia very hard reading as it unwittingly topples the central redemptive message. And equally, it produces a very good description of depression for Grizel, when possibly all EBD was trying to convey was the sense that Grizel would find happiness once she stopped being quite so prickly.

(BTW: does anyone else find it impossible to think of her as Stacie... ? that name change never worked for me, partly because the character 'Stacie' is so limp an insipid compared with Eustacia, perhaps)
Author:  Emma A [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Tor wrote:
(BTW: does anyone else find it impossible to think of her as Stacie... ? that name change never worked for me, partly because the character 'Stacie' is so limp an insipid compared with Eustacia, perhaps)

Not really (writing as someone who is drabbling Stacie in various forms :D ) - she's not so insipid in the books after she returns to school, I think. I suppose she becomes a fairly unremarkable schoolgirl - apart from the tendency to backache exacerbated by Polly Heriot's bell-ringing antics! In later life, when she reappears in Challenge, she's certainly achieved a lot, and is a very competent teacher (though I still think it would have been rather a come-down after Oxford!)

I agree about the characterisation, though, Tor - and the characters of Stacie and Grizel are attractive to us as adults because we can perceive the reasons for the unhappiness and behaviour which EBD either ignores or only hints at. Perhaps as a child I might have completely overlooked the backgrounds and just seen Eustacia's priggishness and appalling comments, or Grizel's unpleasant sarcasm and belittling remarks.
Author:  Tor [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Quote:
In later life, when she reappears in Challenge, she's certainly achieved a lot, and is a very competent teacher (though I still think it would have been rather a come-down after Oxford!)


Yes, she is re-invigourated as an adult character for me. But I still think or her as Dr. Eustacia Benson, rather than Stacie... :?

ETA: does this mean there will be more Stacie at Shrewsbury soon EmmaA? I love that drabble!
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Tor wrote:
(BTW: does anyone else find it impossible to think of her as Stacie... ? that name change never worked for me, partly because the character 'Stacie' is so limp and insipid compared with Eustacia, perhaps)


Yes, I realised I virtually always call her Eustacia when I mention her on the board I think for exactly that reason. I think EBD's writing quite often suffers from the (very interesting) problem that her complex characters are complex precisely because of their flaws, and the things that make them refuse to conform to CS norms. But because, with very few exceptions, her message is one of redemption via conformity to a way of life she sees as unassailably good for everyone, the problem new girls nearly always end up conforming eventually, which means they become unremarkable jolly schoolgirls who don't have anything that particularly marks them out as individuals. So you end up with a situation where Stacie is an ex intellectual snob, Ted/Verity/Annis/Elizabeth Arnott are ex rebels in different ways, Polly Heriot is an ex reenactor of school story pranks etc. (I think this is the problem with Len, too. She's not even an ex anything.)

I've always wished post accident Stacie has retained some semblance of her earlier self, maybe in ignoring Joey's counsel about what kinds of things to select for the Chaletian, and reinventing it as a learned journal with the Games Notes in Latin verse, much to everyone's horror... :)

It's why Grizel is so interesting - her redemption is so delayed that we don't have to deal with a bandly conforming Grizel after she realises the error of her ways on the Tiernjoch...?
Author:  trig [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Cosimo's Jackal wrote

Quote:
It's why Grizel is so interesting - her redemption is so delayed that we don't have to deal with a bandly conforming Grizel after she realises the error of her ways on the Tiernjoch...?


I agree. But it's more an aspect of the earlier books than just Grizel. Juliet does reform pretty wholesale, but Simone is still emotional and jealous, Cornelia still plays pranks and even Joey doesn't learn tact or thoughtfulness (although her faults are generally portrayed as less "bad" than Grizel's, when at times they are worse...) By the Swiss years one incident is enough for a wayward girl to understand the error of not conforming.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
I always say Stacie (well, most of the time, anyway) but this is one of those books that I don't remember reading for a first time. I knew the plotline by heart by about age 8 or 9, so Stacie is one of those characters I tend to just accept at EBD's face value.

I wonder if the later Swiss books' high level of conformity is something to do with the size of the school? (We'll pretend the simple answer isn't just that EBD's writing was going steadily downhill!) In the earlier books, when the school is smaller, it's easier for girls to be a little more individual - for example when Grizel and Amy have an argument over Amy writing poetry. In the later books, there are so many Chalet clones that it must have seemed really difficult to stand out.
Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
In the earlier books, when the school is smaller, it's easier for girls to be a little more individual - for example when Grizel and Amy have an argument over Amy writing poetry. In the later books, there are so many Chalet clones that it must have seemed really difficult to stand out.


I agree - and I also think that the very episodic nature of the later books meant that EBD couldn't really stretch any character arcs over more than one book. There are one or two exceptions - the triplets, for example, particularly Margot, struggle with their faults over and over. But there's a difference between "Margot loses her temper again" and Grizel, who is allowed to have more than one fault, and concurs some but not all of them. It makes her seem a lot more human than a lot of the later characters.
Author:  JB [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adult matters: Grizel's Depression
Chubby Monkey wrote:

Quote:
In the earlier books, when the school is smaller, it's easier for girls to be a little more individual - for example when Grizel and Amy have an argument over Amy writing poetry. In the later books, there are so many Chalet clones that it must have seemed really difficult to stand out.


I think the size of the school is a factor here. When the school was new and small, the pupils of different ages mixed together much more so that Grizel and Amy know each well enough to have this conversation. In the later books, girls would stick with pupils of their own age and wouldn't come across younger girls so much.

And then there's the cloning. Another sideline of the San? :twisted:
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