The CBB :: View topic - Too academic for marriage?

Jack Maynard has out his foot down firmly on any more of it for the next three or four months. Coming over here from Freudesheim will be a different matter. Three days a week won’t be too much for her.

And I always thought it was only for that term, Jack put his foot down. He was one of her original doctors for her back accident so could see why Stacie would listen to him. She very much seemed to come and go as she pleased after that term and had her own wing, so Jack obviously realised Stacie needed her space and independence

I only hope you're right about its being a temporary arrangement. The Maynards are kind I grant you, and I'm sure as unobtrusive as possible, but it still smacks of a benign incarceration.

The older girls all knew her of course. She had been occupying a wing of Freudesheim for the past year or so and attended school functions when she could.

I think we're meant to see Stacie as a bluestocking and traditionally people thought that men weren't interested in bluestockings. And Margia doesn't marry either, and I get the impression that Nina won't, so maybe EBD just thought that someone obsessive about their work wouldn't be interested in marriage anyway. But, as MJKB said, it didn't stop Stacie's parents from getting together. She must have been bored stiff listening to Hilary, Biddy et al swapping tales about potty training and toddler tantrums.

which was she at, anyone know?

I always assumed Stacie and a lot of her generation didn't marry because there weren't a lot men to choose from because of WWII.

I can see why it might be a bit sad for Stacie to end up permanently at Freudesheim if what she really wants is to go back to the academic world, but what's wrong with her not getting married? Some people are just not the marrying kind, and maybe Stacie was happier on her own

She seems to be a high achiever before then, though. One of the girls (forget who, but she says that her dad's really into Greek stuff and'd talked a lot about "E Benson"'s translations) was very impressed to find out that Stacie was a CS Old Girl. I'd think EBD put her in the "married to the job" category.

“Who was she?” Eilunedd demanded. “I’ve never heard of her.”

“Good heavens! Not heard of Stacie Benson!” Nita exclaimed. “Why, she’s the E. Benson who’s been doing translations of some Greek stuff—don’t ask me what, for I don’t remember!—that have made a tremendous stir in the world. I’ve heard Dad talking about them, and he said they were wizard!”

Eilunedd opened her eyes. “Was that a pupil here once?” she cried. “I’ve heard my father on the subject, and he said they were the most scholarly works of the kind he’s ever seen. But I thought it was a man did them. You don’t mean to say it was just a girl?”

“Well, she’s not exactly a girl now,” Peggy said, tugging at a curl that had come loose from her slide. “She must be quite thirty. But she used to be at this school.”

Is Mr Vaughan a noted scholar thenm that his words will be taken with such imporatnce? Or is his view valid simply bcos of his sex?

ClaireK wrote:

Is Mr Vaughan a noted scholar thenm that his words will be taken with such imporatnce? Or is his view valid simply bcos of his sex?

It's a very telling little exchange - it's not just Mr Vaughan, but also Nita's father who is so knowledgeable - both girls quote their fathers on the subject as though they were the sacred mouthpieces of all things Classics! Because God forbid their mothers might have thoughts on whether Stacie's translations are any good or not... Or that a CS girl might think her father hadn't a clue about Thucydides translations!

However, if one had studied the classics - would you really then keep up with all the developments, new translations etc?

Stacie is a great example of a girl who was able to live her own life and to be higly successful, without a man. WOuld she have had to give up her studies if she was married to confomr to EBDs ideas, I wonder?

I do, however, get slightly defensive of Stacie's mother - apart from misdiagnosing her own illness (which, outside the world of the CS, is just a fact of life as a doctor), all we specifically hear EBD thinks she's done wrong is to give her daughter a horrendous name and to have 'childrearing theories'. Well, personally, I dislike the names Josephine, Madge and Frieda every bit as much as I do Eustacia - that's not to denigrate the names, just to say that whether or not one likes a name is purely down to personal taste! And everyone who has a child has childrearing theories, whether or not they think of them as such - Jem's ideas about training babies to instant obedience are theories, as are Joey's decision to have the children call her and Jack 'Mamma' and 'Papa' and to have them confess their sins to her at bedtome!

Yes, Eustacia is a pain when she arrives at the CS, which suggests in EBD's terms, a 'bad' parental training - but someone who turns out to be far more obnoxious in hte long run, Jack Lambert, never has her bullying blamed on bad parenting...?

I don't know why living at Freudesheim for a while should evoke such sympathy. Maybe Stacie found it perfectly pleasant to spend a year or so in a beautiful alpine setting with plenty of time and space to work, the opportunity to do a bit of teaching, and old friends nearby when she wanted them. And as for 'intellectual stimulation', there were probably at least one or two people at the world-renowned medical centre five minutes away that she could deign to spend an evening in conversation with. Sounds all right to me...

I cold never understand how EBD thought that Len was "a pretty name" - which i'm sure someone says at one point. I think it is horrid and sounds like a man - and an old man at that. Maybe i am thinking of Len Fairclough of Corrie??

Cel wrote:

Actually I can't think of anything better.....

Whoops!
Lenny the Lion was cute, if that helps?

If I remember rightly, Stacie's decision to move into the apartment at Freudsheim was partly, at least, the result of Jack and Joey's concerns for her health. While she thrived academically in Oxford, it was almost 'too relaxing' for her healthwise. They felt she would be much better off living in Switzerland ...

I like the idea of relaxing air. Where can I get some?

Or what if she was an international book thief, and was having to lie low after pinching manuscripts from Duke Humphrey's Library?

jayj wrote:

Or what if she was an international book thief, and was having to lie low after pinching manuscripts from Duke Humphrey's Library?

Which she wanted to stash in a vault in a Swiss bank :wink:

That would clear up our concern about the lack of a library near Freudesheim.

For academia is nothing if not full of clashing egos, rivalries, gossip, jealousies, politics, scandal, sexual tension and the like.

I always wonder if CS Lewis was a closet CS fan and named Eustace after Eustacia, but maybe not ...

What does all this say about EBD's opinion of herself ? She never married...

Even if, as we're told 'Oxford doesn't suit her' (air too relaxing, like Joey in the New Forest, one presumes?)

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

Even if, as we're told 'Oxford doesn't suit her' (air too relaxing, like Joey in the New Forest, one presumes?)

I'm not sure EBD ever came to Oxford, it has its own strange microclimate and is bloody cold a lot of the time - I'd have thought she'd class the air here as "bracing" :lol:

She certainly sees marriage as the 'highest calling' for a woman, and if a choice has to be made between career and marriage it's marriage every time. For a woman like Stacy who is highly qualiied and devoted to her work, marriage is not a serious option.

It would just have made a lot more sense to choose someone like Elisaveta, who had no strong ties to where they were living, rather than Stacie.

ETA - it always surprises me that someone who, er, takes as much interest in other people's business as Joey does never tries to matchmake. She gets a bit involved with Juliet's romance and Grizel's romance, but only after the relationships had already got going. I would've expected her to invite eligible doctors and eligible CS staff to dinner at the same time, and then do a Mrs Bennet and find excuses for herself and Jack to leave the room so that the prospective couple would be left alone together

Alison H wrote:

Don't forget her disastrous interference in Len's :twisted:

As regards the others, perhaps Hilda warned her off because she didn't want a brain drain from the school.

I wonder if EBD actually believed having sex might damage a bad back/rheumatic limbs?

Sophie Hamel remained single (I hope that doesn't mean that EBD went through life being told that men weren't interested in girls who weren't thin

)

I wonder about Frank and Phoebe. It's possible that they just weren't able to conceive, but it certainly sounds as if Phoebe had been advised not to conceive because of the strain that pregnancy could put on her heart ... in which case they must have either been "careful" or had separate bedrooms.

I'm not sure how much EBD thought about it all :lol:

- in (I think) Island we get Joey telling Jack that they should think about having another baby, which does suggest some sort of planning, and the spaces between Sybil and Josette (at which time Madge and Jem had the 4 eldest Bettanys, the 2 Venables girls and Robin all living with them, and might well have decided that they couldn't cope with a small baby until David and Sybil were a bit older) and Josette and Ailie (upheaval during the War) suggest that there might have been some planning as well. Although Mollie and Dick have their eldest 6 very close together, and have Daphne very soon after Mollie's goitre problem is sorted out.

She probably never expected us to worry about half the things we think of :lol:

I know Joey and Jack were Catholic, but Madge and Jem weren't (Joey converted when she married), and I don't *think* Frank and Phoebe Peters were, either, so I think the whole question of using birth control or not really only affects Joey and Jack. And I'm almost sure that somewhere (not sure just where) we're told Phoebe was advised not to have children because of her severe rheumatic condition, which had also weakened her heart.

I know that when my parents married in 1947 the condom was available, as Mum told me once that they were very thick so cut down on sensation!!! They reverted to the withdrawal method, which makes me wonder how come there are only 2 of us!!! Can't just be because Mum was 34 when she married!

Alison H wrote:

To anyone else that would involve planning, but Joey and Co often talk as if you only have to make the decision and then you get exactly what you want! "I think I'll have twins next time" and things like that! (She never did manage the quads though...) So when she says they should think about having a baby I never consider it much as a plan to change whatever they're doing, but more of some kind of magical invocation - "it shall be so"! She probably only had to decide not to have a baby in the times in between :lol:

Oh, they had Anna to look after the kids :lol:

! I wonder if Joey would have been quite so obsessive about having a big family if she'd had to look after them all herself!

It seems as if Joey wouldn't have used any kind of "planning" methods since she ends up with about a million children, but the way she talks makes it seem as if she did have some sort of way to control when she got pregnant and when she didn't. And after having her first few children, I don't see when she and Jack found the time to make any more... :lol:

Examination of mucus is surprisingly reliable, if not very genteel...)

She must have realised that babies didn't always arrive on demand, because she says that Marie "had to wait" 3 years before her first child arrived (although she went on to have 6 more), and (although I know some people take it to mean financial problems rather than fertility problems) that Simone was starting to worry that she'd never have a second child. & she must have realised that babies didn't always arrive because they'd been demanded, because it's made fairly clear that poor Ted Grantley was an accident!

Jem: Madge, I've got some fantastic news. Jack Maynard fancies Joey. He's really serious about her.
Madge: But, Jem, surely Joey shouldn't get married? Think of the damage that having children could do to her health. You know how ill I was when David was born and I've always been fairly strong physically.
Jem: Yes, but if Joey doesn't get married then we'll be stuck with her living with us for ever. She doesn't even pay her way like Margot does.
Madge: That's a very good point. Maybe we should try leaving her and Jack alone together sometimes and see how it goes ...

Who else (whom we hear about) of the older generation didn't get married, other than Rosalie and the teaching staff? Margia, who was presumably devoted to her musical career. Robin, who became a nun. Gipsy Carson was still "Miss Carson" when Jo Scott mentioned her, but she was only mentioned in passing so maybe it was too complicated to make her Mrs Whatever and have to explain who she was. Winnie Embury's sister was devoted to her nursing career. Sophie Hamel remained single (I hope that doesn't mean that EBD went through life being told that men weren't interested in girls who weren't thin

). & there was Frieda's Tante Luise, who seemed to lead a rather sad life as a maiden aunt living with her sister and brother-in-law: it always seemed very mean that she was the one who had to remain behind with Grossmutter when everyone else went off on the Christmas sleigh ride. Just trying to work out if there's any sort of pattern.

Though again, to go back to Stacie not marrying, possibly advised not to because of her back problems - it remains odd that the single most fragile character of the early part of the series (besides Robin, who doesn't marry) is never advised not to marry or not to have children. Which of course would pull up all kinds of interesting issues - Joey isn't a Catholic yet when she marries Jack, but I believe the Church would have considered their marriage null and void if there was a pre-existing intent not to have children. So, if Joey had been advised not to have children on health grounds, even separate bedrooms wouldn't have been looked on favourably by the Church...

I think they might have been allowed to if they agreed to live as brother and sister.

Grounds for nullity include:

Force or grave fear imposed on a person to obtain their consent (canon 1103)
The consent was based on a condition or reservation (canon 1102)
No intention, when marrying, to contract a lifelong relationship (simulation of consent) (canon 1101§2)
The intention, when marrying, to never have children (canon 1101§2)
A serious lack of the discretion necessary to consent to marriage (canon 1095 n.2)
Psychological incapacity to fulfil the obligations of marriage (canon 1095 n.3)

First, we should not labour under the misapprehension that NFP is always OK. Birth control is never OK if the direct purpose is to prevent birth. NFP is only OK when the couple have serious social, psychological, physical or financial reasons to avoid another pregnancy for the time being or indefinitely. In our zeal to try and wake the world up to the fact that modern NFP methods are as effective as the Pill, we're promoting the idea that NFP in and of itself is unassailably good, the Catholic contraceptive. The truth is NFP can be used with exactly the same contraceptive mentality as birth control (it's not as easy, but it's very possible). Pope Paul VI makes it clear that the first question to ask is "Do we have grave reasons for avoiding a pregnancy at this time?" If the answer is "Yes", then NFP and only NFP is a legitimate way to avoid pregnancy. If the answer is "No", then even NFP may lead you into the same exclusion of God, lack of trust and faith in God and anti-life/anti-child mentality that birth control so often does. Using NFP should be an occasion of sadness for a couple that present difficulties preclude the joy of another child.

I'm sure there were cases of catholic marriage when no children were planned and I think there was even a different form of vow when this happened but there would have to be a good reason and if one person was not well enough to have children that would be considered ok although of course artificial methods of contraception could not be used. As far as I understood it annulling a marriage on the grounds of non intention of having children would only happen if one partner married with that intention without the other being aware of this, or even if one person knowingly could not have children without telling the other.

Alison H wrote:

Sophie Hamel remained single (I hope that doesn't mean that EBD went through life being told that men weren't interested in girls who weren't thin

)

I was going to say that Mollie Maynard, Mollie Bettany and Winifred Embury are all non-thin married women, but I think it's true to say, isn't it, that they are all thin pre-marriage, and only put on weight later in their lives..? Whereas Sophie was a plump schoolgirl. (Any mention of Hilda Jukes' marital status?)

She turned to look at the two teams ranging themselves along the rope. “You’re right, Nell; Ste Thérèse’s are a very hefty team, what with young Hilda—if that girl doesn’t look out, she’s going to rival Winnie Embury sooner or later!—and Joan Baker, to mention only two. Still,” she added cheerfully, “fat doesn’t always tell.”
“It isn’t fat, not even with Hilda,” Miss Wilson said indignantly. “She’s all muscle, that girl. All the same, it’s to be hoped she slims down later on.”

It's Joey making the comments about Hilda, Joan and (her close friend!) Winnie being fat, presumably, when all she needed to say was that the Ste Therese's team looked strong? I haven't read that one for a while. Like it's Joey who makes nasty remarks about Ted Grantley needing to pluck her eyebrows.

:twisted:

Then again, she never depicts a fat person being hurt, or taking offense at such comments, so perhaps for some reason she didn't imagine it might hurt someone...?

Yes - in books, "fat" people are always jolly and don't mind people saying anything about their weight - or else they're mean and bitter and a bully!

I'm with you, Cosimo's Jackal. I've had abuse from complete strangers for being fat - I've even had people winding their car windows down and yelling things at me as I'm walking along a road which they happen to driving down - as well as from school bullies and, no, it's not all jolly good fun.

Three cheers for Enid Blyton's Fatty, who gets to be the hero - but even so I don't think nicknaming your friend "Fatty" is very nice :roll:

Three cheers for Enid Blyton's Fatty, who gets to be the hero - but even so I don't think nicknaming your friend "Fatty" is very nice :roll:

In Reunion, Jo claims quite blithely that they all called Sophie Hamel 'Fatty' when they were at school which is as untrue as the notion that Marie's nickname was 'Cinders' which is mentioned by EBD in Three Go.

don't like that scene in Two Sams where Joey goes on about Sophie's weight at all - whichever Sam is it is clearly a big fan of Sophie's and has been referring to her respectfully as 'Fraulein Hamel' as befits a family friend, and I think it's quite rude for Joey to 'show off' her prior acquaintance to a teenager by telling her Sophie's school nickname and commenting on her appearance. I don't know what EBD thought she was doing, giving her favourite never-does-wrong character this bitchy little moment. It makes Joey look frankly bad.

Agreed. I was once in a supermarket buying Diet Coke
(because I happen to like it) and the woman in the queue behind me looked at it then at me and said "I wouldn't bother, it's not doing any good."

<weight>I don't have a major issue with it really, probably because I was, at times during my youth, actually underweight, and being small, barely 5'. found it difficult to buy clothes. But there again it was open season for people to pass 'funny' comments about my height. Quite often they came from men about 3 or 4 inches taller than I, which really annoyed me. It took me years to get over my height complex. I still get comments from time to time, but thankfully with age the sting has gone out of it

I get pointed comments about being thin, so it can cut both ways, and I agree it's jolly hurtful. (What really annoys me is when people give me running commentaries about what I'm eating, as if I haven't got the hang of it yet...)

One thing I like about EDB is that, in contrast to EB, she never goes in for comments about girls' complexions. ('Negative' characters in EB always seem to have acne, as if it's a reflection of their morality, or something.) Many people (women, unfortunately) take one look at my face and it's Open Season.... :cry:

One thing I like about EDB is that, in contrast to EB, she never goes in for comments about girls' complexions. ('Negative' characters in EB always seem to have acne, as if it's a reflection of their morality, or something.) Many people (women, unfortunately) take one look at my face and it's Open Season.... :cry:

KB wrote:

Agreed. I was once in a supermarket buying Diet Coke
(because I happen to like it) and the woman in the queue behind me looked at it then at me and said "I wouldn't bother, it's not doing any good."

That's unbelievable, in fact it should be a sacking offence.

Yes - it was Two Sams! My mistake, I'd forgotten about Sam's connection. I don't really like the way EBD makes Sophie fat and plain and unmarried and clumsy! Though there was a very good story once in the FOCS magazine which shows Jo purloining Sophie's mishap with the coffee pot to become one of her legends!

In fact, I could imagine it being the subject of a Prefect's Meeting if one of the Middles were overheard calling someone such a horrible name.

As a schoolgirl, Sophie is a cheerful and good-natured person who gets on well with everyone. As an adult, she's kind and generous enough to donate some stock from her family's shop to the CS drama department when all the old costumes are destroyed in a fire. Yet Joey's response on finding out that Samaris knows Sophie is "Is she still as fat as ever?"

. I think that that says a lot more about Joey than it does about Sophie.

Alison H wrote:

. I think that that says a lot more about Joey than it does about Sophie.

I like to think that next time Samaris saw Sophie, Sophie asked "Is Joey as rude and tactless as ever?" and Samaris answered with a resounding yes!

I'm afraid I've stooped as low as 'It could be worse, at least I've got reasonable manners' when someone has told me for the nth. time how ill/dreadful/blemished I look...

When I was in my twenties I suffered some severe skin break outs. I found out years later that it was one of the side effects of endometriosis. Like you, I experienced a lot of embarrassment and hurt from the comments of others

Oh, and as to people being tactless about weight, I heard a story about Clarissa Dickson Wright talking to a Tory peer at a dinner. He asked what she did and she replied that she was a 'Fat Lady'. He was a very kind gentleman and replied: 'Oh no my dear, a little plump, perhaps.' It may be apocryphal but I love that story

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Too academic for marriage?
Is it just me or is it implied that Stacy Benson, D.litt is too academic to marry? I like Stacy but I don't think her life turns out that well, in spite or, or perhaps because of her academic stature. I don't understand why EBD chose to move her to Freudesheim to such a stultifying life. Why could she not remain in Oxford where she would have a productive and satisfying career and where she would be likely to meet someone whose interests she shares? Both her parents were highly academic and they managed to stumble across each other, so why wasn't Stacy allowed the same? There isn't really anyone on the Platz in her league intellectually, so she must surely miss the intellectual frisson of Oxford. Do people feel that EBD's obvious criticism of the Bensons extends to a disapproval of a career woman to marry and bear children?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I agree with everything you've said. I think it's strongly implied she won't marry, though, as you say, no reason at all why not, given her situation in Oxford and the example of her own mother. Though presumably that's what EBD has in mind - 'lady doctors' or 'lady academics' aren't good mothers, as far as she's concerned, and she probably thinks it's 'for the best' Stacie shouldn't marry and have children. Presumably it also throws some light on why everyone appears to forget Daisy is an award-winning, fully-trained medic after she marries and has children, or why Julie's legal career is jettisoned without a further thought (apparnetly) when she marries. You are one thing or the other. I don't think Stacie was ever going to stay on at Freudesheim, though, was she? I thought I remembered that she was only there temporarily while preparing a course of lectures and recovering? I like to imagine that the second she was better, she shot off back to north Oxford and resumed her life there! I like to imagine her being gently acid in some common room about the lack of intellectual life on the Platz...

Author:	Mel [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I get the impression that she was more or less permanent at the Platz due to Jack's orders health-wise, though why beyond a brief holiday escapes me. It must have been appalling - where could she find books for research? I think we are expected to think it must be marvellous for her staying with Joey (eek!) and that Stacie is now settled and happy in case we were worried about her 'all on her lones' in Oxford.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I was hoping she was only obeying Jack for the original timescheme! Quote: Jack Maynard has out his foot down firmly on any more of it for the next three or four months. Coming over here from Freudesheim will be a different matter. Three days a week won’t be too much for her. (I love the way that teaching middles who play tricks on you at the CS is somehow considered appropriately un-exhausting for someone recuperating! And what on earth has Jack to do with it, anyway? Surely she can't have come to the San from England to be checked out by him - wouldn't she have had a doctor in England? Or did she come on a social visit to Freudesheim and suddenly find herself stuck there when Jack 'put his foot down'?)

Author:	ClaireK [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Oh dear - am now imagining Jack's foot firmly planted in the small of Stacie's back, pinning her to the floor... Would much rather she was allowed to go to Oxford and strike up a friendship with CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein et al.

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Too academic for marriage? http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9017

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I always assumed Stacie and a lot of her generation didn't marry because there weren't a lot men to choose from because of WWII. I couldn't see Stacie wanting to marry just anyone and give up her career for them which is highly likely she would have to do. And I always thought it was only for that term, Jack put his foot down. He was one of her original doctors for her back accident so could see why Stacie would listen to him. She very much seemed to come and go as she pleased after that term and had her own wing, so Jack obviously realised Stacie needed her space and independence.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Fiona Mc wrote: And I always thought it was only for that term, Jack put his foot down. He was one of her original doctors for her back accident so could see why Stacie would listen to him. She very much seemed to come and go as she pleased after that term and had her own wing, so Jack obviously realised Stacie needed her space and independence Fiona Mc wrote: . I only hope you're right about its being a temporary arrangement. The Maynards are [i]kind[/i] I grant you, and I'm sure as unobtrusive as possible, but it still smacks of a benign incarceration.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
MJKB wrote: I only hope you're right about its being a temporary arrangement. The Maynards are kind I grant you, and I'm sure as unobtrusive as possible, but it still smacks of a benign incarceration. I just read slightly further along, and Mel is right. Stacie seems to be living at Freudesheim on a longer-term basis -- Quote: The older girls all knew her of course. She had been occupying a wing of Freudesheim for the past year or so and attended school functions when she could. -- which depresses me! But does explain why Jack seems still to be her doctor. On the other hand, it's more than ever impossible to figure out how EBD imagined a noted classicist functioning for a year and a half with no access to a research library! Even if, as we're told 'Oxford doesn't suit her' (air too relaxing, like Joey in the New Forest, one presumes?), there must have been places with decent air and altitude also with libraries within striking distance, closer to one of the big Swiss universities. The other thing that makes me giggle is when Joey warns her not to overdo it at school by saying “You aren’t exactly a Sandow, you know'.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
It made no sense at all for the brilliant Dr Benson to've come to live in what was effectively a granny flat at Freudesheim, without access to a university library. Doesn't Zurich have one of the best universities in Europe? She'd've been better nearer there. & Jack's word is law - in Reunion, Mollie (and surely Jack shouldn't have been treating his sister anyway) has apparently been suffering from some sort of glandular problems for years but it's only when she sees Jack that they're sorted out (and she then miraculously becomes thin - I need a brother like Jack!). In Problem, Gottfried is supposed to be getting a job at the San, but it never happens, and then in Fete Elisaveta talks about moving to the Platz but never does. Carla is supposed to be coming to work for Joey but it never seems to happen, and Maria does come to work for Joey and teach part-time at the school but we only see her once or twice before she disappears to get married. Then Stacie, probably the last Old Girl who'd've been looking to move to the Platz, does just that . I think we're meant to see Stacie as a bluestocking and traditionally people thought that men weren't interested in bluestockings. And Margia doesn't marry either, and I get the impression that Nina won't, so maybe EBD just thought that someone obsessive about their work wouldn't be interested in marriage anyway. But, as MJKB said, it didn't stop Stacie's parents from getting together. She must have been bored stiff listening to Hilary, Biddy et al swapping tales about potty training and toddler tantrums. I really would love to know what EBD had in mind for Mary-Lou. I'm not that keen on New Beginnings generally, but I like the way that Mary-Lou marries a fellow archaeologist, with no CS connections, and carries on with her work.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Alison H wrote: I think we're meant to see Stacie as a bluestocking and traditionally people thought that men weren't interested in bluestockings. And Margia doesn't marry either, and I get the impression that Nina won't, so maybe EBD just thought that someone obsessive about their work wouldn't be interested in marriage anyway. But, as MJKB said, it didn't stop Stacie's parents from getting together. She must have been bored stiff listening to Hilary, Biddy et al swapping tales about potty training and toddler tantrums. What had EBD against poor Stacy? Not only is she to be deprived of husband/companion and possibly a child, but she's also barred from intellectual interaction with her universtity colleagues and, to really stick the knife in she's denied access to the proper channels for her beloved research. What does she get instead? Well, she gets on tap medical advice from the omnicient Jack, riotous 'English' tea parties hosted by Joey and the opportunity to sort out 'naughty' middles for the school authorities. And we're supposed to believe that she's completely fuflilled.

Author:	Finn [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
That said, academia can be pretty stressful. I wonder if she mightn't have wanted a year out in a relatively relaxing, and certainly totally different, environment. Bit of time for re-evaluation of goals and so forth? Oxford/Cambridge can be pretty stifling in their own way, after all! That said, I'd like to have seen Stacie safely back off to her college (which was she at, anyone know?) and out of the wretched Freudesheim environment! She has to be one of my favourite characters

Author:	Lottie [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Finn wrote: which was she at, anyone know? I don't think it's ever said, but I've always imagined her at The Society of Home Students, since she presumably inherited her parents' house in North Oxford and had Bessie to look after her. By the Swiss years it had become St. Anne's College.

Author:	Kathy_S [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I think that if I were Stacie, I'd have been very happy to have a flat at Freudesheim. Stacie's seems to be set off well enough from the main part of the house to allow her either to be fed/cosseted when poorly or to have her privacy. I personally got quite a lot of academic writing done while snowed into the wheelchair accessible part of my sister's house for several months, though of course I could bring a good amount of reference material with me. A chalet with doctors on call and an Anna sounds even better, though preferably with no teaching responsibilities. I imagine Stacie owned quite a library -- her own plus her father's -- and would have probably have had no problem bringing along a relevant trunk or two. Once the crisis was over, the flat seemed to serve more as a stable and friendly refuge where Stacie could take time away from Oxford during holidays or between lecture tours, rather than a permanent residence.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Yes, Freudesheim would be absolutely fine if it was a temporary arrangement, but there is some suggestion that EBD meant it to become a permanent situation, and that, I believe, would be detrimental for Stacy's intellectual, emotional and psychological well being.

Author:	Mia [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Fiona Mc wrote: I always assumed Stacie and a lot of her generation didn't marry because there weren't a lot men to choose from because of WWII. That was the First World War... The population remained fairly stable after WWII although obviously a lot of men were killed.

Author:	lindsabeth [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I can see why it might be a bit sad for Stacie to end up permanently at Freudesheim if what she really wants is to go back to the academic world, but what's wrong with her not getting married? Some people are just not the marrying kind, and maybe Stacie was happier on her own I don't feel sorry for her simply because she doesn't get married.

Author:	KB [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I have to admit that I wondered if Stacie had been advised that having children would be very bad for her. After all, she still has weakness in her back in Reunion, so with the knowledge they had then, they may have advised her against it. Although caesareans were used them, nothing I've read suggests that they were anything like as common as they are now and would have been an emergency-only situation, rather than something they could plan for. Not that this would necessarily prevent her from marrying (after all, Phoebe adopts), but it might be part of the reason. Either that or she simply couldn't bear the thought of having to listen to all the advise that Joey would doubtless offer...

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
lindsabeth wrote: I can see why it might be a bit sad for Stacie to end up permanently at Freudesheim if what she really wants is to go back to the academic world, but what's wrong with her not getting married? Some people are just not the marrying kind, and maybe Stacie was happier on her own Because it's very much second-best for EBD, who's pretty obsessive about marrying everyone, unless you are (a) a longtime CS fixture like the main phalanx of mistresses and Rosalie Dene or (b) someone utterly dedicated to a career such as music at the 'genius' level - Margia, Nina - which EBD sees as incompatible with family life. But there's no such 'reason' why Stacie shouldnt have been married off by EBD to some don, and, especially after her academic career seems to go on the back burner (if she's spent a full year at Freudesheim by the time she starts teaching at the CS, does that mean she doesn't actually have a Fellowship at an Oxford college, or is on sabbatical? or maybe is only at Freudesheim in the vac?) it can't be that she's too 'dedicated' to her work to consider marriage, so her continued singleness looks like a deliberate EBD decision.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
She seems to be a high achiever before then, though. One of the girls (forget who, but she says that her dad's really into Greek stuff and'd talked a lot about "E Benson"'s translations) was very impressed to find out that Stacie was a CS Old Girl. I'd think EBD put her in the "married to the job" category.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Alison H wrote: She seems to be a high achiever before then, though. One of the girls (forget who, but she says that her dad's really into Greek stuff and'd talked a lot about "E Benson"'s translations) was very impressed to find out that Stacie was a CS Old Girl. I'd think EBD put her in the "married to the job" category. Alison H wrote: . That's what I have a problem with, not the fact that she doesn't marry. If she is "married to the job" why on earth would she decide to move to Freudesheim on anything other than a temporary basis.

Author:	Cel [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I don't know why living at Freudesheim for a while should evoke such sympathy. Maybe Stacie found it perfectly pleasant to spend a year or so in a beautiful alpine setting with plenty of time and space to work, the opportunity to do a bit of teaching, and old friends nearby when she wanted them. And as for 'intellectual stimulation', there were probably at least one or two people at the world-renowned medical centre five minutes away that she could deign to spend an evening in conversation with. Sounds all right to me...

Author:	KB [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Alison H wrote: She seems to be a high achiever before then, though. One of the girls (forget who, but she says that her dad's really into Greek stuff and'd talked a lot about "E Benson"'s translations) was very impressed to find out that Stacie was a CS Old Girl. I'd think EBD put her in the "married to the job" category. It was Eilunedd Vaughn who said that: Quote: “Who was she?” Eilunedd demanded. “I’ve never heard of her.” “Good heavens! Not heard of Stacie Benson!” Nita exclaimed. “Why, she’s the E. Benson who’s been doing translations of some Greek stuff—don’t ask me what, for I don’t remember!—that have made a tremendous stir in the world. I’ve heard Dad talking about them, and he said they were wizard!” Eilunedd opened her eyes. “Was that a pupil here once?” she cried. “I’ve heard my father on the subject, and he said they were the most scholarly works of the kind he’s ever seen. But I thought it was a man did them. You don’t mean to say it was just a girl?” “Well, she’s not exactly a girl now,” Peggy said, tugging at a curl that had come loose from her slide. “She must be quite thirty. But she used to be at this school.”

Author:	ClaireK [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Is Mr VAughan a noted scholar thenm that his words will be taken with such imporatnce? Or is his view valid simply bcos of his sex?

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I assume we're meant to think that Mr Vaughan is into Greek translations. Eilunedd's grammar leaves a lot to be desired , and there are better ways of putting things than "just a girl"!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
ClaireK wrote: Is Mr Vaughan a noted scholar thenm that his words will be taken with such imporatnce? Or is his view valid simply bcos of his sex? It's a very telling little exchange - it's not just Mr Vaughan, but also Nita's father who is so knowledgeable - both girls quote their fathers on the subject as though they were the sacred mouthpieces of all things Classics! Because God forbid their mothers might have thoughts on whether Stacie's translations are any good or not... Or that a CS girl might think her father hadn't a clue about Thucydides translations! I think the reason Stacie getting landed at Freudesheim annoys me so much is the way it seems to sideline her career as incidental. EBD has set her up as a noted Oxford classicist with a considerable public reputations in a male-dominated field - and good for EBD, especially in view of preconceptions like Tom Gay's that girls schools are crap at classics - but then seems to set that at nothing by removing Stacie to a Gornetz Platz granny flat as if her Oxford fellowship doesn't matter, or can be sidelined at will. Maybe also that it seems to suggest that any ties in what sounds like an unusually successful post-school life are less important than a link to someone she'd known at a school where something awful happened to her decades earlier.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: ClaireK wrote: Is Mr Vaughan a noted scholar thenm that his words will be taken with such imporatnce? Or is his view valid simply bcos of his sex? It's a very telling little exchange - it's not just Mr Vaughan, but also Nita's father who is so knowledgeable - both girls quote their fathers on the subject as though they were the sacred mouthpieces of all things Classics! Because God forbid their mothers might have thoughts on whether Stacie's translations are any good or not... Or that a CS girl might think her father hadn't a clue about Thucydides translations! Actually I could well believe Mr Eltringham being into Greek translations. From what I saw of him in Seven Scamps, that actually seems like something he would be into. Cesca Atherton Eltringham (Nita's mother) would be a little bit of a stretch for my imagination. She didn't come accross as being particularly academic, and became a KG teacher, whereas her sister Rosamund Atherton Willoughby (Blosson's mother) went to Somerville so if she had read them I could believe it more. In fact she would have been at Oxford around the same time or slightly earlier than Stacie

Author:	ClaireK [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Interesting points. However, if one had studied the classics - would you really then keep up with all the developments, new translations etc? Or would you be more likely to have your original books? IMO very few people outwith the field would really be aware of new developments and new authorities in the slightly esoteric realm of ancient Greek - unlike someone who reads a newspaper or listens to the radio being aware of the brilliant pianists Margia and Nina. By example, my own transaltions of Homer are from my university days and are those done by EV Rieul and my Virgil is the translation by Cecil Day Lewis - and I've never gone out and bought other versions. It just seems rather unlikely that a classical scholar like Stacie would be well-known to all but a very few.

Author:	jayj [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
ClaireK wrote: However, if one had studied the classics - would you really then keep up with all the developments, new translations etc? If her translations were that important, they'd've been reviewed in the Times Literary Supplement, which would mean a lot more people might would about them than actually read them. If you had studied classics and wanted to keep up with what was going on in the academic world, I think the TLS is where you'd turn (at least, nowadays it is). So maybe Nita and Eilunedd's fathers are just parroting a review that they've read in the TLS?

Author:	ClaireK [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
good point! Of course, the father of a Chalet Girl would be up on all those things, even if by osmosis... There is an example of a famous academic who was also married - Queenie Leavis, married to Frank and a very prominent Dickens scholar. She was born in at the turn of the century, so a little older than Stacie.. But if EBD read the TLS she would be aware of her. It would have been nice if Stacie could have been allowed the ultimate "reward" of marriage and children. Maybe to a PhD - not a REAL doctor, but a doctor nevertheless! Stacie is a great example of a girl who was able to live her own life and to be higly successful, without a man. WOuld she have had to give up her studies if she was married to confomr to EBDs ideas, I wonder?

Author:	Caty [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Do you know, I always thought that it was very logical that Stacie was never married off. In 1950s women were still expected to give up work to keep house. Stacie was a brilliant scholar and presumably it occupied her whole life and if it came to a choice between keeping home and continuing her work, she'd always have chosen the work. I don't think EBD was punishing her, rather trying to write realistically. As for her living at Freudesheim, my view of that was that she lived there but would be off at times to do lecture series or research for a few months at a time and then would come back. In some ways that was probably the closest thing to having a family that she could have without compromising her own work.

Author:	ClaireK [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: I do, however, get slightly defensive of Stacie's mother - apart from misdiagnosing her own illness (which, outside the world of the CS, is just a fact of life as a doctor), all we specifically hear EBD thinks she's done wrong is to give her daughter a horrendous name and to have 'childrearing theories'. Well, personally, I dislike the names Josephine, Madge and Frieda every bit as much as I do Eustacia - that's not to denigrate the names, just to say that whether or not one likes a name is purely down to personal taste! And everyone who has a child has childrearing theories, whether or not they think of them as such - Jem's ideas about training babies to instant obedience are theories, as are Joey's decision to have the children call her and Jack 'Mamma' and 'Papa' and to have them confess their sins to her at bedtome! Yes, Eustacia is a pain when she arrives at the CS, which suggests in EBD's terms, a 'bad' parental training - but someone who turns out to be far more obnoxious in hte long run, Jack Lambert, never has her bullying blamed on bad parenting...? Well said! I cold never understand how EBD thought that Len was "a pretty name" - which i'm sure someone says at one point. I think it is horrid and sounds like a man - and an old man at that. Maybe i am thinking of Len Fairclough of Corrie?? of course names are highly personal choices - and Eustacia, while unusual, is actually rather a nice name and with a lovely meaning. I can't recall EBD ever being scathing about any Austrian names, by contrast? To my eyes, Freida looks very pretty when writtne down- much nicer than Freda (who to me will always be the Blue Peter tortoise) but I think they are pronounced similarly? And I was so disappointed to learn Gisela is not pronounced like Giselle. Can you hear the long ago sounds of my childish assumptions coming crashing to the ground?

Author:	Mel [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
It's as though EBD didn't want her characters to 'escape' and lead their own lives, so scooped them up and flung them on the Platz (or Switzerland) such as Frieda, Winnie, Hilary, Biddy, Doris, Grizel, Stacie, Maria and Beth (who got married so that's all right) and Gisela and Carla (who did escape). Are there others?

Author:	cestina [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
Cel wrote: I don't know why living at Freudesheim for a while should evoke such sympathy. Maybe Stacie found it perfectly pleasant to spend a year or so in a beautiful alpine setting with plenty of time and space to work, the opportunity to do a bit of teaching, and old friends nearby when she wanted them. And as for 'intellectual stimulation', there were probably at least one or two people at the world-renowned medical centre five minutes away that she could deign to spend an evening in conversation with. Sounds all right to me... Actually I can't think of anything better.....

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Too academic for marriage?
I quite like the idea of Stacie being deep in conversation with some handsome doctor - weren't doctors expected to learn some Latin and Greek to help them understand medical terms, or have I made that up - and either Joey or one of the CS staff coming along and drivelling on about the plans for school sports day/the sale/the pantomime, and the handsome doctor raising his eyebrows and saying "Come on, Dr Benson, let's go and find somewhere where we can have an intelligent conversation" .