The CBB :: View topic - A Problem for the Chalet School

#1: A Problem for the Chalet School Author: Rachael,

Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 1:32 pm

Sorry everyone - I wasn't around earlier this week although you could have started it yourselves!! No summary Starters for discussion: Fave/worst scenes? Views on the "class" issues raised in this book? Rosamund - is she too "pi"? Joan - is she believable and do you like her? Thoughts on the the Trips - are we starting to see them grow up a little? Anything else?

#2: Author: Ruth, Location: Lincolnshire, England

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:06 am

My favourite scene would be when Joan turns up for 'the evening' all dolled up.Haven't any least favourite scenes that I can think yet. I don't think Rosamund is Pi. I hate Joan - she needs a good hard kick on the back of her skirt!The triplets do appear to be growing up here.The class issues are put over very well. Joan is a nasty piece of work - she is friends with Rosamund until she gets to go to the Chalet School, then she is afraid that Rosamund will get on in the world better than her.

#3: Author: Rosea, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:23 pm

Favourite scene - I also like the progressive games evening. Joan getting dolled up and the others reactions. I am not sure about least favourite scene - it has been quite a while since I read it. But I did always feel uncomfortable with the way the class issues are portrayed - with regard to both Joan and Rosamund. The way Rosamund's family is portrayed was quite patronising. And although the chalet school is not supposed to be snobbish, this is not conveyed very well! I like Rosamund, I think her uncertainities are easy to identify with. I don't like Joan, especially her tendency towards bullying but I do have sympathy for her. It can't be easy to find yourself somewhere where the norms and values are so different from what you are used to. Overall I enjoyed this book, although it is not a standout favourite.

#4: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:20 pm

Favourite scene - I loved the progressive games evening. What a shock Joan gave the school with her clothes, hair and make-up. I did find that EBD was patronising about class all through this book. Whereas Rosamund's family was rather looked down on by EBD, she praises Rosamund for trying to be and speak the way all the other girls do. It's the scene between Mary-Lou and Jack Maynard that I dislike the most - when he is so snobbish about Joan. I may not like Joan as a character, but I do feel sorry for her as she is completely out of her depth at the CS, and she makes a lot of mistakes, but the outright condemnation of her when no-one has really given her a friendly talk to let her know where she is going wrong doesn't show the school in a good light. That is one of the major problems with the CS. We are expected to understand that everything at the CS is wonderful, ad the girls are expected to conform, almost by osmosis, but there are some people in this world who actually need to have things explained to the, and no-one at the CS does this. For example, was Joan ever given a list of the school rules? So how can she be expected to conform to the rules if she doesn't know them? I think that the triplets do start to grow up a little in this book, but it does become even clearer how sheltered their upbringing has been.

#5: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:38 pm

I really like this one, every one knows at least one person who is like Joan in real life and she does come across as quite real to me I really like Rosamund, don't think she's pi and feel her reaction at the beginning is justified as she's worried about being pitched into a completely different culture and with people who have a very different way of life and from what they expect of it in the future. EBD states that the CS (and her presumably) aren't snobs but several things do come across snobby as that Rosamund is ok as she tries to adapt to the whole CS way of life, and that she has some of those traits there already, because her mum modelled herself on her employer. I would agree that Jack saying Joan is different because she expected to leave school at 15 etc is very patronising

#6: Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:44 pm

This was one of the first CS books I read, and when I re-read it years later it held up fairly well. No scenes stand out particularly strongly, good or bad, but the class distinctions come across very strongly. The CS girls (and teachers and parents) do come across as unconsciously snobby (or at the least very patronising) with the basic assumption that you would need adopt the mores and manners of the school in order to become a 'nice, well bred girl'. Rosamund at the beginning appears to be a 'nice well bred girl', but it is seen as somewhat surprising that this is so. Joan stands out very realistically I think, as does Rosamund. They're both struggling to adapt to an environment that is very alien to them, and where they really don't know many of the ground rules and are a long way from anything familiar. The book also dramatically illustrates just how sheltered and priviliged the other girls really are, and how isolated an environment they live in. And a classic EBDism - Joan and Rosamund seem to be about the same age in Problems, but Joan is described a s a few years older in later books.

#7: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:49 pm

Reading all these comments are making me jealous. I've never read this book so I recently bought it off Ebay. Only problem is that I've had it delivered to my home, and I'm currently at uni and so won't get my hands on it until the middle of next week. I think I'll like it as EBD didn't discuss class issues in depth in any of the other CS books, and so this makes an fun change. It'll also be an interesting historical study as it will give me an idea of how important class was in the early 1950s.

#8: Author: Catherine_B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:20 pm

Well Sarah, you can always get a copy from the Oxford CS Library that is my collection! By the way did the two I sent you reach your p'hole? I hope I delivered them to the right college Confused

#9: Author: LadyGuinevere, Location: Leicester

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:38 am

Fave/worst scenes? I also enjoyed the progressive games evening, though not just for the Joan issue. One of the games they play is similar to one we play every Christmas with my family, so I like that Smile

Can't think of any worse ones, but I' sure there were a couple. Views on the "class" issues raised in this book? Conisering where EBD was coming from on it, I think she did quite well on it. Well, most of the time. Rosamund - is she too "pi"? Not at all! She's just the kind of girl I was Smile

Joan - is she believable and do you like her? She is very believeable, I know several, but I have to say I most definitely do not like her. Thoughts on the the Trips - are we starting to see them grow up a little? Oh definitely. I'm of the opinion EBD was getting bored of waiting for them to age, which is why Len and Con at least advance so quickly for their age. Too much is put on Len for a 12 year old though IMHO. Anything else? When I read this as a child, I wasn't really that fond of it. Possibly considering it was the second to last I added to my childhood collection and therefore less read, but also perhaps because I didn't approach the subject matter in thesame way. But I reasd it recently, and was surprised to actually enjoy it! ~LadyG

#10: Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:35 pm

I first read this as a teenager and I really enjoyed it at the time because it was the first CS book I'd read in which class is a prominent issue. I went to a comprehensive, identified with Rosamund and had a friend who literally was Joan in both character and looks. However, re-reading it more recently I couldn't help feeling something of a class traitor. The narrative of the story encourages the reader to look down on Joan because her background has made her 'cheap' and I didn't feel comfortable reading it and knowing that I 'belong to people who finish school at fifteen'. As a result I've gone off it completely. Oh, and the fact that Mary-Lou sticks her nose in again got on my nerves - why couldn't EBD have written a book in which she takes a back seat for a change?

#11: a problem Author: mohini, Location: india

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 6:01 pm

Fave/worst scenes? No Fave or worst scenes Views on the "class" issues raised in this book? I think the class issue was mentioned in Exploits where Biddy was to be taught in school so that later she can become maid to Robin. To tell the truth I really did never understand the calss issue in England. Even in Enid Blyton there is the difference shown in her stories. Rosamund - is she too "pi"? I like Rosamund and do not think she is too "pi" Joan - is she believable and do you like her? Jaon is believable but not a likable chracter Thoughts on the the Trips - are we starting to see them grow up a little? Trips are shown to be growing up. Anything else? I did not understand what was the Problem in the story.

#12: Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 7:59 pm

I think the 'problem' was Joan herself, Mohini, as she is so different to the other 'real Chalet School' girls. But there are so many 'problem' girls throughout the series (Grizel, Thekla, Eustacia, etc) that I thought it was a strange choice for the title too!

#13: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 5:36 pm

The problem with Joan was her family - definitely lower class, and she'd been allowed far too much freedom to associate with boys. Whatever the problems were with other girls such as Grizel, Thekla and Eustacia, their backgrounds were absolutely impeccable, and EBD does make it quite clear that it was the methods by which they had been brought up that made it difficult for them to fit in at the CS.

#14: problem Author: mohini, Location: india

Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 5:39 pm

so how was Diana Skelton (Bride Leads the Chalet school) different from Joan?

#15: Re: problem Author: Rachel, Location: Plotting in my lair

Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:30 pm

mohini wrote:

so how was Diana Skelton (Bride Leads the Chalet school) different from Joan?

Obviously a better class of criminal )

#16: Author: Catherine_B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:46 pm

I guess the Skeltons acquired their riches slightly more gradually and also through industry rather than winning the pools (itself a terribly lower class thing to do, can't see any CS family playing the pools!). And I don't remember any suggestion that the Skeltons were actually lower class to begin with, I think the problem as far as Diana was concerned was that she had been spoilt and/or let the money go to her head, rather than having suitable humility & realising that material wealth does not in itself a good person make.

#17: Author: Beth, Location: Back in Durham...nearly finished a whole year!!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 3:02 pm

I wonder whether Rosamund, rather than Joan, was also a 'problem'? She had real difficulties about worrying whether she would fit it, and how the other girls would react to her, given her situation in life. I also wonder whether EBD was suggesting that the problem was for the girls of the school who were there to start with - a sort of test of character to see if they could treat girls who were from a different background to themselves as they would 'one of their own'. I've not expressed myself terribly well, but I hope you can see the gist of my thoughts. Put the confusion down to being rather emotional about being in the last week of a beloved school career!

#18: problem Author: mohini, Location: india

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:04 pm

But Diana was said to be a snob who held her cup and crocked her little finger. And what about sophie hamel whoses father had a shop? And one wonders what was the difference between Anna and Mother's help or Nursery Help ( Beth or maria Marani) If I remember correctly, in most books specially those like Jane Eyre the goerness were not allowed to eat with family.

#19: Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:19 pm

Early on in the book Joan tells Rosamund: "I don't know who you think you are, putting on all them airs. Your mum was only a servant and mine was a young lady in a shop." I think this would suggest that Sophie Hamel's father would be seen as more middle class than working class. That said, doesn't Thekla look down on Sophie for being a shopkeeper's daughter? (I think it's in Exploits but can't check as I don't have it yet).

#20: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 7:43 pm

Beth wrote:

I wonder whether Rosamund, rather than Joan, was also a 'problem'?

There is a mention in the book of Rosamund being a problem as she has never done any French or German at all (neither have a lot of other girls but most coming at that age had a touch of French)

#21: Author: LadyGuinevere, Location: Leicester

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 9:37 pm

Quote:

I think this would suggest that Sophie Hamel's father would be seen as more middle class than working class. That said, doesn't Thekla look down on Sophie for being a shopkeeper's daughter? (I think it's in Exploits but can't check as I don't have it yet).

I remember this too. Thekla's only interested in gentry by the sound of it, I think I remember her father was a Junker. I would have considered Sophie Hamel middle class by the days standards, but new middle class, rather than traditional middle class, which is howI always thought of the Bettany's. ~LadyG

#22: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 11:59 pm

Quote:

And one wonders what was the difference between Anna and Mother's help or Nursery Help ( Beth or maria Marani)

I think a mothers help who is known to the family (eg Beth) would be seen as a very different type of person to one who is a local employee (eg Rosli). I suspect that Beth would be seen more as an friend and equal of the family and Rosli as an employee who had her place and was expected to stick to it. Can't imagine Beth being made to sleep in the night nursery as Madge makes Rosa.

#23: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:03 pm

I actually really like this book, and was shocked when it made the shortlist for the worst book in the polls we were doing. I love the triplets in it, Rosamund is a really nice character, Joan is horrible, but that creates the story. I even quite like MaryLou in this one!

#24: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 9:12 pm

I always took a mothers help as being more an elder sister/cousin role, part of the family, just helping out - and not really getting paid just 'pocket money'

#25: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 7:50 am

Mary-Lou wrote:

I wouldn't have her as a gift with a pound of tea-

I was immediately antagonistic towards Joan. She's a bully, a show-off, and, at least for the first part of the book, immensely self-satisfied with it. By the end, I do feel very sorry for her, but never come to like her or entirely trust her reformation. Rosamund, on the other hand, is a sympathetic character throughout. I think I’m probably missing some of the “class” nuances. Most of Joan’s problems seem to cut across classes as far as I can tell, and I thought EBD meant the Rosamund/Joan contrast to point that out. I get the impression that she is reacting against books of the type that describe the “lower class” of girl as rude, crude and impolite. For example, in as The Girl Scouts’ Captain (1925), the objective of the heroine (and the movement) is to go into the slums and reform a group of back-talking, boy-crazy, low class “flappers.” EBD, on the other hand, makes it clear that Joan’s mother would never condone rudeness and cursing, even though Joan indulges. She seems to be trying to take the route of the Alcott mother, who, ages earlier, dismisses the idea that a boot-black isn’t realistic unless he uses bad language, before pitching her offending sons’ literature into the fire. I think that, for her era, she did a pretty good job, though there’s certainly condescension, particularly concerning the make-up, dress, cleanliness and “boys” issues. I can see, for example, getting very irritated at the Jack-ML conversation, even though Jack’s objective is to have ML see that her point of view isn’t the only one. Actually, except for the leaving-school-at-15 part, I really liked the Jack-ML scene. And the ML method of getting through to Joan seems far more likely to work than Miss A’s preaching, as far as I’m concerned, says Kathy who does not react well to lectures, and admires ML for putting in the effort.

#26: Problem for the Chalet School Author: Le crapaud,

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:20 pm

I am new to this and afraid that I will be shouted at, but I rather think that if I had had a very similar conversation with my father/similar as ML and Jack did, I would have been told the same thing. Perhaps that's my background speaking, but I do try to look at it from all angles, but I'd say that exactly the same class issues are around today. I loved the shock that the school received with Joan, especially about the makeup - I remember being told myself that 'a modest amount' was sufficient (aged 1 Cool

, and equally, as a prefect, sending kids off to scrub their faces. I think that EBD shows very well that being poor does not mean that you are vulgar - Rosamund is properly brought up - it's more the attitude than the wealth and this can be seen through her other books, and in life. I suppose it's the whole 'respectable poor' thing. I didn't like Joan at all but I did enjoy reading about her, like someone else said though, I didn't really trust her transformation - but perhaps I am a snob myself.[/quote]

#27: Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:59 pm

You shouldn't be worried about being shouted at - this thread in particular exists to air people's opinions and encourage debate. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses.

#28: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:30 pm

Perhaps EBD's attitude is a hangover from the Victorian era, when there was a clear difference between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor.

#29: Deserving poor Author: le crapaud, Location: Bristol

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:37 pm

Oh yes, definitely. Think about "Rose in Bloom" (LM Alcott, I think) when she sets up a home for the 'gentle poor', they seem to be seen as more deserving than the real poor. I suppose in a way because they would remember earlier times and so their situation would be more of a change, whilst those who had grown up in it would not feel it so badly as they had known no difference? However it probably more comes down to an idea of inherited 'gentleness' - that people had a natural position in society so those who had dropped in the world did not deserve to be there. You get the same thing at the other end of society - the newly wealthy are considered to be a bit dodgy even now, though that idea has been around since, I guess, the emergent middle classes in the 1800s. While those who are poor(er) but with an old family are still given some degree of respect. Sad that it hasn't changed that much.

#30: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:26 pm

The difference between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor, is that the deserving poor made a real effort to keep themselves clean, feed the children, darn and patch their clothes, whilst the undeserving poor gave way under the cirumstances and lived in squalor. That's why charity was given to the deserving poor, and the undeserving poor were evicted for non-payment of rent.

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