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Transition to adulthood
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Author:  Nightwing [ Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Transition to adulthood
Following on from a similar thread on the discussion in Leader, which CS characters do you think are as appealing as adults as they are as children? Are there any characters you would have liked to have seen more of as adults?
Author:  Pado [ Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
In my opinion...

Better as an adult:
Simone
Rosalie Dene (both she and Simone grow from being a colourless sidekick to strong, self-confident women in their own right)
Stacie Benson (more likeable anyway, but is more developed as a child character)
Nancy Wilmot (stereotyped as a student character but more strongly developed in later books)

About the same:
Frieda
Gisela
Hilary Burn

Better as a schoolgirl:
Joey
Marie
Gillian Linton (doesn't work as a Rosalie Dene type character for me)
The Robin
Daisy
Evadne
Margia Stevens
(Reg Entwistle)


Best left undiscussed:
Mary Lou
Author:  Alex [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Cornerlia I think is better as a school girl too, especially in the last years of her school career. I know there isn't much of her as an adult, but when we see her in Reunion she seems to have turned into Aunt Cora from The Painted Garden by Noel Streatfield.
Author:  JayB [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Elisaveta I think is better as an adult. I do like her as a schoolgirl, but if she wasn't a princess there'd be nothing to set her apart from dozens of other happy, friendly, mischief-loving Middles. As an adult, however, she is an exceptionally strong, courageous, independent woman who copes, largely alone, with huge challenges.
Author:  Tor [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I prefer Robin as an 'adult schoolgirl', and I think she'd have continued to be a good adult character if she hadn't been shipped off to the nunnery.

Grizel is a character who grows from a believable child into an equally believable adult, whilst retaining a strong sense of character, I think. Possibly the only CS character that does. I quite agree that Simone, for instance, is a more likeable adult, but it is almost as if she is a distinct character from school-girl Simone. And ditto for Rosalie, Nancy - although for them, because they lacked much character development as school-girl characters I can accept their adult persona more easily.

Not a transition to adulthood, but Madge's transformation from entrepreneurial sparkling young women to dull, sweet Lady Russel is all too believable, and the sadder for it.
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Bride Bettany 's character remains pretty consistent, nice child, nice woman. However, we see very little of her as an adult so perhaps it doesn't count.
Author:  Alison H [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I think that Robin as a teenager is much better than either Robin as a little girl or Robin as an adult. I agree that Simone, Elisaveta, Rosalie and Nancy are better as adults, and Joey (definitely!!) and Daisy are better as schoolgirls. We don't see enough of most people as adults to be able to tell much about them but, as Alex says, I think Cornel,ia is better as a schoolgirl.

I feel so sorry for Mollie when she walkks into the room in Reunion and Cornelia makes a loud remark about how much weight she's put on - although she herself then remarks that Bernhilda's also put on weight and that Grizel's too thin!

I think that Mary-Lou could potentially have turned into quite a nice adult. She was hoist by her own petard when everyone expected her to give up her career to babysit her mother (who was not at that time in poor health) and Verity, and then after her mother died and Verity got married she was left with not very much ... but she picked herself up and got on with her life, and (apart from her patronising remarks about Verity) I rather like her in Reunion. It's a shame that the friendship she made with Grizel at that time was never developed futher: Grizel as an adult is much more believable than Joey as an adult.
Author:  kaitlin101 [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Did the Robin get sent to the nunnery early because she is delicate?
Author:  Lesley [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
She didn't get sent to a nunnery - she chose to go, after doing a degree at Oxford and spending some time doing 'Social Work' of some type. She went to Cananda to recover her health and decided then that she had her Calling.


That said though she may have been influenced by the Doctors telling her that she should not marry as she could pass on her delicacy to children.
Author:  Tor [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Quote:
She didn't get sent to a nunnery - she chose to go,


yes - just want to make clear, when I said shipped off, I was referring to EBD sending her character 'off page', rather than the internal storyline.

I wish EBD hadn't written out Robin just as she was getting interesting, but that's me being selfish.

I also agree with you Alison that Mary-Lou might well have turned into a very nice adult. Most of her irritating qualities would disappear in the real world, when she is no-longer a big fish in a small pond, and her good qualities would stand her in good stead for being a success at something.

I think one of the nicest thing Jo ever did was to step in and take Doris off Mary-Lou's hands for a bit after Commander Carey died.
Author:  James [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Robin is my favourite character as an older teenager... agree with people above that sending her off stage was a real shame.

Mary-Lou is likeable in the early books but gets progressively more and more annoying as she grows up.

Nancy Wilmot is phenomenally bland as a student but really good as a teacher - in fact, I'd forgotten she was AT the school until I read Pado's post! I find Simone far better as an adult as well, and quite like Gill Linton as an adult but thought she was too goody-goody as a schoolgirl. (To be fair, it's a LONG time since I read anything much from the Austrian years so may be besmirching her there on vague memories...)
Author:  MJKB [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
"Mary-Lou is likeable in the early books but gets progressively more and more annoying as she grows up." Quote from James.
Mary-Lou is at her worst from her senior middle days onwards until she leaves school. After she leaves school she no longer feels the urge to reform those around her and she becomes alot more palatable. I really like her in Reunion,but after that she tends to fade further into the background. But even at her worst she was always basically kind and compassionate
Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I personally like Mary-Lou best in her post-Gang career. She grows up very realistically, from a rather heedless generic kid, through the "leads by the nose" period -- though the fact that she uses her popularity to include outsiders rather than to be as "exclusive" as her followers would like to believe puts her a significant notch above leaders of typical schoolgirl cliques -- to become a thoughtful, caring young adult. I admire her for doing her best to fathom what's right and taking the risk of trying to help, rather than just agonizing (my usual approach) or, worse, indulging in judgmental sniping. Of course she can be a bit blundersome, and, when we see the most of her, is only starting to learn that things aren't always black and white, but all in all she's the sort of person I'd like to see more of in the world.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I think part of the problem with Mary-Lou (and with Len, as well) is that having named her as Joey's successor, EBD felt compelled to use her more like a tool for problem-solving than as a character in her own right. Like Joey, she is inserted into situations that don't really need her (even after she has left for Oxford!) I do think she turns into a very nice young adult - helpful, capable, and the way she is shown to be dealing with her grief for Doris (badly, at first) is quite true to character.

I agree that Gillian Linton was a bit too boring as a schoolgirl but I don't think I've read enough of her as a teacher to make much of a distinction. I think I read somewhere that there's quite a bit of story about her meeting her future husband - was this cut from the pb? Can anyone fill me in?
Author:  Elbee [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Nightwing wrote:
I agree that Gillian Linton was a bit too boring as a schoolgirl but I don't think I've read enough of her as a teacher to make much of a distinction. I think I read somewhere that there's quite a bit of story about her meeting her future husband - was this cut from the pb? Can anyone fill me in?

It's in Three Go, and there is a whole chapter missing from the pb about how Gillian Linton takes Clem and Mary-Lou into Armiford to meet Clem's godfather, Peter Young, and he is immediately smitten :lol: . The chapter talks about their day in Armiford. (It was reading the pb when it was published, after having borrowed the hb from a friend's mum, that made me realise that the pbs were abridged, because I was sure I had read about Gillian Linton and Peter Young meeting for the first time!).

I like Gillian Linton in the Armiford books, I think she is a much more interesting character than when she was a pupil, but then alas she just disappears from the series, like so many others.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
It occurs to me that one of the reasons that I find myself almost thinking of various characters as entirely different in their child/schoolgirl and adult phases is that EBD shows 'maturity' quite often by getting rid of whatever marked characteristics their younger selves were most known for. So Joey loses her heedlessness, Mary-Lou grows out of her bumptiousness, Robin her delicacy, Simone her emotionalism, Frieda her shyness, Evadne her slangy mischief etc etc.

There are exceptions, of course, but I was just trying to think of, say, how you would describe the adult Simone if you were writing a character description for someone who hadn't read the Tirol books, and, really, she's a bit of a cipher by Rescue, apart from the defining characteristic that we're told she's No Longer an Overly Emotional Cry-baby. We keep being told what a splendid adult she is, and how much she's improved from her schoolgirl self, but all we really get told is that she's self-controlled and unselfish, and (at least according to Jack) unimaginative. Which is good, obviously, but there's far less to grasp in her than there is in, say, Grizel, who retains her dissatisfaction and edges into adulthood, only because she's presented as unhappy. I think the problem is that EBD, being an idealist, feels that growing up involves losing your imperfect side - at least if you're the best kind of CS girl! - so only the 'bad' characters retain recognisable aspects of their old selves, and most of that you only hear about, like the odd snippet that Joyce Linton remains selfish.

Likewise Robin by Exile appears to have grown out of her main plot-forwarding point - her delicacy - and thus, presumably because EBD would have been following early 20thc medical advice on potentially tubercular people being advised not to have children, has to be got rid of in some other, non-reproductive, way. Though I have to say I find slightly implausible the idea that she's too delicate for settlement work (possibly at one of the Oxford settlements in the East End of London), which by the 1950s no longer necessarily meant 'living in' in urban poverty, but was passed fit for a pre-Vatican II order of nuns, which would almost certainly have involved fairly spartan conditions - from what I know, one of the purposes of postulancy was to weed out those who were physically, as well as mentally, unable for the life, and those trainee nuns would be tested physically also.
Author:  Caroline [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Ahhh, but in that famed dry, bracing cold of Canada (which doesn't apparently exist in the bits of Canada EBD thought it did ... :roll: ), Robin would have been fine and strong and healthy.

However, in low lying, damp, soggy England / London / the UK, she was only ever one bad cold away from Consumption.

Or something like that, anyway.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Caroline wrote:
Ahhh, but in that famed dry, bracing cold of Canada (which doesn't apparently exist in the bits of Canada EBD thought it did ... :roll: ), Robin would have been fine and strong and healthy.

However, in low lying, damp, soggy England / London / the UK, she was only ever one bad cold away from Consumption.


I remain dubious! I just spent Christmas and New Year in the dry, bracing Bernese Oberland ski-ing and hiking and doing Chalet-ish things (fondue, featherbeds of whipped cream, snow-fights etc etc), well-wrapped up in the most modern outdoor gear and staying in a friend's chalet with picturesque woodstoves (and even coloured glasses!) etc, and both my partner and I managed to pick up violent colds and sore throats, probably from the continual changes in temperature between inside and outside, and are only recovering now we're back in dank, cold London!

Though I suppose the Robin wouldn't have been bringing in logs when it was minus fifteen degrees, or sent to check on the cows' wellbeing in a blizzard!
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
The climate in Switzerland, Austria and Canada really does seem to work wonders according to EBD ... I was horribly disappointed when a few days in Geneva failed to give me a perfect complexion :lol: :lol: .
Author:  Emma A [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I think Stacie's transition to adulthood is realistic: she loses the priggishness of her youth, understandably, and retains her love of books, learning and academia. I do like that after her book, she turns up in many subsequent books as a minor character, and is fairly consistently portrayed. I also like her in both child and adult incarnations (as could be guessed, I suppose :wink: ), though consider that EBD could have made slightly more of her achievements.

With respect to Alison's post, I was always amazed by Veronica's comments in A Dream of Sadlers Wells that she attributes the lovely complexions of Fiona and Caroline to coffee, creamy milk, and rich food!
Author:  Cat C [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Quote:
I was always amazed by Veronica's comments in A Dream of Sadlers Wells that she attributes the lovely complexions of Fiona and Caroline to coffee, creamy milk, and rich food!


Ah, but I think the comparison there is with someone brought up on kippers and baked beans in London smog!

I suspect Ms Hill would have had a rather tainted view of the 'benefits' of London life on the health of the people who lived there.
Author:  Jennie [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I think that you have to do the cold baths thing for the complexion, Alison. Geneva is too hot and too expensive for you to get the perfect complexion in just a few days.
Author:  JS [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Quote:
With respect to Alison's post, I was always amazed by Veronica's comments in A Dream of Sadlers Wells that she attributes the lovely complexions of Fiona and Caroline to coffee, creamy milk, and rich food!


Oh no, Emma, do you mean that's not true??
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
JS wrote:
Quote:
With respect to Alison's post, I was always amazed by Veronica's comments in A Dream of Sadlers Wells that she attributes the lovely complexions of Fiona and Caroline to coffee, creamy milk, and rich food!


Oh no, Emma, do you mean that's not true??


Maybe we should all give it a go and see :mrgreen:

ETA: Thanks, Elbee, for the info - sounds like I should definitely try and track down an uncut version of Three Go.
Author:  Meg14 [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Going back to the topic when I first read the later books I was really upset by what had happened to Madge. I really admired her entreprenurial spirit initially and the fact that she ends up so gentle I found disappointing. I know there is a point at whic Joey says she has regained her old snap and sparkle but I don't really feel this comes across in the book.

In terms of portrayal I never like the way Winne Silk/Silksworth goes from what is admitted a fairly nondescript character to being someone who is mainly commented on for her size (although may be it can be explained by an overindulgence on rich coffee, creamy food etc :D although I can't remember a description of a fantastic complexion!)
Author:  Mel [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
In reference to Winnie I always wonder why she and Jo suddenly become such buddies, ignoring Frieda who doesn't live that far away.
Author:  Cat C [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Reading this, it seems that it's not necessarily adulthood which turns interesting girls into boring women, it's more marriage and motherhood.

It's not instantaneous - Joey in Exile and Highland Twins is still worth reading about, as is Madge in the early years of life after Jem, but beyond that, I think EBD just had a 'married woman with children' character that was applied wholesale, with individuals being distinguished by name and appearance - all a bit Stepford Wives.

There are odd exceptions (eg Doris Carey, Mrs Barrass), but they're not very positive.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Mrs Barrass at least does more than sit around having babies and/or ill health and being sweet and passive. But yes, EBD doesn't intend her to be seen favourably.

Now you've raised the question, I'm finding it very hard to think of married women who are interesting, whereas there are many interesting single women, and some interesting widows, in EBD.

I suppose EBD didn't actually know what it was like to be a married woman. And if all the married women and mothers were perfect, there would be no problem girls for the CS to sort out.

And of course, no-one must outshine Joey!
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
The married women don't really get any storylines. All they seem to talk about is their children and who's put on weight! Reunion is a big let down apart from the stuff about Grizel, and it really annoys me that the brilliantly intelligent Daisy turns into someone who's totally disorganised and only talks about babies.

If we'd seen more of e.g. Madge's "very full life" as head of the local branch of the WI etc, or Gisela, Wanda and Frieda coping with their wartime experiences, or Marie Pfeifen as a person in her own right rather than as Madge's housekeeper, it might have been different. As it is, IMHO the most interesting adult women, other than the mistresses, are Grizel (before her marriage - we don't see much of her after that), Elisaveta (when her husband isn't around because of the War and again after EBD very nastily killed him off) and Stacie (single). Maria Marani also had the potential to be a very interesting character when she arrived in Switzerland in Problem, but we didn't see much of her after that, and Nina Rutherford was another. And I'd love to've seen more of Tom Gay as an adult.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I think part of the trouble is that EBD thinks that women want to go on and on having babies, ie Madge having the twins and Mollie having Daphne, so they are never allowed that time for themselves when the children are no longer so needy. At the end of the series Jo is as she was in Rescue, a doctor's wife who writes a few books, with small children in tow. She hasn't moved on at all.
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
My 14 year old daughter was telling me that her Home.Ec teacher brought in a text book which had been used for the teaching of 'domestic science' in the 1960's. The kids were, naturally, fascinated by the section on 'how to be a good wife' (or words to that effect), which included tips like rising at least an hour before one's husband in order to prepare a proper breakfast for him. In the evening, one should prepare for one's husband's homecoming and ensure that his home is a place of tranquility and peace. The good and dutiful wife should take a bath before his arrival so as to appear fresh and dainty (and no doubt 'trig') for him after his tough day at the office; she should reapply her make -up (lipstick and powder only!) and wear a 'gay' ribbon in her hair. She should ensure that all the children are either in bed or quietly occupied so as not to disturb him. The 'advice' goes on at length, apparently, and in the same vein. A brilliant read! And this is what the CS girls would have been taught, so it's hardly surprising that strong, entrepreneurial women like Madge Bettany et al lose so much of their spark after the ring has been slipped on their finger!
Author:  Pat [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
That was getting old-fashioned by then. Lots of married women were working even after having kids, and I know that Mum would have laughed at that attitude when I was a teen. She never did any of that!
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Perhaps not, but it was still part of the curriculum laid down by the Irish Department of Education. My own mother worked from the time I was six - early sixties, and my father most certainly regarded her as his equal in every way. In fact, she was the more influential parent and made most of the important decisions in the family. In this she was merely following the example of her own mother in her family of origin, which is not an ideal situation either. However, that still doesn't change the fact that women were still heavily descriminated by law. Up until the late 60's (might be even 1970) a husband could (a) sell the family home over his wife's head and (b) have his wife committed to a psychiatric hospital on the word of one psychiatrist. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. I think we tend to forget just how far women have come since the 1970's and the enormous debt we owe to the Women's Liberation Movement of the '70's.
Author:  JB [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
Quote:
My 14 year old daughter was telling me that her Home.Ec teacher brought in a text book which had been used for the teaching of 'domestic science' in the 1960's. The kids were, naturally, fascinated by the section on 'how to be a good wife'


A friend sent me a copy of page from a booklet from the early 1960s that would have been used to prepare girls for marriage (may have been British or Australian, i'm not sure) and it talked about how to behave in the bedroom.

One should wait until one's husband is asleep before putting in your curlers and covering yourself in face cream. One should also get up half an hour earlier than him to remove the same (before preparing a cooked breakfast).

It did also make veiled references to "unnautural practices" in the bedroom and going to bed with a headful of curlers definitely counts as unnatural in my book. :roll:
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
I would so love to get a copy of that!
Author:  Tor [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transition to adulthood
As a joke present ( I think!) before I got married, my aunt gave me a copy of "Don'ts for Wives", a reprint of a 1913 advice booklet (you can generally find it, and it's partner "Don'ts for Husbands" by the till at Waterstones etc).

It is hilariously outdated in places:

"don't let fashionable wives persuade you to give up your home and live in hotels or boarding-houses..." :?

but mostly it seems suprisingly more modern than the 1960's advice above, and more in-line with the CS. For example:

"Don't take any notice of people who tell you constantly that a wife's place in her husband's home, darning socks and stockings as women did in the good old days."

And

"Don't be talked down to by your husband when you want to express your views on any subject. You have a right to be heard"

It seems that advice to women moved backwards over the next 50 years, but then the early 20th century was also a revolutionary time for the women's movement, and this may have been a more radical pamphlet. Still, it might be that this was more in tune with EBDs generation of women than the post-war, nuclear family ideal.

The last 'don't' in the book is pure EBD:

"Don't grudge the years you spend on child-bearing and child-rearing. Remember you are training future citizens, and it is the most important mission in the world."
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