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CS politeness - treatment of disability
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6317
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  CS politeness - treatment of disability
The CS, we're always told 'puts every farthing of tuppence on politeness' and EBD is quick to condemn what she considers rudeness. Yet there are regular occurrences where 'good' characters do something most of us would consider rude, and are unrebuked - it's clear EBD doesn't consider remarks on someone's appearance or weight to be rude, for instance.

But there are other more complicated situations where EBD-approved notions of politeness don't seem to work, like in relation to Naomi Elton in Trials. She deals with her disability by referring to herself as a 'cripple', and making it clear that her brain is unimpaired and that she doesn't want pity or special treatment from her new classmates. I find this completely natural and believable, especially in someone in an intimidating new environment. Yet EBD clearly finds Naomi wrong in rejecting help - it's seen as part of her 'warpedness' - and not Mary-Lou and co, who, even after Naomi has made it very clear she doesn't want help, and resents being singled out, insist on continuing to offer it, which to me is more than a bit insensitive. It's as though their idea of what is Proper Behaviour to the Disabled is more important than that a new girl be allowed to feel comfortable on her own terms.

The CS code of politeness seems not to be flexible enough to accommodate someone who doesn't want to be conspicuously treated as disabled...?

But then I started looking at the way in which other CS girls respond to Naomi's disability:

Quote:
They were sorry for her lameness and her crookedness, but they knew better than to say anything. Apart from the fact that it had been well dinned into them from Junior days that personal remarks were not only ill-bred, but also unkind, there was something about the new girl that forbade any show of pity or sympathy.


Then there's Joan Baker and Jocelyn Fawcett's 'wrong' response:

Quote:
These two began asking questions about Naomi herself. She endured it for a short space. Then she struggled out of her chair. Leaning on her stick, she looked them over with an expression in her eyes that made them feel queerly uncomfortable. At last she spoke.
“I had no idea,” she said icily, “that in a school where the girls were supposed to be gentlewomen—at least, I imagine so—people would be so totally incapable of anything approaching real conversation.” With which she limped off to the door and vanished, leaving them staring after her in consternation.
“What did she mean?” Jocelyn demanded of Joan when she had gone.
“Goodness knows! But if that’s the tone she’s going to take when anyone tries to show her a little kindness, she’ll soon find she’s missed the bus!” Joan retorted angrily. “Who does she think she is, I’d like to know?”
Jocelyn was a silly girl, but she came from the sort of home where comments of that kind would soon have been crushed. Besides, she had never really liked Joan. She jumped up from her chair, saying she was going to hunt for a book and Joan could think of nothing better to do than to follow her example.


I'm not sure I quite understand what EBD is advocating and criticising here. What is it that the CS girls are implicitly praised for not saying in the first quote - is she saying that many people would have actually told Naomi they felt sorry for her because of her lameness, but the CS girls are too well-trained? Isn't this the same as a 'personal remark' about fatness or plainness, though, and those seem to be OK? And what is the difference between 'ill-bred' and 'unkind' here? Is EBD saying pity is still the right response to disability, but that you shouldn't actually say it, or that Naomi is somehow odd for not inviting that kind of response?

And what exactly are Joan and Jocelyn being blamed for in the second quote? Are they asking questions about her lameness, and, if so, why doesn't EBD say so? And what exactly is going on at the end, where Joan is specifically condemned for saying 'Who does she think she is?', whereas Jocelyn, though silly, 'comes from the kind of home where remarks of that kind' are crushed? Clearly Joan's home environment is (yet again) being blamed for wrong training, but I'm not quite sure what the nuance is...?
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
(Thanks Sunglass for making me think!! :roll: :P )

Here are my thought on a few things of what you said. I can understand why Naomi would be so independent minded. having spent about 4 months of my life on crutches at different points of my life I did tend to drive people nuts at my determination to do what I could at whatever the cost (much to mum's disgust). I think what a lot of people see as being kind with helping others, don't tend to realise that sometimes the kindest thing you can often do, is to allow people to do things for themselves, even if they do end up falling on their faces and are forced to pick themselves up again. However, that seems callous and cruel to so many people, so they smother people with kindness.

I think the CS girls do try to be kind, but don't have the maturity to do it so naturally. One of my favourite authors Cynthia Voigt wrote a book called Izzy, Willy, Nilly; which was about a girl (Izzy) who lost a leg in a car accident. One of her friends smothered her in kindness, which destroyed their friendship as Izzy could not be herself around her. And anything Izzy says or does is seen as being so terribly brave etc. She only had one friend, who became a close friend through this, who treated her completely normally and was able to be silly and laugh with her. She was able to see her first, not the disability. I think the CS girls can't get past the disability and see that first, which is why Naomi being intelligent enough to see that reacts the way she does and holds them all at arms length. who wants to be friends with someone who mainly pities you for your disability rather than because they actually like you.

I can see why she is considered 'warped' because Naomi doesn't give anyone a chance but assumes that everything they do is done out of pity, not because they have to. ie showing a new girl around etc. What she needs is the old Jessica Wynn to turn around and tell that all crippled girls are spoilt brats who get everything they want and she doesn't feel sorry for her. Throw the crippledness back in her face whenever Naomi brings it up. I think there is a part of Naomi who would respect that, though her comments to Joan and Jocelyn may be she wouldn't. I have no idea what they would have said that would be considered personal unless it was direct questions about her lameness and how she became lame. I could see why Naomi reacted the way she did because who would want people whose only reason for being friends was because you were lame. It could be that that caused EBD to blame them for their rudeness.

I do feel sorry for many of the CS girls as a few help Naomi purely because a mistress has told them to and don't deserve to be given the stick the get from her over it. I would love to see Ricki tell Naomi that she has to help her because Matey told her to and if she didn't like it or want it, to go tell Matey that as she (Ricki) doesn't want to cross Matey in order to please some silly new girl.
Author:  Emma A [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Some fascinating questions, Sunglass. I assume that EBD is trying to show that Mary-Lou and her gang are trying to help Naomi because they are kind, and because they are very active girls who would consider being "crippled" a terrible fate. Naomi is therefore being churlish and ungracious in refusing their kindly-meant help so rudely (even if she has tried to make clear that she doesn't require or want help). Perhaps the Gang really do think that Naomi is refusing their help out of pride, and that thus they are justified in continuing to offer it.

I also think that there's an authorial disapproval of Naomi making everyone feel uncomfortable because of her reaction to being disabled - she clearly hates it, but wears it as a badge of honour, in a way - and as though she ought to be trying to make everyone feel better about having to look at her. For example, in Peggy, Mrs Randolph is confined to a wheelchair, but never makes it obvious to her guests, and I think this is what EBD saw as much more accepting and acceptable behaviour. Similarly I think there is some degree of implied criticism of Cherry Christy in Island for her intense shyness and consciousness of her leg irons - the Chalet School girls ignore (for Cherry's own good, of course) Dicky's pleas to let Cherry alone, and their friendly interaction is shown as being good for her.

When it comes to the asking personal questions or making personal remarks, I think that Joan and Jocelyn were not making conversation but asking personal questions which might have been acceptable if they'd known Naomi for a while, but which she considered to be intrusive on a first meeting. They might not have been about how she came to be "crippled", but about her famiily, her home, why she was at the school, or anything else that she considered private. Joan's response to Naomi's reply suggests that her motive for asking the questions was not one of genuine interest - she was "trying to be kind", and felt that her good deed was rudely rebuffed. Jocelyn's response is more puzzling, but I guess that her family would have squashed any suggestion that someone was being rude because she thought herself superior. Though I think it's more likely that EBD is just trying to do Joan down again, though...
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
That made my brain hurt!

I think that the situation with Naomi is an awkward one, but I'm so pleased that EBD tackled it. I think that at first Naomi's reaction is one of fear - imagine going to a new school and not even knowing if you would be able to get around or not. I also think that it's nice to see someone who doesn't instantly take to Mary-Lou, and actually disapproves of her butting in!

With regards to the behaviour of the girls, I think that it is very difficult to know how to react to someone until you know them, and this is showing through. Some people, like Naomi, are offended by offers of even normal help, which is completely understandable, whereas others are quite cheerful about it.

I can understand Naomi wanting to draw attention to it straight away, almost as a defence mechanism, so that other people can't use it to hurt her. But the other girls should have respected the boundaries that she set, and to me not doing so is impolite behaviour. However, EBD writes very much from the point of view of the school, and not the new girl, and if the school felt that was good behaviour, I think she is more likely to portray it as so. I hope that makes sense?

The best way to deal with Naomi, IMHO, would be to let Bill talk to her. Bill's had a similar disability, when she broke her leg - short term, I know, and she knew that she would recover, but she would understand some of the challenges of trying to live life with a disability and I think that would help. Plus she is shown as being a very understanding teacher, and I think she could talk to Naomi in a deeper, more mature way than the girls could.
Author:  Lesley [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
That's a good idea ChubbyMonkey - either Miss Wilson or Miss Annersley would be able to help there - remember Miss Annersley was not well enough to return to the CS for more than a year after the road accident. :wink: It's a pity that EBD could not show something like that. Naomi is shown as someone that has a warped personality and there doesn't seem to be very much understanding or empathy there - the girl lost her parents her independance and her future career (as a dancer) in an incident that was no-one's fault. Expecting her to have faith in anyone or any god is completely unrealistic.

As for poor Joan Baker - I think even if she had single-handedly saved the entire school from disaster EBD would have found some way to ensure that she was not rewarded for her actions but, instead, made to feel she that her method was such that it showed up her poor upringing and class. :roll:
Author:  Liz K [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Fiona Mc wrote:
(Thanks Sunglass for making me think!!)

I think what a lot of people see as being kind with helping others, don't tend to realise that sometimes the kindest thing you can often do, is to allow people to do things for themselves, even if they do end up falling on their faces and are forced to pick themselves up again. However, that seems callous and cruel to so many people, so they smother people with kindness.


Thanks from me too Sunglass.

I used to belong to the Colchester Ramblers group and a blind man and his wife also belonged. We'd always stopped for a pub lunch and one day, when we were getting ready to start off again after lunch (and I was at a table next to the blind man), he dropped one of his gloves. I was in a bit of a dither, wondering whether or not to pick it up myself or let him try and find it himself. I waited until I saw he was beginning to move well away from it and then I leaned over and quietly told him where it was. He thanked me and found it immediately.
Author:  Mel [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
They could introduce her to Phoebe Peters who, as well as being more or less wheelchair bound for many years, also suffered great pain. It's interesting that EBD let her recover after the San doctors (of course) operated. She could just as easily let her die with a glib 'it's better so' as she did with Jessica's step-sister.
Author:  Mia [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I find Naomi interesting because leaving the physical disability aside for the moment I think EBD was also alluding to depression. I don't know enough about depression to go into it further - am I correct in thinking it is a "modern" illness in terms of diagnosing & concept? People used to be very afraid of mental illness didn't they and one had to declare if it was in the family before one married I believe - but it must have existed even without a proper name and I do wonder if EBD knew anybody with it. It's too wild a leap to look at the dedication in Trials -"In Memory of my Dear Mother" - and put two and two together to make five isn't it..?

It's a shame Naomi is really only a one-book wonder; she's an interesting character. I find it particularly ironic that one of the few times she does accept help - the lift home in the sidecar on the young doctor's motorbike - it is an actual disaster! :roll:
Author:  JayB [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Quote:
People used to be very afraid of mental illness didn't they and one had to declare if it was in the family before one married I believe - but it must have existed even without a proper name and I do wonder if EBD knew anybody with it.


Anyone of EBD's generation would have known about shell shock. EBD also seems to have been familiar with depression following bereavement - Nan Blakeney in Janie Steps In. And Grizel in Reunion is clearly severely depressed; EBD may not have known the modern term, but she recognised and described the condition well enough.

I think the idea behind declaring mental illness (or 'insanity') before marriage was that it might be hereditary and therefore passed on to children. And also I believe insanity could not be used as grounds for divorce. Hence Mr Rochester's situation - he hadn't been told about Bertha's condition before he married her, and he couldn't divorce her.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Emma A wrote:
I also think that there's an authorial disapproval of Naomi making everyone feel uncomfortable because of her reaction to being disabled - she clearly hates it, but wears it as a badge of honour, in a way - and as though she ought to be trying to make everyone feel better about having to look at her.


That's absolutely right, I think - and complicates the whole situation interestingly. EBD and the general CS code of politeness seems to be saying that Naomi should be offered special treatment and helped, but what's unsaid is that a certain kind of behaviour is also expected from the disabled person - that they accept all the help offered, whether or not they want or need it, and also that they minimise their disability/don't refer to it overtly/act shy and Cherry Christie-ish because of it, in case it discomfits others.

It's not that the CS code of politeness doesn't know how to deal with disabled people, it's more that it doesn't know how to deal with a disabled person who breaks the 'rules', as Naomi does. I think Naomi is a brilliantly realistic character, maybe EBD's single best one-book character - spiky, angry, conflicted, clever - and I love that she clearly feels it isn't her responsibility to make everyone else feel good about themselves, and the way she uses sarcasm as a way of fending off the kind of blanket pity she must be all too used to, as an unusually beautiful girl with an evident disability starting at a very outdoorsy, active school. where all the other girls obviously think her fate is the worst thing that could possibly happen to them. (The CS, it occurs to me, isn't the best choice of a school for someone with mobility difficulties, especially in winter...?)

In fact, nearly everything Naomi does and says that breaks the EBD/CS rules on how a disabled person should act would now be seen as entirely normal, even laudable behaviour on the part of someone with a disability - Naomi is very modern in her insistence that how she feels matters more than making able-bodied helpers feel good about themselves. For instance, I believe disability sensitivity training now includes things like not assuming that a person with a disability wants or requires assistance, realising that rejecting assistance isn't a personal affront, being told about not grabbing a wheelchair user's chair handles or a blind person's arm without asking permission first. (And lots of people with disabilities have now reclaimed the word 'cripple' as a neutral or positive way of describing themselves - if it makes the able-bodied uncomfortable, they just have to deal.)

But EBD sees this kind of independence and pride as part of Naomi's 'warpedness', rather than the natural behaviour of a proud, rather solitary girl who has undergone an awful experience, and has had to evolve a way of dealing with well-meaning sympathy that only makes her feel worse.

And poor Joan Baker - I agree that whatever she did, short of carrying Naomi out of a burning building, would be wrong. Notice how even Jocelyn Fawcett, the only other contender for school misfit, dislikes her and is shown to be 'better-bred' than her in her response to Naomi's snub. I wondered whether the implication was that less 'well-bred' girls were more likely to behave insensitively towards someone with a disability?
Author:  andydaly [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
This is a great thread, Sunglass!

Mia wrote:
I find Naomi interesting because leaving the physical disability aside for the moment I think EBD was also alluding to depression. I don't know enough about depression to go into it further - am I correct in thinking it is a "modern" illness in terms of diagnosing & concept? People used to be very afraid of mental illness didn't they and one had to declare if it was in the family before one married I believe - but it must have existed even without a proper name and I do wonder if EBD knew anybody with it.


It would have been known in medical terms as 'melancholia' in EBD's youth, and during the early part of the twentieth century began to be referred to as depression. I think it would have been referred to euphemistically as suffering with one's nerves by the layman of those times. She must have known of it as a disease, I'm sure - there must have been references to it in some of the books she read, even if she never knowingly met someone with that disease.
Author:  Mia [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Thanks andydaly, that is interesting.
Author:  Mel [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
EBD's ideas of how Naomi should behave reminds me of Cousin Helen in What Katy Did, where she tells Katy that an invalid's room should be bright and clean and that Katy should brush her hair etc. Most of that very good advice, except that it implies that it is the invalid's role to make it easy for every one else by not complaining and by behaving better than usual, so that everyone will love her and want to be with her. Naomi certainly doesn't make it easy for others to love her. I agree that the CS is not the wisest choice, neither is it a good decision to include her on a skiing trip!
Author:  Sugar [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Sunglass wrote:
(And lots of people with disabilities have now reclaimed the word 'cripple' as a neutral or positive way of describing themselves - if it makes the able-bodied uncomfortable, they just have to deal.)


What's your evidence for this? Not one of the disabled people I know and I know quite a few (funny that!) uses "cripple" in a positive or neutral way. In fact it is found to be upsetting and insulting. Someone I know with ME type problems uses it but in the terms of "cripple benefit" (ie. getting in free to the cinema/concerts etc) but this grates on me personally.

Personally I think Naomi's reaction is pretty typical. Wanting to be independant is normal as is not wanting pity.

In relation to the comment about insanity and divorce. Insanity has always been a ground for divorce, especially if spouse is admitted under the MHA. TS Eliot divorced his wife this way as have many others. I always assumed that in Jane Eyre it was used as a plot point.
Author:  AngelaG [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Sugar wrote:
In relation to the comment about insanity and divorce. Insanity has always been a ground for divorce, especially if spouse is admitted under the MHA. TS Eliot divorced his wife this way as have many others. I always assumed that in Jane Eyre it was used as a plot point.


When Jane Eyre was written in the early 19th century divorce was extremely difficult in Britian, in fact it needed an Act of Parliament! The 1857 Matrimonial Causes Act allowed divorce for the innocent party where their spouse had committed adultery but it wasn't until 1937 that the grounds for divorce were widened to include desertion, cruelty and incurable insanity.

I find Naomi a very interesting character, maybe based on someone EBD knew as she leaps off the page as an individual. However, like any group of people lumped together arbitrarily, not all disabled people are going to be like her, they are going to be like themselves. Naomi doesn't want help and would rather manage on her own. She also has a sharp tongue and is very well able to express herself. Cherry Christie reacted differently to her (temporary) disability and to the friendly overtures of the CS girls.

I've only known one disabled person well, when I was a subject librarian in a university library. He was blind and profoundly deaf but very independent. However, he was happy to accept help to enable him to be more independent in his study (if that makes sense). He also happily used expressions such as "See you later" and had rather robust views on people who fell over themselves to avoid expressions that they thought might possibly offend him.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I really like that Naomi makes everyone feel uncomfortable by actually saying out loud that she has a disability! It's 'polite' for the other girls not to say anything about it, which seems almost hypocritical considering they're always commenting on each others' appearances, personalities, strengths and faults; Naomi's disability shouldn't define her but it is a part of her, and she forces other people to confront that.

I think most of that quote about Joan and Jocelyn was cut out of my copy of the book, but it figures that even though Jocelyn was behaving just as badly as Joan, Joan should still somehow come off as being the most wrong...
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I admire Naomi's bravery, but at the same time I don't think she went about things in the right way. It would have been far better, IMHO, to just say that she did have a disability, didn't want help and didn't want to talk about it. Whether the Gang would have respected that is another matter, but she seems to deliberately push people away, which I think is sad.

I wish EBD had had more characters who questioned the CS ethos.
Author:  Tor [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Quote:
I wish EBD had had more characters who questioned the CS ethos.


It strike's me that, take away Naomi's physical disabilities and you end up with a typical new-girl refuses to fit in story-line. What makes Naomi really interesting is that EBD is exploring themes that i am not sure she is entirely comfortable with, namely the idea of 'innate' problems (I am finding it hard to verbalise this... humour me if this is less thnan pithy!).

A typical EBD approach is to treat problems/problem characters as fixable and redeemable, and she is most comfortable with the idea of causative explanations (e.g. bad parenting). Here she accommodates Naomi by giving her bad-temper and 'warped mind' a direct cause: her accident and subsequent disability.

But then she hits a snag, as the CS and OOAO are not qualified to fix physical ailments (enter the San and the Great Doctors). So, instead, EBD falls back on Naomi's emotional issues, but as she has given them a sort-of validation by placing the physical problems as their root cause, she can't do her usual 'pull yourself together' routine. She obviously doesn't know what to do. This is a very typical reaction of people faced with disability - their sympathy (or worry about wanting to seem sympathetic) trips them up in their normal reactions to people. Naomi is being a prize cow, and any other new student behaving that way would be called on it. EBD doesn't want to do so, and can't make her characters do so, but despite that seems aware of the more complex issues governing politeness/behavioural codes/and the traditional role of the disabled in society (hidde away, generally) - rather brilliantly, she tries to play this all out on the page.

I think it is one of few examples of real honesty by EBD in the later books, and certainly reads better for it. I feel the discomfort of everyone involved. And I love Naomi. I wish she'd been allowed to stay on at the school. But I think she was too powerful a force, and one of those unmanageable characters EBD refers to via Joey from time to time, for EBD to enjoy working with when she had a CS-book schedule to keep to.

Had Naomi just had the 'warped mind', I think EBd would have had characters being far less sympathetic and would have effectively said, "Pull yourself together". Even with Grizel, in Reunion, it is the physical manifestations (tiredness etc) of what we recognize as depression that are accommodated.
Author:  andydaly [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Tor wrote:
Had Naomi just had the 'warped mind', I think EBd would have had characters being far less sympathetic and would have effectively said, "Pull yourself together". Even with Grizel, in Reunion, it is the physical manifestations (tiredness etc) of what we recognize as depression that are accommodated.


Like they did with Odette Mercier. The child was suffering dreadfully, and their response was "Buck up!". Verges on cruel and unusual!
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Sugar wrote:

What's your evidence for this? Not one of the disabled people I know and I know quite a few (funny that!) uses "cripple" in a positive or neutral way. In fact it is found to be upsetting and insulting. Someone I know with ME type problems uses it but in the terms of "cripple benefit" (ie. getting in free to the cinema/concerts etc) but this grates on me personally.


I was specifically quoting the trainer at a disability awareness day we had at work, but I can think of two or three people I know with different kinds of disabilities who would either themselves use such terms, or have no problem with them being used in a 'reclaimed' way by people with disabilities. My sense is also that it may have a wider currency among politicised younger Americans with disabilities - and that it might be a usage among younger wheelchair-user athletes in the US. Certainly I also know people personally who don't use those words and don't like them, for understandable reasons, as with any kind of reclaimed terms.

But it's one of the things that seems modern about Naomi for me - that she's prepared to use words that make other people uncomfortable. And I think EBD, when she was writing Trials,was still having to write against the stereotype of the Cousin Helen-type saintly invalid, which makes her characterisation of Naomi interesting.
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
EBD does poor Joan down at every opportunity! "Questions about Naomi herself" just sounds to me like ordinary small talk, e.g. asking whereabouts in England she came from and whether she had any brothers or sisters. Maybe Naomi found that intrusive, but you can only talk about the weather or the local scenery for so long, and presumably not talking to her at all would have been considered rude as well.

Naomi is a great character, and it's interesting to see how the girls struggle to cope with someone who doesn't fit in with accepted CS rules of behaviour. She even makes Mary-Lou look ridiculously prissy and narrow-minded, when she says that she isn't interested in organised religion and Mary-Lou doesn't know how to react. It's a shame that we never see her after Trials.

Leaving the disability issue aside and just concentrating on the "warped mind" thing for a moment. usually un-CS-like behaviour is blamed on poor parenting (e.g. Emerence, Stacie) or some sort of personal character "flaw" which can be "put right" (Jessica's jealousy of Rosamund, Eilunedd's jealousy of Peggy), but in Naomi's case there is a genuinely good reason for it which is no-one's fault. i.e. that she lost her parents and her dream of becoming a dancer, and suffered partial loss of mobility, in a fire. A lot of the characters have suffered tragedy in their lives, but most of them just seem to get on with it/accept it as being the divine will or something, and Naomi's a rare example of someone who - very realistically - struggles to come to terms with what's happened to her.
Author:  Jennie [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Why are invalids/people with acquired disabilities expected to be saintly?

Why can't they get into a strop if they feel like it?

I think EBD made Naomi as she is at the beginning to show just how warped she is mentally when anyone really ought to feel compassion for what the girl has lost and make allowances for her. But that wouldn't demonstrate the miraculously curative powers of the CS and the San.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I don't think that Naomi is expected to be saintly, but there is a line between politely explaining to someone that you don't want/need their help, and being as rude as she could be - understandable as it is, she doesn't appear to make an effort, ever, which does just make her bad tempered.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
,,, there is a line between politely explaining to someone that you don't want/need their help, and being as rude as she could be - understandable as it is, she doesn't appear to make an effort, ever, which does just make her bad tempered.


Do you really find Naomi rude? I honestly don't find her so, myself. I think EBD thinks she's rude, but I also think EBD has some ideal of the Cousin-Helen-type Saintly Invalid, whose job is to be selfless and make sure no one else is made uncomfortable by her disability (like that thing she says a couple of times about it being people's duty to wear make-up because of other people who have to look at you!).

For me, Naomi is only assertive, acerbic and determined to make clear from the start in a new place the way she wants to be treated, whether or not her refusal of help or use of the word 'cripple' makes other people uncomfortable. She's not nice or self-deprecating about it, sure, but I don't feel she should be required to have to be 'nice' about asking to be treated like anyone else, if you see what I mean...? From my point of view, Mary-Lou and co are being insensitive for not backing off with the offers of help when it's clear that is making Naomi uncomfortable - I think the onus is on them to take their cue from Naomi, who's in the difficult positon of being stared at and pitied in a new environment. (But of course backing off kind of clashes with the CS code, which tends to assume it knows better than an individual new girl with different ideas! I suppose that's the problem here, really - from EBD's point of view, if there's a difference of opinion between a new girl and the CS, the CS always knows best...)

EBD also seems to be much more comfortable with a Stacie-type of situation, where someone has been disabled (arguably) through their own fault, rather than by a horrible accident, and who can be gradually (the moral of the story!) cured by being patient and self-denying. With Naomi, there's no question of culpability, and at the start of Trials no question that her mobility will improve, and EBD seems to find that harder to deal with...?
Author:  Mel [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I find the Herr Laubach incident interesting in 'Trials.' Naomi is responsible for her own walking stick and forgets to take the spiky one. No better or worse than a girl taking the wrong pencils to an art class. Herr L treats her like any other girl, yells at her, Naomi flares up, gets up and falls. Herr L is devastated and resigns. All blame is put on Naomi. Firstly, considering how careful the CS is on health issues, , should N be wandering unaided, on unsafe terrain, in spite of her wish to be independent? Should Herr L still be teaching when, after all these years he cannot control his temper? Has he had no warnings? And why is he penniless- is the pay so bad?
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Herr Laubach and Mr Denny are both allowed to lose their tempers with pupils, time after time, because they are blokes. No way would a female teacher have got away with behaving like that. I'm not sure what that says about the CS :roll: . The Naomi incident was just an accident, though: if she had the wrong stick then she'd quite possibly have fallen even if she hadn't just had an argument with someone.

It was really very insensitive of Naomi's aunt, and especially of Peter Chester who suggested the CS, to send her to a school where so much emphasis was put on rambles, winter sports, etc. At any school she might have had to miss out on games and walks to some extent, but at most schools she wouldn't have had to deal with e.g. the awkwardness of a teacher asking for volunteers to pull her along on a toboggan whilst everyone else went ski-ing.

Herr Laubach lost his savings when he left Austria, IIRC, and presumably he hadn't managed to save a penny in the 12 years or so since then because either the pay was horrendously low or else no-one in CS-land was capable of managing to sustain a reasonable standard of living on a salary and still put a bit of money by :roll: .
Author:  linda [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Sunglass wrote:
(And lots of people with disabilities have now reclaimed the word 'cripple' as a neutral or positive way of describing themselves - if it makes the able-bodied uncomfortable, they just have to deal.)


Sorry, Sunglass, I must disagree. I've been disabled, due to polio, since I was fifteen months old, and this is the one word I will not tolerate. I find it both derogatory and demeaning, and I know that my many friends with various disabilities feel the same way. I'm happy to be a person with a disability, or even a disabled person but anyone using that word in my presence would certainly live to regret it.

I would also add that, having delivered disability awareness training for many years, I've never heard any suggestion that people with disabilities use the word with all its negative connotations of stereotyping and assumptions that people with disabilities are somehow lesser beings dependent on the charity of others.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
linda wrote:

Sorry, Sunglass, I must disagree. I've been disabled, due to polio, since I was fifteen months old, and this is the one word I will not tolerate. I find it both derogatory and demeaning, and I know that my many friends with various disabilities feel the same way. I'm happy to be a person with a disability, or even a disabled person but anyone using that word in my presence would certainly live to regret it. Again, sorry for bringing it up.

I would also add that, having delivered disability awareness training for many years, I've never heard any suggestion that people with disabilities use the word with all its negative connotations of stereotyping and assumptions that people with disabilities are somehow lesser beings dependent on the charity of others.


Oh, I entirely agree personally, Linda and it's not a word I would dream of using, in any company (and my apologies for raising it here - I think it was my own continuing shock at hearing the word thrown about in RL that made me think about Naomi using it) but as an able-bodied person I feel I have to respect the vocabulary some people with disabilities choose to reclaim - and I do know several people with disabilities who do use these words as a positive way of describing themselves, I gather along much the same lines that some gay people have reclaimed traditionally objectifying terms like 'queer'. Which I know is also problematic for some gay people.

But I wouldn't want anyone to think I go about throwing the word around myself, I'm just trying to respect other people's choices about how they self-define. And will shut up about it now. In fact, mods, should this thread be taken down? I don't want to offend anyone on the board further.
Author:  linda [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Quote:
In fact, mods, should this thread be taken down? I don't want to offend anyone on the board further.



Sunglass, sorry if I have made you feel uncomfortable about this thread. That was not my intention at all. I was not offended by the topic. I hadn't seen this thread earlier as I have just returned from holiday, but felt that I really wanted to put my point of view.

I fully understand where you are coming from, and hope that you don't think I was being over sensitive. I've had some various epithets aimed at me over many, many years, but somehow the word 'cripple' always made me cringe. Personally, I'm often in trouble for referring to myself as an 'old polio'. Some of my friends who have also had polio find this derogatory. (So you just can't win! :banghead: )

Please don't feel that the thread should be removed.
Author:  Sugar [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Agree with Linda on this and it was me who queried it in the first place. I was just intrigued as to the source. I'm not offended by your comments, you are not using yourself to define people with disability. If you were I might have knocked your block off! :D

No need for a really interesting thread to be removed over a comment like that.
Author:  Tor [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
In terms of Naomi and her use of the word 'cripple', I don't think EBD really intended her to be using it in a 'reclaiming' manner at all. I think she saw it as a legitimate descriptive term, and that any discomfort arising from Naomi using it rested solely on the fact that the CS girls would prefer Naomi to pretend that she did not have a disability at all. Harking back to that saintly, Cousin Helen-esque bahviour with a good dollop of heroic, silent suffering.

I do think it a testament to EBD skills at characterization that, probably without intending to, the Naomi she has written feels so modern and, in fact, you can imagine her today doing a rather acerbic, discomfort-inducing, stand-up set.

I personally do think that Naomi was being a bit of a cow. Regardless of her reasons, there was little give on her part. She went out of her way to be prickly, and as I said above, in any other new girl, that sort of behaviour would have been firmly 'sat on'. However, I *like* that she behaves like that, and that it causing a lot of self-reflection on the part of a number of CS characters. More CS new-girls should have done, as it would have been much more realistic!
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Richenda's awkward when she arrives, although not for very long, and Prunella is also awkward when she arrives, but they're both rebelling against their parents so it's not quite the same thing. Verity also refuses to conform initially - she's a really interesting character at first, and it's a great shame that EBD turns her into a "broken reed".

The school does seem to struggle to deal with anyone who doesn't settle down into school ways and adopt school norms fairly quickly - Odette Mercier gets no sympathy even though she's clearly very unhappy, Thekla ends up being expelled, Joan Baker is criticised for every single thing she does, and Yseult leaves after one term because EBD doesn't seem to know what to do with her. It's the same with staff - Matron Webb doesn't even last a term and nor does Matron Besly, and Nell Wilson is dragged off for her sickbed (more or less) to come back and take over when the school apparently can't cope with even a few more weeks of Miss Bubb. It's not unrealistic that that would happen, but it's a shame that we don't get to see more of the school trying to deal with someone who doesn't conform on a longer term basis.
Author:  MaryR [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Alison H wrote:
but it's a shame that we don't get to see more of the school trying to deal with someone who doesn't conform on a longer term basis.

They coped with Grizel, both as pupil and teacher... and she certainly didn't conform as a patient and understanding teacher, or as a staff colleague, being prickly and sarcastic in a very extreme manner at times.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Grizel is great! I think she's the one character who really outwitted EBD :lol: .
Author:  JB [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Mary R wrote:

Quote:
They coped with Grizel, both as pupil and teacher... and she certainly didn't conform as a patient and understanding teacher, or as a staff colleague, being prickly and sarcastic in a very extreme manner at times.


I think they coped with Grizel because she was "one of them". I don't think they'd have coped with a newcomer who behaved in the same way.

I also like Grizel and I feel she's very well written. I reread Carola recently and, although i've read it many times, I felt angry all over again with her stepmother's refusal to allow Grizel access to her money and with her horrible father for tying the money up in that way.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Ah, but Grizel was a foundation stone! I imagine Joey annoyed them all at some point, but there are certain people you just couldn't be rude too!

I agree, though, that I wish EBD had challenged herself and her characters more by writing people who didn't agree (though why they would then have stayed at the school outwits me at this moment in time)
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I think there are three distinct "problems" with Naomi that EBD wants to fix, and she could probably have coped with writing about a girl with one or two of them, but to have all three made her impossible.

Firstly, there's her physical disability. Any girl at a school which, as others have pointed out, has such an emphasis on outdoors activities, and who was unable to take part in these activities, would have struggled to cope, I think, no matter how saintly she was (and Naomi is decidedly not!) The only other girl I can think of at the school with such a disability (excluding the Annexe) was Cherry Christie, and she was only a very minor character after her role in Island. And both Phoebe and Christie are promised that they'll walk again one day, even if we never get to see it.

Secondly, there's Naomi's attitude to other people - rightly or wrongly, she clearly enjoys making other people feel uncomfortable. This seems like a natural defence for an intelligent girl who wants people to notice her intellect rather than feel sorry for her disability. I wonder if she also pushes people away rather than let them get close to her - a hangover from having lost her parents when she was so young? She doesn't seem particularly fond of the relative who's looking after her, either.

Thirdly, there's her atheism. To me, it really reads like EBD believes that if Naomi was a practicing Christian, she wouldn't be constantly pushing people away; and I think it's also significant that Naomi says that if she was cured she'd be able to believe in God again.

EBD really felt like she had to 'fix' all three of these aspects - by the end of the book, Naomi has an improved attitude, has started to believe in God again, and is going to be able to walk again without crutches, one day. It's a pity, I think - she essentially loses everything which makes her different. From a contemporary view, it would have sent a stronger message if Naomi had learnt to form relationships with other people without essentially changing entirely, but I think to EBD's eyes she needed to change if she was going to be happy (and fit into the CS, of course).

Sorry - this turned into a really long rant. I hope that all makes sense...
Author:  RroseSelavy [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I get the feeling that, for EBD, Naomi's "warped" character and atheism aren't two separate things. For EBD and the CS, atheism is pretty much the ultimate personality kink. It's as though Naomi settling down to life as a happy, passive cripple (in EBD's language, not mine!) and Naomi finding god are one and the same thing - fitting in and accepting her lot in life.

As others have said, many people do seem to want to place disabled people in a separate category and think that they know their needs better than the disabled person themselves. I have a friend who politely declined an offer by her university to provide her with a helper, as she neither needed nor wanted one. The response of the university was to tell her that she "needed to come to terms with her disability." :shock:
Author:  MJKB [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I think the great weakness in EBD's treatment of Naomi's situation is her partial recovery. She uses this 'miracle' to 'cure' her atheism, which is not what religous faith is all about. It actually surprises me that a practising christian would chose this resolution.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I'm glad that Naomi gets a happy ending, but I find it rather bizarre. Presumably Naomi's aunt had taken her to see leading orthopaedic specialists, and yet they were unable to do anything to improve her condition but the doctor at the San, an institution which specialised in treating TB (I know that TB can affect the bones, but in Naomi's case it had nothing to do with her particular medical problems), were able to put everything right :roll: .
Author:  hac61 [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Alison H wrote:
Presumably Naomi's aunt had taken her to see leading orthopaedic specialists, and yet they were unable to do anything to improve her condition but the doctor at the San...were able to put everything right :roll: .


But weren't they only able to put things right because of the damage that was done in the motorcycle accident?

(Still not understandable)


hac
Author:  LizzieC [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
*delurks*

Nightwing wrote:
Secondly, there's Naomi's attitude to other people - rightly or wrongly, she clearly enjoys making other people feel uncomfortable. This seems like a natural defence for an intelligent girl who wants people to notice her intellect rather than feel sorry for her disability. I wonder if she also pushes people away rather than let them get close to her - a hangover from having lost her parents when she was so young? She doesn't seem particularly fond of the relative who's looking after her, either.


What strikes me about Naomi's attitude to other people is that to me it seems like she has let herself become defined by her disability - she isn't a person who happens to have a disability but she is that disability (and perhaps living in the moment of its diagnosis).

A different thing, I know, and I don't want to threadjack, but I used to do this to people over the fact my father had died when I was eight. I must have been fourteen or fifteen before I stopped identifying myself to people as "I'm LizzieC and my dad's dead", or words to that effect. I did it even when I knew it made people uncomfortable - perhaps that's why I did it, but it was only when I moved past that moment that I stopped it being my defining feature. I think we see some of this with Naomi in Trials too.

Once the CS does its usual thing and she becomes a much more rounded character with a different outlook I feel she moves past the "I am this disibility and will mention it pre-emptively before anyone can hurt me by referrencing it" and becomes a person who happens to have the disability she does rather than being it.

I've explained this very badly. Sorry. I hope you all can see where I'm coming from and I haven't offended anyone in the process :? .

*relurks*
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I actually think thats a very valid point, that Naomi defines herself by her disability. I think in a sense it does warp her and when she finally starts to see herself as more than that she becomes more rounded and less warped by it all.
Author:  Alison H [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I think that that's a really good point, Lizzie. I would imagine that Naomi did that because she thought it'd be better than people just not mentioning her disability because they felt awkward about it or thought that it'd be seen as making a "personal remark", but it's sad that she does identify herself that way, rather than by her intelligence.

This is going off at a bit of a tangent, but we're told that initially a lot of girls are attracted to her purely because of her beautiful face. That sounds really shallow to me, but I assume that EBD didn't mean it like that ... she makes the point that Naomi was particularly angry at the thought of being pitied for her disability when she did have brains and good looks ...
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
I think I would have been attracted to her sarcastic way of looking at things and just someone who looks at the world differently. One of my best friends in high school was an atheist which was the complete opposite to me and that was a huge part of the attraction. We certainly had a few very spirited conversations which was a lot of fun. I certainly admired her for being so strong in her beliefs especially when most who don't believe in God and stuff don't tend to make that leap of I'm an athiest
Author:  Kathy_S [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
Quote:
She uses this 'miracle' to 'cure' her atheism, which is not what religous faith is all about. It actually surprises me that a practising christian would chose this resolution.

I think that EBD was presenting Naomi's statements that she'd believe in God if she was cured, but couldn't believe in a God so uncaring as to allow such dreadful things to have happened to her and her parents, as part and parcel of Naomi's warpedness. Hence we have ML place the latter in the "simply aren't true" category, even though she takes the former as a "bargain" in a go-to-bed-now sort of way after her "People are awfully given to taking you as you think of yourself" speech. Does Naomi ever express such a theology after her health improves? (I only have the Armada.) She seems to begin to come around more as the result of the girls' praise for her Lost Property suggestion -- something that couldn't possibly be interpreted as them feeling sorry for her. Although I agree that EBD might well have considered atheism the ultimate expression of warpedness, I think she viewed the core problem as Naomi's tragic losses and disability narrowing her world to herself. As usual, it's Hilda who hits the nail on the head:
Quote:
Naomi is stronger in very many more ways than in health, you know. She has been learning to think for others....


On now invalids should look, I was interested to see Flora in The Daisy Chain come out with
Quote:
"Don't you think one may as well be fit to be seen if one is ill? It is no use to depress one's friends by being more forlorn and disconsolate than one can help."

It sounds very much part of the continuum that brought us the "smiles and sings in difficulties" part of the Guide law. (I was never much good at that one, even though Girl Scouts were only were asked to be "cheerful.") Of course, as far as Daisy Chain is concerned, dear Margaret and her fiance fall well within Beth March/ sainted Helen norms.
Author:  Kadi [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
My mother once told me that my uncle (who lost both his hands when he was five) prefered the term 'handicapped' to 'disabled'. Probably because even though it may take him longer there are still a lot of things he can do just like people with hands.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
There's a review in one of the various pamphlets which came with this quarter's FOCS magazine of a book about the treatment of disability in GO books - has anyone read the book (have already managed to forget its name :oops: )?
Author:  Joey [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS politeness - treatment of disability
It's called Unseen Chidhoods, published by Bettany Press. I haven't read it all - saving it for post-dissertation - but I did read the chapter about the Chalet School to see if the comments about Naomi could add anything to this discussion. (I decided they couldn't.) It looks really interesting - a bit more scholarly than You're a Brick, Angela! and books like that, but that's not new for Bettany Press. The subtitle mentions 20th-century books for girls, but it's actually a bit broader than GO: there are a few chapters on YA novels. Several of the authors mention their own disabilities in the author biographies at the beginning. I'm looking forward to reading it.
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