The CBB :: View topic - Vindictiveness at the Chalet School

OOAO's nastiness isn't so obvious, but there are little bits about her that make me cringe inside. I was shocked by the passage in Kenya, when Jo Scott is 'admitted' to the gang, which OOAO doesn't 'allow' very often. There's just something about the undertone of the whole episode which makes her seem almost like the bullies at my old school, just with a slightly nicer veneer.

You don't mean Sophy Hamel? How is she - chubby as ever? When she was at school she was always known as Fatty." - Jo in Two Sams

GotNerd wrote:
OOAO's nastiness isn't so obvious, but there are little bits about her that make me cringe inside. I was shocked by the passage in Kenya, when Jo Scott is 'admitted' to the gang, which OOAO doesn't 'allow' very often. There's just something about the undertone of the whole episode which makes her seem almost like the bullies at my old school, just with a slightly nicer veneer.

am I the only one who finds the pleasure some of the characters seem to take in getting a "rise" out of others rather unpleasant?

“Listen to me. All of you! Not a word about this out of any one of you! I’m not going to be chaffed to death about it and if it goes further than this room, it’ll go the entire round. Do you hear, you three? You’re to tell no one.”

As for Jem, I've never seen what's wrong with that comment! I've always just read it as him being able to discipline Joey where no-one else can as effectively.

After the packing case incident the first thing she says is

Quote:

It's the same when she and Mary-Lou have to climb the lakeside cliff at night at the Tiernsee!

I've always taken it to mean that Joey is sick of having every single silly things she's ever done thrown back at her, constantly! It's one thing reminiscing about it with her friends, or even being the one to tell the story herself, but knowing that you're essentially The School Legend must have grated at times, however much she loved the school.

To be honest, I find her attitude in the later books a bit like that of a certain kind of celebrity today, who basks in public attention when it's on their own terms, but tries to clamp down on any stories that aren't, and complains about the attention when it doesn't suit. Which I suppose makes sense - quite apart from her fame as an author, she is the CS celebrity par excellence, and I suppose you could see her personality, by the later books, as being as much moulded by that level of minor 'fame' and scrutiny as by any other forces.

Actually, that's an interesting line of thought, to think of Joey as having a very ambivalent relationship with her own public image as Spirit of the School. Most of the time it looks as if she's perfectly happy with it - you could even say she seeks it out, by making sure all the new girls get to know her, retaining the same 'look' associated with her for years and years, and just by being at the school so much - but then you get moments when she seems to worry about being talked about, which suggests she'd like a break from being a school legend.

Oooh, Miss Tinsel - I like your assessment. Very convincing ...!!!

I'm learning that she's not as popular as she is in the books ... I have always read the books through children's glasses (if you see what I mean!) and, on that account, have until now taken her as she is and been convinced by the person we're presented with.

Reading these posts though has made me use different glasses to view people through. I don't think that Joey would be a pleasant person to have as a friend because she's far too bossy and interfering. But I do think that if one reads her as written and doesn't delve into thing too far, she's bearable. She certainly gives some kind of scaffolding to the books.

It's just that she'd give just as much scaffolding if EBD were slightly less overheated in her veneration of her favourite character. It's why some people find what gets called 'Joey-bashing' on here (which I always think is an interesting term in itself, because it makes criticism or even just dissent from the position of adoring Joey sound really violent!)

To get back to the subject of vindictiveness, in my experience a lot of it can go on in schools, and girls' schools can get very bitchy, and I think that there's much less of that in the CS than in a lot of real and fictional schools.

One of the reasons that there is less bitchiness at the CS might be the fact that for four days a week they are struggling in a language not their own! And don't they struggle? Even girls who have been at the school since Juniors are clocking up fines - until they are prefects and then somehow they are fluent, though sometimes with strong British accents.

One of the reasons that there is less bitchiness at the CS might be the fact that for four days a week they are struggling in a language not their own!

It's why some people find what gets called 'Joey-bashing' on here (which I always think is an interesting term in itself, because it makes criticism or even just dissent from the position of adoring Joey sound really violent!) upsetting, because it's reading against the way EBD intended us to read.

Then, of course, there's the problem that a person who is attracted to the CS because of its coziness and general lack of bitchiness may be repulsed by bitchiness in general, including bitchiness towards CS characters. I personally tend to see the CS heroines as friends, and can't imagine ripping them apart behind their backs this way. For that matter, non-friends would have to be pretty thorough-going villains before I'd be able to participate without feeling guilty.

You may think of them as if they were real-life friends who deserve to be defended against verbal attacks, and I respect your right to do so - I'm sure you're not alone. I don't, however, think it's fair to imply that other CBBers should feel as though they are being 'bitchy' or vindictive because they don't share the view that EBD's imaginary heroines deserve the same unquestioning support we give to our real-life friends who can be hurt by back-stabbing or disloyalty.

I think the atmosphere on the board is generally a very nice one, with a nice mix of affectionate eye-rolling and exasperated pointing out of EBDisms, quirks, inconsistencies and moments of Joey-related favouritism. Maybe it's because I don't generally read the drabbles (I need to do some work!), but I honestly don't see the outpouring of 'repellent' approaches to the CS that you mention. Surely it's a matter of avoiding the kind of thing you find upsetting, rather than suggesting that people entirely avoid criticising EBD heroines? There's room for us all on the CBB, isn't there?

EBD doesn't really address it, because her usual position is that most people pick up the languages pretty quickly, but in practice I wonder whether you'd get things like French girls being more extrovert and taking the lead on French days etc. or language abilities governing popularity...? (Or is it pure coincidence that Joey, Mary-Lou and Len are all unusually good at languages and popular?)

& Len says - I think in Future - that all the responsibility is getting to her and she doesn't want to be a prefect just yet, but the subject's never referred to again.

I'd like to've seen different aspects of people's characters explored more, e.g. there's a scene in Trials in which we see Hilda looking drawn and strained because she's the one who has to bear the responsibility of dealing with Naomi's accident, and I think the storyline with Phil Maynard's illness and how Joey and Jack dealt with it could have been developed more. & Len says - I think in Future - that all the responsibility is getting to her and she doesn't want to be a prefect just yet, but the subject's never referred to again.

And Charles' fragility and appendicitis - mentioned and expanded to a degree, but coupled with Phil's polio, Elinor could've brought out more in Joey's character and taken it along different lines than the usual ...

She clearly was capable of powerful storytelling, as there are examples of it scattered through the books. Yet more often than not she shied away from it. I wonder why - maybe she was wary of the age of her readers, or maybe she felt it was just too much like hard work. Who knows?

or have I messed up the formatting?

I have to say I've always felt slightly cheated by the numerous occasions on which we're told Bill or Hilda gave some miscreant 'a dressing down she had never bettered' without being told what was said! I know it would be dull to get every single scolding verbatim, but given that girls go in dread of their tongues and their ability to make bad girls weep like waterspouts is such a part of both of their characters, I'd have liked to get more detail of one or two lectures!

But maybe HSP CBBers would interpret aspects of the social interchanges in the books differently from non-HSP CBBers.

"Bernhilda, I see you're putting on weight - like me, alas! ... Frieda, you're very thin."

"How is she - chubby as ever?"

It's interesting that, even when Herr Marani tears into Joey over her truly nasty descriptions of Frau Berlin's appearance, he seems concerned with lack of respect to an older person rather than with the weight-specific focus of the comments. I'm not always clear whether EBD just didn't see comments on the fat/scrawny axis as offensive, or whether she expected us to see them as acceptable joking between friends.

He tells Joey that she shouldn't make rude comments about someone so much older than she is, and says that Frau Berlin isn't very "charming" in appearance as if he's actually agreeing with Joey. Whatever your attitudes towards weight, it's hardly acceptable to say that someone looks like a scarlet hippopotamus and that if you looked like them (whether that's because of their weight or any other aspect of their appearance) then you'd go and drown yourself.

Frau Berlin isn't very "charming" in appearance as if he's actually agreeing with Joey. Whatever your attitudes towards weight, it's hardly acceptable to say that someone looks like a scarlet hippopotamus and that if you looked like them (whether that's because of their weight or any other aspect of their appearance) then you'd go and drown yourself.

it seems an innappropriate way for an adult to speak to a child she's just met. I don't think it would have been acceptable for Samaris to say this to Jo ("I know Sophie Hamel. She's very fat.") so why is it ok for Jo to say it to her? Or are we meant to see this an example of Jo, the eternal schoolgirl?

IIRC from her biography, EBD herself wasn't the most tactful of people and could behave in a socially inappropriate way. According to a friend from the 1920s, she appeared younger than she was (in manner, not physical appearance) and she could be a tiring, if entertaining companion.

Author:	Miss Tinsel [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
No, not the name of a new pupil, but does anyone else find the level of nastiness displayed by the main characters quite off-putting? Joey and OOAO are two of the chief offenders. So many examples of them having little verbal contests with others in a way that's clearly meant to be further evidence (as if t'were needed) of their wonderfully humorous lovable selves, but which I would really not like to encounter in real life...here are some examples: "You don't mean Sophy Hamel? How is she - chubby as ever? When she was at school she was always known as Fatty." - Jo in Two Sams "Berta was always a scrag and Sophy tells me she's scraggier than ever since the babies came." (same) But who's to say what the future will bring forth. We may all of us be atom-bombed to death by that time and then no-one will need to worry," she said cheerfully. "That's a nice idea!" Miss Annersley exclaimed. "Honestly, Jo! What will you say next?" Joey giggled like a schoolgirl. "I thought that would shake you!" (Jo in Redheads) I'm frustrated I can't find more examples, or better ones, as I notice a number in each book when I'm reading them - but am I the only one who finds the pleasure some of the characters seem to take in getting a "rise" out of others rather unpleasant?

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I'm not sure I'd call it "vindictiveness" (and I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with that last quote?). I certainly hate the way that EBD has her characters constantly commenting on each other's weight (both of the too skinny and of the too fat variety) potentially pretty hurtful, but no one ever seems to have been hurt by them (the only one I can think of who ever reacts badly is Madge, and Jem immediately tells her she's fine just as she is!) I know they come across nastily to us, but I don't think that EBD thinks of them as being nasty at all, because they're not meant to hurt anyone. I know that wouldn't be an excuse in real life, and it's barely an excuse in the fictional world, but I don't think she stopped to consider for a second that no one who is meant to be as sensitive and sympathetic as Joey would ever make such comments about people's size and weight, and certainly not about her own friends to children she barely knows!

Author:	Miss Tinsel [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
No, vindictiveness probably isn't exactly the word. And none of the examples illustrate quite what I mean either. But there is something about the enjoyment of discomfiting others that does run through the books that I find disquieting. The usual reaction of the victim is to blush rather than to be upset, and EBD herself clearly sees it as a positive, as it's her favourite characters who do it most (except Len, but she's much nicer than Jo and OOAO!). I'm going to have to hunt for better examples, I think...

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I think they're all much nicer than some of the bitchy characters in Malory Towers and other school stories, but I know what you mean! I make comments like "I can't believe I'm being sent adverts for Christmas stuff in June - we could all've been run over by a bus by then," so I wouldn't've minded the bomb "joke", but I do find Joey's remarks about people's appearance - she makes a nasty comment somewhere about Ted Grantley's eyebrows! - rather unpleasant. I've spent most of my life being made fun of for being fat so I'm paranoid about the subject, but Joey and Grizel's remarks about Frau Berlin really get to me! OK, she's evidently rude and unpleasant, but they keep referring to her as "that horrid fat" woman as if "horrid" and "fat" are part of the same thing. I'd still rather go to the CS than to one of DFB or Enid Blyton's schools, though! Is it in one of the St Clare's books where they all gang up on a new girl - Mirabel? - and sabotage her prep, and then all sit and gloat when she gets into trouble about it ? The CS people are all angels compared to that lot!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I've said this somewhere else (so sorry if I'm repeating myself), but Jem's words are really sometimes very unpleasant IMO. Madge says that he can 'be nasty with Jo when he likes' - why on earth would anyone want to 'be nasty' with someone in their family (don't answer that literally - you know what I mean!)? And then his treatment of Jo when she discovers his long-lost sister - he is more concerned about people not thinking badly of him if they knew his business than being concerned for a woman who, even if not his sister (and why on earth would anyone go that distance to pretend if it were not true?), needs some help and care. Is he vindictive? I think that vindictive implies some deliberate vindictiveness on the side of the person doing the action. In that case, no, but I do think that he's concerned to preserve what he views as his own high standing at the expense of others. If that is vindictive, then I think Jem is.

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Vindictiveness at the Chalet School http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7519

Author:	GotNerd [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Joey's ridiculous attitudes to both Stacie and Joyce Linton are examples of her vindictiveness, I think. I always hated her in some of those passages. OOAO's nastiness isn't so obvious, but there are little bits about her that make me cringe inside. I was shocked by the passage in Kenya, when Jo Scott is 'admitted' to the gang, which OOAO doesn't 'allow' very often. There's just something about the undertone of the whole episode which makes her seem almost like the bullies at my old school, just with a slightly nicer veneer.

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
GotNerd wrote: OOAO's nastiness isn't so obvious, but there are little bits about her that make me cringe inside. I was shocked by the passage in Kenya, when Jo Scott is 'admitted' to the gang, which OOAO doesn't 'allow' very often. There's just something about the undertone of the whole episode which makes her seem almost like the bullies at my old school, just with a slightly nicer veneer. And what about Barbara's extreme delight at ML's gracious acceptance of her as part of the gang. Joey quite often desplays rather nasty traits when others don't immediately fall down before her. Her reaction to Anne Seymour's perfectly justifiable reproof during prep is dreadfully petty. And, of course, Anne is 'punished' for it by having Joey rescue her! Very annoying.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
It's uncomfortable to read now, but I'm not sure it's deliberate; more likely EBD trying to show how 'breezy' and 'unstuffy' Joey is? However, it reminded me of Dame Edna Everage, who surely could have been another Australian CS girl (friend of Emerence?) She said: 'I was born with a wonderful talent. The ability to laugh at other people's misfortunes!'

Author:	RubyGates [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Miss Tinsel wrote: You don't mean Sophy Hamel? How is she - chubby as ever? When she was at school she was always known as Fatty." - Jo in Two Sams I think that particular example is Joey being tactless as usual but if they did call Sophy Hamel "Fatty" then it must have been behind her back as I can't recall any instances of it being said to her face; that is vindictive. MJKB wrote: GotNerd wrote: OOAO's nastiness isn't so obvious, but there are little bits about her that make me cringe inside. I was shocked by the passage in Kenya, when Jo Scott is 'admitted' to the gang, which OOAO doesn't 'allow' very often. There's just something about the undertone of the whole episode which makes her seem almost like the bullies at my old school, just with a slightly nicer veneer. Urgh, don't get me started on OOAO If she was truly as nice as everyone thinks she is she wouldn't have any gang to which one had to be "admitted"!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Miss Tinsel wrote: am I the only one who finds the pleasure some of the characters seem to take in getting a "rise" out of others rather unpleasant? Not at all. I've always found several of EBD's 'good' characters to be regularly very rude, although she clearly doesn't intend them to seem rude to us. (Which often makes me wonder what on earth EBD herself was like a social being? Did she crash around the place conversationally, addressing all and sundry as 'my love' and 'my child', pointing out people's fatness or thinness or bushy eyebrows or the fact that other people have bigger babies/ more babies/ more male babies/ babies with more interesting colouring etc? ) I think 'vindictive' is too strong a term for most of it (though as others have said, there are instances of pure vindictiveness in things like Joey blaming Stacie for Robin's frailty etc). Most of the day to day stuff that gets on my nerves (and would have got on them far more had I lived in the CS world) is just fairly juvenile verbal one-upmanship, but EBD presents it as occurring just as much between adults as between naughty Middles. I honestly don't get why she thinks the reader will infallibly find Joey or Mary-Lou always getting the last word and getting a 'rise' out of others while never 'rising' themselves (whereupon in Mary-Lou's case there's usually an admiring throng stationed nearby to comment that you need to get up very early in the morning to put one over on OOAO etc etc) charming! It wouldn't bother me as much if we regularly saw Joey and Mary-Lou subjected to the same kind of bossiness and/or teasing they dish out so readily, but it annoys me that EBD makes it very clear that adult Joey, at least, can dish it out but not take it herself! After the packing case incident the first thing she says is Quote: “Listen to me. All of you! Not a word about this out of any one of you! I’m not going to be chaffed to death about it and if it goes further than this room, it’ll go the entire round. Do you hear, you three? You’re to tell no one.” It's the same when she and Mary-Lou have to climb the lakeside cliff at night at the Tiernsee! If EBD saw this, and incorporated it into Joey's character (that while she adores teasing others, she's actually oddly sensitive to being teased herself), it would be an interesting character trait, but she doesn't, so we're left with someone who works tirelessly at being the centre of attention, but only on her own terms. Which actually isn't that attractive!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I don't think that the weight comments are necessarily vindictive; people are always calling me scraggy/skinny/slight/whatever, and telling me that I need to get more insulation, and I make similar light-hearted to people who I know won't mind. I agree that there is some vindictiveness, but, as someone said, not nearly as bad as people like Enid Blyton! The scene mocking Gwen in MT before the pantomime is truly horrible, and would never have happened at the CS. Besides which, it isn't supposed to put much emphasis on looks; as long as you do what you can to look 'pleasing', that's all that matters, so it wouldn't be such a touchy subject there I don't think. As for Jem, I've never seen what's wrong with that comment! I've always just read it as him being able to discipline Joey where no-one else can as effectively.

Author:	hac61 [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
ChubbyMonkey wrote: As for Jem, I've never seen what's wrong with that comment! I've always just read it as him being able to discipline Joey where no-one else can as effectively. I agree with you. Some people need that which can sound "nasty" to get through to them. There again, anything these days that involves discipline seems to be termed "nastiness".

Author:	emma t [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
No, I do not think it's vindictivenness as such, I think alot of it (on Joey's part) is lack of tact. Sometimes I have thought that some characters are way too picky about certain issues; and ideals, and if someone happens not to be of the same thinking then they are put onto the side lines until they think like the ideals the Chalet School sets out. Good ideals, but you can't be an individual! The Gang have always bugged me - someone else mentioned it eariler, and I think that in a way. it is a form of vindictive being very select on who they admitt to the Gang.

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
ChubbyMonkey wrote: As for Jem, I've never seen what's wrong with that comment! I've always just read it as him being able to discipline Joey where no-one else can as effectively. Me neither. I've always found Jem to be a very affectionate brother -in-law and I think when Madge comments that Jem can be nasty she's simply implying that Jem provides the stricter side of fathering that EBD seems to think is so necessary! And when Jem is strict with Joey after the whole Margot scenario, well I can understand that too. I think he's (justifiably) worked up about the thought of possibly seeing his long lost sister. Some of later Joey's comments are baffling, but I don't think they're vindictive and they're obviously not supposed to be even rude or tactless which gives the impression that EBD had a bit of a bizarre outlook on life (as Cosimo's Jackal said ). As for Joey not wanting the packing case story to do the rounds, well, considering how often her past misdemeanours are flung in her face it's not surprising she doesn't want another one added! And in Summer Term she does tell Gretchen the deep dark secret of how she was turned green so she's not afraid to embarrass herself to help out her friend's daughter. And at least Joey does rise occasionally, unlike Mary-Lou. Those scenes are some of the most annoying in the entire series. All in all, I'd agree with the others. Out of all GO depictions, the CS is the least vindictive school I've come across.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I am still not convinced about Jem - it's the manner in which he says these things that I find unpleasant. I agree with Chubbymonkey's comment that Joey was encountering someone who wouldn't stand any nonsence from her and consequently was more than happy to discipline her but, for some reason, it's the way in which it's done that makes me dislike it. And I do agree that these days 'discipline' is constructed as 'nastiness' (and please don't let me start on those 'talent' shows where constructive criticism is greeted by the audience with boos!!) but again, it's how it's done. Somehow everytime I read it I end up thinking badly of Jem rather than Joey. Perhaps that's it - I can't for the life of me see what Joey's done to get such a reaction. Someone was in trouble and she and Frieda tried to help. It seems to me to be just a little paranoid of Jem to think that a random stranger would appear and pose as his sister ... and even if that was the case if Joey and Frieda had not met her she would have hunted him down anyway, and would have made contact with him in order to try and get whatever it was she wanted. So if his concern was correct, all J&F have done is to bring the meeting forward sooner.

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I think it's more the fact that Joey and Frieda have gone off with this strange woman and probably told her all sorts of personal details. Considering Margot's husband was a bad lot it's maybe not all that surprising that Jem would be a bit paranoid to hear that his sister had suddenly turned up out of the blue. Joey and Frieda could have been putting themselves in danger and they have disobeyed orders anyway . Of course to the reader it's not easy to see what else they could have done in the circumstances, but Jem doesn't know all the facts yet and I forgive him for being a bit on edge.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: After the packing case incident the first thing she says is Quote: “Listen to me. All of you! Not a word about this out of any one of you! I’m not going to be chaffed to death about it and if it goes further than this room, it’ll go the entire round. Do you hear, you three? You’re to tell no one.” It's the same when she and Mary-Lou have to climb the lakeside cliff at night at the Tiernsee! I've always taken it to mean that Joey is sick of having every single silly things she's ever done thrown back at her, constantly! It's one thing reminiscing about it with her friends, or even being the one to tell the story herself, but knowing that you're essentially The School Legend must have grated at times, however much she loved the school. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to suppress your own embarrassing moments! I love how in Summer Term (I think it's that's book, anyway!) she tells Gretchen how she dyed herself green before Stephen was born. It's clearly one of the more idiotic things she's done, but she's happy to share it if it means lessening Gretchen's own embarrassment.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Nightwing wrote: I've always taken it to mean that Joey is sick of having every single silly things she's ever done thrown back at her, constantly! It's one thing reminiscing about it with her friends, or even being the one to tell the story herself, but knowing that you're essentially The School Legend must have grated at times, however much she loved the school. To be honest, I find her attitude in the later books a bit like that of a certain kind of celebrity today, who basks in public attention when it's on their own terms, but tries to clamp down on any stories that aren't, and complains about the attention when it doesn't suit. Which I suppose makes sense - quite apart from her fame as an author, she is the CS celebrity par excellence, and I suppose you could see her personality, by the later books, as being as much moulded by that level of minor 'fame' and scrutiny as by any other forces. Actually, that's an interesting line of thought, to think of Joey as having a very ambivalent relationship with her own public image as Spirit of the School. Most of the time it looks as if she's perfectly happy with it - you could even say she seeks it out, by making sure all the new girls get to know her, retaining the same 'look' associated with her for years and years, and just by being at the school so much - but then you get moments when she seems to worry about being talked about, which suggests she'd like a break from being a school legend. Maybe when she went down to Montreux to stay with Winnie Embury, she was really swanning about in dark glasses, glorying in the anonymity! She even gets recognised on Oxford St by a girl she's never met!

Author:	Miss Tinsel [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: To be honest, I find her attitude in the later books a bit like that of a certain kind of celebrity today, who basks in public attention when it's on their own terms, but tries to clamp down on any stories that aren't, and complains about the attention when it doesn't suit. Which I suppose makes sense - quite apart from her fame as an author, she is the CS celebrity par excellence, and I suppose you could see her personality, by the later books, as being as much moulded by that level of minor 'fame' and scrutiny as by any other forces. Actually, that's an interesting line of thought, to think of Joey as having a very ambivalent relationship with her own public image as Spirit of the School. Most of the time it looks as if she's perfectly happy with it - you could even say she seeks it out, by making sure all the new girls get to know her, retaining the same 'look' associated with her for years and years, and just by being at the school so much - but then you get moments when she seems to worry about being talked about, which suggests she'd like a break from being a school legend. I agree that Jo cultivates her Spirit of the School image, but I'm never very convinced by her attempts to dissuade people from talking about her misdemeanors. It often seems to me as if the lady doth protest too much! And in a way, isn't the relentless fecundity (with collusion from EBD in supplying the multiple births) simply adult Joey's way of substituting a new attention seeking device ("she's so wholesale") to replace the child Joey's "scrapes"? It means that those around her veer between concerns about her "condition" ("she mustn't be worried just now") and affectionate outrage at news at the prospect of yet another addition to her "long" family - in other words the same dynamic (she's fragile/she's extraordinary) that characterised her childhood/teens.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Oooh, Miss Tinsel - I like your assessment. Very convincing ...!!!

Author:	Miss Tinsel [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
julieanne1811 wrote: Oooh, Miss Tinsel - I like your assessment. Very convincing ...!!! Thank you! I'm guessing you can tell I'm not a great admirer of Joey's - and not alone in that, it seems!

Author:	Miss Tinsel [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
julieanne1811 wrote: I'm learning that she's not as popular as she is in the books ... I have always read the books through children's glasses (if you see what I mean!) and, on that account, have until now taken her as she is and been convinced by the person we're presented with. Reading these posts though has made me use different glasses to view people through. I don't think that Joey would be a pleasant person to have as a friend because she's far too bossy and interfering. But I do think that if one reads her as written and doesn't delve into thing too far, she's bearable. She certainly gives some kind of scaffolding to the books. Yes, I have very similar feelings about it. I kind of assumed everyone would love her (based on authorial pressure to do so when I read the books as a child) so finding this forum and discovering that is really not the case has been wonderful! And I agree about the scaffolding; she does have a purpose. But she'd be soooo unpleasant as a person irl.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Joey does absolutely give scaffolding to the series, which is important. It's just that she'd give just as much scaffolding if EBD were slightly less overheated in her veneration of her favourite character. It's why some people find what gets called 'Joey-bashing' on here (which I always think is an interesting term in itself, because it makes criticism or even just dissent from the position of adoring Joey sound really violent!) upsetting, because it's reading against the way EBD intended us to read, while others find it liberating for the same reason. If you think about it, who actually dislikes Joey in the series? Frau Berlin, Thekla Von Stift, Matron Besley, pre-reform Eustacia Benson, Miss Bubb -- all, with the exception of Eustacia, more or less hardened villains, certainly massively unsympathetic characters! Joey's all-round loveableness is one of EBD's real blind spots, which I think is borne out by the fact that even on the CBB, where all of us adore the series as a whole, a significant number of people get impatient with Joey at different points.

Author:	Nightwing [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: It's just that she'd give just as much scaffolding if EBD were slightly less overheated in her veneration of her favourite character. It's why some people find what gets called 'Joey-bashing' on here (which I always think is an interesting term in itself, because it makes criticism or even just dissent from the position of adoring Joey sound really violent!) I feel quite violent about it, actually, sometimes! I don't have a problem with people disliking Joey, even though I'm always going to try and defend her, but I hate it when even the most general discussions get turned into discussions about What's Wrong With Joey. It's a little ironic, I guess - she's such an important part of the series that even her detractors can't stop talking about her! While we're on the subject of terms, one of my favourite bits of fannish slang is "wifing" a character - loving him or her to bits, despite their faults! I am definitely a Joey wife

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
I really appreciate the storyline in New Mistress in which Kathie takes an initial dislike to Mary-Lou - EBD acknowledges that, whilst Mary-Lou has many good qualities, she can be annoying as well 9as can the best of people), one of Mary-Lou's friends (Hilary?) handles the very awkward situation of pointing out a friend's faults well, and Mary-Lou handles the equally awkward situation of having your faults pointed out well. No-one's perfect, and it's good to see that acknowledged. It doesn't happen with Joey in the later books, and even in the early books everyone apparently adores her: we're told that Frau Braun thinks there's no-one like her, and that Frau Pfeifen almost weeps for joy at seeing her and Madge again. Miss Wilson even attributes Eustacia's running away to the fact that Jo didn't want to be friendsly with her: I always feel sorry for Jo there! & in the later books she's involved so often in things that don't concern her that it becomes almost comedic: she turns up at the first Spot Supper trotting out "I was the Chalet School's first ever pupil" like a sitcom character with a catchphrase. It's a shame, because it detracts from the character who, as everyone's said, provides scaffolding to the series. Even Joey herself seems to be protesting by the end : when Hilda asks her to take on Althea, she points out that she's got umpteen children to look after as it is and really can't cope with any more! To get back to the subject of vindictiveness, in my experience a lot of it can go on in schools, and girls' schools can get very bitchy, and I think that there's much less of that in the CS than in a lot of real and fictional schools.

Author:	MJKB [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Alison H wrote: To get back to the subject of vindictiveness, in my experience a lot of it can go on in schools, and girls' schools can get very bitchy, and I think that there's much less of that in the CS than in a lot of real and fictional schools. I agree there. Apart from the obnoxious Jack,there is very little bullying and the girls are friendly and courteous, and really know how to look after newcomers. Re Joey, the only time I remember an authorial check on her behaviour is in Eustacia, can't remember exactly where it is, but there is a comment about how it's good for Joey not to always have things her own way all the time. It's a pity EBD set her up in the later books as a kind of plaster saint.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Alison H wrote: To get back to the subject of vindictiveness, in my experience a lot of it can go on in schools, and girls' schools can get very bitchy, and I think that there's much less of that in the CS than in a lot of real and fictional schools. Absolutely - virtually the only times you have a CS character being actively unpleasant it's either a maladjusted new girl who later reforms (OK, with one or two exceptions), or one of the feuding storylines in the weaker late books, where someone already at the school takes a fairly random dislike to a new girl for a plot device, and in both cases their behaviour is usually roundly condemned. Which is nice, compared to the way Enid Blyton always seems to rather approve of verbal viciousness administered as 'blunt plain-talking' to girls who don't fit in at her schools. Not to mention the physical bullying in the way characters like Gwen at MT keep getting pushed into the pool or ducked. But I think what the OP was actually talking about was mostly the kind of verbal one-up-manship lots of CS characters engage in but that EBD clearly never intends us to see as rude. I think I find it maddening - especially in Mary-Lou, as someone said up the thread - because it seems to make dialogues only be about one character (OOAO) being all breezy, bossy and un-put-downable, and to minimise the response of the other person or people involved, who seem to be only there to feed them their lines! It's why I like the odd occasion when someone actually responds negatively to the tease and the speaker has to placate them - like that time in Oberland when Simone shows Joey her long awaited new baby, Joey says something I find rude, rather then breezy, about Simone needing to take the 'inanely self-satisfied look off her face' because other people have sons too. And - and this is what I think is good writing - Simone looks indignant enough to make Joey backtrack, and actually admire the baby genuinely. I like that because the other character is given a real response and the person being breezy has to adjust her attitude. It's realistic - how often has it happened to all of us that something we've intended to be funny or witty has actually not been received that way? Plus it shows Joey being self-aware and responding to the other person's response - EBD has a tendency only to show us only adult Joey's/Mary-Lou's effect on others, rather than show them responding to them. It's also why the early Kathie/OOAO storyline is so satisfying.

Author:	Mel [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
One of the reasons that there is less bitchiness at the CS might be the fact that for four days a week they are struggling in a language not their own! And don't they struggle? Even girls who have been at the school since Juniors are clocking up fines - until they are prefects and then somehow they are fluent, though sometimes with strong British accents.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Mel wrote: One of the reasons that there is less bitchiness at the CS might be the fact that for four days a week they are struggling in a language not their own! And don't they struggle? Even girls who have been at the school since Juniors are clocking up fines - until they are prefects and then somehow they are fluent, though sometimes with strong British accents. True! You'd think that an ability to be fluently insulting or even just to tease or be funny or witty in a language other than your native tongue would make a difference in how the CS girls socialise, wouldn't you? (I always feel I'm a slightly but definitely different person depending on what language I'm speaking, and part of that just is the kind of thing you aren't able to say because you aren't fluent enough.) It would have been interesting if one of the girls who is absolutely cock of the walk on English days - say Mary-Lou - was bad at languages, and has to take something of a backseat to her more fluent friends on French and German days because it takes her a long time to say anything other than the most basic phrases! I wonder how that would alter the pecking order within a gang or group of friends over time? Would the people who were most fluent in all three be more inclined to take the lead/be popular, or would people be more inclined to talk to other girls with roughly the same level of fluency? EBD doesn't really address it, because her usual position is that most people pick up the languages pretty quickly, but in practice I wonder whether you'd get things like French girls being more extrovert and taking the lead on French days etc. or language abilities governing popularity...? (Or is it pure coincidence that Joey, Mary-Lou and Len are all unusually good at languages and popular?)

Author:	Mel [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
That's a good point - Joyce Linton wouldn't be so charming on German days, and Simone could score off Grizel on French days.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Mel wrote: One of the reasons that there is less bitchiness at the CS might be the fact that for four days a week they are struggling in a language not their own! Somehow, though, I seem to think that it would be the unconventional that would be picked up more easily by teenage girls. As slang intrinsicly ignors many grammatical rules, talking slang in whatever language would be easier. I can see a lot of the girls (if they weren't good CS girls, that is!) learning and using slang much more quickly and easily than that of more formal language ...

Author:	Kathy_S [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: It's why some people find what gets called 'Joey-bashing' on here (which I always think is an interesting term in itself, because it makes criticism or even just dissent from the position of adoring Joey sound really violent!) upsetting, because it's reading against the way EBD intended us to read. This is true to some extent, but not complete. For example, I don't think EBD meant her heroines to be perfect, and don't see them as perfect myself. Nor do I think the author automatically approves of everything her characters do and say, unless she's there with an official finger-pointer, e.g. Herr Marani reaming out Joey for her language about Frau Berlin. Particularly once they are no longer subject to pulling up by adults, the author mostly shows interactions and leaves us to draw conclusions. However, EBD does picture most people around Joey, Mary-Lou et al. as liking and often admiring them in spite of their flaws, and accepting (or mildly joshing about) the quirks and eccentricities and in-jokes that help to make them memorable characters. From my perspective, that's normal: even my closest friends have the odd irritating characteristic, as I'm sure I do, and the same would go for the most charismatic (or saintly) individuals. So, I find the litanies in which it is assumed that everyone from CS mistresses to offspring will of course find the heroines interfering busybodies, rotten parents, and generally detestable to be thoroughly inconsistent with the characters. Then, of course, there's the problem that a person who is attracted to the CS because of its coziness and general lack of bitchiness may be repulsed by bitchiness in general, including bitchiness towards CS characters. I personally tend to see the CS heroines as friends, and can't imagine ripping them apart behind their backs this way. For that matter, non-friends would have to be pretty thorough-going villains before I'd be able to participate without feeling guilty. Possibly, of course, I just don't have the right sense of humor. Some CS conversations that I interpret as normal banter between friends, some posters take literally and excoriate, while I am upset by some postings that many possibly consider hilarious send-ups. I know that I do find a lot of what's marketed as "comedy" positively repellent!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
Kathy_S wrote: Then, of course, there's the problem that a person who is attracted to the CS because of its coziness and general lack of bitchiness may be repulsed by bitchiness in general, including bitchiness towards CS characters. I personally tend to see the CS heroines as friends, and can't imagine ripping them apart behind their backs this way. For that matter, non-friends would have to be pretty thorough-going villains before I'd be able to participate without feeling guilty. Kathy_S, needless to say I acknowledge everyone's right to view the CS and its entire cast of characters in whatever way they please, and no one's uncritical or just different take on the characters damages my pleasure in the slightest! But I think what you say here risks blurring an important distinction between real and imaginary. I simply don't think it's possible to be 'bitchy' about people who are not real, or that anyone on the CBB or elsewhere can legitimately be viewed as at fault because they approach a fictional character in a critical or humorously critical light. Joey and Mary-Lou and Len and Hilda and Miss Bubb and Betty Wynne-Davies and Thekla von Stift are figments of EBD's fertile imagination - it is not possible to 'rip them apart behind their backs' because they exist only on paper and cannot therefore be hurt or defamed! You may think of them as if they were real-life friends who deserve to be defended against verbal attacks, and I respect your right to do so - I'm sure you're not alone. I don't, however, think it's fair to imply that other CBBers should feel as though they are being 'bitchy' or vindictive because they don't share the view that EBD's imaginary heroines deserve the same unquestioning support we give to our real-life friends who can be hurt by back-stabbing or disloyalty. I think the atmosphere on the board is generally a very nice one, with a nice mix of affectionate eye-rolling and exasperated pointing out of EBDisms, quirks, inconsistencies and moments of Joey-related favouritism. Maybe it's because I don't generally read the drabbles (I need to do some work!), but I honestly don't see the outpouring of 'repellent' approaches to the CS that you mention. Surely it's a matter of avoiding the kind of thing you find upsetting, rather than suggesting that people entirely avoid criticising EBD heroines? There's room for us all on the CBB, isn't there?

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vindictiveness at the Chalet School
EBD's refusal to allow anyone to criticise adult Joey does annoy me a bit, but I can kind of understand how she felt ... if I'm writing a drabble, I end up feeling very reluctant to show a favourite character in a bad light, and much as I enjoy it when someone's kind enough to post a comment I do find it very weird (although interesting) if someone interprets things differently to the way I intended them, if that makes sense.