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Books: A Problem for the Chalet School
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Author:  Róisín [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Sorry for the hiatus! We are back on track now :D

A Problem for the Chalet School is the book that introduces Rosamund Lilley and Joan Baker. Rosamund has won a scholarship to the CS but doesn't want to go as it means leaving her friends and family at home. Her mother thinks she is being influenced by the wrong friends, however, so Rosamund is sent. When she arrives, she makes friends with Len; but the wrong friend (Joan Baker) turns up at the CS soon after as her father has won the pools.

So what do you think of this book? Are the CS girls snobs? What does this book say about what EBD thought of the working classes? Are Joan's ideas 'cheap'? What about Mary-Lou's interference? Should the school have had a day's holiday because Simone has a baby?!

Please raise any issue you like in the discussion below :D

Author:  Emma A [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:48 pm ]
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I've only ever read Problem in the abridged Armada version, so I don't remember the school getting a day off for Simone's baby :shock: Blimey, if they'd had that for every time Joey produced a sprog... there'd be a special day every year!

I liked this, actually, mainly because I liked Rosamund, and I found her qualms and uncertainties realistic. I found Joan quite realistic, too - though you do have to wonder why (except for plot reasons) she would want to go to the CS, just because Ros got a scholarship there. Yes, the reaction to her by the CS was somewhat snobbish, but she genuinely shocked them, I think, by her behaviour and attitudes: she was so completely different from everyone else. I don't think she's ever thoroughly accepted, unlike Rosamund, but I do think it's because Joan remains herself - slightly less overtly "common", but still with experience and expectation quite different to her fellow pupils.

I do like, by the way, that although Joan is never completely a Chalet girl, EBD doesn't forget about her in the later books: In Ruey, for example, she's portrayed as a keen hockey player who isn't keen on trying lacrosse (unlike most of her classmates), and in New Mistress she's voted one of the form's officers.

The bit about Rosamund having "nicer" ideas because of her mother having been a housemaid grated rather, but was probably quite likely. If she'd been in service in a big house, she would probably have been under severe discipline from the housekeeper, and coarseness and vulgarity would definitely have been frowned on. Servants did often try to model themselves on what they perceived their masters to be.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:10 pm ]
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The idea that Rosamund (and Biddy) had better manners than other working-class people because their mothers had been in service grated on me a lot. It may have been true in terms of things like knowing what knife and fork to use; but what gets me is the way that EBD links Joan's social background to her swearing and her reluctance to wash her face in the evenings and things like that. And what was with Hilda wanting to check out Joan's background - she says something about wishing Madge could do it. I could understand the school wanting references from a bank to make sure that parents could pay the fees, and from previous schools regarding behaviour etc, but I don't think there's any mention elsewhere of looking into family background.

Mary-Lou irritates me in this book as well, going on at Jack Maynard about how she thinks Joan is common - and then Jack encourages her, instead of telling her to mind her own business! Although no-one else really seems concerned about the fact that Joan isn't fitting in.

IIRC Simone actually asked if everyone could have a day off because she'd had a baby. Maybe all the Old Girls should've tried that :lol: .

On the plus side, I do really like Ros, and at least this book's a bit different - no-one is a long-lost relative of an Old Girl or anything like that!

Author:  JS [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:24 pm ]
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I always liked this book and liked Rosamund, although a lot of the snobbishness went over my head as a child. I suppose that (like many other CS readers) Ros's background was a lot closer to mine than your typical middle/upper class boarding school pupil (not that this always made for more enjoyment - I never liked Mary, Mungo and Midge - set in a high-rise - much!)

I agree (with an adult's perspective) with what others have said about the snobbishness over Joan, although she was rather awful, whichever class she was. For example, trying to blackmail Ros (on class terms!), being rude to Elinor, wearing 'adult' frocks and make-up would have been frowned on at the CS (and were!) even when the posh girls did them (cf Margot blackmailing Ted)

I suppose what I'm realising as I write this was that the class thing was a new way for EBD to explore many of her usual themes about friendship and what you might call universal values.

And, as a by the by, EBD's ideas of poverty didn't really chime with mine. I've just been reading New House and I see that when Margot Venables was in Australia, staying with Daisy's old nurse, even though there wasn't much money about and Margot earned a little by teaching French and music, they still had a woman 'who came in to do the work' and look after Primula into the bargain. Possibly Ros is just about the only character whose family didn't have 'help'. Okay, and Biddy.

Author:  Jennie [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:39 pm ]
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I like Rosamund as a character, and found her doubts and worries realistic, but I do honestly feel that this is the most snobbish book in the series.

The reason for Rosamund's quick assimilation was based on a false premise, I felt, but the way OOAO interfered in Joan's business was too much. And Jack ought to have known better than to give the advice he did. It was none of his business and he ought to have told OOAO to leave well alone.

I think that EBD got more snobbish as she aged, and adopted a double standard, though of course that was there from the start, with Grizel. Whatever Grizel did was wrong, and was severely criticised, though Jo's many runnings -off were explained away and excused. So with Joan. After her first disastrous term, she settled down and worked hard, but is never given any credit for it, and is always described as 'cheap' or cheaply pretty', and is never praised for her honesty and lack of pretence, as when she is quite candid about her parents being able to pay for her training, but after that, she will have to work and earn her own living, because her younger sister has to be educated.

Until this book, I had always thought that EBD's real snobbery was confined to the La Rochelle books, but no, I was wrong there.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:10 pm ]
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The most interesting bit of this one for me is EBD's attempt to divide Ros Lilley's 'deserving', respectable aspirant, unpretentious working-class (metal teapot at kitchen table, well-tended front garden, insistence on good manners learned by ex-servant mother) off from Joan Baker's slightly disreputable, flashy, sexually-knowing, grubby, gobby, eating-in-the-street, 'common' working class.

I know the famous Viv Nicholson ('Spend, spend, spend!') pools win wasn't till 1961, so EBD couldn't have been thinking of it for Joan's family's pools win - but presumably there were other well-known examples of the pools landing a working-class family in sudden money, with the implication they won't know how to handle it - Joan's sister breaking off her engagement, and the suggestion it will be spent in no time. Interesting that it's 'undeserved' unearned money, unlike, say, Diana Skelton's father, who makes his fortune, and is respected by the CS staff to some extent for doing so, even though they conceal Diana's background from the girls.

I agree with other people above that the fact that it's grating that the dainty manners of the CS's two working-class girls Ros and Biddy are explained by their mothers having picked them up while in service. Is there no other way in EBD's universe for a working-class person to have encountered 'good' manners? Also - someone with more knowledge of the period, help! - Ros, like Reg Entwhistle, is at an inferior school, having missed out on grammar school/high school in the 11-plus due to illness - is this a realistic scenario? If you were ill and missed the exam, you didn't get the chance to sit it ever, and were consigned to a less academic school, with no chance of 'bettering yourself' academically?

I also find it a bit disingenuous that no CS girl (bar either Con or Len noting Ros using bad grammar once on her first day) is shown as noticing anything lower-class about Ros. Presumably, this is supposed to demonstrate how nice and unsnobbish the CS girls are, which is fair enough, but in reality a girl like Ros would have stuck out a mile at an expensive Swiss boarding school. There's more to the class system than dainty manners and losing your Hampshire accent. When I was at Oxford in the 1990s, I was still certainly hearing 'NQOC' (Not Quite Our Class) being bandied about...

Author:  Jennie [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:28 pm ]
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As far as missing one's chance goes, Sunglass, If you failed your 11+ in Nottinghamshire, well, at the High School I attended, it was possible to transfer to High School at 12+, 13+ and 14+, but not to move from a secondary modern at 15+ because of the 'O' Level work. Again, people were accepted at the start of the 6th Form, but transfers in had to be from other Grammar/High Schools durng the fifth form and Upper Sixth.

Author:  ibarhis [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:42 pm ]
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Iirc, there is a bit in Lark Rise to Candleford (the original book which I haven't read for years) about the author having better manners and standards etc than her contemporaries because her mother had been in service, and because there were only two children in the family when she was young. I don't remember the exact quote but I'm sure it's there.

There are other examples in fiction but that one is in an autobiography so probably counts for more!

On the "having a woman in to help" point, my grandmother, who was a railwayman's wife with four children, apparently had someone come in to help with the heavy work in the 1920s. In an age before washing machines and vacuum cleaners it was extremely common I believe.

Author:  Tor [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:10 pm ]
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Does Ros get a scholarship handed to her by the Gays? Or have I confused that with another book? It seems to me that scholarships get awarded in a very ad hoc manner that wouldn't withstand any kind of external audit! No exams/requirements of excellence/open competition at all.

Ros gets hers for being a representative of the 'deserving poor', as far as I remember. If it was a Gay family thing, I wonder of it would have ever crossed Tom's mind (erm... oviously I mean *EBD's* mind :oops:) to put a 'really' working class girl forward (assuming she ever met the girls, working mostly with boys), or just discounted the possibility of their moving in a sphere somewhat above themselves.

I liked this book, but when I first read it as a child it also shattered my fantasy of belonging in the CS world. I was more of a Ros Lilley than a Joan Baker (though I've always had my moments :twisted: ), but I'd have always been aware of the latent snobbishness in the school that became apparent in that book. As someone who definitely has two accents (one for work, one for parental home) as a result of both a desire to 'fit in' but also having direct experience of how class bias really does pervade society still, I'd have definitely have toed the line and outwardly come over all CS (like Ros Lilley) but have despised them all internally!!!!

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:20 pm ]
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I think that the snobbery is evident and even worse in some of the other books. There are two comments that really annoy me. One is when Polly and Lalla Winterton say that they couldn't go to the village school because all they'd've learnt would've been to speak with a Yorkshire accent - pretty rich coming from two people who are so poorly educated that the end up being put in forms with people much younger than themselves. The other one is Joey's comment in Rescue about how Reg's intelligence must come from his father, who came from an impoverished middle class family, rather than his mother, who married above herself!

Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:57 pm ]
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Where exactly does the text attribute Mrs. Lilley's manners to her time as a servant? I don't see this at all. Rather, I think EBD was doing her best to have a foil for Joan who would show that lower class does NOT equate with "cheap," let alone being a nasty bully and "the bane of more parents than the Lilleys." Thus, Rosamund was given a background even lower class than Joan's -- at least in Joan's opinion, given her repeated sneers about "only a servant" vs. "a young lady in a shop."

It is true that EBD does have a certain understanding of appropriate behavior, but it isn't clear to me that it is class-based rather than reflecting contemporary mores. I find it hard to believe that 1950s England was so different from 1950s America that a fair number of "average" parents didn't demand manners and become concerned if their offspring got involved with the likes of Vic Coles' set. Not that there wouldn't also have been some reverse snobbism on the order of Joan's accusations of "sucking up to the rector's wife," "thinking she's someone," etc. -- still goes on today, e.g. in schools in which peer pressure demands at least a camouflage of ignorance.

Jack's attempt to make Mary-Lou less shocked by Joan's interest in boys aside, we do get what EBD meant to say about class in Joey's speech:
Quote:
When God chose a Mother for His Son, He didn't choose a queen or even a great lady, but a village girl who was engaged to the village Carpenter. And our Blessed Lord's friends were all working men—unless Judas wasn't. I'm not sure about that. But that didn't hinder them from being gentlemen or Our Lady from being the greatest Lady in the world. After that, how could any human being put on airs and be unkind to other people because they came from working-class families. Oh, no, my lamb! You need never be afraid of that sort of thing here."

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:44 pm ]
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Kathy_S wrote:
Where exactly does the text attribute Mrs. Lilley's manners to her time as a servant? I don't see this at all. Rather, I think EBD was doing her best to have a foil for Joan who would show that lower class does NOT equate with "cheap," let alone being a nasty bully and "the bane of more parents than the Lilleys." Thus, Rosamund was given a background even lower class than Joan's -- at least in Joan's opinion, given her repeated sneers about "only a servant" vs. "a young lady in a shop."


We are told several times about Mrs Lilley being a servant and strict on good manners, but the relevant bit is in her first letter to Rosamund:

Quote:
Be a good girl and try to please your teachers and remember your manners. My Miss Rosamund that you are called after used to say anyone could be a lady if she thought and acted in a ladylike manner and that is what I have tried to teach you, all of you.


When you add it to the way Rosamund's home and parents are depicted - down to the home-made Leafy cake - it adds up to classic 'know-your-place and respect your betters' /'deserving' working class, at ease with their place in society, no class anger or resentment, no apparent desire for change, whereas Joan's parents are implicitly less respectable - mother ex-shopgirl, father spending money the pools, allowing Joan's bad behaviour, flighty daughter who ditches her fiance when they win the money, the suggestion they will blow all the money on being flash and not save. 'Buying all new', which is what Mrs Lilley says disapproving of them in her letter, is a classic non-middle-class marker.

We can assume that, in the unlikely event that the Lilleys ever came to visit Ros at school, they would be dressed quietly and respectably, and would know how to behave, but that the Baker parents might drip with nouveau riche pretensions and class anxiety.

I mean, Kathy_S is entirely right when she says that the bit about the apostles being working men etc etc is what EBD means to say, but I think her own class anxieties are obvious from the representations of Ros and Joan.

Author:  Tara [ Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:44 pm ]
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To return to Sunglass's question:
Sunglass wrote:
Ros, like Reg Entwhistle, is at an inferior school, having missed out on grammar school/high school in the 11-plus due to illness - is this a realistic scenario? If you were ill and missed the exam, you didn't get the chance to sit it ever, and were consigned to a less academic school, with no chance of 'bettering yourself' academically?

Exactly that happened to my father, who was very bright. Must have been about 1925, so early CS. There were two opportunities to try the 11+. The first time, Dad had St Vitus' Dance (where, btw, did all those illnesses go? 'Brain fever' was common as well - and was the reason why my friend's mum couldn't sit the exam). The second year, he was a day too old, and not allowed to try. He went to the Sec. Mod. and was made Head Boy because of his academic achievement, but couldn't transfer and spent his life feeling academically inferior.
By 1956, when Problem was published, you could certainly transfer to Grammar School for the Sixth Form, though very few did. For most people, the 11+ was a self-fulfilling prophecy (says this staunch supporter of the Comprehensive ideal!)

Author:  Mona [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:44 am ]
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Quote:
The first time, Dad had St Vitus' Dance (where, btw, did all those illnesses go?

St Vitus Dance was often associated with rheumatic fever, the incidence of which has declined dramatically since the introduction of antibiotics to treat streptococcal illnesses.

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:51 am ]
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I was due to take the 11 plus in 1960 but was ill in bed. A few weeks later I was again ill, a knock came at the door and it was the local headmistress. She told my mother that the repeat exam was the next day, sonething she should not have done as it was secret and that I should be sent to school even if dying, or words to that extent. I was the only one to take the exam that day . I passed thank heaven.

Jan

Author:  Tor [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:37 am ]
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I don't think I remember the stuff about the apostles being working men etc in a speech from Joey. I haven't re-read my copy (paperback) recently, so it could be my own forgetfulness, but was it cut from the pb?

Any way, seconding Sunglass here with EBDs well-meaning but unavoidable class anxiety. Possibly also enhanced by my own class anxiety :oops: :roll: ?!!

As for other examples of snobbery, Alison, I quite agree there are earlier examples. But this was the first I noticed, probably because I didn't read in order, but also because I think it made more of an impact focussing on a working-class character, that I identified with. Earlier, somewhat snobbish remarks rather passed me by if they were directed at peripheral characters. And of course, when I read them as a girl, I hadn't the CBB to help deconstruct the plot etc :lol:

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:17 am ]
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I think that EBD probably had considerable "class anxiety" of her own, probably exacerbated by the fact that her dad left her mum and ran off with another woman :roll: . I think I remember reading that she was always going on about her father (or was it her grandfather?) being a naval officer and getting upset when people didn't believe her, and she was from more of a lower middle class family than some of the other GO writers who were from "posher" backgrounds.

Personally I tend to go down the "proud to be common" route :lol: :lol: , but I can imagine that it must be very hard if you're the only person from your background in a particular organisation, especially at 14 or 15 when most people are keen to fit in.

Author:  Ela [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:25 pm ]
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I'm just reading the transcript (HB) version of "Problem" at present and am interested by a couple of inconsistencies. When Joan goes to Worthing for the weekend, it's stated in the text that she's staying with her mother's parents: later, when her grandfather writes to Miss Annersley about a vacancy for Joan, it appears that he lives in Worthing, but is surnamed Baker - which would make him the paternal grandfather. Obviously his name is Baker to point the fact for the reader, but EBD could have made him Joan's father's father without any difficulty.

Secondly, why does Joan's grandfather, not father, write to the school, when it's her father who has won the Pools and got the cash?

Lastly, not an inconsistency, but several people have pointed out the fact that Miss Annersley doesn't want to accept Mr Baker's unnamed granddaughter without it being checked out. I've noticed that in a couple of the books set near this time (Richenda and Theodora), that it's mentioned that the Headmistress interviews most, if not all, the parents: Professor Fry goes to see her in London before entering Richenda for the CS, and in Theodora, it's mentioned in passing that Miss A. is in Berne (I think) to interview prospective parents. So it's not inconsistent that they would want to know more about Mr Baker before accepting Joan.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:16 pm ]
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Variations on 'anyone can be a lady' were quoted at me from so many different quarters as a girl that it's not something I'd have noticed particularly. It still seems an enormous jump to me, to go from this and Mrs. Lilley's apparent affection for "Miss Rosamund" to EBD deciding that Mrs. L's family's respect for each other and good manners were entirely due to Mrs. Lilley's education as a servant. (Q: Would she have been hired if she didn't already have them?)

The image I'm getting from the board is that, although EBD meant to show her characters (except for Joan and selected other "bad girls," e.g. Thekla) as free from snobbishness, persons sensitized to "class anxieties" now perceive the opposite. It's rather like Uncle Tom's Cabin, a novel that was more effective than any number of tracts in rousing abolitionist feeling prior to the American Civil War, but when read in a more modern light -- well, to call someone an "Uncle Tom" is to accuse them of "sucking up" by fitting into a stereotype acceptable to those in power -- or, in some situations, by assuming an extreme "Yes, Massa" caricature. Similarly, while EBD probably meant Problem to show that class isn't of fundamental importance, the posts here seem to be accusing Rosamund's family of betraying their class by being the British equivalent of Uncle Toms.

However, I remain far more comfortable with Rosamund's family than with early Joan and her need to find people to look down on/exert power over. Of course part of my reaction to the overall climate of the book probably reflects the ethos in which I grew up, in which advancement through education (Rosamund, her sister Charmian) was a virtue, while ostentation and especially being ashamed of your roots (in the sense of Joan's family high-hatting their former neighbors) were deadly sins.

Author:  Ela [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:45 pm ]
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EBD is very down on vulgarity, by whomsoever expressed - whether this is Joan's mindset and behaviour, or Betty Wynne-Davies' and her compadres in Goes To It with their powder and scarlet lipstick, and some of Betty's comments about (IIRC) Simone's forthcoming marriage. I seem to remember someone being snubbed in Prefects when discussing Len's potential engagement - the emphasis being that it is vulgar to discuss such a personal matter as a thing for gossip.

I get the impression from Mrs Lilley in Problem that she would have been rather strict, and keen for Rosamund to do well, whatever her former employment had been. Reminds me of my grandmother, in fact.

Author:  claire [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:06 pm ]
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Maybe both Joan's parents came from Worthing and although she was staying with one set of grandparents the other grandfather wrote

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:20 pm ]
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I certainly don't think the Lilleys are in any sense Uncle Toms. They seem entirely likeable and genuinely grounded people, and some of the most attractive characters in the series. I think the class anxiety is all EBD's own, and that it leaks over unintentionally into her representations of two different kinds of working-class girl.

From what I gather to have been the case about her own less than entirely 'respectable' background - father absconded, and Catholic conversion of a lower-middle-class person would have brought her into uncomfortable proximity with 'bog Irish' stereotypes - it's probably not that surprising.

I think that while EBD sets out to show her 'good' CS girls as unsnobbish (which she does), that one of the probably unintentional subtexts of the novel is that she's trying to mark off an 'ideal' working class girl who fits in at the CS from a cheap/flashy/vulgar one who never really does. It's difficult for us (now that Tony Blair has declared us all middle-class! Thanks, Tony, some of us aren't actually hankering for that!) to think our way back into the much more stratified class system of England in the 1950s, but realistically, there would have been huge social gulfs between Ros and, say, Len Maynard - in speech, vocab, manners, education, expectations - and there would have been relatively little chance that the daughter of a ex-servant and a gardener, whose home doesn't have a bathroom, would come into close contact with the daughter of an upper-middle class novelist and a doctor/San director who is himself from the landed gentry (Pretty Maids et al), who have lived in a selection of enormous, gorgeous old houses.

But EBD chooses to set aside realism to some extent and write Ros as a 1950s middle-class dream of a 'deserving' working-class girl - not to denigrate Ros herself in any way, but it's quite unlikely that she wouldn't have stuck out a mile in speech and manners at the CS, even if she were a less unpleasant character than Joan (who is at times a kind of caricature of the 'flash'/'vulgar' working class.)

So EBD gets round this (as she does with Biddy O'Ryan, another maid's child) by having Mrs Lilley teach her family middle-class manners, so she fits in at the CS almost immediately. And on the other hand, we're set up to dislike Joan who is not only a petty blackmailer, but foul-mouthed, irreligious, social climbing and generally nasty, at least at the start - and she's never quite let into the fold. She gets to stay 'cheaply pretty' and a bit of a misfit till the end of her schooldays.

Author:  Ela [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:25 pm ]
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I wonder how one can be "cheaply pretty" as opposed to being simply "pretty". If it's an obvious attraction, perhaps what EBD is saying is that Joan has It!

Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:29 pm ]
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Oh, I don't know. It's all subjective of course, but I think there is a kind of "flashy" prettiness - especially when you can see it won't wear wel, as opposed to other kinds. I haven't expressed it very well, but I do recognise what EBD means.

Author:  Mel [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:45 pm ]
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EBD liked 'dainty' prettiness, whereas Joan might have coarser features, but the regulation large eyes, long lashes, full lips etc. I agree that EBD is running round in circles here, trying to make out that chlaet girls aren't snobbish, but they do draw the line. Joan is as nasty as any of the 'bad' characters Thekla, Emerence, early Cornelia, but she goes 'over the line' in vulgarity and swearing. I quite enjoy reading about the girls being shaken up by Joan, especially when she calls Matey 'old frozen limit.' I did get the impresion that the Lilleys were deserving poor and had been given their edge by working for the gentry. I too wonder why Joan stayed, as she never fitted in or made a friend. In the later books her only crime is having a perm. I can't believe that in all the years, she was the only girl/mistress to have permed hair. In the 1940s they were all at it (dare I say, even the Queen).

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:50 pm ]
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It does say, somewhere, of Joan that "after having made an appallingly bad beginning two terms previously, she had turned right round and was working hard", or words to that effect. So maybe she settles in, even if she does keep to her perm....

Author:  Tara [ Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:42 pm ]
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And EBD is one of the few writers who does include 'real' working-class people at all. Others (Angela Brazil, for example) try to deal with the same subject, but the apparently inferior pupil turns out to be the daughter of an earl or something - you get the idea! Sophie Hamel's father does run a draper's shop, Biddy's is a lady's maid, both Ros and Joyce do come from working-class backgrounds. It all sounds very strange to us, of course, but EBD was doing her best within the restrictions of her era (and of course everything everyone has said about her own background and class anxieties is true). The very longevity of her writing life works against her in that way, and because her thinking is so modern in so many ways, the anachronisms stick out. She genuinely was very forward-thinking and liberal for her era in all sorts of areas.

Author:  jennifer [ Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:46 am ]
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I find the class stuff in Problems and other books very interesting.

Being Canadian, I find it a bit hard to really understand some of the class stuff. There are still classes and class consciousness in Canada, but it's a very different sort than the classic British style, where your accent seems to tell everyone exactly what your place is in society, and I think that there has traditionally been more mobility too - class is more financial that social, in some ways.

The view of the 'deserving poor' does come through here, though. Rosamund's family is clean, thrifty, respectful, temperate, hardworking and properly grateful/respectful to their betters. Not the right sort of people, but the kind who are worthy of help. It's like EBD's portrayal of peasants - superstitious, not very bright, but hardworking and clean and respectful and fawningly worshipful of their employers.

You can see EBD is trying to be egalitarian and open minded in this book, and in other places, but the subtle prejudices and the place of different classes in society shines through, particularly when read now.

Author:  tiernsee [ Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:48 am ]
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I really felt sorry for Joan when she was lambasted about eavesdropping - as if this was the worst sin in the world! I'm sure there have been other occasions when the "nicer" Chalet School girls overheard things they shouldn't and weren't pilloried in quite the same way!
Overall I enjoyed this book, not one of the classics, but definitely a good Swiss one.

Author:  Tor [ Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:00 am ]
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Quote:
ery different sort than the classic British style, where your accent seems to tell everyone exactly what your place is in society


and

Quote:
You can see EBD is trying to be egalitarian and open minded in this book, and in other places, but the subtle prejudices and the place of different classes in society shines through, particularly when read now.


I think that sums up British/EBD class recognition/anxieties very well. All through the CS nice, well meaning working class characters are met. Even in School at we meet the jovial, kind but common ?yorkshire?man who later proposes to Madge. Madge quickly realises he is nice, but there is a moment or two of coldness at his common manners, and this isn't seen as being wrong, jsut that Madge "sees past" it. It's a more enlightened approach than refusing to even engage in conversation with him (as maybe a Thekla-tpyewould do), but not exactly uplifting!

Ros is one of the nicest characters in the swiss books, and (along with Jo Scott) I am always sad she slips into the background somewhat. But she is only really allowed to be such a paragon because, it is implied, her manners etc (and here read accent, I don't recall her being pulled up for accent, which given EBDs track record with Biddy etc and slang, she'd be allowed to speak in anything other than RP) are already that of the middle class ideal.

In the UK this is still very much the case. People do, even if they are well meaning and would be horrified to be called a snob, respond to someone's accent with certain stereotypic imagery which must then be overcome (this also works against say a really toffish accent that leads to assumptions of dimwittedness!). But if you have a strong cockney accent, say, then you are going to have to work a little bit harder than someone with more um, BBC radio 4 english, to be recognized as intelligent or knowledgeable. That is partly because of the association of being educated with being middle-class, of which EBD was writing about.

Nowadays, there is a backlash against this (as ALison says ' proud to be common') But really, this kind of backlash - and really Kathy's point about Uncle tom's Cabin probably is appropriate - is against the idea that you have to have to adopt the manners and mores of a different group of people to be successful and change your lot in life. I think that is what I am responding too on a personal level in Problem. On a non-personal level, it is really interesting to see how EBD works through it all herself in her books. Rather realistic really!

Author:  Jennie [ Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm afraid that Estuary English doesn't work for me, with its slurred vowels and missing consonants, but I'm partially deaf, and my left ear hears less than my right ear, so I find a lot of accents difficult, especially if spoken quietly into my left ear. Really, what I need is to have people stand in front of me and speak slowly and clearly.

This is also complicated by the fact that I have a decoding problem, which means that I can hear that someone is speaking, but can't make sense of the sounds. Apparently this is a part of the nerve damage caused by Meniere's Disease, and no hearing aid will cure it.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 

I suspect that a lot of "I'm not a snob, but ..." went on at the CS. To be fair, a lot of it would've stemmed from people's upbringings. Mary-Lou's comments to Jack about Joan grate on me, but the impression given at the beginning of Three Go is that - although the Trelawneys were hardly the lords of the manor and IIRC didn't even own the house they lived in - Mrs Trelawney senior considered the family to be a cut above everyone else in the neighbourhood and that Mary-Lou was effectively banned from associating with the "village children" even though it meant that she had no friends of her own age.

If people heard that sort of talk at home, and went to a school where they only mixed with other people of their own social class, then it was probably no wonder that they looked down on Joan.

Author:  Ela [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Tor wrote:
...[Ros] is only really allowed to be such a paragon because, it is implied, her manners etc (and here read accent, I don't recall her being pulled up for accent, which given EBDs track record with Biddy etc and slang, she'd be allowed to speak in anything other than RP) are already that of the middle class ideal...

There's one bit, that I can think of, where Ros says
Quote:
Rosamund looked round the pretty room. "Oh, awfully. What piles of books! Can we have a lend of them when we like?"

The Maynards looked at each other. On the whole, they were inclined to like Rosamund, but she did say some awfully queer things. They had never heard that particular piece of bad grammar before and while they wanted to keep her out of trouble with the prefects and mistresses, they hardly liked to correct her English. Len gave it up. It was beyond her.

but that's about the only place, apart from when Joan has arrived, and notes that Ros is losing her slight Hampshire accent.

Incidentally (and I'm sorry if I'm spreeing) I thought it was so unlikely that Miss Wilmot would know all the historical stuff she says to the girls when they visit Basle - she teaches maths! I suppose she might have read up about the place beforehand, but I would think it more realistic if she'd had recourse to a guide book from time to time (though she does occasionally say that they need Miss O'Ryan there, because she knows much more about the place). These Chalet School mistresses need to be well-versed in history and geography of their adopted country, don't they?

Author:  JayB [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

Jennie said:
Quote:
[Joan] is never praised for her honesty and lack of pretence, as when she is quite candid about her parents being able to pay for her training, but after that, she will have to work and earn her own living, because her younger sister has to be educated.


Thereby showing that she had in fact taken on board CS values to a considerable extent: the Joan who first came to the school would never have though it desirable that her young sister be educated, or thought it necessary to contribute towards it herself.

Ela said:
Quote:
why does Joan's grandfather, not father, write to the school, when it's her father who has won the Pools and got the cash?


Maybe Joan's father, if left to himself, wouldn't have done anything about the girls' education, so Mr Baker senior decided to take the initiative to try to shove things along.

His letter is courteous, properly spelled and punctuated and uses a fairly extensive vocabulary, if a bit old fashioned in style. One gets the impression of a man who didn't have very much formal education but is self taught, knows the importance of education, likes things to be done correctly, and is perhaps quite appalled at the way his granddaughter is turning out and sees an opportunity to do something about it.

In fact, Herbert William Baker's letter raises a whole lot of questions about Baker family dynamics. Joan's vulgarity clearly doesn't come from that side of the family. Is it her mother at fault, for not being more strict with her? Is Joan's father a weak man, under the thumb of his wife and his father? Does Herbert disapprove of his daughter in law, Joan's mother?

Author:  Tor [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 

Interesting, JayB! In fact you could rewrite the story of Joan as a typical EBD story line from her point-of-view...

Starting in Worthing, with Joan visiting her maternal grandparents and being forced to pay an obligatory visit to the paternal grandparents who live close by. Cut to Mr Baker snr being horrified at the way young Joan has turned out, and deciding to do something about it.... The pools win being a real opportunity to speak some home truths to his errant son, and suggest he turn the familys' fortunes around.

Here, of course, Joan decides to be rebellious and 'show' her grandfather that he can't just ride rough-shod over her own values and send her to some boarding school.

Except, of course, Joan is quite keen to go to the CS and is a much nastier type of girl. But I like the idea of strict, self educated grand-parents in Worthing, that were perhaps so strict with their own offspring that Joan's parents decided to be more lenient with their own.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm never entirely sure how we're meant to understand Hilda and Bill's rather perturbed response to Joan's grandfather's letter? As others have said, it's very formal and written in copperplate and suggests none of Joan's vulgarity - it doesn't even have the minor spelling errors and slightly lower-class vocab of Ros's first letter home - so why does Hilda immediately say she's 'bothered' and Bill, after reading it through twice, exclsim 'Who on earth is he?' (I know he's asking them to take Joan late, but there seems to be more to it than that, especially when they think about asking Madge to 'do something' about it... and surely the school is used to getting applications for places from the odd person with no previous connection to the CS?)

Is it that the letter is unusually formal and stands out as a bit weird/trying too hard? Is it that enclosing a stamped addressed envelope suggests a lack of sophistication, as though he won't get a reply unless he prepays for it? Is there information missing that would normally be included in a letter by a parent enquiring about a place for their daughter, or is he over-explaining? Is it the bit about 'changed circumstances' meaning that the girls need a better education - does this translate into 'very nouveau riche' for Bill and Hilda? Is there something else he's doing wrong? Surely his name can't stand out as particularly proletarian? If it's only that they prefer to interview parents in advance, why not just say so?

I've read the response to this letter as pure snobbery in the past, but it occurs to me that if this is the case, I don't actually know how it is exactly that anyone reading it would realise the sender was not socially OK...

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

I assume that it's the bit about family circumstances having changed and that making it possible for Joan to attend a better school than she's done previously that does it. Possibly the fact that he says that Joan knows someone else who's joined the school recently also flags up her background, as Hilda mentions that Ros was the only new girl at the start of the term.

In that case it was basically snobbery. Plenty of people join the school mid-term at short notice because of changes in personal circumstances - parents being ill or having to go abroad. They can't all have come with a reference from a parent/Old Girl/former mistress/San doctor.

Author:  Ela [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

I won't quote the whole of Sunglass' post, but I think their reaction is quite understandable. It's two weeks into the summer term, a strange time for anyone to be enquiring about a place at the school for their grand-daughter (the school must have known about Rosamund from the Gays), particularly for that very term. They would have been far less surprised had he asked about details for the autumn term, I think. They're also concerned, too, that if they don't accept the girl now - whoever she may be - that she will be idling at home, school-less. Perhaps the "changed circumstances" might have been interpreted as "expelled". Understandably the two Heads would be unwilling to accept a girl if she was likely to be too disruptive or unredeemably bad!

As I mentioned in a previous post, in several of the Swiss books it's stated that Miss Annersley likes to interview prospective parents before accepting their children, and so they are perturbed by the letter because it's not from someone they know, have heard of, or have interviewed, and because it's term-time, neither of them can spare the time to interview him. If we assume that the school accepted its pupils on the basis of personal recommendation from friends or former pupils, or by interview when the family wasn't known to them, then making an exception would be quite a change, and something to be considered carefully.

Author:  Jennie [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mr. Baker Snr.'s letter is in fact a typical product of an education in the schools of the early 20th Century, where the emphasis was on the Three Rs, including copperplate handwriting. Their school lives may have been shorter, but pupils were well grounded in what they were taught.

Author:  JayB [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Is there information missing that would normally be included in a letter by a parent enquiring about a place for their daughter, or is he over-explaining?


Mr Baker doesn't tell them his granddaughter's name, age, level of education or previous school. I should think those would all be things they'd need to know before they could decide whether to take her. Is there room for her in the appropriate form for her age? Will she need a lot of coaching? Will it be easy to find a dormitory space for her with girls near her own age? And so on.

They'd also want to know about any health issues. He also isn't clear about who is Joan's legal guardian; they're wasting their time writing to him to say they'll accept Joan if it then turns out he has no authority to send her.

There were similar concerns in Shocks, when they had Mr Hope's telegram announcing Emerence's imminent arrival; they weren't keen to take her on so little information, and one of the first things Hilda wanted to know was who was Emerence's guardian in England.

Author:  Maeve [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think, as some others have said, EBD definitely meant well here. I like how Joan not only continues to figure quite large in the series, but we see her becoming more confident and realistic (her plans for her employment) and we see her being brave (in Richenda when, although she is scared of thunderstorms, she helps carry a number of girls across the flooded bridge).

It's also in Richenda that we see that title character be horribly condescending, but I've always read those parts as being much more as criticisms of Richenda and not Joan. First there's,
Quote:
“Oh, just mooch about for the time being until the gong sounds for Frühstück,” Joan Baker butted in to say.
“I see. Thank you,” Richenda replied, the old coldness back in her voice and manner. She was a fastidious young woman and so far she had no liking for this girl with her assured, rather sophisticated air and her cheaply pretty face.
Joan flushed...
and then, a little bit later,
Quote:
Joan was a good deal of an enigma to Richenda. She showed a superficial cleverness at times, but as soon as she was asked to delve deeper, she broke down. Her tastes struck the other girls as crude and even vulgar at times, and she used words and phrases that made Richenda regard her with scorn. It was the more surprising because Rosamund Lilley said she had come from the same school and Rosamund was one with the rest of them in such matters.

Yes, Joan is the "enigma" and the odd one out, unlike Rosamund, but EBD is also criticizing Richenda here (an otherwise likeable character) - at least, that's how I've always read it.

Author:  LizzieC [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

Sunglass wrote:
I'm never entirely sure how we're meant to understand Hilda and Bill's rather perturbed response to Joan's grandfather's letter?


I always feel it's rather mean of them (or another member of staff?) to mention something along the lines of having enough problems with Rosamund, which I've always felt was a bit rich really. Most new girls (at least of those EBD focused on) going in to the form Rosamund was placed in can barely speak any of the two other languages and seem surprised and unprepared for the tri-lingualism every time (does no one read the pros? :roll:), yet it's this that is mentioned when Joan's entry is being discussed as being a particular problem with Ros. I always felt it was a rather unnecessary getting-at of her there.

Author:  Mel [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think it was a GO theme that a working class girl would be a problem or a challenge or a bit of an experiment.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

In Strangers at the Abbey, Rykie isn't working class, but she wears make up and is like Joan in various other ways, and the way the Abbey girls react is awful! She's only young and is nervous about being sent to stay with strangers (an aunt and cousins whom she hasn't met before), and almost the first thing they do is tell her that she'll have to wash her face before she meets her aunt. When she points out that her elder sister wears make up, they tell her that her sister's setting her a bad example.

I read the comments in Richenda as portraying Richenda herself in a bad light - Joan is clearly upset by them - but they also make it clear that Joan still doesn't fit in, whereas Rosamund does. Even worse, EBD follows it up by saying that Richenda is "too well-bred" to say anything in response to Rosamund's comment about being "behind" because of having gone to "a government school" - what's well-bred about being so nasty to poor Joan?!

Just to compare Joan's experience with that of Yseult (having just been reading the New Mistress thread), although Mary-Lou's attitude towards Joan is annoying, at least she recognises that Joan is having problems settling in and tries to help her by getting her involved in tennis. No-one does anything like that for Yseult - when she suggests putting on a play, the other giirls hijack her idea and say that Con should write it :( .

Author:  Abi [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mel wrote:
I think it was a GO theme that a working class girl would be a problem or a challenge or a bit of an experiment.


I also think in a way it was probably true. If all the rest of the girls are middle class, and a large proportion of them upper middle class, it's inevitable that someone from a very different background will have problems fitting in. Even today, Joan would quite likely have ended up a victim of bullying just for being 'different'. Especially as a lot of the leaders in the school like the Maynards, ML, the Russells etc don't really seem to come into contact with working class people that much.

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

'Problem' examines the role education and intelligence plays in social mobility. Even today, schools foster middle class values in the children they teach. I work in a disadvantaged school where many of the students come from severely disfunctional backgrounds. In order to break the cycle of teenage pregnancy, smoking, drinking etc, we do everything in our power to keep them in education for as long as possible. Over half of our students go on to further education and training while about 20% go directly on to higher education.
I think EBD paints a very realistic picture of these two girls, Ros and Joan. Ros is, quite simply, refined by nature. She very quickly absorbs the atmosphere of the Chalet School and is accepted as one of their own. Little differences in speech and accent are not regarded as particularly significant. Joan, on the other hand, is coarse in word and deed and would have been preceived as a serious threat to the school ethos.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I haven't read through the posts so I hope I'm not about to repeat someone else's point. I've just finished re reading Problem from the fabulous forum. Godbless the people who reproduced the books there.

I thought the end of Problem was well handled. I did have a slight problem with Joan's overburdoned sense of guilt about the eavesdropping. She seems to go from out and out defiance about her reason for running away to almost hysterical guilt about it. I don't know if I, in the same circumstances, could have passed on my way if I heard my name being bandied about in ML's clarian tones.
Miss A is very kind to Joan when she finally gets her to admit what had caused the upset in the Carey's house, and while to a modern ear, much of what is said comes across a little patronising, by and large Joan is treated with sympathy and understanding. So I have to ask, why then, in later books, is she so often disparaged? She never seems to be given credit for anything she does, and is never fully integrated into the student body.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Yes, it's so rare that a girl who's actually done the whole 'breaking down in the study and genuinely promising amends' thing not to be more or less integrated as a 'real' CS girl afterwards. I have to say that I continue to read it as EBD's own, probably unconscious, class prejudice leaking into the series. If you look at the reasons that are given later in the series for why Joan has never fully belonged - 'cheapness', heredity, 'bad' home environment - there's a measurable class edge, as there is to her 'unsuitable' behaviour when she first arrives at the CS (in contrast to Ros Lilley, who is always essentially psychologically middle-class, despite coming from the same social level, and only needs to lose some of her bad grammar and accent).

Lots of other initial misfits suffer from poor parenting/home environments - Eustacia, Richenda, Emerence, Ted etc - but only in Joan's case is the damage seen as in some way ineradicable.

I think it's a blind spot with EBD, and must have something to do with her own life experience - it's one I'm sorry for, as I have a soft spot for Joan.

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

All this being so, why do you think EBD flirted with a Joan type in the first place? It seems almost a cruel thing to do, rather like taking an orphan into your home and then studiously disapproving of it.

Author:  Cel [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that EBD allowing Joan to basically stay the same character, even after her capitulation in the study and general settling down, is in fact a lot less patronising than if she had the usual overnight transformation into 'a true Chalet girl at last' that tends to follow these scenes. The fact that Joan remains who she is, rubbing along fairly well at the School and seeming generally happy there despite not being their usual type of pupil seems a lot more realistic and perhaps shows a more egalitarian side than just brushing the superficial class differences under the carpet.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Cel wrote:
Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that EBD allowing Joan to basically stay the same character, even after her capitulation in the study and general settling down, is in fact a lot less patronising than if she had the usual overnight transformation into 'a true Chalet girl at last' that tends to follow these scenes. The fact that Joan remains who she is, rubbing along fairly well at the School and seeming generally happy there despite not being their usual type of pupil seems a lot more realistic and perhaps shows a more egalitarian side than just brushing the superficial class differences under the carpet.


I agree - to some extent. I do think it's sad that we never see Joan with any special friends, and that the other characters with whom we're meant to sympathise never really seem to like her, or even make any real effort to understand her - apart from Mary-Lou, of course, but you couldn't really call them friends.

Author:  Lesley [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I do think it sad, though, that she never appears to get recognition for things that she does - she should, surely, have been entitled to a bravery award for her actions when the bridge was flooded?

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I think that Joan's original "issue" was being "common" rather than just being working class. Biddy O'Ryan is also from a working class background but becomes the perfect CS girl - teaching at the school and then marrying a doctor :lol: - and there's never the slightest suggestion that any of the domestic staff behave "improperly" in any way. I would imagine that the Bakers were meant to be the sort of family whom their own neighbours tutted about (re Joan hanging around with "unsavoury" boys, wearing too much make up, etc). Her own grandfather doesn't seem to approve of her clothes, and she knows that her mother would go mad if she heard her swearing. EBD's problem with her does seem to be snobbery, though: she really does seem to have it in for Joan. It'd be interesting to know whether or not Joan would have become properly integrated into the school if she'd been a middle-class girl who (when she first arrived) dressed "unsuitably" and wore a lot of make-up, like Rykie in the Abbey books.

I feel sad about the way EBD treats Joan: Joan never makes any close friends, there are digs at her in the later books in scenes when she doesn't even seem to be mentioned, and she gets no credit for her bravery in Richenda or for working hard. Like Cel said, though, I'm glad she stays on. Naomi and Yseult, the two other girls in the middle Swiss books who don't have an appropriately CS-type outlook on life - Yseult in her way dresses as "unsuitably" as Joan, and is reprimanded by Kathie for rudeness, whilst Mary-Lou "wonders what sort of home" Naomi comes from because Naomi does not consider herself to be either a Catholic or a Protestant (OOAO annoys me so much there!) - are both just written out after one term.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
I feel sad about the way EBD treats Joan: Joan never makes any close friends, there are digs at her in the later books in scenes when she doesn't even seem to be mentioned, and she gets no credit for her bravery in Richenda or for working hard.


Doesn't she also leave school early because her younger sister still needs schooling and her parents are running out of money? That's a fairly generous act, and not something that most of the girls would have to deal with - but again, she doesn't get any credit for her actions.

Author:  jennifer [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

What gets me is that both Biddy and Rosamund, from working class backgrounds, have their refined manners and attitudes described as coming from their mothers aping their upper class employees. In other words, it's their exposure to their betters that has overcome their natural commonness.

Joan demonstrates physical and emotional bravery in the flood, and self sacrifice and practicality in her choices when leaving school. She does settle down and works really hard at her languages, even adding Spanish. But she doesn't get much credit for it.

However, EBD is generally much better than EJO. There are numerous times in the Abbey books where lower class people are shown as superstitious, emotionally uncontrolled, undependable, lacking in intelligence, and unrefined. This is explained on occasion by the fact that they haven't had the sort of superior training the Abbey girls have had, so they aren't capable of rational thinking or refined behaviour. However, the Abbey characters who are raised in less upper class environments always have their sensitive Italian blood or some such elevating them above their common surroundings.

Author:  andydaly [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

jennifer wrote:
Abbey characters who are raised in less upper class environments always have their sensitive Italian blood or some such elevating them above their common surroundings.


You get the same kind of set up in Ella at the Wells, for all of the Lorna Hill fans out there - the family that Ella grows up in are gross caricatures of working class life, without one redeeming feature, even the usual patronising stuff about warmth and crude kindness that you get in other books. Ella, on the other hand, with the "sensitive Italian blood" as Jennifer says, is innately refined and gentle. Even then, the snobbery took my breath away, and I wasn't the most socially or politically aware of children.

I always loved the squeamish, euphemistic way EBD referred to the Vic Coles character. What exactly did he do to make him so unsavoury, aside from making girls laugh and buying them fish and chips?

Author:  JayB [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

andydaly:
Quote:
I always loved the squeamish, euphemistic way EBD referred to the Vic Coles character. What exactly did he do to make him so unsavoury, aside from making girls laugh and buying them fish and chips?


Groped them on street corners was my assumption. Or had a record for juvenile delinquency. Or had maybe even 'got a girl in trouble'.

Jennifer:
Quote:
However, EBD is generally much better than EJO. There are numerous times in the Abbey books where lower class people are shown as superstitious, emotionally uncontrolled, undependable, lacking in intelligence, and unrefined.

And EBD's characters are never so downright unkind, even contemptuous, towards people they see as lower class as the Abbey folk sometimes are. I can't see Joy entertaining Grandma Learoyd to tea, as Nell did. Or see any CS character wondering whether Madge would sack a member of the domestic staff who had gone off without warning to see her sick mother.

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

jennifer wrote:
What gets me is that both Biddy and Rosamund, from working class backgrounds, have their refined manners and attitudes described as coming from their mothers aping their upper class employers. In other words, it's their exposure to their betters that has overcome their natural commonness.


Yes, indeed. That appears to be the difference between Biddy/Ros and Joan for EBD. It annoys me slightly the way that Ros and Biddy (two lovely characters, of whom I am very fond) are portrayed on their arrival at the CS, because I'm not sure I buy the idea that their 'refinement' in CS eyes should be some kind of index of their worth as people.

Biddy is an extremely hungry child runaway who's been begging before showing up at the Tiernsee and being fed on scraps by the Middles, yet we're told they notice she ate 'daintily' nonetheless, as though it's some kind of factor of her deservingness. One finds oneself wondering whether, if she'd eaten like a pig (which wouldn't have been grounds for condemning a hungry child, surely), she'd have ended up being adopted by the school, and eventually, despite being initially consigned to the village school as servant class, making it into the CS and a life as Oxford graduate, mistress and doctor's wife....? There would be a very interesting (if very un-EBD) drabble to be written on Biddy, who is self-evidently no fool, working out the kind of behaviour that was going to force the CS to see her as a CS girl, rather than as a proto-servant, as she's originally viewed.

And Ros, no matter that her mother was a servant, still grew up in a house with a tin bath in the kitchen, and, even if she washed at home (at a sink or washstand) far more regularly than Joan seems to - as we assume - would still have had to adjust to things like the daily CS baths, which are unlikely to have been the norm in a house where there was no bathroom. But while we're shown 'common' Joan resenting the washing and wriggling out of it, because EBD is interested in showing up her 'commonness', Ros is never shown as having adjustment difficulties, because part of the reason (I assume) that EBD chose to introduce them together is to make naturally 'refined' Ros a stick to beat 'common' Joan with.

A more sceptical reader might think that the reason (as we're told in one of the later books) that people remain unsure what to make of Joan, because Ros is from the same place (and implicitly, the same class) and is nonetheless 'one with the rest of them in everything', is because Ros has always been taught by her mother about imitating middle-class virtues, whereas Joan, with her shop girl mother, hasn't, and is less anxious to acquire them as a tool to 'getting on' socially.

Incidentally, I noticed (on Joan's behalf!) in Triplets, that when Maeve Bettany says she's a dud at exams and the 'family dunce', she says that Mummy even says she's going to 'have to go into a shop!' I mean, it's only a light-hearted remark, but clearly 'going into a shop' is shorthand here for being too much of a dunce to do anything else, and it's a joke that the well-born daughter Maeve would do something so lowly - but one thinks of poor Joan having to learn at the CS that the thing she's always been (rather nastily) proud of, that her mother was in a shop while Ros's was a servant, is a thing to be laughed at in her new environment...

Author:  Mel [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I agree and get equally annoyed about Biddy and Ros being deserving because they are naturally fastidious due to mothers in service. It was all part of the 'great unwashed' concept that EBD would have been familiar with. She talks of girls wearing old, much-mended clothes (good, middle-class, thrifty) but also adds that they are 'scrupulously clean.' What I do like about Biddy is that she is never overtly grateful, not ever so 'umble at all and becomes as wild and naughty as the other Middles. EBD has odd attitudes generally to the working classes. The Tyroleans are never mocked, but admired for their piety, hard work and devotion, but when the school moves to Britain, she feels free to make comic characters out of Grandma and family, the policeman in 'Rescue' and the awkward, galumphing maid in the island books.

Author:  Tor [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

ah... but the poor in foreign countries (particularly the rural poor) are so much more picturesque :wink:

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

andydaly wrote:
However, EBD is generally much better than EJO. There are numerous times in the Abbey books where lower class people are shown as superstitious, emotionally uncontrolled, undependable, lacking in intelligence, and unrefined.


And not only EJO, Blyton is guilty of this as well. As for Agatha Christie, I'm an avid fan, but she's only short of arguing the case for eugenics. Her maids are invariably adenoidal, snivelling, stupid, rabbity and have an unhealthy interest in death and disease. EBD is light years ahead of her time in this respect, and she doesn't rationalise natural refinement by endowing either Ros or Biddy with some recent ancester of 'gentle birth,' as was so often the case in GO literature. I'm just disappointed that poor Joan remains marginalised throughout her time in the CS, and, in view of the ending in Problem, puzzled by it.
A further thought, has any noticed how the enjoyment of 'shop cake' is certain failure for integration into the inner sanctum. While Ros is daintily eating homemade leafy cake in preparation for her absorbtion into the CS, poor Joan is greedily wolfing down some synthetic shop bought cake with lurid pink icing. By their cakes shall you know them!

Author:  RroseSelavy [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

MJKB wrote:
A further thought, has any noticed how the enjoyment of 'shop cake' is certain failure for integration into the inner sanctum. While Ros is daintily eating homemade leafy cake in preparation for her absorbtion into the CS, poor Joan is greedily wolfing down some synthetic shop bought cake with lurid pink icing. By their cakes shall you know them!


Yes, I always read that as a criticism of Joan's mother - was feeding her offspring shop-bought cake (and 'cheap bread,' IIRC) meant to be read as symptomatic of a bad/misguided mother? Especially compared with the domesticated picture we get of Mrs Lilley.

I also really dislike the bit in Richenda where Ros talks about being behind due to having attended a 'government school.' I would love to see this used as the starting point for a drabble where a former state school pupil arrives at the CS and is ahead of the others in some subjects :twisted: I find it hard to believe that, isolated as they were on the Platz, the CS staff managed to keep up with the development of the school curriculum. For instance, they seem to have no science mistresses other than Bill and Miss Armitage and their degrees would have been incredibly out-of-date by this time.

Author:  Mel [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I like the bit where Ros's sister is a bit sniffy about 'private schools' though, she being at a High School. Ros attended an elementary school, later to be Secondary Modern because she was ill for her 11+ exam. It's likely she might be behind in Latin or languages.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

What about Polly and Lalla Winterton, who told the Bettanys that they'd had a governess because they couldn't possibly have gone to the village school and there hadn't been another school nearby ... and then both ended up in forms with girls much younger than them because they did so badly in the entrance exams! I don't think that EBD intended to be ironic at all there, but it's certainly the way it comes out.

Then of course there's Reg. The shocking fact of a domestic servant's son wanting to become a doctor has to be explained by stressing the fact that his dad's family were middle class.

The point about the "Italian blood" et al's really interesting. To get back to the example of Ella at the Wells, IIRC Ella's natural parents had been in the circus, which (no offence to anyone who has relations in the circus!) you would think would actually place them lower on the social scale than the Sordys, her foster family; but it's made clear that Ella is "naturally" more delicate/refined than the rest of the Sordy family. Same kind of thing in some of the Abbey books. Does anyone know what the reason for it is?

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

MJKB wrote:
By their cakes shall you know them!


Absolutely - Joan's shop-bought cake is evidence of her 'cheap' background, all flash and no substance, but the continual devouring of purchased pastries by virtually every member of the CS is a sign of continental sophistication, especially when you go to the counter with a fork and choose your own! :roll:

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
To get back to the example of Ella at the Wells, IIRC Ella's natural parents had been in the circus, which (no offence to anyone who has relations in the circus!) you would think would actually place them lower on the social scale than the Sordys, her foster family; but it's made clear that Ella is "naturally" more delicate/refined than the rest of the Sordy family. Same kind of thing in some of the Abbey books. Does anyone know what the reason for it is?


In the Wells books it always seemed to me that that the people with artistic natures were in a class of their own. So, while you had Ella being maltreated by the Sordys, you also had Nigel and his mother mistreating both Mariella and Sylvia Swan - a general trend of those lacking in culture also lacking in humanity!

Having said that, I've never read the Abbey books, so I can't really comment on any parallels between the two.

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Mel wrote:
The point about the "Italian blood" et al's really interesting. To get back to the example of Ella at the Wells, IIRC Ella's natural parents had been in the circus, which (no offence to anyone who has relations in the circus!) you would think would actually place them lower on the social scale than the Sordys, her foster family


Funny thing that, Enid Blyton had the same romantic perception of circus folk and the circus girl, Carlotta, is one the most colourful as well as most popular girls in St. Clare's. Perhaps the reason is that they are socially ambiguous and can't be placed within the British class system. Irish and Scottish girls too don't conform to strict social norms, and, regardless of their backgrounds, they all speak with exaggerated brogues.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

RroseSelavy wrote:
I also really dislike the bit in Richenda where Ros talks about being behind due to having attended a 'government school.' I would love to see this used as the starting point for a drabble where a former state school pupil arrives at the CS and is ahead of the others in some subjects :twisted: I find it hard to believe that, isolated as they were on the Platz, the CS staff managed to keep up with the development of the school curriculum. For instance, they seem to have no science mistresses other than Bill and Miss Armitage and their degrees would have been incredibly out-of-date by this time.


But then in saying that, I know in Victoria, Australia, they do put the top 100 best school in term of Year 12 results and only 4 governement school make the list consistently year in and out. All the rest are private so can understand the belief behind that.
However, given so many of the girls repeat years or are years behind for their age, I'm surprised the CS thinks so highly of it's education in some respects.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Private schools often do better in the UK too, but a big part of that is that they're usually selective and so only take pupils who are likely to do well academically.

Early on, we get a lot of remarks about how the CS isn't that good academically, at least when compared to Continental schools - Simone worries about how she'll cope at the Sorbonne - but that seems to be because it's considered that Continental schools push their pupils harder, and is never mentioned later on anyway.

It amazes me how they all do so well given that they miss so much time being ill, going off ski-ing/walking/swimming during lesson time, and sitting around "resting" :lol: .

Author:  Tor [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Quote:
MJKB wrote:
By their cakes shall you know them!


Absolutely - Joan's shop-bought cake is evidence of her 'cheap' background, all flash and no substance, but the continual devouring of purchased pastries by virtually every member of the CS is a sign of continental sophistication, especially when you go to the counter with a fork and choose your own!


Just goes to show that not much changes! From the discussions about white bread and chips in The Road to Wigan Pier by Orwell to all the hoo-hah in the news currently about KFC expanding and class-association of fast food, I think that stereotype is alive and well today in a very large portion of middle/upper class UK.

It does seem that EBD was employing some sort of allegory with Joan, maybe through some very well meaning attempt to say to her working class readers (like me) "Better yourselves!" in some proto-Jamie Oliver way, that will always come across as condescending, despite its good intentions. What gives it a more general aura of ingrained snobbery is, as MJKB, pointed out, the fact that Joan is never allowed to fully integrate in later books. And various other small comments dotted around about village and government schools etc

Author:  JS [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Quote:
While Ros is daintily eating homemade leafy cake in preparation for her absorbtion into the CS, poor Joan is greedily wolfing down some synthetic shop bought cake with lurid pink icing. By their cakes shall you know them!


Does anyone have any experience of 'leafy cake'? I've never come across it (except in this book).

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:

Early on, we get a lot of remarks about how the CS isn't that good academically, at least when compared to Continental schools - Simone worries about how she'll cope at the Sorbonne - but that seems to be because it's considered that Continental schools push their pupils harder, and is never mentioned later on anyway.


I was thinking about this in relation to Maeve Bettany's remark in Tripletsabout her own abilities when Mary Murrell asks whether she's going to go in for the Therese LePattre scholarship:

Quote:
Maeve went off into peals of laughter. Oh, my dear! Are you quite mental? I'm the most hopelessly un-exam-minded creature that ever graced our establish-ment. I can manage our own terminal exams, but face me with a public one and I've had it! I go literally haywire. Every single fact I ever learned vanishes and I can't even express the few facts I can get down, decently. Mummy says I'll have to go into a shop - and then I doubt if I'd ever get the change right! I'm the family dud, my pet!”


This sounds as though the CS has its own 'terminal exams' at the end of its final year, separately from the 'public' exams (although it's not clear to me whether the school, as well as being a centre for English public exams, would also be one for the baccalaureat, which I would assume the French girls at least would need to take ahead of getting in to the Sorbonne?). And Maeve seems to be saying that they're easier, as she can manage the CS exams, but not the public ones, although it seems like an odd distinction. You might legitimately be more nervous, of course, about exams that are not 'in-house' and set by your own mistresses - and there's nothing riding on success or failure in the CS terminal exams, I suppose - but I wouldn't have thought that someone as level-headed as Maeve would freak out to that extent if the exams were roughly comparable in levels of difficulty...? Also, if there were 'easy' CS terminal exams for some girls and more difficult A-levels/Baccalaureat/whatever for others, wouldn't the mistresses have a quandary in trying to prepare the girls for two entirely different levels of effort?

Which hasn't much to do with Joan or Problem. So I'll finish by saying that I feel the urge to start a Vic Coles Reclamation League, echoing whoever said we don't actually know any ill of him, bar the fact he buys girls chips and makes them laugh on walks. He might just be generous and funny with an undeserved 'unsavoury reputation' - the phrase makes me laugh because it's always associated for me with the fish and chips in this book! But at least he's not a doctor who seems to be continually doling out sedatives, and producing his syringe, which is my primary objection to the most prominent kind of EBD man.

Author:  RroseSelavy [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:
So I'll finish by saying that I feel the urge to start a Vic Coles Reclamation League, echoing whoever said we don't actually know any ill of him, bar the fact he buys girls chips and makes them laugh on walks. He might just be generous and funny with an undeserved 'unsavoury reputation' - the phrase makes me laugh because it's always associated for me with the fish and chips in this book! But at least he's not a doctor who seems to be continually doling out sedatives, and producing his syringe, which is my primary objection to the most prominent kind of EBD man.


I can imagine him as a rocker, possibly getting his 'unsavoury reputation' by burning up to the Ace Cafe with a different girl on the pillion each weekend.

Author:  Tor [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

but it was just bravado to cover up his unrequited love for Ros Lilley! :lol: :lol:

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Tor wrote:
but it was just bravado to cover up his unrequited love for Ros Lilley! :lol: :lol:


Oh man, I'm such a sucker for that rebellious boy/good girl dynamic. Vic could teach Ros to let her hair down occasionally, and she could inspire him to wash every day. Maybe, eventually, she'd even let him rescue her from an avalanche.

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Well done EBD for coming up with the name Vic Coles. It just does what it says on the tin!

Author:  JS [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Quote:
Maybe, eventually, she'd even let him rescue her from an avalanche


Only once he'd got his MBChB :D

Author:  Selena [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
What about Polly and Lalla Winterton, who told the Bettanys that they'd had a governess because they couldn't possibly have gone to the village school and there hadn't been another school nearby ... and then both ended up in forms with girls much younger than them because they did so badly in the entrance exams! I don't think that EBD intended to be ironic at all there, but it's certainly the way it comes out.


I think the problem with village schools was a class one, not an academic one. EBD always seems to insinuate the parents think their children will pick up bad language or bad habits or not meet friends of a desirable social class. :roll:

In Three Go, Len tells Mary-Lou that apart from the Chalet School there's only the village school, "and you won't go there". And Joey and Jack debate sending Stephen to the village school for a couple of years until he's old enough for boarding school because according to Jack he might "pick up all sorts of language".

I went to village state schools, and if i'd sworn at anyone i would have got into a lot of trouble. I think it's just based on upper-class snobbery. :evil:

I'm not sure if EBD went to private schools and heard her own parents make such remarks about village schools or if she was just saying what she thought upper-class parents would say. Does anyone know her educational background?

I can quite well believe some people, especially of that generation, might actually prefer their girls to be badly academically educated as long as they were kept with people of their own class. I have read similar things in other books.

Author:  Lulie [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Selena wrote:
In Three Go, Len tells Mary-Lou that apart from the Chalet School there's only the village school, "and you won't go there". And Joey and Jack debate sending Stephen to the village school for a couple of years until he's old enough for boarding school because according to Jack he might "pick up all sorts of language".

I went to village state schools, and if i'd sworn at anyone i would have got into a lot of trouble. I think it's just based on upper-class snobbery. :evil:


I always took it to mean that they'd pick up a very broad local accent and dialect expressions rather than the more RP accent/expressions that I expect the CS characters to have. Picking up swearing never crossed my mind!

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

EBD went to a small private school, which when she was 12 moved to "quite the most desirable residential district in South Shields" :wink: .

Ah ... having just looked that up in Behind the Chalet School, I've been reminded (it's mentioned in the same chapter) that her paternal grandmother "came from a South African Dutch family". Whilst that doesn't explain why on earth Jem or Mr Flower would have spoken Afrikaans, it might explain why EBD had them speaking Afrikaans as opposed to any other not widely spoken language (in Exile). Sorry, that's totally beside the point :oops: .

Again according to Behind the Chalet School, many of the children in EBD's own neighbourhood attended state schools, but EBD's mother was very keen on being seen to be middle-class and sending her daughter to a private school was part of that. So she might well have made the sort of remarks to EBD that Len and the Wintertons make, about picking up a broad local accent. She sounds like a bit of a Hyacinth Bucket (Keeping up Appearances) character ...

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I don't think that snobbery about educational establishments is all that uncommon today. I watched a documentary with the most spoilt girl EVER, who went to private school, saying that anybody not at school as a chav, and dirty, and she refused to have anything to do with them. I know that they probably went out of their way to choose someone extreme, but really... :roll: I've also wanted to go to private school. The school I'm at (I stayed on for sixth form) is supposed to be really good, but I never quite got it. I spent at least half my time despiaring because other people never worked. Anyway, that's another story.

I always quite liked Joan - she knew she was different and, at first at least, she didn't seem to care. She changed who she was in that she became "nicer" - saying her prayers, washing, etc - but she always seemed to stay slightly different from the others, which made her an interesting, realistic character. She also has the nerve to look down on the CS girls for not having as much life experience as her, which actually is a very valid point.

Author:  Cat C [ Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Quote:
I don't think that snobbery about educational establishments is all that uncommon today. I watched a documentary with the most spoilt girl EVER, who went to private school, saying that anybody not at school as a chav, and dirty, and she refused to have anything to do with them.


Hmmm. Interesting that the documentary chose to show snobbishness in that direction - I've tended to find inverted snobbishness far worse, and more pervasive and actually acceptable.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I never see Joan as not fully reforming. To an extent she doesn't fit in mainly because her interests are poles apart to most of the girls there. I think it's fairly accurate that while the essence of Joan changed the superficial stuff like her interests didn't really. And the girls obviously like and respect her enough to make her Tidiness Monitor in her second term there, which if they didn't then they wouldn't have. I always see it as Joan being on a parallel line to most of the other pupils and never the twain shall meet and as friendly as people were with her, there's a difference between being friendly to someone and being friends with someone. With the exception of Ricki's reaction, we never see anyone else act like that

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Cat C wrote:
I don't think that snobbery about educational establishments is all that uncommon today. I watched a documentary with the most spoilt girl EVER, who went to private school, saying that anybody not at school as a chav, and dirty, and she refused to have anything to do with them.


This type of snobbery is alive and kicking in Ireland, or South side Dublin to be exact. Fees are notoriously low because the Department of Education pays all teachers salaries regardless of state or private sector. Consequently, it is a bit galling to hear some little upstart boasting about her parents paying for her education. One feels like saying, actually,dear, that's not true. The tax payer is paying, actually!

Author:  Kate [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

:shock: My friend worked in a private school last year and she was paid considerably less than the department wage. If the department are supposed to be paying them, I wonder where does the rest of the money go...

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

A few ex quota and part time teachers are paid by the school, or part by the Department and part by the school. The rest of the staff are paid by the DES. Quite a few of the private schools recently have been forced to let ex quota staff because of cut backs in the Department. Obviously those staff paid by the school would be on far lower scales than the rest.

Author:  Nightwing [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I don't think that snobbery about educational establishments is all that uncommon today.


It's really not - although in my experience it cuts both ways. The girls at my school had reputations for being complete snobs, while the girls at the nearest state school had reputations for, shall we say, unsavoury acts. The truth was that for the most part we all came from the same kind of backgrounds, the same kind of families, and held the same kinds of values, and were actually pretty good friends with each other! It's just that over the years this certain stereotype had built up about each of our schools, and that's what people remembered most about us.

Private schools here do generally do better in exam results, but as someone else said that's in large part because they can choose who their pupils are, whereas state schools have to let in everyone. I've even heard of some private schools not letting students sit exams if they're likely to do badly in them, because their poor results will reflect badly on the school. And, of course, having students with money helps - private schools can afford to give their pupils pastoral care and counselling, coaching for the kids who struggle, and access to educational resources that state schools will never be able to afford.

Um, I seem to have got a little off track. The snobbery about "village schools" does seem to be more class than educational. I wonder what kind of educational reputation private schools had back in EBD's day, though? Baring in mind that few girls would have been expected to go on to higher education - and probably less upper class girls did than middle class - perhaps private schools were simply seen as somewhere safe to keep your daughter until she was ready to marry or enter society, and therefore laughable for an actual education? Does anyone know?

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I think that that's quite an issue in the books and was probably also an issue in EBD's own life. Right from the start, we have, all in the same school:

a) People like Gisela, Marie and Frieda, whose aim in life is to meet a nice man and get married, and who also know that their fathers or brothers will support them if they don't meet Mr Right.
b) People like Juliet and Simone, who probably hope to get married but know that they'll have to find jobs to support themselves until that happens or in case it never does happen.
c) People, like Stacie and (originally) Mary Burnett, who enjoy studying and want a good education for its own sake.

By the time the school's been going for a decade or so, the "just want to get married" people are becoming fewer in number, but instead there are people like Blossom Willoughby who will be "needed at home", and people like Enid Sothern who don't plan to get jobs as they think that it's wrong for people who don't need to earn their own money to take work which could otherwise go to people who do.

However, by the end of the series, with the social changes resulting from the War - and maybe also a change in the background of the average CS girl? - most girls plan to go on to some form of higher education/training and there's far more emphasis on academic work - although we never really see/hear much about exams, and everyone gets into the university of their choice! The fact that one of Ted's old schools taught painting on china is considered really funny, but in the early books that was one of the activities at the CS Hobbies Club. Things change pretty considerably.

Sorry for long waffle :oops: . Procrastinating from going to bed.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Don't know if this would be relevant, but I'm reading 'Emma' at the moment, so thought that I'd put up this quote.

Quote:
...not of a seminary, or an establishment, or anything which professed, in long sentences of refined nonsense, to combine liberal acquirements with elegant morality upon new principles and new systems - and where young ladies, for enormous pay, might be screwed out of health and into vanity - but a real, honest, old fashioned Boarding school, where a reasonable quantity of accomplishments were sold at a reasonable price, and where girls might be sent out of the way and scramble themselves into a little education, without any danger of coming back prodigies.


Quite a bit before EBD, I know, but it does seem to suggest that upper class education for women was perceived as not all that it ought to be...

Author:  Cat C [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

If we're quoting, I can't resist the beginning of Cold Comfort Farm:

Quote:
The education bestowed on Flora Poste by her parents had been expensive, athletic and prolonged; and when they died within a few weeks of one another during the annual epidemic of the influenza or Spanish Plague which occurred in her twentieth year, she was discovered to possess every art and grace save that of earning her own living.

Author:  JayB [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

Quote:
The snobbery about "village schools" does seem to be more class than educational.


I think the problem with village schools post-11 was educational. The problem dated from 1918 when the leaving age was raised to fourteen, but proper provision wasn't made for those additional two years. Children who didn't go to a High School or Grammar School, and for whom there was no other secondary school available, had no option but to stay on at the village school until 14.

Those village schools, and their teachers, weren't equipped to teach older children, or to teach the subjects the children would get at a secondary school - languages, commercial subjects etc. Nobody learned much that was useful and the older children were often just marking time until they could leave. (Polly Winterton would have been past, or near to, the leaving age, when the Wintertons moved to Devon, wouldn't she?)

Hence the 1944 Act, which aimed to make real secondary education available to all children, according to their age, aptitude and ability.

(Big towns by the 1930s generally had secondary schools for those children who didn't go to grammar school, but many country districts didn't.)

Author:  Jennie [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

I went to a big village school from when I was four to when I was eleven. I was in a class of forty, and even if you came late to the school, as several children did, and were illiterate, by the time my class teacher had taught you for a term, you were certainly literate and numerate, and if female, could hem a piece of fabric beautifully, knit and embroider.

Even now, if I bodge a piece of sewing or mending, I look behind me to see if Miss Rickets is looking over my shoulder and tutting at me.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

THere were six girls in our family, I'm the youngest, and we were all sent to private school. My only brother was sent, after his First Communion at age seven, to a National school to "toughen him up." School fees were very low but the difference was considerable between a private junior school and the state national school.
I started school in the early sixties and remember being made to believe that the "poor children in the national school" went round in their bare feet begging for a crust of bread to keep body and soul together. Whenever the nuns confiscated something from us, usually a comic, it was sent over to the "poor children in the national school." I had serious visions of the starving multitudes depicted in pictures of the famine!
In actual fact, the education was better academically, at least in Irish and Maths, and I'd hazard a guestimate that the majority of teachers in the private sector were untrained. We got extras like dancing and drama, which was nice, but hardly helped us in the public exams. Nowadays there are very few private junior school still going due to rising costs. The Jesuits still run a few and they also select at seven which, kind of runs counter to their commitment to social justice.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: A Problem for the Chalet School

MJKB wrote:
the education was better academically, at least in Irish and Maths

I meant to say in the national schools.

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