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Trained to obedience....
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Author:  Nesomja [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Trained to obedience....

This has probably been covered a million times before but does anyone else find the repeated references to 'absolute obedience' or being 'trained to obedience' sinister? I find myself having images of girls trotting off obediently to be abused :( . There's so much authority invested in certain male figures, and if one of them had ulterior motives it would be disasterous. Of course, in CS world they never would but still...

Also, when do you think this instant obedience stopped - if ever? Was there a moment when the CS girls officially became adults and were now no longer instantly obedient and instead were able to command the instant obedience of others?

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I think the idea was that if you learnt to be disciplined, you would also learn self-discipline in due course. I don't think it was meant as sinister as it sounds - more a question of putting your toys away and washing your hands before lunch NOW, not in ten minutes, and not having to be asked to do so more than once.

After all, at boarding-school you had to go and do things when the bell went - no "last few minutes" in bed, or not going to prayers when the bell went, so you might as well learn that sort of self-discipline early.

It probably does sound creepy to us; but our ideas are very different today!

Author:  Nesomja [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

But how did they engender this sort of obedience, given that presumably there was no physical punishment going on? Was it all down to those terrible talks with Mademoiselle or were they just more biddable than teenagers nowadays? At my boarding school (in the 1990s) they certainly would have liked us to be instantly obedient to things such as lights out and punctuality to meals and lesson times but in practice this was often not the case, we had obviously not been trained to obedience!

Author:  Pado [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Weren't they supposed to have arrived at school already well trained as children, so that they could serve as role models for the undisciplined Americans and Australians, having only the occasional break into "nice naughtiness" as lower fourths? :)

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

It seems to've been mainly Continental girls - if we include Robin in that - who were "trained to instant obedience".

I can see that it would have had some advantages with small children, and even with older ones e.g. when Mlle de Lachennais told everyone to get out of the way of Emerence's toboggan and they all (except Mary-Lou!) obeyed without questioning. It would've reduced the chances of getting into danger, and hopefully avoided situations such as kids having tantrums in shops. &, annoying though school rules can be, if everyone goes around doing their own thing in a big organisation then it can soon get pretty manic.

I do find it rather creepy, though. The expression sounds like something you'd do with a caged animal rather than with a child. & it sounds as if the children concerned are discouraged from thinking for themselves: in Head Girl , we're told that several of the girls are shocked at the mere suggestion that Grizel should try to change her father's mind about her further education, even though studying music is not what she wants and will make her unhappy.

I wonder how some of the girls went on when they were at college/university, and had to look after themselves after years of just being taught to obey instructions. & did some girls think they were supposed just to go from blindly obeying parents and teachers to blindly obeying a husband?

It's another of many contradictions - being healthy and active but also fragile and interesting, or not being a spineless jellyfish but bursting into tears in the Head's office. Girls are supposed to think intelligently about things but also to obey every instruction unquestioningly.

Author:  Sunglass [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I've always found it most sinister, but put it down to the fact EBD clearly knew very little about small children and babies, and was a theoretical traditionalist in terms of childrearing. Also, she never considers, despite the presence of mad Prince Cosimo, the Cochrane parents, Lindley Carrick and the madman from the salt caves in the early books, that adults can be fallible, evil or mentally ill, so that training a child to obey any adult command 'on the word' - without questioning, on the assumption that 'adults know best' - is liable to land you in a situation like Robin happily going off with the madman because it simply never occurred to her that 'it was naughty'. An adult suggested a fun outing, and she could see no reason not to obey him. That should surely have made the CS question such methods!

I do think, in fairness, that EBD tries, slightly clumsily, to reconcile the 'child instant obedience' thing with the transition to adulthood at times, like in Adrienne when Hilda talks to Janet about adolescents resenting restraint or criticism because they're neither child nor adult:

Quote:
“Begin with the baby, my dear. You can’t afford to neglect even the first weeks of a baby’s life. I’ve seen that with Mrs Maynard. From the very first her children have learn certain things – obedience among them. The child reaches girlhood – or boyhood – with obedience engrained in its character. By degrees it becomes possible to drop the ‘you must’ attitude. Then one ought to see that any order is reasonable. If a child can see that, so much the better. If not then try to take time to give your reasons for it. Most of us are reasonable folk, Janet, if we’re given the chance. So if you start with all that sort of thing with a baby, certain qualities belong to one’s character and, unless one is a hopeless jellyfish, they won’t give way, even under severe strain.


Of course, this still depends on adults reliably issuing 'reasonable' rather than unreasonable orders to children, and the theory doesn't really get to grips with the fact that a child may have been 'trained' to obey completely wrong-headed commands as second nature - or that there might be different positions as regards what 'correct' behaviour might be, and that you might realise as you grow up that yours was bad or damaging.

But as ever with EBD, she actually creates more challenging and subtle characters and situations than her inflexible theories of proper childrearing allow. It's not just a contrast between 'instant obedience' and a 'never say no' upbringing like Emerence's. Look at Eustacia, who has been trained by two well-educated adults with strong ideas on child education, but not according to CS ideas of proper behaviour, or Thekla, who's absorbed her parents' social exclusiveness as gospel, or even Adrienne, who's terribly obedient, hard-working and well-meaning, but viewed as dangerously close to goody-good and priggish by her peers...? Or, within the Maynards, Mike and Margot, who got Joey's 'perfect' training but are nonetheless firebrands?

I think EBD's actual dramatic situations are much more interesting and humanly messy than her theory!

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I actually think it's interesting to understand who insists on unquestioning obedience and why. Jack, Jem and Madge all do and all have had bad experiences with family members not obeying. Joey continually disobeyed Madge, admittedly to rescue people, but it did scare Madge continually and she had a daughter who was kidnapped as the result of untrained disobedient children. Jem's family was torn apart because Margot disobeyed her parents and eloped and it does sound like he tried to keep in touch even afterwards as he replied to Margot's letter about Daisy. And finally Jack's tragedy of Rolf dying due to disobedience; I could see how that would scar him for life and make him determined, he would not lose any of his children due to disobedience.

At times I can see the point of it. If a kid runs out on the road in front of a car, instant obedience would be a wonderful thing to have, but I think it's unrealistic to expect that as until a child is old enough to do it and by that stage, they're usually well and truly over running out on the road.

Madge although she agrees with it for the most part does point out how hard it is being on the receiving end of bad parents insistence of unquestioning obedience. She is extremely sympathetic towards Grizel who has always been told to be obedient and then nagged into it and Madge above everyone sees how detrimental that has been to Grizel and reacts to Grizel accordingly, making it a point to explain why she expects what she does and helps lead her to being a better person. I think Madge's understanding of Grizel was the basis of the tradition at the Chalet School to try and understand others and the why behind their behaviour

Author:  Cel [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I think there is a distinction between the 'instant obedience' of small children - going to bed immediately when told, putting away your toys without argument, and so on - and the 'unquestioning obedience' of the older girls - like the Continental girls expecting Grizel to obey her father's wishes for her career even though it'll make her miserable. The former is a reasonable parenting aim (and doesn't preclude teaching children about 'stranger danger' - even very obedient young kids can be taught not to talk to strange adults); it's the latter type I have a problem with.

Author:  cestina [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I think in the 1930s or thereabouts it started even earlier than the small child putting away its toys when told.

One of the family doctor books I have from the 1930s has a whole section on training the new born baby which contains such gems as "6.30am - remove his nappies, hold baby out over a metal utensil (ie until he pees) and put on fresh nappies." "Repeat this after the feed". It goes on to say "Put baby out in the garden in his pram and do not go near him-in winter it is permissable to wait until sunrise. Baby will sleep until 9.30am"

The whole day is divided into exact timings and the expectation is that baby WILL conform.....and that expectation would carry on into childhood.

And there would certainly have been physical punishment in the home as a matter of course, if not at school.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

cestina, I watched a program about child rearing - six families each chose one of three different methods, two of them using that one. Everything was timed to the minute, and it was really interesting that actually the babies picked it up so quickly. Even once when somebody was five minutes out with a feed they started to scream, and they were the first babies to sleep properly through the night. Plus, of course, it's much easier for parents to get back into their routine quickly.

Back OT :oops: it never struck me as particularly sinister. After all, it seems, in the beginning, to be more about the continental girls, which I never really questioned. Yes it seems slightly Victorian now, but I certainly think that there are advantages to it. And as other people have said, in a big place such as a boarding school it would almost have to be enforced to ensure order.

It is, I think, a little wholesale, but speaking personally (and as someone certainly not trained to instant obedience!) I think that it's probably better than the other extreme of having no control over your children at all.

Author:  ammonite [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I saw that TV program as well, it was fascinating as one of the other methods was having the child with continually 24/7. I think personally somewhere in between the two methods would be perfect!

The obedience thing is probably a left over from the women and children are the property of man and therefore should obey. It comes from the days of arranged marriages and training children to be seen and not heard. The parents who would send their children to boarding school often didn't look after them personally and had a Nanny or Nurse to care for the children with contact with the parents only ocasionally, say for an hour after tea and even then that could be curtailed. Children were supposed to be ornaments to the family until the time when they grew up and made an advantageous marriage to further the family ambitions, probably arranged.
It is a far cry from today's society and we probably get the difference in the English/American girls to the Continental training due to EBDs view of the continent as stuck in the last century and the modern viewpoint created by womens suffrage and the effect of WW1 on womens roles in society wouldn't have occurred to the same extent there as in the UK. Although having looked it up Austrian women gained the right to vote in the same year as the UK, without the restrictions that were imposed in the UK. Switzerland though didn't give women the vote until 1971 and France was only in 1944, so continental attitudes to women and children can be seen to have some basis perhaps in EBDs writing.

Author:  Nesomja [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Presumably Joey was using a variant of this routine method when she started training her children to obedience in the first few weeks of their lives? I think it is part of a very Victorian attitude to children - talking to my mother recently, who was brought up in the 1940s but in the rather old fashioned atmosphere of a public school (her father was a teacher) and with a full time nanny from birth, she said she thought it had been devastating for her and her sister - unquestioning obedience was required, and it meant no one ever really listened to her point of view, and she wasn't expected to make a fuss if no one could make time for her but instead should entertain herself. For her it meant that she found university very difficult and didn't really have a clue what interested her.
I think this is probably an area where EBD's lack of children shows - I also saw that programme and thought some sort of routine looked good until I had my son who had completely different ideas and still doesn't sleep through the night at 20 months. I can't see that he's ever going to be instantly obedient, although I think there is a difference between the 'get out of the way of a sled' obedience and the 'time to go to bed' obedience or at least there should be! The tone of voice would be different for a start.

I agree that Robin's experience with the madman should really have made the CS question their attitute to instant obedience!

Author:  ammonite [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

In the TV programme, the ignore the child way to total obedience(along with lots of fresh air!) was represented as the 1950s method. I forget the name of the childcare author they mentioned.

Having just googled it, the TV programme was called 'Bringing up Baby' and was on Channel 4. THe strict method was based on the works of Trudy King in the 1950s, there was the instinct approach from the 60s based on the Spock philosophy and a method called continuim from the 70s based on continual contact with the child for the first 6 months. I can't see Joey doing that - and with triplets it would have been impossible. One for Joey, One for Jack and a spare? Or carrying around two babies for 6 months!

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Nesomja wrote:
I agree that Robin's experience with the madman should really have made the CS question their attitute to instant obedience!


But why? Robin had been taught not to go off with strangers/leave the school without permission and here she so clearly did. It's one of the few times we see Robin being disobedient

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Fiona Mc wrote:
Nesomja wrote:
I agree that Robin's experience with the madman should really have made the CS question their attitute to instant obedience!


But why? Robin had been taught not to go off with strangers/leave the school without permission and here she so clearly did. It's one of the few times we see Robin being disobedient


But had she been taught that? I've always taken it at face value that she 'never knew it was naughty' or whatever it is she actually says afterwards - and assumed that, Robin being the utterly biddable and obedient child we're always told she is, if she had been 'trained' on this issue, she would have obeyed, as always. So I assumed she isn't being consciously disobedient because it never occurred to her that she was doing anything wrong by going off with an adult who told her to come with him to see the fairies - that 'obeying' an adult, even if it was a stranger, was the natural thing to do for her, because of her training. Or that the presence of an actual adult telling her to do one thing overcame the memory of other adults giving a different rule about not leaving CS grounds...? Who does she obey when there are conflicting commands?

The same kind of thing is also in my mind when Robin is locked up by the original Bad Matron, and goes absolutely hysterical - I think because she can't get her head around the fact that she did nothing wrong, and an adult is behaving unjustly and arbitrarily, which messes up all the principles she's been trained to.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I think that Robin becomes hysterical because she's been locked in a room, myself. I should imagine that for a young child unused to being punished, being locked in a room would have been terrifying; she could have been thinking all sorts about never being let out, and Tante Marguerite refusing to have her in the school after that... The childish imagination does tend to run away with one, even later in life, I've found.

Personally, I would think that the Robin had been told not to go off with strangers - but thinks of it in much the same way that Joey thinks about it, i.e. that it's ok to break it in certain situations (seeing the faeries, looking after your brother-in-law's long lost sister).

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Unfortunately it's not unrealistic that a young child, however often they've been told not to go off with strangers, might forget/ignore what they've been told if someone asked if they wanted to ... well, see the fairies seems a bit odd, but perhaps see some puppies or kittens.

Just trying to look at it a different way, when Joey goes chasing off after Elisaveta, another one who has left school premises despite being warned that she in particular is not to go off on her own, especially with strangers, Mlle Lepattre very understandably bemoans the fact that Joey and Elisaveta have both put themselves in danger whereas when she was that age she'd've gone straight to tell an adult what had happened. Joey should also have gone straight to tell Madge that Grizel had run off to climb the Tiernjoch, instead of going after her by herself, and both Grizel and Joey should have gone to tell a member of staff that Robin had gone missing. They don't seem to be able to get the balance right between thinking for themselves and doing what's best for everyone's safety :lol: .

I can certainly imagine Madge heartily wishing that both Joey and Grizel had been trained to instant obedience after hearing that one of them'd gone missing yet again, and Cornelia and Elisaveta were certainly old enough to know not to go off with strangers, even if Robin wasn't. People like Gisela and Frieda never end up getting themselves into danger - boring, admittedly, but safer!

Author:  Cel [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Sunglass wrote:
Fiona Mc wrote:
Nesomja wrote:
I agree that Robin's experience with the madman should really have made the CS question their attitute to instant obedience!


But why? Robin had been taught not to go off with strangers/leave the school without permission and here she so clearly did. It's one of the few times we see Robin being disobedient


But had she been taught that? I've always taken it at face value that she 'never knew it was naughty' or whatever it is she actually says afterwards - and assumed that, Robin being the utterly biddable and obedient child we're always told she is, if she had been 'trained' on this issue, she would have obeyed, as always. So I assumed she isn't being consciously disobedient because it never occurred to her that she was doing anything wrong by going off with an adult who told her to come with him to see the fairies - that 'obeying' an adult, even if it was a stranger, was the natural thing to do for her, because of her training. Or that the presence of an actual adult telling her to do one thing overcame the memory of other adults giving a different rule about not leaving CS grounds...? Who does she obey when there are conflicting commands?


But I don't think there's anything else in the books to suggest that the 'instant obedience' is expected in response to any adult who gives an order, rather than just the parent or other authority figure (teacher, friend's father, etc.). And since this would be a very bizarre thing to teach a child, I'd be inclined to give the CS the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Author:  Nesomja [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

ammonite wrote:
In the TV programme, the ignore the child way to total obedience(along with lots of fresh air!) was represented as the 1950s method. I forget the name of the childcare author they mentioned.
Having just googled it, the TV programme was called 'Bringing up Baby' and was on Channel 4. THe strict method was based on the works of Trudy King in the 1950s, there was the instinct approach from the 60s based on the Spock philosophy and a method called continuim from the 70s based on continual contact with the child for the first 6 months. I can't see Joey doing that - and with triplets it would have been impossible. One for Joey, One for Jack and a spare? Or carrying around two babies for 6 months!



So training a young baby to obedience was another way of saying 'leaving them to cry until they stop?'. Sounds a bit less like perfect mothering like that.

Re: the Robin/madman debate, she obviously didn't understand the distinction between who she was meant to be obedient to and who not, even if one was clearly made. I think this is an example of EBD treating her as much younger than she was again though, more like a 3 or 4 year old than the 8 or 9 (?) year old she was.

Author:  Artemis [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I used the Continuum method with both my girls, who are now 18 and 14. It involved co-sleeping in a family bed, breastfeeding on demand and for an extended period, and wearing the baby in a sling.

Without the help of the extended family that more 'primitive' (in quotes because I don't think they are actually primitive) tribal societies enjoy, it was damn hard work but I've never regretted it - and when I read the CS books, the Truby King method feels like a recipe for an insecure, frightened baby.

To each their own however: I guess it's what works for you . . .

Author:  Mel [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

What I wonder about is the fact that it was Robin's gentle 'little' mother who enforced the instant obedience. I would imagine that you would have to be very tough and fierce to do it - someone like Grandma in Gay might manage it. Query - why was Joey not taught instant obedience if she was brought up by Madge, that 'iron disciplinarian.'

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Mel wrote:
What I wonder about is the fact that it was Robin's gentle 'little' mother who enforced the instant obedience. I would imagine that you would have to be very tough and fierce to do it - someone like Grandma in Gay might manage it. Query - why was Joey not taught instant obedience if she was brought up by Madge, that 'iron disciplinarian.'


Isn't there a suggestion when David is a small baby, that it's tyrannical old Jem who's enforcing the idea of training babies to instant obedience? I can't remember quite where, but David is howling in his pram, and Madge wants to pick him up, but Jem forbids it on the grounds of 'spoiling' him.

I think I always formed the idea that Madge's pre-Jem ideas were somewhat more flexible - Joey never looks like the result of 'instant obedience' training for sure, and we're told she was always brought into family councils and decisions etc, plus Dick was clearly a bit of a pushover as an authority figure, compared to bossy Jem.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Madge was only 12 years older than Joey, so when Joey was a very small child Madge would still have been at school and presumably a nanny looked after Joey.

I also get the impression that Jem was the one with the strict ideas. I reckon that Mr and Mrs Russell senior - such loving parents that they disowned their daughter when she married a man they disliked - must have been real iron disciplinarians. Maybe poor Jem got a good thrashing every time he did the slightest thing wrong :( and, to paraphrase George V's famous remark, took the view that he was terrified of his father so his sons were going to be terrified of him. Actually, that's probably rather harsh: Jem is lovely sometimes :D .

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Alison H wrote:
Madge was only 12 years older than Joey, so when Joey was a very small child Madge would still have been at school and presumably a nanny looked after Joey.


Do you know, I'd never thought of that. In my mind I had always had this image of a young Jo (not as a baby - older) and Madge being of an age when she could look after her little sister, having finished her education herself.
Of course, as you point out Alison H, actually their parents died when Jo was a baby, so Madge would have been only 12+. Interesting. So who didactually look after them all? How would that have affected Madge's and (to a lesser extent) Dick's education? Where would they have lived and who with? Their guardian, I suppose, but wasn't he a single older man?

Author:  RubyGates [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

From what I'd read in the paperbacks I'd picked up the idea that the Bettanys lived with their guardian but that there was a lot of input from "The Aunts". I also think the aunts are supposed to have large families and can't do a lot to help out financially but as someone mentioned on another thread, what happened to these large families? We never hear of any cousins being asked to attend the Chalet School or any mention of the cousins' children. They just disappear into the EBD limbo where so many are destined to follow.......!

Author:  Rob [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

julieanne1811 wrote:
Do you know, I'd never thought of that. In my mind I had always had this image of a young Jo (not as a baby - older) and Madge being of an age when she could look after her little sister, having finished her education herself.
Of course, as you point out Alison H, actually their parents died when Jo was a baby, so Madge would have been only 12+. Interesting. So who didactually look after them all? How would that have affected Madge's and (to a lesser extent) Dick's education? Where would they have lived and who with? Their guardian, I suppose, but wasn't he a single older man?


RubyGates wrote:
From what I'd read in the paperbacks I'd picked up the idea that the Bettanys lived with their guardian but that there was a lot of input from "The Aunts".


I also understood from the hints in the early books that the Bettanys lived with their guardian and that he was a single man (although I suppose he could have been a widower? - actually, unless he was only appointed as he was the familiy lawyer or something, like Betty Wynne-Davies guardian, would a single man have been considered suitable to raise children at this time?) Anyhow, assuming that either he hadn't been married or that he had and then his wife died, I think convention at the time for someone of his means and social class, certainly until Madge was old enough to keep house, would be to have had a cook/housekeeper to take care of all those womanly chores that he would be unsuited for :roll: . My grandad certainly was largely 'mothered' by great grandad's housekeeper, as his mother and both grandmothers died before he was six.

Given the way that EBD deals with girls being 'needed at home' e.g. Rosalie, Elfie etc. I would guess that had EBD written about this, Madge would have had to leave school as early as possible - I think the minimun school leaving age at this time would have been about 14 - and she, in conjunction with the cook/housekeeper (or initially their guardians wife?) would have cared for Joey from a very early age.

RubyGates wrote:
I also think the aunts are supposed to have large families and can't do a lot to help out financially but as someone mentioned on another thread, what happened to these large families? We never hear of any cousins being asked to attend the Chalet School or any mention of the cousins' children. They just disappear into the EBD limbo where so many are destined to follow.......!


This is a good point. You would think that given the risky nature of starting a school in a foreign country, one way that the Aunts might have been able to help, even if they couldn't support Madge and Joey financially themselves, would have been to send their daughters to the CS so that Madge would get the school fees. I suppose EBD could have imagined that the families were all boys or else that they were so poor that they couldn't afford this, but still it does seem odd. Later on in the series, various new girls are found to be related to various old girls through previously unmentioned relatives, whilst these relatives who were built into the earliest stories, are never mentioned again. It would have made so much more sense (to me anyway) if for example, Erica Standish had turned out to be a distant cousin of Joey's, rather than the daughter of someone she had met for six months or so, fifteen years earlier. Actually though, IIRC Joey didn't like visiting the Aunts - I seem to remember her complaining about it in one of their pre-war visits to England? If so, perhaps when Jo grew up she stopped visiting them?

Given the way in which Juliet, who was Madge's ward and almost another sister to Joey, is written out of the series (with the exception of her cameo in Reunion), it is hardly suprising that lesser characters are never seen again. I always thought it sad that Meg O'Hara was never mentioned as attending the CS although her cousin Tessa Wynne (Hillis?!) does come. Perhaps Juliet was so scarred by her parents attempts to abandon her at school she refused to send her own children away ... or alternatively Meg and the Bettany cousins could all have attended the English branch!

Edited: to remove extra word

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Rob wrote:
Given the way that EBD deals with girls being 'needed at home' e.g. Rosalie, Elfie etc. I would guess that had EBD written about this, Madge would have had to leave school as early as possible - I think the minimun school leaving age at this time would have been about 14 - and she, in conjunction with the cook/housekeeper (or initially their guardians wife?) would have cared for Joey from a very early age.


But that wouldn't really fit with Madge's marvellous Literature lessons, would it? She is given this amazing ability to teach Eng Lit, especially Shakespeare, but if she'd left school early I don't really see how she could have developed this skill ...

Author:  Rob [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

julieanne1811 wrote:
But that wouldn't really fit with Madge's marvellous Literature lessons, would it? She is given this amazing ability to teach Eng Lit, especially Shakespeare, but if she'd left school early I don't really see how she could have developed this skill ...

Thats true. To be classic EBD then, the Bettanys guardian either must have been married (and his wife was alive until after Madge had finished her schooling) or, if he wasn't married (or his wife died before before Madge finished at school), then he had a handy sister/daughter/cousin who could come and keep house/look after Joey in the interim period. :lol:

Author:  Llywela [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Rob wrote:
Given the way that EBD deals with girls being 'needed at home' e.g. Rosalie, Elfie etc. I would guess that had EBD written about this, Madge would have had to leave school as early as possible - I think the minimun school leaving age at this time would have been about 14 - and she, in conjunction with the cook/housekeeper (or initially their guardians wife?) would have cared for Joey from a very early age.

This is certainly what happened to my grandmother in the '30s - her mother died when she was 14, and although she was a very bright girl, she had to leave school to keep house for her father and younger brother (there were a lot of older sisters, but those not yet married were already earning, and their wages were considered more important than the youngest sister's continued education!)

However, as others have said, if Madge had left school so very early to take up a housekeeping/caring role within the household, she would not have the necessary education to teach at the school she set up.

Author:  claire [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Just googled it and school leaving age was raised to 14 (from 12) in 1918, so she actually may have just eeked into the able to leave at 12.

If the guardian was into literature and so on she may have kept this up herself and some people are keen on learning that they carry on themselves - maybe Madge fits in this

Author:  cal562301 [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

claire wrote:
Just googled it and school leaving age was raised to 14 (from 12) in 1918, so she actually may have just eeked into the able to leave at 12.

If the guardian was into literature and so on she may have kept this up herself and some people are keen on learning that they carry on themselves - maybe Madge fits in this


OT but interesting, is the fact that David Bellamy, the well-known TV personality was one of these. He left school early without taking exams, but much later did a PhD (and presumably a first degree).

Much less common for a woman to have that opportunity, though, especially when Madge was young.

Author:  Tor [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Quote:
I think I always formed the idea that Madge's pre-Jem ideas were somewhat more flexible


There is that great scene in Jo of (I think?) where Herr Mensch is extolling the virtues of instant obedience, and Jem is all in favour, and Madge just goes all quiet, but in a very 'I am not impressed' way. Like Cel, I differentiate between instant and unquestioning obedience. The 'continental' mentality that EBD portrays (where people like Frieda wouldn't even dream of disagreeing with their parents - this is one of the many reasons I think Frieda is dull as dishwater. Bovine springs to mind, when I think of her... *runs and hides*) is, I think, horrifying. Its much more usual in the books for children to do as they are told quick-smart, but with a lot of (internal or external) grumbling; this is presented as good and healthy.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Mel wrote:
What I wonder about is the fact that it was Robin's gentle 'little' mother who enforced the instant obedience. I would imagine that you would have to be very tough and fierce to do it - someone like Grandma in Gay might manage it. Query - why was Joey not taught instant obedience if she was brought up by Madge, that 'iron disciplinarian.'


Not necessarily, if the child is an easy going biddable child who wants to please people then they will tend to obedient rather than a more strong willed child. I know in Lavender or Gay however, the next generation all say that Madge is nomally stricter than Jem but when Josette was burnt it was the other way round with Jem being angry and Madge forgiving Sybil striaght away. The impression I get from Madge as I said earlier is she tries to understand the why of the disobedience as with Grizel and work around that

Author:  Mel [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Yet Frieda who is brought up to instant obedience is very gentle and cannot enforce obedience on her son without male help. In Rescue she sorrowfully warns him that he will be sent to Onkel (?) if he does not improve. Louis is about 3/4 at the time.

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I was thinking about the What Katy Did books the other day - in relation to another CBB thread :D - and, IIRC, there's a mixed view of being trained to instant obedience in those. Katy's accident, like several of those in the CS books, occurs because she disobeys instructions given by an adult. However, there's an implication that Aunt Izzie should have explained that the swing was not to be used because it needed repairing, rather than expecting a girl of Katy's age to do/not do something just "because I said so".

I'm trying to think of one in the CS books that's similar ... perhaps Joey's accident at the ice carnival, after Madge had told the girls just that they were banned from going, without explaining that it was because Herr Braun'd told her that things tended to get rowdy.

Author:  RubyGates [ Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

I think it was in relation to the ice carnival (at work so i can't check the books); there's something about Joey being happy to obey if there's a reason (or was it reasonable?) for the order. So presumably if Madge had gone into more detail then Joey would have stayed at home. Mind you even then hadn't she changed her mind about going but Simone or Frieda goaded her into it?

Author:  Rob [ Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Alison H wrote:
there's an implication that Aunt Izzie should have explained that the swing was not to be used because it needed repairing, rather than expecting a girl of Katy's age to do/not do something just "because I said so".

I'm trying to think of one in the CS books that's similar ...

This idea is brought up in Shocks although almost in reverse! In the incident with Emerence, Rosalie and the stairs, after she has capitulated, Emmy goes to see Miss Annersley who explains why they shouldn't use the front stairs. Emmy asks why Miss Dene didn't just tell her this and gets told "Orders are orders, Emerence, and you must obey them"; however she is told that if she doesn't see the reason for a rule in future, that she should find someone and ask them about it, rather than flatly disobeying it, although it is suggested that she should be able to reason it out for herself...

Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

As the mother of 3 under 5, the whole concept of "trained to (instant)obediance" sounds delightful.

Author:  Simone [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trained to obedience....

Dreaming Marianne wrote:
As the mother of 3 under 5, the whole concept of "trained to (instant)obediance" sounds delightful.


As the mother of one 6 year old - I was thinking exactly the same :lol:


Edited to make sense

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