Sybil Russell
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#1: Sybil Russell Author: JosieLocation: London PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:33 am


Please discuss Sybil here...

 


#2:  Author: RuthLocation: Physically: Lincolnshire, England. Inwardly: The Scottish Highlands PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:23 am


Sybil is a pain in the neck. I don't like the way she thinks she should be treated differently because she is Madge's daughter. I do like her more as she grows older. I am glad that she was not made Head Girl, it would have been only beacuse she was Madame's Daughter and not because she had any of the qualities that make a good HG - it shows good insight on the Head's part (and on EBD's - she knew that Sybil could not be HG). I don't like vanity and if Sybil was my child she would get a jolly hard spanking! I approve of the way Madge and Jem react over the scalding of Josette - talking to Sybil would not have worked, she would probably have liked the attention. Instead she was mostly ignored which I think did her a world of good and set her up for later in life - it is to be hoped that she would remember it.

 


#3:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:57 am


I'm surprised that Sybil got away with her behaviour for as long as she did and somebody didn't bring her up about it.

 


#4:  Author: RuthYLocation: Anyone's guess PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:12 am


what exactly happened when sybil scalded Josette? (sorry to seem ignorant)

what exactly is a 'peaches and cream' complexion?

Her behaviour to Rix as a small child in the tyrol is very brattish as is her treatment of the McDonald twins. She starts out vain but learns to be better as she goes up the school She deserves her prefectship when she gets it but I'm glad ebd didn't make her head girl just because she was madges daughter, she was not right for head girl although quite a nice character by the time she left school.

Ruth

 


#5:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:24 pm


RuthY wrote:
what exactly happened when sybil scalded Josette? (sorry to seem ignorant)


From various points in Gay:

Jo: In the meantime, I’m just putting up a notice for my sister. She was rung up when she left the room and had to fly. Josette has upset a kettle of boiling water over herself, so my sister fled.

‘Not here!’ There was finality in Daisy’s tone as she spoke. ‘The final court of appeal is my Aunt Madge. Only, I don’t want to bother her if we can help it. Josette’s really very rotten. It’s a nasty scald, poor baby – all over her tummy, and down one leg. I know they’re anxious about her. I should think this will teach young Sybil to be a little less cocksure in future. Auntie says she is very sorry; but Uncle won’t let Sybs go home till half-term. If she hadn’t been messing about with the kettle, Josette couldn’t have run into her, and then it wouldn’t have got spilt. Josette stood on Sybil’s foot, and she shrieked and dropped the kettle. It fell on the poor baby, against her chest, and upset all down her tummy. Rosa wasn’t here – she was in the poultry-yard – and Sybil had no more sense than to drag Josette up to the bathroom, and take her clothes off, one by one. By the time she’d finished, her vest was sticking to her, and Sybs just yanked it off – and half the skin with it. If it hadn’t been for that, she wouldn’t have been so bad. It’s all Sybil’s fault.’
‘Then I’m sorry for Sybil,’ said Janet soberly. ‘It must be awful for her to know that she’s caused her little sister so much pain.’
‘Oh, it’s upset her. She isn’t like herself just now at all,’ said Daisy. ‘And Uncle Jem being so furious about it makes it a lot worse. He doesn’t usually lose his wool over things. If there’s any ticking-off done in that family, it’s generally Auntie Madge who has to do it.’

(So we even know what Rosa was doing!)

‘MY DEAREST BILL, OTHERWISE NELL! – For Heaven’s sake get back as soon as you can! And don’t be surprised if you find this letter full of exclamations. I daren’t write down exactly what I feel. The paper wouldn’t stand it, and the Postmaster-General would have me run in for arson! But if ever Madge made a mistake in her lift, she’s done it now! And we can’t bother her at the moment. Josette is a shade better, poor kiddy. They think the scalds are going on well; but the shock has been very bad, and she’s still frighteningly weak. Jem says that if she weathers another week she’ll pull through. And for it to happen now, when we wanted Madge to be as free from worry as possible! I think Sybil has had the lesson of her life. I was raging when I heard what she’d done; but no one could keep on, she’s such a poor little bundle of misery. Even Jem – and he was wild with her for days – has had to come round and forgive her. Madge, needless to state, did so almost at once. And that made Sybs weep harder. She’s had a bad time of it.
[...]
‘Jem has just rung me up. Josette is stronger again. Her heart is steadier, and though he refuses to say anything definite, he has better hope of her now. But they’ve very nearly lost her. You can see why we’ve all studiously refrained from troubling Madge about school affairs.

‘Had Josette been so ill? Jo told me about the accident, and she said she was rather badly hurt; but she never told me there was any real danger.’
‘She’s safe now, thank God! But they’ve nearly lost her. However, she is coming round at last. I saw her yesterday, poor mite. She’s shrunk to a mere scrap, and her poor little face looks all eyes. I could have cried to see her.’ And Matron, who was famed for a lack of sentiment, blew her nose fiercely.
‘She’ll soon make that up. Mercifully, children are as quickly up as they are down. How has it affected Sybil? Jo told me she was to blame.’
‘I’ve never known any child so subdued in my life. The doctor was furious with her. For some days he wouldn’t go near her or speak to her, and Madame couldn’t, of course. She wouldn’t leave Josette. The poor child nearly cried herself ill. I sent for her father in the end and told him plainly that if he didn’t do something about it, he’d had another invalid in the family. So he came over to see her, by which time she’d fretted herself into a fever. Her temp. was 103 degrees when I took it, and I’d put her to bed. He forgave her on the spot, and talked very sweetly to her. I think she’s learnt a lesson that will last her for life. She’s a different girl now.’

‘How can you ever forgive Sybil?’ she burst out. ‘I should hate the very sight of her!’
‘Oh, no, you wouldn’t,’ returned Sybil’s mother confidently. ‘She’s just as much our girl as Josette is. She meant no harm to her little sister, and if it had been only an accident, even my husband would not have been angry with her. She has broken her heart over the whole thing, poor little maid. The trouble was that she deliberately disobeyed an order, and our poor baby has had to pay for it physically. I think Sybil has paid quite heavily enough mentally.’

I think that's most of what's in Gay. Later books make mention of it, too, but I'm not hunting all them out!

 


#6:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:49 pm


KB wrote:
RuthY wrote:
what exactly happened when sybil scalded Josette? (sorry to seem ignorant)


From various points in Gay:

‘How can you ever forgive Sybil?’ she burst out. ‘I should hate the very sight of her!’
‘Oh, no, you wouldn’t,’ returned Sybil’s mother confidently. ‘She’s just as much our girl as Josette is. She meant no harm to her little sister, and if it had been only an accident, even my husband would not have been angry with her. She has broken her heart over the whole thing, poor little maid. The trouble was that she deliberately disobeyed an order, and our poor baby has had to pay for it physically. I think Sybil has paid quite heavily enough mentally.’

I think that's most of what's in Gay. Later books make mention of it, too, but I'm not hunting all them out!


That wasn't very nice or forgiving of Jo. I thought she was meant to forgive others as a Catholic? At least Madge talked sense into her.

 


#7:  Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:56 pm


Chair wrote:
That wasn't very nice or forgiving of Jo. I thought she was meant to forgive others as a Catholic? At least Madge talked sense into her.


I don't think that was Jo speaking, I think it was the eeeevil Miss Bubb!

ETA: I always thought Sybil was quite badly treated over the accident. I thought Jem was awful to her, not speaking to her for days, for what was, after all, an accident. There should have been proper supervision and if Sybil didn't know that you shouldn't remove clothes, well, hardly her fault, she was only a little girl and perhaps Jem should've given some basic first aid lessons!

Sybil is not one of my favourites though - I also don't like the way she treats the McDonalds twins or the Bettany cousins - though it is implied that the latter try to take over the Die Rosen nursery and boss the Russells around. I much prefer Josette who seems a better-written character.

 


#8:  Author: patmacLocation: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:56 pm


Poor Sybil!

Madge was already bringing up Peggy, Rix and David. It sounds from various bits in the books that there was some friction -

David is seen 'sidling over to his cousin Rix who regarded him with a lofty air of contempt' when Sybil is born and then Rix says he doesn't care what they call the new baby because 'she's only a girl'. Jem says his rudeness is caused by 'being with so many girls'. Add Daisy and Primula to the family and you've got 6 older children.

I'll guess Sybil's only asset was her looks at that stage.

Sybil was only 9 years old when the accident to Josette happened. If Rosli was 'in the poultry yard', she hadn't exactly popped out for a minute if Sybil had time to take Josette upstairs and put her in the bath! She must have also been hard of hearing, not to hear Josette's screams.

Although the result was awful, plenty of people did worse and got away with it. Yes she was naughty as she had been told not to touch the kettle but she didn't scald Josette on purpose.

The reality is that EBD needed a 'baddy' among the younger generation and Sybil was it - until Margot took over the role. Then Sybil got forgotten.

 


#9:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm


I'm sorry I didn't realise Madge was speaking to Miss Bubb. I did think it didn't sound like Jo!

 


#10:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:03 pm


Some more relevant quotes:

From Peggy (Sybil's about 13 or 14 at this point)

Quote:
(Sybil) “it was my fault in the beginning.”

“Josette’s illness certainly was,” Jo agreed. “I was desperately sorry for you, Sybs, during that time—sorrier for you than anyone else, even your mother. It was hard for her to see Josette suffer, and know that there was a chance that she mightn’t live; or even if she did, she might never be well again. But it was even worse in one way for you. Madge had nothing to blame herself for. She’s always been a wonderful mother, and she’d done everything she could to help you all. If anything dreadful had happened, you would have known it was your fault.


and earlier from Highland Twins

Quote:
(Jo) "Sybil"s giving herself awful airs, my dear. She"s getting thoroughly spoilt. It isn"t even as if she were the only girl. There"s Josette coming along. I think it"s time someone took Sybil down a peg or two. "

"It"s not my fault," returned Madge Russell. "Don"t blame me, my dear. It"s all the silly idiots of young doctors and visitors who rave about her beauty. and you must admit, Jo, that she is pretty. "

...


"David does his best," laughed Lady Russell. "He really is a most disapproving brother. And I administer an occasional squashing myself when I see it"s needed. She certainly isn"t too polite to Flora and Fiona. I must speak very seriously to her when she goes to bed. But I think part of it comes from having so many older cousins then herself in the house. Sybil knows she"s a daughter of the house, and Peg and Rix and Bride are cousins, and she"s trying to keep her end up with them all. "



And from Lavender

Quote:
“You always make such a fuss of Robin,” said Sybil, tilting her small nose disdainfully. “She doesn’t really b’long to the family at all.”

 


#11:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:24 pm


I agree that Sybil was a complete brat as a small child. I also think that a good bit of her bratliness can be laid at the feet of her parents. It's interesting that when other girls come to the school with serious attitude problems, it's usually the result of bad parenting, but Madge is never accused of it.

I think a good bit of it was insecurity. She is Madge and Jem's second eldest, but their attention is split among her cousins Daisy, Primula, Rix, Peggy, Bride and Jackie, plus Robin whose not even related, all but two of whom are older than her. I could see her feeling resentful about having to split her parental attention that many ways, particularly when the Bettanys (and for a while the Venables), have parents of their own as well. Her main form of attention seems to have been people raving about her good looks!

They way Madge and Jem treat her after the accident borders on child abuse. Leaving an 8 or 9 year old alone with a much younger sibling is not a problem, doing so in an old style kitchen with a kettle boiling and no one nearby is! I wonder when they were planning on coming in to attend to the kettle? I could see Sybil trying to be helpful and removing the boiling kettle when she shouldn't have. She doesn't pour the kettle over the kid deliberately, Josette runs into her while she's lifting it.

Then the child is ignored completely by her furious parents until she frets herself into illness. Five years later she's still tormented by guilt over the accident, and instead of saying "Yes, you were misbehaving, but you were a small child, and it was an accident and there should have been an adult around anyways." Jo says "Yes, it was completely your fault, you almost killed her, and your mother is completely perfect" (to paraphrase). This is after she's been left behind in England by her parents while her younger siblings are taken along on the trip.

Sybil as an older girl is quite nice. I understand her not being made Head Girl - she's not the personality type - but I can't understand why Maeve was made Head Girl later. If I remember correctly, she never does get to the School of Needlework, which seems a shame, as she had been planning on this from about the age of 14, and had been working really hard at lessons she doesn't like in preparation.

 


#12:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:23 pm


She gets an even better reward than going to the School of Needlework. She marries a man who's in the Australian navy, the son of a Sydney doctor. Not quite as good as marrying a doctor himself but the next best thing. Wink

 


#13:  Author: joelleLocation: lancashire, england PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:29 pm


i agree with you jennifer-she gets treated like she deliberately did it. at 9 and in a house where she probably rarely went in the kitchen due to servants dealing with that side of things, it is extremely unlikely she would have known what to do. if she didnt, she acted very well-a lot of children may have just joined in howling.
it sounds like not only jem was avoiding her but madge also. i understand she had to spend a lot of time with josette afterwards but if she believed truly it wasnt sybils fault, she would have gone to her if only briefly to explain she didnt blame her. and dont get me started on jem!
it wasnt her fault she got complimented on her looks, most of the visitors probably considered it a compliment to the parents-not expecting the parents to hate being complimented on their children!
poor sybil probably had that brought up the rest of her life by elders, i doubt josette or any of the other children mentioned it. rosli deserves a lot more blame, she had left them long enough for all this to happen and not hear anything?? hmmmmm
poor sybil seems to spend the rest of her cs life (and goodness knows how long afterwards) being seen as the one whos pretty but dont tell her because look how she acted when she was 9-which seems cruel to me.
sorry for the long post-but sybil never gets a chance. we cant really form an opinion on her because of this one accident and the fact shes madges daughter. madges sons do a lot better i think.

 


#14: sybs Author: PhilLocation: London UK PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:20 pm


hello all,

does anyone thinks Sybil is left to "fade away" in the later books? Or perhaps could have used to better effect in later years?

Just a thought!

 


#15:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:38 pm


It's been said on different threads - and by others on this one - I agree that Sybil has a very raw deal. Yes she was jealous and bratty as a child - many children are, her looks were not something that she can help, yet she continues to be ashamed of them for the rest of her School life.

As to blaming an 8/9 year old child for accidently upsetting a boiling kettle over her sister - then trying to help - the people at fault there have got to be Jem for not teaching her the correct First Aid methods, Madge for not clamping down on her disobedience and Rosli or whoever was supposed to be looking after two children of 8 and 4 so she never had the opportunity to pick up the kettle.

As for Joey - her cruel agreement that it was solely Sybil's fault was actually very nasty - at least Sybil had never deliberately thrown something at another's head, attempted to blackmail, or deliberatley disobeyed and nearly died when she fell into a lake - Margot was a far nastier child, yet she was allowed far more in the way of chances and redemption.

And Sybil was never allowed to go to the Needlework college.

 


#16:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:43 pm


Why was Sybil never allowed to go to the Needlework College? That was a great shame, after she had been wanting to go for so long. Jem should have taught his children how to cope in an emergency so they could be prepared. Hadn't Sybil learnt anything in Brownies yet at least?

 


#17:  Author: LizBLocation: Oxon, England PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:06 pm


She didn't go to Needlework college because she went to Australia with Madge and Jem.

Liz

 


#18:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:25 pm


Thanks, Liz. Why couldn't she have gone to a college in Australia?

 


#19:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:40 pm


She might have done, but it wouldn't have been as prestigious as the one she hoped to attend in London.

 


#20:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:43 pm


Thanks, KB. It really is a shame after all the dreams she had of going there.

 


#21:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:15 am


I've always thought it was unfair (and uncharacteristic) of Madge to force Sybil and Josette to give up (or even postpone) their dreams simply because she wanted company while she was on a visit to Australia.

 


#22:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:22 am


I wondered if perhaps the woman Madge is based on was no longer friends with EBD (she seemed to go off people very fast) and so EBD was displaying a little bit of bitterness in the way she made Madge behave.

 


#23:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:34 pm


I always felt that Sybil got a raw deal from EBD, just as Grizel did. she made up her mind to write them that way, and di so. she could just as easliy have written them differently. But that's EBd for you.

BTW: how did Jo know that she was sorrier for Sybil than anyone else? Was there some sort of scale or meter to measure the extent of the pity?

Madge should have told her off about the scalding episode, then have told her that it was over and done with, not let the poor girl spend years feeling guilty.

As for what Jo said to her about Madge being a wonderful mother, I don't agree with that at all. Madge couldn't even be bothered to write to Sybil to let her know that they were extending their stay in Canada, but asks Jo to do it instead. Some wonderful mother!

 


#24:  Author: Kathy_SLocation: midwestern US PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:28 pm


We do see quite a few stages of Sybil, don't we: from adored baby, kidnapped by the Mystic M; through the little madam stage; then likeable schoolgirl, growing up to reliable prefect. Her dream of needlework school is an interesting one, clearly supported by her parents -- after all, even looking at her embroidery leaves Madge "flushed with pleasure" in Coming of Age. I think it would only have been deferred until after Australia, if Sybil, whom we have heard was "frankly domesticated," hadn't decided to transfer her skills to the naval officer.

I absolutely agree about Madge's (and worse, Jem's) behavior over Josette's scalding. Of course Sybil would feel guilty, but to rub it in the way they did rather than offering comfort and accepting that it was an accident -- and Josette was the one who caused Sybs to spill, for heaven's sake! -- was uncalled for.

As far as Madge's letter from Canada is concerned, though, I'd just assumed Madge wanted Sybil told in person, with plenty of hugs and reassurance, not that Madge was a particularly neglectful mother. The letter does, after all, tell how much she misses Sybil and David.

 


#25:  Author: RuthYLocation: Anyone's guess PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:48 am


Thanks KB!

 


#26:  Author: LizBLocation: Oxon, England PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:03 pm


Jennie wrote:
BTW: how did Jo know that she was sorrier for Sybil than anyone else? Was there some sort of scale or meter to measure the extent of the pity?


I always understood that to mean not that Jo felt sorrier than anyone else, but that Sybil was the one she felt sorriest for in the whole scenario.

I also wonder if travelling to Australia would have been a great opportunity for Sybil and Josette - these days lots of people take a year out and go back-packing or whatever. The chance to travel there and live there for a while might have been one they'd willingly put aside their education/career plans for for a while.

I'm fairly certain I would have leapt at the opportunity if somebody had said "why don't you come to Australia with us".

Liz

 


#27:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:36 pm


Kathy_S wrote:
We do see quite a few stages of Sybil, don't we: from adored baby, kidnapped by the Mystic M; through the little madam stage


You know, I wonder if these two stages are connected? I can imagine a traumatised Madge, wracked with guilt, clinging to the baby Sybil after the kidnapping, and perhaps spoiling her rotten. For the first time in her life, Sybs is the centre of attention. Then Josette comes along, about the same time the Bettany kids go to school, and from being the most important person in the world to her mother (and at a time when she probably expected to get more attention, with Peg and Bride out of the way) she has to go back to playing second fiddle (in *her* mind) to a baby sister.

Poor Sybil!

And poor Madge. I know some of you won't agree, but I feel sorry for her. She must have been torn in two and run ragged for most of the time her children were little. Torn between the school (which Mlle consults her about on an almost daily basis) and her family; torn between trying to make up for the absence of Dick and Mollie to their chidlren versus caring for her own children; torn between looking after delicate, difficult Joey and fragile Robin (her first children, effectively) versus her own kids, who are all strong and healthy and very young (thus not requiring the sort of emotional guidence Jo does); torn between sharing the last moments of a child who is possibly dying versus comforting the child that is distraught after causing the accident.

What would you do in those dilemmas? So she got in wrong here and there (OK, a lot of the time), but in most cases she couldn't do both and had to choose.

And don't forget her own upbringing. She probably didn't see a while lot of her own parents when young, and then lost them when she was 12. She didn't have an example of good child rearing to learn from. When she's at the school, and is less emotionally involved with the girls, she can make the right choices, but in her own family, she struggles - guilt v love v duty. She'd have spent her whole life been taught to sacrifice love to duty probably...

Rambling now. Must stop.

ETA: Ha! Finally escaped from 'Meeting the Escort Mistress'. Only taken me nine months.

 


#28:  Author: DawnLocation: Leeds, West Yorks PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:43 pm


Really interesting Caroline

Thinking further, she's pitchforked into being Mrs Russell and in effect becoming an ambassador for the san, hosting gatherings of doctors and being expected to run things for them - I should imagine she was also expected to lead the "wives" and also the expat community of patients

She also had little things like Stacie to cope with


I'm sure in her situation I would have concentrated on Dick and Mollie's kids as they weren't hers and would feel more of a sacred charge.

 


#29:  Author: SusanLocation: Carlisle PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:11 am


I feel sorry for Sybil, she is very hard done by. She must never have had her parents to herself. She wasn't the only child this happened too but it wasn't easy.

Love your points Caroline - I think we are used to seeing Madge as the strong Miss Bettany as she starts the school and forget what a shock the whole marriage and being responsible for her own children would be like for her. Also dealing with schoolgirls is a lot different to dealing with babies and toddlers. This still doesn't excuse her (and Jem's) dealings with Sybil especially over the Needlework College - but again these books were written in the era when children (epecially daughters) were expected to do as their parents said until they got married.

 


#30:  Author: ChangnoiLocation: New Mexico, USA PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:58 pm


I never particularly liked Sybil. I don't have any problem with her behavior in the later books; she's a good prefect and all, but she's not anyone I would ever have been friends with. She always seemed a bit dull.

I really wanted to see her go to Kensington School of Whatsit to do her embroidery. To me, it seemed like Sybil was one of those characters who had been written all the way from Three Go solely to do this, just like Elfie Woodward is written all the way from the beginning of her story arc to grow up to be a games mistress. Very dedicated, not very good at other things. So to have Sybil go to Australia and then get married off and written out of the series seems like it falls awfully flat. I felt the same way when Mary Burnett got married, actually--she was a "born student" who never wanted to anything except teach. And since no one else in EBD-land got to go to this embroidery school, it would have been really nice to see Sybil do it. She could have been a single woman doing church embroidery, having a nice single existence, occasionally showing up at the school to give them some stuff for their chapels or Sale or whatever...instead she goes and marries someone. It makes me sad.

I would like Sybil to get divorced and start over again. It is 1970 by the end of the series, after all.

 


#31:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:15 pm


Hear that groaning, grinding noise? That's EBD turning in her grave at the thought of divorce for any of her characters!

 


#32:  Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:34 pm


Changnoi wrote:
It is 1970 by the end of the series, after all.


Is it 1970 in the Chalet World? Confused

Sorry I'm confuddled - doesn't take much Wink

 


#33:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:13 am


No, it would be more likely to be around 1960 or the late 1950s if the books are dated in the usual manner. That's one of the criticisms often levelled at the end of the series, that it is published in 1970, but the feeling of it is far more 1950s.

 


#34:  Author: patmacLocation: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:36 am


I, too like Caroline's points about Madge. I wondered sometimes if she thought, when she married Jem, that she could 'have it all' - Mlle would run the school day to day but she would still be 'Madame' and make the major decisions AND have a few nice children with plenty of help for the hard work AND a husband and social life as 'Mrs Russell'.

Not many women manage all that successfully, even today.

 


#35:  Author: Sarah_LLocation: Leeds PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:44 pm


Does it actually say anywhere that Sybil was prevented from going to the Needlework School? I know it was very hard to get in, and I was wondering if it was possible she'd failed to meet the entrance criteria. I remember Josette not wanting to go to Australia, as her reaction at the news is shown in the books, but I don't recall reading Sybil's thoughts on the matter.

 


#36:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:09 pm


Even if she had done her needlework course, EBD would probably have just married her off and made her pack in her career! Daisy Venables qualified as a doctor and won a load of awards in the process, and then EBD made her pack it in, and Julie Lucy's career as a barrister was ended before it'd begun! Surely by the 1950s some of the girls would have had careers as well as homes, especially as they were mostly wealthy enough to afford "help" in the house. The attitude kind of annoys me - no-one seems to find it a big decision to give up their career: it's just taken for granted that they will.

 


#37:  Author: LottieLocation: Humphrey's Corner PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:30 pm


Alison H wrote:
Surely by the 1950s some of the girls would have had careers as well as homes, especially as they were mostly wealthy enough to afford "help" in the house. The attitude kind of annoys me - no-one seems to find it a big decision to give up their career: it's just taken for granted that they will.


If they were wealthy enough to afford "help" in the house they were wealthy enough for the man to support his wife and family - if she went out to work it implied he couldn't afford to keep her in the manner to which she was accustomed. In the 1950s, and even into the start of the 1960s, it wasn't done for a married woman with a family to work outside the home, she would be fully occupied running the house - ordering meals, overseeing any servants, keeping household accounts and paying the bills when they were sent in by the tradesmen. Then there would be necessary social engagements outside the house, and voluntary duties like visiting the poor, organising church fetes, and other such suitable ladylike occupations. An upper middle or upper class lady wouldn't have had time for a full-time paid job! Even into the 1970s my father wouldn't let me advertise for babysitting work to susidize my pocket money because it would imply that he couldn't afford to keep me!

 


#38:  Author: Cazx as guest PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:15 pm


I feel that Sybil is one of the most hard done by characters in the whole series. As someone said earlier Margot did a lot worse than Sybil but got away with it, maybe throwing a bookend at someone classed as nice naughtiness is EBD's mind? I think that the early problems with Sybil all stem from Madge. In my opinion Madge was not especially close to her daughters. as is shown in prefects when Madge has no idea that Ailie is the May queen. Sybil probably married her Aussie so to be on the opposite side of the world from her mother!

 


#39:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:11 pm


Madge says to Joey (in Future, I think) that she wanted quiet domesticated daughters. Presumably ones who would marry doctors and produce lots of children and open W.I. fetes etc. So I think she was disappointed in all 3 of her girls. Especially poor Ailie whom everyone was hoping would be a boy before she was born!

 


#40:  Author: claireLocation: South Wales PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:07 pm


EBD says in a few books (can't remember if any of them are chalets or not) that 'daddy thinks it's wrong for girls to work and take jobs from girls who need to earn a living', I think she may well be of the same opinion. If it's a career, that's not too bad (providing any husband comes first) but just a job - no

 


#41:  Author: patmacLocation: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:34 pm


I went back to work when my second child was six and my m-in-law made no secret of the fact that she thoroughly disapproved. Most of my friends thought I was mad to go back when I didn't 'have' to. My husband (now ex) still blames the break up of our marriage on my return to work and getting 'ideas'.

That was the norm in the sixties and even the seventies, let alone the 50s when EBD was writing.

 


#42:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent, England PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:40 pm


claire wrote:
EBD says in a few books (can't remember if any of them are chalets or not) that 'daddy thinks it's wrong for girls to work and take jobs from girls who need to earn a living', I think she may well be of the same opinion. If it's a career, that's not too bad (providing any husband comes first) but just a job - no


In 'The Chalet School at War', PB, Chapter 9, Gardens and Gardening, page 78:

Enid Sothern, an impish-looking person of fifteen, smiled, "I'd never meant to do anything but stay at home and help Mums. I've no need to work, and Dad says it's absolutely wicked for girls who have plenty to take the work from girls who haven't. With this wretched war on I would be a V.A.D. as soon as I'm old enough. But that's got to wait a year or two, unfortunately. In the meantime, I'm knitting for all I'm worth. However, Dorothy is the most ambitious of the lot of us. She wants to be a surgeon, if you please."

 


#43:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:44 am


My ex was like yours, Patmac. he wanted the income that I earned, but didn't want me to do the work associated with it. How many times did I hear the words 'But you finish work at three-thirty, so you should do all the housework.' This on an evening when I had five hours' worth of marking and lesson preparation to do!

 




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