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Joey's breezy manner
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Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Joey's breezy manner

I was re-reading 'Theodora' recently, and it suddenly struck me just how scary Joey must seem. Ted has just come to a new school, is nervous about them finding out about her past, is trying to cope with all of the new information and find a way to fit in with the other girls. One odd girl comes and tells her she is going to meet "my mother", and the first thing Joey does is ask "Ted or Theo?"

I think I'd probably stare blankly too!

So, how realistic is the way people respond to Joey's breezy manner? Would she really be able to reach all of the girls that she does? And is there ever an instance where you think someone should be offended by her but isn't?

Author:  blue1 [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

I'd be offended most of the time if it was me. There are countless occasions throughout the books where I wish someone would just tell Joey for want of putting a better way "Where to go". I really don't know how the staff managed to restrain themselves at times and as for the new girls, when she starts to ask questions about their families the minute she meets them or she already seems to know about them, I'd be really annnoyed if that was me.

Author:  Pado [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

I don't know ... as a child, I was sure the entire universe revolved around ... er ... well ... me. So I wouldn't have been at all surprised to find some random adult addressing me in that way. In fact, I think it might have been reassuring at some level, having just travelled across Europe to a strange place where everything was weird.

Author:  Maeve [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Also, while Ted doesn't seem to know who Joey is, most of the new girls do know her as one of their favourite authors, Josephine M. Bettany. If when I'd started school, EBD or one of my other favourite authors, came up to me Joey-style, I'd have been willing to overlook all sorts of things that might bother me with someone else :)

I think Dorcas Brownlow is somewhat guarded with her, IIRC, but that's because she wants to hide who her sister is.

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

A lot of people are like that in real life, but if I'd been Ted I'd certainly have been a bit disconcerted.

It borders on rudeness sometimes: I was re-reading some of Joey & Co yesterday, in which Joey tells Ruey - then still a virtual stranger - that her chalet looks like "any-day-but-Christmas-Day-in-the-workhouse"! I appreciate that Joey didn't mean to be offensive, but I'd've been very offended had I been Ruey.

Mary-Lou is told - in New Mistress - by one of her friends that, much as her friends know that she doesn't mean to be rude, it can come across that way to a stranger, and I think maybe someone should have told Joey the same.

Author:  KathrynW [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Whilst I can see that it does sometimes verge on rudeness, I think I probably would have found Joey's manner would work quite well at making me feel at home. She obviously doesn't stand on ceremony (at least not unless she's require to) and treats everyone like they're part of the family which is rather nice in my opinion.

Author:  Josette [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Adult Joey actually reminds me very much of a neighbour we had as a child (she's still my parents' neighbour, come to that). She did "breeze in" regardless, and as I grew up the way she acted annoyed me more and more - but she was, and still is, the best person to have around in a crisis! I think it reflects a "small community" way of life (she moved here when I was about 6) and although it can come over as invasive these days when privacy is at more of a premium, I think the flipside of it is quite comforting - if anything happened to one of my parents, for example, I know she'd be straight round there. Rather like Joey, she is responsible for everyone in our part of town knowing everyone's business - but also for friendships between people who might not even have known each other if it wasn't for her parties, coffee mornings etc.

Author:  Liz K [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Josette's comments above (if my reply comes immediately after hers!) reminds me of when I was still living at home with my parents years ago. On Saturday mornings, if neighbours happened to be passing and saw Dad's car outside, they'd know we were in and they'd come in for a natter - there always seemed to be something going on Saturday mornings and somehow now I miss it.

Author:  JayB [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

I think girls such as Audrey and Evelyn, who are of an age when girls are developing more of a sense of dignity and privacy, are more likely to be offended by Jo's butting in. And I think Mrs Everett and Mrs Ross are certainly entitled to be offended, since Jo told both of their daughters things that they hadn't wanted them to know at that point.

And I think if I'd been in Kathie Ferrars' place, I'd have felt uncomfortable on my first visit to Jo. First, the invitation is presented as something of a royal summons - and I don't think Jo even writes a personal note to Kathie, does she, but has the invitation passed on through a third party. Kathie is really given no option about accepting, even though she might have had other plans for her free time. Then Jo makes a big fuss about Kathie choosing to walk round by the road instead of cutting across the garden. And then lets Bruno leap all over her.

Author:  Sunglass [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

A lot of the time, I find that what EBD considers a charming 'breeziness' is actually entirely unconscious (and, it should be said, well-meaning) rudeness - or at least, a lack of consideration of the potential hurt of confusion of others - on the part of someone who is simply used to being a local celebrity, who is endlessly called in and consulted on matters which are frequently nothing to do with her - and who, as an adult, is not used to being wrong.

It may explain part of the popularity of drabbles which parody Joey's behaviour, because it's very easy to imagine some of her interventions being presented from a different, less positive angle, as a combination of noblesse oblige, insufferable nosiness and a failure to recognise that not everyone wants her company at any hour of the day or night. (I mean, I can easily imagine a very un-EBD account of Hilda getting Gaudenz to put a double lock on the French doors of her study simply because it doesn't seem to occur to Joey that Hilda is a busy professional who might appreciate not having her private space invaded regularly in the middle of a working day...)

Adult Joey is never shown as realising she took the wrong tack with someone, apologising, and then butting out, but one can entirely imagine a situation where an author less devoted to Joey than EBD could have written Joey's 'breezy' criticism of the Richardsons' chalet, or Ruey's appearance, as being resented by Ruey, or Theodora, who, God knows, is a difficult, rebellious, unloved teenager, might reasonably have been furious when a total stranger proposes, before even saying hello, that she change her name! (It's very different to the more warts-and-all portrayal of younger Joey, who realises she screwed up in inviting Eustacia to come and discuss the Chaletian in the library.)

I mean, I can see what EBD is trying to do with adult Joey's breeziness - it's supposed to be disarmingly informal in a way that is probably more understandable if we think about a much more formal, hierarchical, polite post-war world. If we are expecting a certain kind of 'polite' behaviour from someone with the status of Important Doctor's Wife and Author, then presumably Joey's breeziness will come as a (possibly pleasant) shock.

But there's a sort of smug certainty that the Freudesheim way is the Best of all Possible Worlds that I find sticks in my craw - an assumption that any new girl will feel privileged to be knocked over by sixteen stone of untrained dog, be terribly interested in a bunch of small children, and having a heart-to-heart with a complete stranger who isn't good at keeping confidences.

Also, my own working definition of politeness is trying not to make someone else feel uncomfortable by my words or actions, so I find problematic the assumption that Joey being disconcerting is automatically good for the receiver...

Author:  KatS [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Quote:
Also, while Ted doesn't seem to know who Joey is, most of the new girls do know her as one of their favourite authors, Josephine M. Bettany. If when I'd started school, EBD or one of my other favourite authors, came up to me Joey-style, I'd have been willing to overlook all sorts of things that might bother me with someone else


Exactly - I think of Joey as the J.K.Rowling of the EBD universe. If I was at a new school, and JKR bounded up to me and invited me over and showed me all her kids and her life and knew all about me, I wouldn't be thinking "Who the hell is this woman?", I'd be thinking "Oh my God, the author of the Harry Potter books is talking to me!!!"

Author:  Nightwing [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

This is one of those things where real world vs. the CS world comes into play. In a real world situation, Joey's behaviour would undoubtedly be rude - but because no one in the CS-world finds it offensive I don't really have a problem with it. When I do find a hint of my real world mentality creeping in, I find it pretty easy to find reasons why people aren't offended by it - and the best one that comes to mind is that Joey is very charismatic, even as a child.

I might have already said this in the Joey-bashing thread, but that's more-or-less my biggest problem with Joey-bashing stories. In drabbles where, say, Hilda secretly resents the way Joey always bursts into her office, the drabblers are ignoring the fact that Hilda always welcomes Joey, and that she's pleased to have her butting-in with girls whom she herself can't help. It irritates me that there are more stories where other characters react in a realistic way to Joey's meddling than there are stories where Joey acts in a more realistic way herself.

Author:  MJKB [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

I'd have thought I'd died and gone to heaven if at 13 or 14, an adult, a celebrity too, took as much notice of me as Joey does of the CS girls. Young people respond to one/one attention from a sympathetic authority figure, and this type of attention would have been especially welcome to girls away from home for the first time. Now while as an adult I can see how patronising she is at times, particularly with girls like Ros Lilley,for example, I'm still convinved that Joey's genuine kindness and warmth would have seemed heaven sent. And Joey is kind, even when she is interfering, so looking at her from the perspective of a child or young adolescent, she has my vote.

The problem with Joey as I see it is that she was left with no wriggle room. Everyone puts her on a pedestal, looks to her for pearls of wisdom, laughs at her jokes, admires her capacity to be able combine a career with extraordinary home responsibility. In other words, EBD gives us a woman who is never at a loss. She can fall into packing cases from which she has to be rescued, faint for periods longer than any human being ever has before, but instead of scenes like these making her appear vulnerable, they just add to the legend that is Joey. Joey accepts as her due, other people's exaggerated estimation of her and that can become a very tiresome and unlikeable trait in a human being. I'm not quite sure what the opposite of unassuming is but I know who she is.
Having said all that, which is undeniably negative, I still say Joey is one of the most engaging adults in GO literature. She may be interfering, sometimes patronising, and quite often tactless, but she is really, really kind, and that, imho, helps make up for all her other annoying traits.

Author:  Margaret [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

I would just love to see her get her come-uppance occasionally!

Author:  Cat C [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Nightwing wrote:
I might have already said this in the Joey-bashing thread, but that's more-or-less my biggest problem with Joey-bashing stories. In drabbles where, say, Hilda secretly resents the way Joey always bursts into her office, the drabblers are ignoring the fact that Hilda always welcomes Joey, and that she's pleased to have her butting-in with girls whom she herself can't help. It irritates me that there are more stories where other characters react in a realistic way to Joey's meddling than there are stories where Joey acts in a more realistic way herself.


I think that's exactly right. It's also why the Joey-in-2004 (or whichever year it was) struck me as unfair - anyone pitch-forked forward in time 50 years would look and/or sound a bit weird.

There is at least one drabble I read though which circumvents most of those problems, and involves her reaction to a teenage Felix being in a near-fatal road accident - although I can't for the life of me remember the author or title. The summary mentions that it has a nice grown-up Steve in it, which is true. It's very well-written, and I think it works because it takes Joey out of her comfort zone without being completely unsympathetic.

I keep avoiding writing Joey into my Nigella drabble (although I don't suppose I can put it off forever) - just because I feel torn between wanting to be true to EBD, and writing about her realistically coping with the idea of Nigella (even if she's just discussing her over the phone with Hilda).

ETA: This also might be more suitable in the Joey-bashing thread?

Author:  Maeve [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Nightwing wrote
Quote:
In drabbles where, say, Hilda secretly resents the way Joey always bursts into her office, the drabblers are ignoring the fact that Hilda always welcomes Joey, and that she's pleased to have her butting-in with girls whom she herself can't help.


Maybe this should go in the Joey-bashing thread, so Mods please move if appropriate: what gets me about the situation described by Nightwing, is that I feel Hilda starts to act out of character (a character which EBD created) when she behaves as though she needs Joey to help with every problem new girl. Hilda herself, as written by EBD, is so capable -- why should she need Joey so excessively. So the drabblers are on to something

It occurs to me that maybe we get a little bit annoyed/upset with the characters and criticize them a lot or a little because they are so real to us, like friends as someone else wrote, and because we want them to be the best they can be.

Because, of course, it's perfectly irrational for me to be disappointed with Hilda, as Nightwing has said, over how she includes Joey on so many private school decisions, problem new girls, etc., -- Hilda is just a character in a GO series (not knocking GO lit, but for many of its authors, it was not about deep character development and analysis). Why should I hold her to some real life and probably modern expectation?

But on the other hand -- this is Hilda! Many people's favourite headmistress. The all wise with the beautiful voice. Of course I expect more of her! She can't be so feeble as to always need a former pupil, even if its Joey, to help out so often.

Or Madge, e.g., over how she decides that Josette should leave the school and how that is communicated to Josette, or how she manages the Russell nursery, or how Daisy ends up feeling unwanted -- Madge is just another character in a GO series.

But on the other hand -- this is Madge! The founder of the CS! Everyone's favourite youthful, older sister-mother headmistress! The spirit of the CS (sorry, Joey). Of course I expect more of her! Madge can't be so mean to Josette! Madge can't accidentally or otherwise create a situation where Daisy feel so unloved.

It's actually a credit to EBD's characterization that I am unhappy with a lesser Madge or Hilda. Or that I sometimes find older Joey too gushing and interfering -- it's because younger Joey was so much more interesting and likable.

Author:  jennifer [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Alison H wrote:
in which Joey tells Ruey - then still a virtual stranger - that her chalet looks like "any-day-but-Christmas-Day-in-the-workhouse"!


I must admit, that makes me wonder how well fourteen year old Joey would have done at managing a household with two untidy boys, an absent minded, frequently absent father and no household help! I seem to remember adolescent Joey being untidy and scatterbrained, and pretty clueless about domestic tasks.

As far as Joey's manner goes, I think it would depend a lot on who she was interacting with. Some people would find it relaxing and engaging, and be put at ease by it. Other people would be overwhelmed and jittery, and still others would be offended.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Maeve wrote:
... what gets me about the situation described by Nightwing, is that I feel Hilda starts to act out of character (a character which EBD created) when she behaves as though she needs Joey to help with every problem new girl. Hilda herself, as written by EBD, is so capable -- why should she need Joey so excessively. So the drabblers are on to something


Yes, I think this is the crux of the problem for me. It's like the fact that EBD presents virtually every CS girl, across a variety of faiths and nationalities, as extremely devout, which is one of the moments the sheer unlikeliness of the CS fictional world starts to bother me. With Joey, EBD goes to the trouble of writing a huge variety of characters - girls, mistresses, parents, old friends, incidental characters, servants - which is one the pleasures of the series, but the sense of richness and variation fails when this huge variety of people, over decades and across nationalities, all respond with delight to Joey, even when it seems to contradict other aspects of their character, like Hilda's capability appearing to need to Joey all the time, or sullen, difficult Ted being immediately susceptible to her charm, rather than resenting the fact that a stranger with no official connection to the CS appears to know all about her past... It produces an implausible sameness, because there's no variety of response to her. And it's not that her 'breezy' manner wouldn't be capable of causing a variety of responses, not all of them enamoured.

Even one or two credible characters (like Lois Sanger or Tim Keith in AF's Kingscote books, who are not keen on/gently mock the attractive, popular Marlows) with a different response would bring the cult of Joey back within the bounds of plausibility.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

In the early books there are some people who don't react well to Joey. Admittedly they are Naughty People who are Not Proper Chalet School People - Thekla and the 2 "nasty" Matrons - but at least they're there. None in the later books, though.

I like the section in New Mistress in which Kathie doesn't immediately take to Mary-Lou, for just that reason. EBD acknowledges there that, whilst Mary-Lou has many good qualities, there are things about her which some people may find annoying, which makes her all the more "real".

In fact, to some extent even Mary-Lou is only allowed big moments when Joey is "busy" and therefore hors de combat. Had Joey not been "busy" in Mary-Lou, when Jessica arrived at the school, or in Trials when Naomi arrived and Theodora when there was the big row with the triplets, poor Mary-Lou would probably have had to take a back seat!

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

Alison H wrote:
Had Joey not been "busy" in Mary-Lou, when Jessica arrived at the school, or in Trials when Naomi arrived and Theodora when there was the big row with the triplets, poor Mary-Lou would probably have had to take a back seat!


So the 'long family' kept lengthening still further in order to give OOAO some plot-lines?! Good lord, could Joey not have been genuinely 'busy' in a non-reproductive sense for once, with her existing children and wards, and a particularly problematic book her editor kept sending back with queries and requests for cuts...? Or do we imagine Joey's editor to have been equally charmed by her and all of her productions?

Though, to pick up on a point more than one person made earlier, even if we do see Joey as Enid-Blyton-type celebrity children's author,
I can't imagine The Rose Patrol in the Alps being too heavy to pick up comfortably, like some of JK Rowling's Harry Potter books, which would have benefited from much stricter editing!

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joey's breezy manner

:lol: :lol: I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but Mary-Lou tried to help Joan and Nina and ended up having to take a back seat to Joey in both cases. She was probably glad to have Joey out of the way!

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