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Books: Jane and the Chalet School
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Author:  Róisín [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Synopsis here.

Is this the first time (perhaps apart from Thekla) that EBD has seriously tackled bullying in school? And is it significant that she used a character that she wants us to like? Is Jane a realistic character; do you like her? What about Jack's relationship with Len in this book - the whole start of the bullying is because Jack is removed from Len's dormitory and no longer has daily access to her.

There are lots more things to discuss about this book: please join in below :D

Next Sunday: Redheads at the Chalet School

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I actually liked this book in a huge part because I really liked Jane as a character and Jose and the rest of the form (which include Ailie, Janice and Judy) I think in the latter books this form has the best group of girls which is very reminisent of Bride and co where there was no one strong leader but a few different ones.

I also really liked the play the girls put on and seeing more of that form.

Now to get onto the bullying. It started with a major EBDism of Jack being seperated from Len however, it said in Triplets that Len was no longer Jack's dorm prefect because she was a school prefect, so she was already seperated from her! I thought Jack's behaviour was disgusting, though realistic and why no one stood up to her and told her off I will never know. I know Wanda said something but nothing to effect. I think Jane's form should have said something to those in authority or Jack herself especially as they all knew it was happening. I think so many tried to shield Jack instead of forcing her to face the consequences of her bullying which was wrong, even though she did seem to reform in the next couple of terms.

If I were Len, I would have found Jack's jealousy difficult to take as she was never allowed to be close to any younger girl other than Jack. And was always very aware after this book of Jack's potential jealousy and nastiness towards the girl she does give any attention to.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I like Elisaveta so like seeing her daughter play a prominent role in this book, and I really like the Ailie-Janice-Judy trio and am only sorry that they're later overshadowed by Jack's gang.

The "luvvie" stuff is a bit daft, but it makes Jane "different" and it's always nice to see someone different. We get various people over the years who are good at music or writing, but I think Jane's the only one to be good at acting.

It's good to see EBD tackle bullying, which unfortunately is something that happens in pretty much every school. The scenario in which one pupil has the misfortune to fall foul of the bullying leader of a gang and has their life made a misery by the whole gang is very realistic. However, I don't think EBD handles it very well. Jane is initially treated as if she's somehow to blame. With the Betty Landon book-end incident you can just about (if you try hard!) make a case for Betty being a tiny bit to blame because she'd been tactless, but this started with Jane obeying the instructions of a mistress, over something she had no way of knowing involved Jack at all: there's no way that she was at fault. Also, I would have liked to see Hilda be made aware of what was going on and a formal punishment meted out to Jack.

I'm never sure where EBD was going with Jack. I assume that Jack was "slated" to be the "heroine" after Len left, but IMO Jack just isn't very likeable. Far more realistic than Len or even Mary-Lou, but definitely not likeable, even later on.

Jack's "thing" about Len is one of the very few instances we see in the books of the sort of admiration of a younger girl for an older girl that's common in many other GO books. The first one is Simone with Joey, and in that case they're actually the same age and it's more about Simone being lonely and clingy than anything else - and to some extent it's the same with Rosalie Way with Tom. The other obvious one is Tom's for Daisy; and Tom, like Jack, is someone who would consider herself as unsoppy as you can get. I'm not quite sure what that signifies, but it seems like it ought to signify something!

Author:  andydaly [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I really liked this book; I thought this was very well handled.

Jack taking a dislike to someone for no reason whatever, acting it out on the flimsiest of excuses, the form more or less going along with it, or colluding by silence, no official action being taken and the situation being allowed to play itself out - it's absolutely realistic. The idea that Jane would be initially blamed is also a nice touch - there is always an element of "What did you do to deserve it?" in such situations.

I loved Jane - she is a little affected, but I find her funny and gentle and good hearted, and a significantly more attractive character than Jack, who is a snotty selfish brat. She hinted gently.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I liked this book too, mainly because of Jane. I was, however, very disappointed at the way in which the bullying was handled. EBD sometimes has strange priorities. Girls are roasted for attending mid-nights and other fairly inoccuous behaviours but evade serious punishment for bullying.
Jack is guilty of several different kinds of bullying; first of all she intimidates Jane, then she tries exclusion and finally caps it all with assault. What was Jane expected to do, I wonder? Allow herself to be beaten up?

Author:  Abi [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I too like Jane; although she's a bit gushy she's also generous and open and kind.

The bullying on the other hand is realistic but very unpleasant - and really, really badly handled by the prefects. Maybe this is the kind of thing that could happen, but what kind of message was EBD sending to her readers???

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

It is rather surprising that EBD handled the bullying in the way she did. Jack's 'sins' are legion in this book. She displays anger, envy, covetousness, pride, all that's missing is lust, glottony and sloth. She deserved suspension, at the very least, for her unprovoked attack on Jane, and that was only one incident.
EBD seems to admire overpowering and/or self obsessed leaders of which there are several examples in the series, Joey, ML and now Jack, and coming up behind Jack, in the two last books, Jocylin.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Jane is a thoroughly nice character, and I agree with everyone else who said that her bullying by Jack is rather unpleasantly handled by EBD. It's odd that we're clearly supposed to continue to like Jack despite her massively nasty behavior. I always feel like objecting when Len says at one point rather dismissively that Anne, Jack's sister, is terribly 'colourless' by comparison. One feels like pointing out that perhaps 'colourless' is better than bullying!

The scene that encapsulates EBD's slightly weird attitude to the bullying for me is when Len finds Jack with Jane up against the wall of the out-of-bounds corridor. Len sees and hears enough to grasp the situation, but rather than focusing on dealing with Jack's bad behaviour immediately, her immediate focus is on rebuking a new girl for using an out of bounds corridor, and not on asking her whether she's all right or for her side of the story! Len, who is famously responsible and sensitive, seems to me to fall down badly here - she seems more focused on Jane's eccentric vocabulary than on the fact that's she's just witnessed a CS girl behave appallingly to a blameless new girl:

Quote:
"Gosh! What have we collected this time?" she asked herself as she limped into IIIa, her lips straight again, though her eyes were still dancing with amusement. "I think I'd better cultivate Jane Carew a little. She'll be quite a novel experience for me! "


In fact, Len spends considerably more time, effort and sensitivity on the bully, and trying to make Jack understand Jane - by telling her private information about Jane's background that she's heard at Freudesheim, and which she knows has not been revealed at school! The point, surely, is that it makes not a jot of difference whether Jack 'understands' or 'likes' Jane or not - as a CS girl living in a community environment, she cannot be expected to like everyone, but is required by common decency and the rules of the school to behave civilly towards them. Instead, Len focuses on what she calls 'Jane's oddities', as though this somehow legitimises Jack's behaviour. Jane's tendency to gush has been fading ever since she got to the CS, and doesn't need excusing or explaining, but Jack's behaviour surely does!

And this isn't limited to Len - the other prefects talk about Jack and Jane 'having somehow got across one another', as though it's a mutual dislike. I also find Maeve's treatment of the whole car wash incident really strange - even after Jane has made it clear that Miss Ferrars asked her to clean the car, Maeve asks her to repeat exactly what the mistress said, and then asks again
Quote:
"Has no one told you that Jack generally does help Miss Ferrars and Miss Wilmot with their car?"


As Jane quite rightly points out, she's a new girl, with no possible way of knowing the habits of three people she's only just met!

Also, could someone remind me of the kind of Terribly Important Questions Jack needs to ask Len about - I can't for the life of me remember any. Are they so very deep that the average dormitory prefect couldn't cope?

I like this book in general, but the one thing that thoroughly depresses me about it isn't Jack or some odd prefecting, but the fact that an entire form, even at the CS, where everyone is well-drilled in politeness and hospitality and sheepdogging, is prepared to go along with the bullying of a new girl based on the irrational dislike of a single person. Compare with the Middles' behaviour towards the genuinely problem Eustacia - they still treat her with scrupulous politeness.

Author:  andydaly [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:
one thing that thoroughly depresses me about it isn't Jack or some odd prefecting, but the fact that an entire form, even at the CS, where everyone is well-drilled in politeness and hospitality and sheepdogging, is prepared to go along with the bullying of a new girl based on the irrational dislike of a single person.


Much the same thing happened to me at school. One person decided they disliked me (I was a know all, swot, etc. even though I wasn't!), and the rest followed bleating along. The vast majority of them nice, genuine, decent girls, without a particle of malice in them, ignored and excluded me for about three years. Jane and the Chalet School may be unpleasant to read, but in the description of the worst tribal tendencies of the average adolescent, for me, EBD caught it beautifully.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

((andydaly)) Nothing that bad happened to me, thankfully, but one particular girl, who like Jack was the leader of a little clique took a dislike to me and my friend (for no obvious reason :( ), and we had a lot of hassle from the whole clique as a result. People are often afraid to be seen to go against a gang leader, even if they don't agree with his or her behaviour.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I hear you, and I'm sorry it happened to you, Andydaly, but while I don't for a minute doubt the realism of the situation in the real world, what bothers me is encountering it in EBD's highly-idealised CS world. How on earth can an entire form collectively bullying a new girl on the orders of a single gang leader (and who perfectly well understand the idiotic source of Jack's dislike in her irrational feeling of ownership of Len) be 'real CS girls'? There's almost no condemnation of their behaviour. There's a bit at the shared tennis lesson where Jane is pathetically happy to see a member of her own form, Wilma, but we're told Wilma
Quote:
is a sheep of a girl, running with the crowd and rarely voicing an opinion of her own. She grinned feebly at Jane, but made no effort to talk to her.


Fine, but if Wilma is a sheep for running with the crowd, what does that make Jack's entire form (not just her Gang), including girls who are otherwise presented throughout the series as likeable and attractive, like Wanda von Eschenau, relative of one of the original CS girls? Or a form prefect like Barbara Hewett, specifically told by a mistress to bring a desk and settle in a new girl, but who disobeys a direct order from a mistress to obey Jack? And these are girls who go on doing Jack's bidding until she calls them off, whereupon they immediately obey her without question. Surely it suggests a combination of mindless following and individual dictatorship, in fact a fairly nasty gang culture, which is very much at odds with the CS ethos? Are we to assume the prefects and staff approve of Jack and the Gang's influence in general, or are they unaware of its potential problems?

I do find myself comparing it with the treatment of Eustacia by her form when she first arrives. They don't want for leaders and strong characters, with Evvy and Margia around, and Eustacia is much more dislikeable than Jane, but even though they do send her to Coventry for a short period, they remain polite, and make a point of seeing she is looked after at meals etc. I can't help feeling that the leader/follower culture has suddenly become much more thuggish by Jack's gang!

I wouldn't blink at this in another series, but at the CS, where everyone is a 'real CS girl' after a term and basically decent, it shocks me!

Author:  JS [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Quote:
I do find myself comparing it with the treatment of Eustacia by her form when she first arrives. They don't want for leaders and strong characters, with Evvy and Margia around, and Eustacia is much more dislikeable than Jane, but even though they do send her to Coventry for a short period, they remain polite, and make a point of seeing she is looked after at meals etc. I can't help feeling that the leader/follower culture has suddenly become much more thuggish by Jack's gang!


I'm reminded too of, was it Lavender, where, I think possibly Biddy or one of the other older girls steps in and encourages the form to lighten up on Lavender because otherwise it's close to 'bullying'. That was, I think, sending out the right messages.

I think the whole Jack/Jane thing is quite, quite horrible and even if it is realistic, the way it's dealt with is wrong, in that EBD/staff/Len etc seem to be condoning the bullying. Much as I like Jane - and it was great to see someone knew and 'different' - it's another symptom of the series falling away towards the end, I fear.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

That's kind of what I meant about not being sure where EBD was going with Jack - yes, Jack's a more realistic character than Len or Mary-Lou, but she's not a "real" CS girl, and in the stories surrounding her other people don't tend to act like "real" CS girls either.

If "always on the spot" Mary-Lou had still been Head Girl at this point, she'd have realised that there was a problem - as she did with Margot and Ted - and she'd have given Jack & co a rollicking they'd never have forgotten.

I was going to say that evidently this is what happens when neither Mary-Lou nor Joey butt in - the whole ethos of the school falls apart :roll: - but in Island we get two relatively unimportant prefects realising that Annis is unhappy, and in Richenda we see Ricki - a new girl herself - trying to help Odette, and in Trials everyone tries to be nice to Naomi even though she isn't very nice back.

There's a definite culture change with Jack :( . A realistic one, but not a nice one.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Being devil's advocate for a minute, isn't Mary-Lou and her Gang just the positive flipside of Jack and hers? You have the exact same situation - an all-powerful leader who 'leads her peers by the nose' and whose diktats everyone obeys, and who is allowed more leeway than other girls as a 'colourful character' by the staff etc etc.

The only difference between OOAO and Jack is that Mary-Lou happens to be a thoroughly positive influence, who uses her position for good, but that's purely an accident of circumstances (plus a bit of moral backmail from a 'busy' Joey at intervals!) It leaves the basic problem of the All-Powerful Gang Leader, who has far too much influence over her peers (who follow her about, psychologically-speaking, in a herd), unsolved. I suppose you could say that the other members of Mary-Lou's Gang are stronger individuals than Jack's, but in saying that, I'm probably thinking of them when they're all prefects, and the gang has pretty much dissolved. (I can't think of an instance when Vi, for instance, or Hilary, disagreed with OOAO - and Verity turns from an opinionated, stubborn little madam into a dozy, slightly slow-witted dreamer the more time she spends with Mary-Lou, apparently because she can rely on her to do the punctuality etc for them both...)

Not quite sure where I'm going with this, other than wondering about EBD's apparent liking for the Strong Single Leader situation. It seems to me to be risking an awful lot on the goodness or otherwise of the individual leader, and to risk making the mass of non-leaders look like 'spineless jellyfish'.

Author:  Maeve [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Am I wrong or is there something very similar in the ways that Len relates to both Margot and Jack, both jealous characters whose behaviour can go way out of bounds, who are very possessive of people whom they consider to be "theirs"? Len seems to pander to both of them and even be a bit afraid of their bad tempers.

From Theodora:
Quote:
"...Auntie Hilda”—Len laid heavy stress on the name—“has told me that I’m to miss the walk for once and help Ted Grantley move all her books and things from Inter V to Vb. I’ll fix up with you for Tuesday, if you like.”
“I’m booked with Francie Wilford for Tuesday. Can’t someone else take on Ted Grantley? She isn’t a V.I.P., is she?” Margot’s blue eyes suddenly flamed with a light her sister knew and dreaded.


And from Redheads:
Quote:
. [Len said] "...I'm all right, Flavia. Don't look so worried." Whereat Jack darted a quick look at her and another, rather less friendly than usual, at Copper.
Len caught both looks and managed to forget her fright a little in hastening to pour oil on what might become troubled waters. Jack Lambert had a tendency to regard the prefect as hers specially and she was a jealous young thing. Only last term there had been trouble with her and the elder girl was not anxious to have the same sort of thing repeated.


It seems like Len can't stand up to their tantrums -- which are almost a form of bullying.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Maeve wrote:
It seems like Len can't stand up to their tantrums -- which are almost a form of bullying.


I guess you'd call it more emotional blackmail? Len wouldn't be the first person to fall under that kind of behaviour, but it does make her seem a little weak - while I can understand her wanting to shield her sister, why in the world would she be trying to protect a girl like Jack - especially given the way that Jack abuses her position as Len's favoured girl?

Author:  JayB [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Quote:
I guess you'd call it more emotional blackmail? Len wouldn't be the first person to fall under that kind of behaviour, but it does make her seem a little weak

Especially as by this time she's a prefect. Fear of unpleasantness shouldn't stop her doing what's right. Mary Lou, or Dickie Christy, or Tom Gay, or Gisela, to name just a few, would never let a Middle get away with bad behaviour because they were afraid she might throw a tantrum.

But I think it's a characteristic of Len's that she is in general too anxious to please. And I think that's something she gets from home, where the 'helpful oldest daughter' conditioning has made her too compliant and reluctant to make waves.

Author:  Emma A [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I'd suggest that Len has a learned response to anger - she tries to cover up Margot's tantrums because it's what she's seen Joey doing - and thus tries to smooth over any potential friction. It's also very wearying to deal with if you don't want someone to "go pop" over something fairly trivial (as I think Con phrases it). One can understand it to an extent with Margot, since Len is the elder sister, and responsible. Len has, however, made herself responsible for Jack, and is quick to mollify any potential signs of temper or ill-feeling.

I like this book, apart from Jack. Jane is a very appealing character - her gushiness is quite funny, but she soon moderates that - and she's friendly, affectionate, brave and talented. I'm not so sure that I could have made friends so quickly with someone who had taken an irrational hatred for me, but Jane does so, and that makes her all the more admirable, perhaps.

I may add more when I re-read this... :oops:

Author:  JayB [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Quote:
I'd suggest that Len has a learned response to anger - she tries to cover up Margot's tantrums because it's what she's seen Joey doing - and thus tries to smooth over any potential friction.

And we hear of her taking similar avoiding action in Joey Goes, when she hustles the whole family off to Hilary's to be out of Jack's way.

Author:  jennifer [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I like Jane. Her mannerisms may be a bit over the top, but she comes across as a very fresh and unselfconscious result of an unusual background. I like Jose too - she seems very much Elisaveta's daughter, as she's friendly and practical, not at all puffed up about her background, but not uncomfortable about it either, and inclined to make the best of things. I would rather have seen more about Jane, Jose, Ailie, Judy and Janice than Jack's gang in later books!

Jack's bullying is highly unpleasant, but very realistic. Blaming Jane isn't too far off the mark either. Having been bullied at around that age, I remember that at school a lot of the onus was put on me to change things. Ignore the bully and don't show that they are hurting you and they'll get bored and go away. Be nice to them and try to make friends. Great passive aggressive, placating approach to being emotionally abused! Personally, I favour my eventual solution of trying to beat the living daylights out of my main tormentor.

But it grates from a CS perspective. Jack is a leader, but she's not at all likeable. She's a bully with an unstable temper, a jealous streak and a nasty taste in pranks. Jane, a new, sensitive student who has done nothing wrong, is being tormented, but all the attention seems to be on protecting Jack from the consequences of her actions. Even Misses Ferrars and Wilmot conspire to hide Jack's unprovoked physical attack on a fellow student from Miss Annersley, and it's said this isn't the first time she's gone after someone like that.

For Len - I can see how Len has ended up in that sort of enabler role. She's always protected Margot, diffusing her temper, intervening for her, and hiding her bad behaviour from authority. She's simply doing the same for Jack. But it's not very good for the school, or for Margot and Jack. For one thing, it effectively cuts Len off from any meaningful contact with the younger students, because Jack will torment anyone she befriends. For another, Jack basically has her own personal keeper who follows her around keeping an eye on her. What will happen when Len leaves, and Jack is on her own?

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

There are also lots of things I like, and find funny about this one - once I force myself to think of something other than the bullying. I love the whole play sequence - given that we also see Con saving the pantomime in Triplets, I wonder whether EBD was having some particular contact with theatre at this time? I like that EBD seems to be poking fun at her own writing, by having Ruey concoct a somewhat preposterous plot, involving a murderous valet, simple God-fearing peasants and the coincidental discovery of a long-lost relative of the main character, all of which feature in the CS books - and then having Joey say drily 'I've seen worse.'

Also, it cracks me up that a pecking-order is emerging among doctors for the first time in the series. Previously, Any Doctor = God, but now when Janice Chester has mysterious spots, you get the somewhat less uncritical

Quote:
"I wish we could call in one of the older doctors. Young Gordon is a very nice lad, but he hasn't had the experience of the others."


whereas when Lady Carew is in danger of death, the mere fact that Jem happens to be able to visit her hospital means that he, not the surgeon who operated, is the one whose medical expertise is quoted to reassure Jane:

Quote:
'Dr Jem really knows. He said, 'Tell Jane that though it will probably be very slow, I think myself her mother will pull through'. And he knows!"


Poor Gordon the young doctor - it must be galling that you can't even diagnose a case of cowpox, but Jem the TB specialist can stride into a foreign hospital and, at a glance, 'really know' about someone else's case!

My favourite EBDism is that we're carefully told that at the start of the ramble where Jane and Jack get stuck up the tree that
Quote:
Miss Ferrars had a case of sewing-cottons, needles and scissors in case of accidents to clothes. Later, much later, both were thankful to have them.

But, after Jack and Jane are rescued, and washed and tidied, we're told that Jack's frock is torn, which is when we expect the sewing kit to be produced. But no - Len says, incredibly, given that they've walked a long way and left the Platz, and that it's such a hot day it was unwise to sit in full sun at 10 am, that she'll run home to Freudesheim via s short-cut she knows, and returns
Quote:
laden with frocks, underclothes, sandals and a very full sponge-bag and towels. Len had even remembered ribbons for Jane's pigtails.


Honestly, EBD! You gave the mistresses a sewing kit on purpose, and you've already told us that Jane and Jack washed in the brook, and that Jane's tied her plaits with wool - is it really worth making poor, fussy, over-responsible Len run for miles up and down a mountain in a heatwave so that Jane can wear hair-ribbons to go home in?? Poor Len!

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Excellent!
Like Sunglass, I won't take up any further time on the bullying, which, like everybody else who has posted here, I found deplorable. I find it puzzling too that EBD manages to create a very likeable character, unusual and individualistic too, and yet one can clearly see a deterioration in the general characterisation and particularly in the treatment of serious issues like school bullying. Most of us feel let down that such things could happen in the Chalet School whose ethos has consistently militated against such wholesale nastiness. (ooohh I HATE that Jack one!)
Why did EBD give us such a bubbly, pleasant character and then have her treated so abyssimally?

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:
Honestly, EBD! You gave the mistresses a sewing kit on purpose, and you've already told us that Jane and Jack washed in the brook, and that Jane's tied her plaits with wool - is it really worth making poor, fussy, over-responsible Len run for miles up and down a mountain in a heatwave so that Jane can wear hair-ribbons to go home in?? Poor Len!


Can't just imagine the conversation when Len got home.

"Oh Mama, come quick! Jack and Jane have got into the most awful trouble!"
"Oh, my dear! Should I ring the San?"
"No - no! Just bring me some hair-ribbons!"

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Nightwing wrote:
Sunglass wrote:
Honestly, EBD! You gave the mistresses a sewing kit on purpose, and you've already told us that Jane and Jack washed in the brook, and that Jane's tied her plaits with wool - is it really worth making poor, fussy, over-responsible Len run for miles up and down a mountain in a heatwave so that Jane can wear hair-ribbons to go home in?? Poor Len!


Can't just imagine the conversation when Len got home.

"Oh Mama, come quick! Jack and Jane have got into the most awful trouble!"
"Oh, my dear! Should I ring the San?"
"No - no! Just bring me some hair-ribbons!"


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


One thing I did like was the play Va put on. It's one of the few times I think where a form is really enterprising with their entertainment rather than just doing tableuxs or paper games

Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

It does seem odd of EBD to make such a point of the sewing kit and then forget to use it -- but given that Jack's walking around with no frock and torn knickers, it probably wasn't adequate.

Jack is never going to be one of my favorite characters, any more than Veronica Ganz (nasty bully in Marilyn Sachs who eventually matures into a doctor), but I don't at all agree that the school's approach to her reform is wrong. Whereas a second Head's Report or worse would be just another grievance to chalk up to Jane, Len and Hilda's efforts, plus Jane herself, are ultimately responsible for Jack changing deep down.

As Hilda says,
Quote:
"Poor Jack! Still, feeling herself what she calls' a specious pig' and repenting for dear life of her many sins won't hurt her. In fact, this looks to me like a turning-point for her. Jack will make all the finer woman for her present bitter regret, so I'm not sorry for her really.


Quote:
"I see," Len said quietly. "You know, Jack, what's really happened is that you've got round to disliking not Jane, but the girl you've been where Jane was concerned. You'd like to make a fresh start, but haven't much chance of a straight talk with her in school; and you're afraid she may think that what you say is because you're sorry for her and you'd hate that yourself."
Jack stared at her, wide-eyed. "Gosh! How did you understand?"


For me, the characters who come out well are Jane and Len, and the way Len is portrayed in the comments is another of those factors that sometimes makes me feel as though I'm trespassing in some kind of weird alternative universe here, where "Blessed are the peacemakers" has been swapped for rhetoric about "enabling," and teaching one's children by example and explanation -- the initial "formation of conscience" we were taught to think of as a critical responsibility of parents -- has become "emotional blackmail." Obviously it is possible for diplomacy to go over the edge into appeasement, and emotions can be manipulated in ways that aren't so healthy, but from my perspective EBD's heroines are well on the virtuous side of the scale. As for "passive aggressive," urgh. To me that's another male construct in the "It was all Eve's fault" vein, typically invoked to make men feel less guilty about physical abuse.

As for the rest of Jane, I agree that the play is one of EBD's best efforts in that line. (In other words, I giggle instead of going into skim mode.) This is also the book where hear about Hilda's mother, something that wouldn't make it into the typical school story. That's the sort of thing that makes EBD's universe more alive than those of most of her peers.

Author:  KatS [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Quote:
Whereas a second Head's Report or worse would be just another grievance to chalk up to Jane, Len and Hilda's efforts, plus Jane herself, are ultimately responsible for Jack changing deep down.


My problem with the Jack/Jane punishment scene is not that Jack does not eventually repent of her ways, but that Jane is blamed and scolded about what happens to her. When she has been pinned against the wall and mocked, she is told off for being in a out-of-bounds hallway, and her plight is ignored. When she, a new girl away from home for the first time has been physically attacked for no fault of her own by the acknowledged leader of her form, she gets no sympathy, no one asking if she is OK, no apologies - she's just told curtly to clean herself up and remember that a lady keeps her hands to herself. Honestly, whatever one feels about "Blessed are the peacemakers", I don't think this is acceptable behaviour on the part of the prefects and the staff. Yes, Jack repents, but Jane has suffered a great deal, and she receives no support whatsoever from the school.

Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Quote:
I don't at all agree that the school's approach to her reform is wrong. Whereas a second Head's Report or worse would be just another grievance to chalk up to Jane, Len and Hilda's efforts, plus Jane herself, are ultimately responsible for Jack changing deep down.


My problem with the approach taken by the CS is that it views Jane as a kind of instrument of moral reform for Jack - it's all about Jack, and Jack's issues - but in fact there are two girls here, not one, and whether or not the episode is the turning point in Jack's life shouldn't affect the fact that Jane deserves fair treatment, which I don't think she gets for a lot of the book. EBD could have chosen to write a book in which there was equal blame on both sides, or in which the Jack/Jane situation was muddier, but in fact, bar Jane's tendency to luvvie-speak (which fades nearly as fast as Ros Lilley's Hampshire accent) she does nothing wrong, and is 'rewarded' for this only by having her responses to being bullied sidelined in favour of the bully's response. In other words, it's the neglect of Jane, rather than the treatment of Jack, that I object to, though I do think that to hold off on giving Jack a Head's Report because it would be 'another grievance to chalk up to Jane' just panders to Jack's inability to take responsibility for her own emotions.

'Blessed are the peacemakers' is a noble motto, but the peacemaking in this novel is done at the expense of a vulnerable new girl, by a prefect who should know better. I confess I'd not particularly noticed Len's pattern of covering for Margot and Jack, and its suggestion of a fear of open conflict or aggression, but now that it's pointed out, I do see it. And I think the fact that various credible characters point out less-than-healthy aspects of Len's character in the later books suggests that even EBD had some doubts about her 'perfect' CS girl - for me, she fails here in her responsibility to protect Jane.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Neither of these is related to my comment about peacemaking, which referred to a series-spanning list denigrating every time Len 'pours oil on troubled waters.'

I agree that the tendency of the CS to punish every one in spitting distance is a bit much. However, in the hallway instance, it's Jack that gets
Quote:
There was silence for a full minute. Then Len spoke and her words were icy. "That will do, Jacynth. Go to your formroom at once. I will see you about this later. Go, I say!"
The reminder that Jane shouldn't be in the wrong corridor isn't followed by the usual order mark, but by Jane's very adult acknowledgement, Len's eyes losing their iciness, and
Quote:
"Good! Now you'll have to scram or you'll be late for prep. You've exactly two minutes to get there."
"Oh, darling, I must fly!" Jane exclaimed, herself again. "We have Francie Wilford on duty tonight and you can't imagine what a dirty look she can give you if you aren't punctual! I will remember, though – and thanks a million!"
Not exactly the response of your typical homesick victim! An amazing individual, Jane.

After the fight scene, Jack is immediately pinpointed as the one who started it, and told off for disbelieving Jane. Yes, Jane is told she shouldn't fight, and that she should go sit quietly in the arbor with her book until the bell goes, but isn't the latter more of a cooling off period than a punishment? Usually the CS girls sent off as minor malefactors before the main criminal(s) are dealt with, end up with any combination of order marks and lines and sheet hemming, even they've done nothing but giggle inappropriately :?, and compared to RL schools where anyone involved in a fight is usually in deep trouble, this seemed pretty mild.

Jack, on the other hand, gets the benefit of one of those study scenes too dire to be reported, even if it's with Kathie & Nancy rather than the Head.
Quote:
Just what the two mistresses said to Jack, only they and that criminal ever knew. It was effective, all right.
Shame it wasn't effective enough for a sincere apology :evil:, and Len's claim that she's never known Jack to hold a grudge comes across as absurd :roll:, but given the usual objections of CBBers to EBD's more instantaneous transformations, I should think a slower coming to see the light would be appreciated. I'm still very disappointed that Jack's "sheep" never learn to be less sheep-like, though. And Jane is a lot more forgiving that I would be. *still doesn't like Jack*

*would much prefer reading a book under the arbor to finishing lunch and going back to work*

Author:  Lesley [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Perhaps it is different in the hardback - I only have the paperback - but I cannot agree with Maeve's treatment of Jane. While it has been established that Jane was completely blameless and did not start the fight. Was, in fact, purely obeying an order from Miss Ferrars when Jack attacked her, Maeve is still very abrupt...

Quote:
"Very well, Jane, we believe you. At the same time, you had no business to fight as you did. You're neither a schoolboy nor a baby. You're fourteen and expected to behave like fourteen. The fact that it was Jack who began it makes it a little less serious, but in future, keep your hands to yourself. Now you may go. Take your book and go and sit by yourself in the arbour and stay there till the bell goes. Perhaps, by that time, you will have learned that a girl who may be a full Senior Middle next term can't behave in that way.


That's not a cooling off period, in my opinion - that's a punishment. Jane is basically being told that she should not have attempted to defend herself. Perhaps Maeve would have preferred Jane to have sat placidly with her arms by her side and just taken all the physical punishment Jack was prepared to dish out?

I think the character of Jane is extremely well done - and it's nice to see someone different. Jack Lambert, however, seems to be an extremely nasty bully who is protected by both Prefects and Mistresses - yes she is punished and has her 'behind closed doors' with Miss Ferrars and Miss Wilmot - but why did they decide not to report it to the Head? Anyone else would have been so reported - and Jack would have deserved whatever punishment she received.

I agree with the comments made that the onus seems far more on the bully than on the victim - she seems almost incidental here and has the disturbing addition that she is partially blamed.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I think probably part of my response is based on my experience as bully-ee. Sadly, any punishment inflicted on the bullies normally resulted in intensified bullying -- obviously it's your fault they got in trouble -- and Jack's record suggests she would respond in just this way. Therefore I find the CS tactics, which ultimately got Jack to realize that she, not Jane, was the problem, as very positive. Plus, I find the CS version of blaming the victim very mild by comparison to the RL version. Reading a book in a peaceful spot, with the bully safely incarcerated....

(Too be fair, one of my bullies did apologize years later.)

Author:  Lesley [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I'm sorry for the fact you were bullied, Kathy.

But while the punishment is extremely mild by RL standards it's the fact that there is a punishment at all that I object to. In many other incidents in the CS series when there has been bullying the CS response has always been a wholehearted approach to negate that bullying. A recent example would be when Margot attempted her bullying/blackmail of Ted - Margot was blamed. Other than a mild rebuke for previous behaviour Mary Lou did not think to blame Ted for the fact that she was bullied. Further back - Kitty Burnett was not blamed for having her ears boxed by Eustacia - even though the first fault was hers. In both of those and in others the onus was on the fact that the bully was behaving badly and needed to change their behaviour - the bully was the 'bad guy'. However EBD seems to have lost the plot slightly here as she has someone the reader is supposed to look on as a heroine being the 'bad guy' but then cannot take it through to its logical conclusion and have them go theough the same punishment - and Jack's behaviour was bad enough for the CS to be considering expulsion here.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I agree that it would have been far better to have had nothing that could be construed as blaming the victim. You are right that, although bystanders often did get pulled into punishments, some of the most egregious cases didn't work that way. For example, Bride wasn't punished for having her study demolished.

However, it never occurred to me that Jack was supposed to be heroine! She's the villain. OK, a villain-to-be-reformed-by-the-power-of-the-CS, but a villain. She's there as a foil for Jane and (perhaps more importantly) Len. After all, it's clear (to me at least) that Margot is too close to the convent to provide much more backsliding drama. EBD needed a new long-term problem child at this point in the series, and may also have been responding to people who wanted more "realism."

Author:  Lesley [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Jack is not a villain - her behaviour is that of a villain but she is not treated as such. Everything revolves around ensuring that Jack is given every opportunity to change her behaviour, she's spared a second 'Head's report', Miss Ferrars and Len try to blame themselves for why she behaved badly and excuses about her age (a euphemism for puberty I think) are mentioned. And Jack is allowed to continue to act in the same way.

The reader is invited and encouraged to feel sorry for Jack in a way that is completely different to how EBD has treated misbehaviour in the past. This is the school where every single trick and prank is discovered and punished, where girls are not allowed to misbehave as they know they will be punished. I can't believe that EBD would suddenly decide, 36 years after starting the series, that she would change things to show a different way of treating bad behaviour.

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Jack IMO is definitely a villain rather than a heroine in the general sense, but I think she was a heroine in that she was intended to become the main character in the series when Len left school.

I wonder if maybe EBD deliberately set out to create a new main character who was the complete antithesis of Len, just to try to be different and try out some new things, but then ended up in a bit of a muddle because having a "heroine" whom no-one liked wouldn't work so she had to try to make Jack seem sympathetic ... if that makes any sense! Or maybe she for some reason just liked Jack so she tried to make her readers like her too: Jane Austen sort of went down that road in Sense and Sensibility, expecting the reader to be sorry for Willoughby even though he was a wrong 'un who'd treated more than one woman very badly.

Jack ends up effectively being both the heroine and the villain, and it just doesn't work for me.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

If she were a heroine, there'd be a book called The Chalet School and Jack.... :lol:

I don't think there's a fundamental change, since EBD has always treated schoolgirl villains in a sympathetic way, with the primary emphasis on making them better people. Take, for example, Diana Skelton, who may be the most similar to Jack, not only tormenting Bride but bullying Marian into helping, as well as attracting a set of "frivolous" hangers-on. She's punished but not expelled, and everyone is expected to "give her a helping hand" and "a chance to pull up" in the aftermath. The punishment is an awful lot more public, though. Of course that may be because the Head Girl, Miss A's official representative and a public person, has been targeted, but Jack's treatment is certainly kept more low key, and her empty headed followers somehow avoid being disillusioned. It's also true that Jack gets almost a Eustacia level of book time, to the extent that people seem to think of Jane's book as hers and not Jane's! Poor Jane.

Ah well. I shall doubtless persist in thinking of Jack as the villain of the piece, or at best the sort of antihero then coming into fashion. (I don't care for antiheroes.) And I don't think Jack should have been made form prefect the very next term, for all she's supposed to have reformed. I'm sure they meant to get her to channel her leadership qualities more constructively, but I'd prefer a little more time to see whether the reform is for real first....

Author:  Cat C [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Kathy_S wrote:
The reminder that Jane shouldn't be in the wrong corridor isn't followed by the usual order mark, but by Jane's very adult acknowledgement, Len's eyes losing their iciness, and
Quote:
"Good! Now you'll have to scram or you'll be late for prep. You've exactly two minutes to get there."
"Oh, darling, I must fly!" Jane exclaimed, herself again. "We have Francie Wilford on duty tonight and you can't imagine what a dirty look she can give you if you aren't punctual! I will remember, though – and thanks a million!"
Not exactly the response of your typical homesick victim! An amazing individual, Jane.


I absolutely agree with your assessment. Reading that quotation (from the book), you could almost believe that Jane, after all an actress, is actually, gosh, not sure how to explain this, but there as bait for Jack, with the full knowledge of all concerned but Jack - ie, it's a set up.

Jane doesn't need comforting, because she's there as a dupe - deliberately provoking Jack's behaviour, so it can be corrected.

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Kathy S et al that was excellent reading. It was reminiscent of a tighty fought rally at a Wimbledon Tennis Final!

Author:  JayB [ Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I think one of the problems with Jack is that, as others have said, her form mates were a lot of sheep who didn't challenge her behaviour. In almost every other case, when a girl behaves badly by CS standards, someone will object.

Even when Jo was a schoolgirl, and very much the favoured character, people would tell her when she was being annoying, or say that Madame wouldn't like it, if she proposed some rule breaking scheme.

Mary Lou dealt with Joan Baker, Margot et al. In the Plas Howell/St Briavels days, villains such as Jennifer Penrose and the girl who pushed Lavender into the snow - name forgotten - were dealt with by their contemporaries.

So I think the problem of Jack's behaviour is worsened by the fact that no-one stands up to her, and I think that's because, after Janice, Ailie and Judy, who are in the year above, there are no strong groups of girls coming up the school - ony the odd individual. That's defiinitely a failing of the later books. Up to Janice et al, EBD had been very good at giving us groups of girls with distinct personalities, many of whom the reader has followed up the school since they were Juniors or Junior Middles.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

The stupid thing was in A Leader you have Rosemary Wentworth, Wanda, Renata and Barbara Hewlett all capable of standing up for themselves and showing potential leadership. I have no idea what happened in four terms that turned them all into sheep rather than the fun, interesting characters they looked like being. It was like EBD couldn't write anything about them, but only Jack. Despite in Redheads Flavia says she likes Wanda better, its Jack she turns to when she has problems and we see a sudden turn around of a difficult charcter

Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I read the forbidden corridor scene differently.

For me, it's significant that Jane lies (uncharacteristically) to Len, saying she forgot it was out of bounds, whereas she's actually hiding from her bully:
Quote:
She had seen Jack coming and had slipped into the corridor to avoid meeting her. Jack had made it plain that, for her own reasons, she hated the new girl [...] If they happened to be alone, she always had something hurtful to say and Jane, sensitive and too proud to reply in the same manner, had only silence for her armour.


You might reasonably say that she should have told Len she didn't forget, she intentionally broke a rule as the lesser of two evils - Len isn't psychic - but in fact it's clear that Len grasps exactly what's going on:

Quote:
Both girls were so absorbed in their own encounter that they never heard the prefect's halting step until she was almost on them, and Len heard enough to assure her that Jack was baiting Jane.
"Did the poor little baby run to its mammy with all sorts of tales about the nasty girls?" Jack jeered while Jane, unaccustomed to this sort of thing, stared at her in silence. "Did it want a nice nanny to look after it and tuck it up in bed at nights and kiss it when – "


It's not that Len doesn't get what's going on, but she still chooses to rattle on (kindly enough) about a minor rule infringement, rather than offer to help or advise in a situation she knows perfectly well is bullying. And I think Jane's concluding remark where she's apparently 'herself again' (about Francie Wilford glaring) suggests not composure, but a shaken girl who is a good actress trying to act herself back into her usual mannerisms, and also, desperately trying to get people to like her by being amusing. All that 'darling' stuff seems to me to be a pathetic, brave attempt to be liked in her new environment.

Yet Len spends a lot of time and effort on thinking about how to deal with Jack:
Quote:
She considered seriously how best she could get through the shell of ill-feeling and naughtiness with which Jack had concealed her normal self. It would be no easy task, but Len had had much the same thing to do with the youngest of her triplet sisters, though she didn't think that Margot's troubles in the least resembled Jack's.


I entirely disagree with Len's belief that Jack and Margot's problems aren't similar. It's not difficult to see that both are terribly possessive, both take irrational dislikes to blameless individuals. both have a nasty streak which can emerge in verbal nastiness or physical violence. But the real problem is less their behaviour than (as others have rightly said) that Len has a pattern of minimising the suffering of their victims: Betty Landon's near-death is less important than Margot's remorse for causing a head injury; Jane's suffering is less important than Jack's discomfort with her own behaviour. (Notice too in the bit I quoted above that Jack's behaviour is put down by Len to a 'shell of ill-feeling' rather than her 'normal self', rather as Margot's devil is blamed for her actions, rather than Margot's 'normal self'.)

I feel terribly sorry for Jane, who is such a vivid and plucky character, who is on her own doing all that useless stuff people tell you when you're being bullied - ignore them, say nothing, avoid being on your own with the bully. I just think that if there was ever a moment when a prefect should legitimately involve the Head to help a girl in trouble, this was it, and no concern about shielding Jack from trouble should have prevented that.

(For what it's worth, I was badly bullied too, and I did all the 'right' stuff, spoke to teachers etc. I disapprove of violence on principle, but the only thing that stopped it was fighting back. It ended permanently when I gave Elaine Lenihan a black eye that I hope was a turning point in her life.)

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

I'd like to have seen someone else - maybe Ailie - as the leading character amongst the Middles in the later Swiss books, with Jack there as her bad girl nemesis. We never really get a good "heroine's nemesis" in the CS ... Phil Craven was shaping up really well but then EBD packed her off to South Africa, which IMO was a great shame because I really liked Mary-Lou when she was scrapping with Phil!

Author:  MJKB [ Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Jane and the Chalet School

Kathy_S wrote:
I don't think there's a fundamental change, since EBD has always treated schoolgirl villains in a sympathetic way, with the primary emphasis on making them better people. Take, for example, Diana Skelton, who may be the most similar to Jack, not only tormenting Bride but bullying Marian into helping, as well as attracting a set of "frivolous" hangers-on.

The difference here is that the reader is never meant to regard Diana Sketon as a sympathetic character, nor have her "frivolous" hangers -on any status among the pupils who really matter. Jack is an acknowledged leader in her class and is not meant to seen as a malevolent influence. Her taunting of Jane in the corridor is quite shocking but I actually agree (Ithink!) with KathyS that Len handles a potentially explosive situation with a delicate hand. She removes the agent, Jack, and then tempers the atmosphere by her light remarks to Jane and Jane's response is one of huge relief, at least that's how I read Jane's response.
The treatment of Jack is quite modern in its approach to bullying which I find interesting. Some schools of thought argue that the bully is in as much need of help as the victim. S/he has low self esteem, has severe anger management problems., deep seated emotional problems etc. There is, undeniably, alot of truth in their assumptions. But in Jack's case, it is hard to account for the depth of her anger and jealousy. We know alot about her background, she is named for one of the gentlest Head Girl's the School has ever had, and through her Aunt Gay, we know her family to be full of fun, affection and kindness. There is never any suggestion that Jack has been the 'victim' of either a permissive upbringing or a harsh one. So why is she the way she is if nurture doesn't account for it?

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