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#1: Theodora Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:38 pm
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I am reading Theodora for only the second time - the first time was three years ago - and am shaking my head, just as I was last time. Rosalie takes the school post to Jo's and sits there reading it out, even before the Headmistress has seen it, and between them Jo and Rosalie decide that "yes, Theodora may come to the school"; they even decide to give her a nickname. Then, and only then, do they phone and ask Hilda to come over so they can show her the letter and tell her what they have decided. Is it me? What was EBD thinking? Shocked

Is that how things happened in her school? Shocked

Although something a little similar did once happen at an independent school I was working in. Having been made redundant a few years ago, I was working as a supply teacher and was covering a six month maternity leave, which extended to nine months when the teacher decided not to return. I didn't apply myself as that particular head wanted not just sweat, but blood also, from his staff. Not long afterwards, I was photocopying in the office when I heard the two secretaries opening the mail, reading out loud the applicants' letters and making derogatory remarks about things contained therein. I was horrified and was very glad I hadn't applied.

#2: Author: linda, Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:49 pm
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It's ages since I read Theodora, and I'd forgotten about the beginning of it. I do agree it is really odd - and SO unprofessional. Having spent eleven years as a school secretary when my children were small, I would never have dreamed of discussing confidential school issues with anyone outside, however close friends we were.

I agree with you Mary, what was EBD thinking - and - I can't imagine Rosalie being so unprofessional!!! Rolling Eyes

#3: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:53 pm
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I can, however, imagine Hilda's reaction when they deign to tell her...

#4: Author: Elder in Ontario, Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:58 pm
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I'd also forgotten about that episode at the beginning of 'Theodora' - nor, at this stage do I remember what Hilda *did* say when she was presented with this 'fait accompli', though I do remember Jo's first meeting with 'Ted' - and didn't she tell Len something about the girl before term started, too? Tells you how long it is since I read the book, doesn't it? But yes, I do agree about being unprofessional.....

#5: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:05 pm
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What really annoys me is the casual way Jo decides to change the girl's name. What right does she have to decide what Theodora should be called? To suggest to the girl when she arrives that she might like to shorten her name and start afresh would be one thing, but to tell her that's what they've decided ...! Even if I hated my name (and I did, as a child!), I would never have allowed anyone else to decide it was no longer good enough for me! Mad

#6: Author: Sugar, Location: second star to the right!

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:37 pm
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Lesley wrote:

I can, however, imagine Hilda's reaction when they deign to tell her...

sends Lesley's bunny lots of lovely bunny food and looks hopeful. Very Happy

#7: Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:46 pm
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But Hilda accepts it all quite amicably, which is why I asked what EBD was thinking of. She even allows Joey to be the first to welcome the girl to the school Grr! Shocked

#8: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:16 pm
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I'm sure Joey and Rosalie meant their remarks in a nice way, but I agree that it was totally out of order, especially discussing it when Hilda hadn't even seen the letter yet! Although didn't Joey also get a letter from Ted's cousin Miss Carthew - who really should have written to Hilda or Nell( IIRC she would have known them both) or to Madge, rather than to Joey.

And then there's that conversation later on - I forget if it's Rosalie or someone else whom Joey's talking to (and can't check as it was cut out of the pb Evil or Very Mad

) - in which they start going on about how Ted could do with plucking her eyebrows!

It happens quite a lot, though. The amount of school business and San business (eg Miss Bubb's medical problems) that gets broadcast to all and sundry is amazing Laughing

. I know that it was EBD's way of telling us about it, but couldn't it have been discussed by 2 mistresses/doctors as appropriate, rather than by Joey?

#9: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:35 pm
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I never minded Joey shortening's Ted's name as she did it for a good reason. The whole point is for Ted to have a fresh start with a new name and a new school. There is something liberating in that and she did give the choice to to Ted asking her if that was okay.

In regards to Rosalie discussing the letter with Joey, I had always read it as Rosalie was so stunned by a parent badmouthing their daughter as much as Mrs Grantley did Ted (as she was worst than Professor Richardson at his worse and he was Hi I'm sending my daughter to you as punishment) that she abviously spoke without thinking and Joey gave her advice on how to deal with it. She was an old friend of both Hilda and Rosalie and rightly or wrongly Hilda had asked her for advice and for her to talk to quite a number of girls over the years so it would seem a little strange if she started getting annoyed by Joey's interferance/suggestions/actions now. And from Joey's point of view, it would seem unfair if someone had asked/accepted that behaviour for years to suddenly turn around and start getting annoyed and angry about it now.

#10: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:49 pm
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But that's the whole point, isn't it? Quite what EBD, a teacher and a headteacher herself was thinking by showing that so many of the decisions about the school couldn't be made without consulting someone who had no official standing whatsoever. Yes, she was the sister of the founder of the school, but that shouldn't have made any difference. It's not a case of Joey-bashing - it's not her fault EBD wrote her in this situation - and her advice was very good and showed Joey's empathy and caring nature - but EBD should have done it in a better way.

As to Miss Carthew writing to Joey - why? Joey would have been 15 years old at the time Miss Carthew was last at the school. At least she would have known and worked with both Miss Annersley and Miss Wilson, as well as Lady Russell.

It just seems such a pity that, in EBD's wish for Joey to be included in everything, she had to show her professional staff in such poor light.

Last edited by Lesley on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

#11: Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:51 pm
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Fiona Mc wrote:

She was an old friend of both Hilda and Rosalie and rightly or wrongly Hilda had asked her for advice and for her to talk to quite a number of girls over the years so it would seem a little strange if she started getting annoyed by Joey's interferance/suggestions/actions now. .

I would agree entirely, Fiona, over most situations, but in my pb edition, Hilda didn't even know about this, hadn't seen the letter, and that is completely unprofessional. Usually she has asked Joey and Rosalie about something she is puzzled over after she has read a letter or whatever. But she can't ask for help if she hasn't seen the letter. To tell a Head what you think she should do when she knows nothing at all about it stuns me.

ETA as have just seen Lesley's post and I agree with her. EBD does indeed show Hilda and the staff in a very poor light in her endeavour to show Jo as emapthic etc. The Headmistress of a school would never behave like this. She wouldn't even listen to her secretary as much as Hilda listens to Rosalie.

#12: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:55 pm
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I think it all depends on how you look at things. Comparing the books to the modern day - completely unacceptible. I can't say how adults at the time the books were written would have thought of it. However, as a kids story book, where things weren't necesarally in this universe when it came to what was 'acceptible' and what wasn't it wasn't ever worth mentioning from my point of view.

I guess that for EBD it was simply a mix of a plot device (though I guess I'd be annoyed if I was someone who had sent a pupil to her school if that happened! - and even at that, she'd long since shut up shop that way, so probably wasn't even thinking properly about what the staff would naturally talk to outsiders about the girls.) and a way to bring Joey and her usual 'girl fixing' methods into play. It was just the way that the school worked. Chalet land accepts Rosalie talking to Joey about any and every private detail of the girls history that she wants - Joey is the 'outside of school confidante' of the books, and Hilda doesn't shy from taking issues to her - nor do any of the other pupils - ML for starters.

In the modern day, not allowed, but for childrens novels, where fantacy plays a big part (ever seen any of the Famous Five come to life anyone?) this kind of make believe is just part and parcle of the genre - and my usual way of dealing with things in my reading for fun is to accept them as they come, and not worry too much about anythign which seems odd in RL.

#13: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:05 pm
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But the CS was written by a teacher - someone that makes a real effort to show a school not just from the point of view of the pupils but from the staff as well. Of course it is fantasy, as all fiction is fantasy, but it was grounded in fact - that EBD did know what she was talking about when it came to school - even though, in real life, her school was never as successful. Saying that bringing Joey in like that was a plot device doesn't excuse it - she should, had she wanted Joey in it, have thought of a far more logical way. Personally I would have had Miss Carthew writing to Madge and her passing on the letter to Hilda. Then, while she and Nell are discussing it Joey can come visiting and the letter from Ted's mother is brought up. That would jar far less than that the School Secretary goes across to her friend next door to discuss a letter before her boss has even seen it.

#14: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:24 pm
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Quote:

In that case, I’d advise Hilda to give the poor kid a chance with us.

Quote:

“If Hilda asks me, I shall advise her to give the girl a trial.

Both quotes are from Joey; she's not saying what Hilda will do, but what she'd advise her to do.

Quote:

Theodora was to be welcomed at the Chalet School and once she was there she was to be told that the school proposed—unless she objected strongly to the idea—that henceforth she was to be “Ted” and, as Ted Grantley, make a completely fresh beginning in her school life.

I think this was fair enough - Ted does have a choice but it's about the fresh start. Ted's been written off and the CS is giving her a chance.

When Joey meets Ted.

Quote:

Mrs. Maynard laughed at her. “Theodora?” She turned to the stunned owner of the name, and asked plaintively, “Must we?”
“Must you what?” Theodora gasped.
“Make it the whole thing? No one on this earth ought to have to answer to four syllables every day of her life! Won’t one do you? Mayn’t we make it ‘Ted’?” Then, as Theodora stood staring dumbly at her, she added, while her eyes danced, “Of course, if you’ve any special objection to that, we could always make it ‘Theo’.” She sat down, pulling Theodora to a seat by her side on the broad windowsill. “You’ll have to make up your mind to it, my lamb! ‘Ted’ or ‘Theo” but not ‘Theodora’! All right, Len; you may leave her and come back for her in ten minutes.”
Len nodded and skipped off, and Joey, still holding one of the thin hands, continued, “Come along! Make up your mind which it’s to be, for call any girl ‘Theodora’ whenever I speak to her, I will not! And I warn you, the school sees a lot of me in one way or another—as a general rule, that is. Which is it to be?” Then, as Ted still remained dumb, she abandoned her whirlwind tactics, and said gently, “Don’t you understand? You’ve come here to make a new start. We’re washing all the past out. It’s done and gone. We can’t do anything about that. But you can do quite a lot with this fresh chance. As a beginning, we thought you’d like to forget all about Theodora and all the horrible trouble she has been in and see if Ted—or Theo, if you prefer it—couldn’t make us glad she had come. Don’t you like the idea?”
Theodora came to her senses at last. “Do you mean,” she said slowly, “that it doesn’t matter to you that I’ve been chucked out of three other schools already?”
Joey shook her black head with its deep fringe and great flat whorls of plaits over each ear. “Not unless you force it on our notice. It depends on you. We have a theory in this school that expulsion is a very bad thing, and only to be used for real wickedness—like stealing or continual lying or things like that; and only then if we’ve tried everything else and it’s all failed. What’s more, we consider it wrong to hark back. Once a thing’s paid for, it’s paid for. Whatever you may have done in the past has been paid for. It’s no affair of ours, and we aren’t interested in it. What we are interested in is what you do here. You’ve a chance to make good—turn into a different person. What about it—Ted?”
“Theodora” vanished into thin air at the last word, and, with a sudden smile that wiped all the sullenness from her face and explained to Joey her mother’s statement that the girl was attractive to her own kind, “Ted” replied, “I’ll be Ted! And—and”—she paused and then went on with a rush—“and I’ll try to make good. It’s the first really decent chance I’ve had since they fired me from the Beehive when I was just a kid of nine. If I’m really to have it, I’ll take it—and that’s a promise.”

She does give her some say - it's no just 'you're Ted and you'll like it' although she is quite insistant.

I agree that writing to Joey is a clumsy plot devise but I think that reflects badly on EBD, not Jo.

#15: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:31 am
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Madge was the first one guilty of this, really - she told Joey that Juliet had been abandoned by her parents (instead of giving her the vague explanation she gave Miss Maynard) because she and Dick had never kept secrets from Joey, regardless of the fact that it was someone else's private business which affected her in her professional capacity as head rather than a piece of personal family news.

In RL there's no way (hopefully!) that doctors would discuss patients' medical details with their spouses, that their spouses would pass it on to all and sundry, or that private information about a school pupil would be passed on to people who didn't work at the school or to other pupils ... it's clumsy, but it's just the way EBD does things! I wish she hadn't, though - given that it's usually either Joey or Mary-Lou involved, it makes the adult Joey and the Senior/Head Girl Mary-Lou seem rather annoying (to me anyway!), whereas they were both great when they were younger!

#16: Author: Shander, Location: the wilds of PEI

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:45 am
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I admit the name change thing annoys me a bit. I've always been called by my full name and it has four syllables. I'd be rather annoyed at someone I'd just met shortening like that, although I understand the thought behind the idea.
And why did it have to be Ted or Theo? Why not Dora, or Teddy?

#17: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:31 am
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It is odd.

On one hand, I find EBD does a good job of showing the staff's point of view - the mistresses discussing a problem girl, relaxing over coffee in the staff room, and so on - that doesn't show up in many books in this genre.

On the other hand, there are these weird bits of completely unprofessional behaviour, that may make sense from the point of view of exposition but not from a professional or personal sense. There is Joey's random blurting out of medical information about girls' parents that isn't known by the girls themselves - both to the girls, and to other students. There's this case in Theodora. Even worse is the beginning of Challenge, where Miss Annersley is announcing her semester sabbatical and discussing who should take her place (with critique of the mistresses) with the *Triplets* - who are students of said mistresses.

There's also a scene in Three Go where Joey is discussing Margot's academic shortcomings with ten year old Mary-Lou (the laziness, the cleverness, the temper, the fact that Margot might be left behind the following term). She tells her not to say anything to Margot, but still!!!

I don't think it would be unusual for Rosalie to read the mail first - that would be part of her job, opening and reading correspondence, handling the parts she could (like request for a prospectus), passing personal mail to Miss Annersley, sorting applications into standard and problematic ones, and so on. I could even see her being so surprised by Mrs Grantley's approach that she may have read bits out to Joey as she did so, legitimately assuming that as Joey gets most of the school news that the Head wouldn't object. But the decision part is totally unprofessional, and the name thing bothered me. I am picky about what nicknames are applied to me, and, for example, will not answer to Jenny.

#18: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:11 pm
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Lesley wrote:

But the CS was written by a teacher - someone that makes a real effort to show a school not just from the point of view of the pupils but from the staff as well. Of course it is fantasy, as all fiction is fantasy, but it was grounded in fact - that EBD did know what she was talking about when it came to school - even though, in real life, her school was never as successful.

But then EBD wasn't always the best of teachers or headmistresses - she used to let her (completely unqualified) mother take classes while she was in the throes of writing her books, which led to friction with some of the parents (not surprisingly). When she was a private governess she was often late turning up, on one occasion her two pupils gave up and went home as they were bored of waiting so long for her! According to Behind the Chalet School, her lateness continued when she was running The Margaret Roper School and she also failed to turn up completely to her classes on occasion.

Helen McClelland also thinks it likely that Elinor (who was not the most organised or methodical of people) became bored with the day-to-day routine of a headmistress's life and that this contributed to the short livedness of her real life School. (see pages 232-233 Behind the Chalet School)

Apparently Elinor also lacked discretion and while working as a teacher referred to one of her Headmistresses as "the fat white slug" - can't see Miss A letting any of her staff get away with that Wink

#19: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:26 pm
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Yes, can see what you mean - so the fact that she showed such unprofessional behavour from her fictional staff was just continuing her own habits! Still not excusable but more understandable. Can't understand where the notion that EBD was not an organised or methodical person comes from though! Wink

#20: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:34 pm
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Good points, but the money that Madge used to start the school belonged to all three of the Bettanys, therefore Jo is a major shareholder, has free places for her daughters and technically is one of Miss Annersley's employers is she not? The way I understand it, it's fairly well established throughout the Swiss part of the series that the staff go to her as she is Madge's representative. This makes it more acceptable to me anyway.

In that case I would have to say J does have some entitlement to advise Miss A, though personally I wouldn't have gone over the head of my immediate boss as Rosalie does!

#21: Author: ibarhis, Location: Dunstable

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:21 pm
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Funnily enough I reread Theodora recently - iirc it says something like 'Rosalie picked up the post and took it across to open while she had coffee with Joey'... not a direct quote but how I remember it.

I suppose I take the attitude that you have to accept the books as they are - not uncritically exactly but for what they are, and EBD has for good or ill set up a situation where people do tell Jo things.

#22: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:59 pm
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Dawn wrote:

I can quite understand this causing friction with the parents, but until very recently indeed, schools, and particularly private schools, often employed unqualified teachers. It is only within the last 30 years or so that all teachers had to be qualified, and only within the last 20 that teaching became a graduate profession. So it wasn't quite as horrendous as it sounds!

#23: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:46 pm
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Mrs Redboots wrote:

Dawn wrote:

I think EBD's attitude - and her experience of the world of teaching - is quite clear when you think that Madge was totally unqualified and inexperienced when she set out to open a school. She went to Austria to do so because it would be cheaper, not because she wouldn't be able to get the pupils in the Britain. Mdlle Lepattre had worked as a governess but there's nothing to suggest she was a qualified teacher. In Head Girl's Difficulties, Cesca leaves school and joins the Kindergarten to learn how to be a teacher, but there would have been no formal qualifications associated with that. Most people learned on the job.

And even when formal courses were introduced, initially they were only one- or two-year certificate or diploma courses. I can remember in the 70s friends with 2-year course qualifiations having to go back to college to do an upgrade year - regardless of how many years experience they had - or give up teaching.

So given the era, I don't think EBD's having her mother act as substitute teacher would have been that outrageous. I expect she got lots of practice while EBD was writing!

#24: Author: Sugar, Location: second star to the right!

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:03 pm
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Mrs Redboots wrote:

Dawn wrote:

until very recently indeed, schools, and particularly private schools, often employed unqualified teachers. It is only within the last 30 years or so that all teachers had to be qualified, and only within the last 20 that teaching became a graduate profession.

Actually all teachers DON'T have to qualified. I know of at least 2 "state" schools ho employ unqualified teachers in teaching roles and it is not due to lack of qualified applicants either. I was interviewed for a teaching post whilst unqualified and not training to be a teacher. There are also routes into teaching now that don't require graduates.

#25: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:07 pm
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And now that teaching's become a graduate profession there are moves to have teaching assistants taking classes. It all seems rather circular! What is the exact deal on that? Is it still that TAs aren't meant to teach a class on their own? I know there were rumblings.

#26: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:09 pm
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Regardless of whether teachers were required to have qualifications or not, parents of pupils at the Margaret Roper School did still express dissatisfaction at having Nelly Dyer teach their pupils, because she was unqualified.

#27: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:24 pm
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I think Mary's point at the beginning of this, however, was more to do with the point that Rosalie, as School Secretary, had felt it was her role to discuss official correspondence with Joey prior to the Headmistress even being aware of the letter. While Rosalie's role will, obviously, mean she will open a great deal of Miss Annersley's correspondence, for her to discuss it prior to the Head even seeing it is extremely unprofessional.

#28: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:48 pm
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Lesley wrote:

I think Mary's point at the beginning of this, however, was more to do with the point that Rosalie, as School Secretary, had felt it was her role to discuss official correspondence with Joey prior to the Headmistress even being aware of the letter. While Rosalie's role will, obviously, mean she will open a great deal of Miss Annersley's correspondence, for her to discuss it prior to the Head even seeing it is extremely unprofessional.

It does but it also seems very out of character for her. I've never read Rosalie doing anything like that before or again.

#29: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:52 pm
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Ok - again this is taken from Helen McClelland's biography Behind the Chalet School. At this time (1938) Elinor was trying to set up her own school, but the only 2 pupils she had were Helen and Sybil Griffiths. She had been their governess for several years and they were now travelling into Hereford, instead of her travelling to them (so that EBD's newly widowed mother wasn't left alone for long periods of time) to continue their studies with her - so the situation was still very much that she was their governess with responsibility for their learning.

Quote:

No one remembers exactly when disaster struck, but it came towards the end of the summer term. Sybil Griffiths was then about sixteen and she was supposed to be preparing intensively to take an examination the following year - most probably the School Certificate, forerunner of today's GCSE. And then one day (history does not relate exactly how) Mrs Griffiths discovered that Sybil was frequently being taught, not by the qualified and experienced Miss Brent-Dyer, but by her quite unqualified mother. That was too much. Understandably Mrs Griffiths was outraged. And despite the fact that both summer and winter uniforms had been bought for Sybil and Helen, their days at the "school" were brought to an abrupt end.

And it sounds like EBD would have fitted in well with the CBB Procrastination Party Laughing

Despite having bought a large house suitable for a reasonable sized school (it later became a hotel and then a nursing home), she apparently spent more time on the less-essentials (such as designing both the winter and the summer uniform) than on the legal stuff and actually getting pupils. And the summer uniform was brown and white checked ginghams with white collar and cuffs and flame ties Shocked

Another thing that quite surprised me was that as well as housing her school (when it did finally get some pupils) was that Elinor and her mother also took in paying guests (mainly elderly ladies) as long term residents. And judging by a comment in the biography, the pupils must have come into contact with them..... Not quite the set up I would have expected or wanted as a parent.

#30: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:43 pm
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Can you imagine the panic if Rosalie had lost the letters in the manner of HM Revenue & Customs?! LOL

#31: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:50 pm
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They did lose letters in Wrong I think. They were soaked with water and unreadable.

#32: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:11 pm
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Quote:

initially they were only one- or two-year certificate or diploma courses.

My eldest sister did a 2-year teaching qualification at Derby in 1959, my next sister did a 3 year Cert ED in 1968. I went to Bishop Lonsdale College and did a Cert Ed in 1876, but the year after that it was changed to a BEd! Were we less qualified, or was ther just a change of name?

#33: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:17 pm
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So does that make you about 152 years old Karry? Twisted Evil

#34: Author: Sugar, Location: second star to the right!

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:25 pm
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It doees seem very unlike Rosalie to talk to Jo BEFORE she had spoken to Hilda... what happens to confidentiality but I suppose because Jo is "the first ever pupil" people thiink she doesn't count but personally I'd not tell Jo anything unless I wanted the entire Platz to know in 5 mins flat!

#35: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:27 pm
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Pat said

Quote:

So does that make you about 152 years old Karry?

There are times when I feel like that, Pat! Surprised

#36: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:36 pm
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The biographical stuff throws an interesting light on the cosy lack of professionalism of Jo and Rosalie making school decisions ahead of Hilda. Clearly she was retaining elements of the nearly domestic set-up her own school had (relatives filling in, paying guests, informality, small numbers) into her much larger, more successful fictional school. From what one gathers about schools in the early part of the 20thc, what seems now like eccentric set-up was not out of the norm.

#37: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:27 am
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Actually, it does put a different light on the empathy and understanding that is frequently ascribed to Mary-Lou, Joey and Len. All three usually have special insider information about the person they are supposed to be helping, while the other people are working blind. No wonder they can figure out exactly what is wrong!

I get the impression that there is a big difference between the small Dame school, like the Chalet School started out as, and a bigger school. In the smaller school the emphasis is more on a general girls' education, few of the girls are planning on further education, and the teachers are mainly unqualified but experienced. In a larger and much more expensive school which advertises exam preparation, a full selection of courses, a high university entrance rate and university educated teachers, there is much more emphasis on the qualifications and results.

#38: dame schools Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:39 am
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jennifer wrote:

I get the impression that there is a big difference between the small Dame school, like the Chalet School started out as, and a bigger school.

I think dame schools, at least in a UK context, were common before primary education became compulsory in the late 19thc. They were only for younger children, who were often only taught basic literacy by a woman in her own home- and sometimes functioning more as cheap childcare than a school. (More like the local village schools Jo tends not to send her children to, for reasons the reader is supposed to understand without further explication, other than a few references to bad habits and accents.)

I see the early CS as developing more out of the 18th/19th/20th century private boarding school set up by women in their own homes as one of the few things they could do to make a living - like the Brontes, if they had ever managed to get any pupils! EBD's own school still sounds similar to that, and so does the original school at the Chalet, with a very young, unqualified head mistress who's opened a small school because she has no other financial resources.

But of course the CS goes from strength to strength and eventually becomes a large school which puts its girls in for public exams and sends them to university and into the professions - but I think one of the things many of us like about the series is either the early Tiernsee books, where the school is still tiny and quirky, and essentially a domestic environment, or the fact that the larger UK and Swiss CS it is that it still retains many of the original quirks of the small private school it once was.

#39: Re: dame schools Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:27 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

The dame schools were as you describe, but they didn't resemble the village schools of the mid 20thc, or even the later 19thc. Those schools were part of the state-funded education system, were subject to inspection, would have teachers who had at least been through a pupil-teacher training, or even been to a training college, and might have pupils going on to High School.

Roisin wrote:

Regardless of whether teachers were required to have qualifications or not, parents of pupils at the Margaret Roper School did still express dissatisfaction at having Nelly Dyer teach their pupils, because she was unqualified.

I think the point was that EBD was well-qualified, and had experience of teaching in big schools, and that was the quality of teaching her pupils' parents were paying for and expecting to get. Not surprising that they'd consider themselves short changed when their daughters were being taught by her wholly unqualified mother.

#40: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:58 pm
—

JayB wrote:

Roisin wrote:

The original question was should Rosalie have shared private school correspondance with Joey before she showed it to Miss Annersley - was it unprofessional? Then the point was raised that the series is based on EBD's own experiences of running a school, and were her methods unprofessional, especially as one of the reasons her school failed was because she was letting her unqualified mother teach her pupils. I thought the posts following this had spiralled into a 'teachers had less qualifications in general then' and that this made it seem as if those parents had pulled their pupils out on unreasonable grounds. So my point was that they (the parents) had made a claim against EBD's own school that it was unprofessional, that their claim was valid (despite other's experiences of schools/ teaching qualifications in general) and that therefore the idea that EBD's school (and therefore Rosalie's actions) was unprofessional and possibly wrong, is still valid. I don't say I agree with it, but I think it's a valid point to raise.

#41: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:18 pm
—

Quote:

The original question was should Rosalie have shared private school correspondence with Joey.

My take on this is that Joey was a member of school staff, just not an official one. If you accept that argument (and I know that not everyone does) then it seems a lot more reasonable.
Even if you don’t, many people would discuss issues pertaining their work with a close friend/partner - although I agree you rely on their discretion. Wink

#42: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:35 pm
—
Well, that lets Jo out, doesn't it?

#43: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:37 pm
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She's also a shareholder isn't she? wouldn't that give her some official standing?

#44: Author: Sugar, Location: second star to the right!

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:09 pm
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I'd have thought she was meant to be a silent partner, after all shes not a member of staff.. but then the idea of Joey being silent on anything .......hmmm lol

#45: Author: Jenefer, Location: London

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:50 pm
—
What are EBD's qualifications? It is a long time since I read Behind the CS and I cannot remember.

While the reasoning behind the name change is good, it should have been left to Theodora and her friends to find a suitable name. Also Ted is a boy's name so what happens when she grows up?

#46: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:59 pm
—

Sugar wrote:

.. but then the idea of Joey being silent on anything .......hmmm lol

#47: Re: dame schools Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:05 pm
—

JayB wrote:

I don't think I suggested they were similar, and certainly not in terms of parity of qualifications, just that the traditional dame school would have had more in common with a small rural one-teacher school (of the kind CS characters generally don't attend because the quality of their education is perceived as poor by CS adults) than it would have with the CS.

Although your point has made me think that there's a discussion to be had about the way other schools (High Schools, St Scholastika's, the 'other' CS etc) are represented in the CS novels...

#48: Author: miss_maeve, Location: Buckinghamshire, UK

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:40 pm
—

Jenefer wrote:

What are EBD's qualifications? It is a long time since I read Behind the CS and I cannot remember.

Didn't she study art somewhere? *can't quite remember either*

#49: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:47 pm
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EBD trained as a teacher in Leeds, if I remember correctly.

#50: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:36 pm
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( From Behind the CS) EBD taught for 3 years without having any formal qualifications, then did a teacher training course in Leeds (calling herself Patricia Maraquita!).

#51: Re: dame schools Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:10 pm
—

Sunglass wrote:

I see the early CS as developing more out of the 18th/19th/20th century private boarding school set up by women in their own homes as one of the few things they could do to make a living - like the Brontes, if they had ever managed to get any pupils! EBD's own school still sounds similar to that, and so does the original school at the Chalet, with a very young, unqualified head mistress who's opened a small school because she has no other financial resources.

There were a very great many schools like that when I was growing up. Mostly they were run by the "surplus women" left over from the First War, when the men they might have married had been killed off. My primary school was one such - I rather think the house was the family home; the headmistress and her (widowed? divorced? in any case allegedly alcoholic) sister lived there, as did seven or eight small girls whose parents were abroad or otherwise unable to have them with them. I think life for the boarders was pretty dire - but then the school as a whole was, probably. Certainly I was taught maths very badly, to the point where I'm almost totally innumerate and had no hope whatsoever of proceeding past O level as I didn't, and don't, really understand numbers. Other subjects were taught well enough, though, to get us through Common Entrance.

My brother attended a similar school round the corner until he went to prep school aged 7. Interestingly, the headmistresses of both schools were both lame and used calipers and a walking-stick, if not crutches - polio was, of course, still a very major scourge.

Both schools closed in the mid-1960s, as did so many other schools of their kind as the heads got just too old to cope. Had things been otherwise, I suspect the Margaret Roper school might have lasted until then, too.

#52: breach of confidence Author: JS, Location: Perthshire

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:32 pm
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Hello, I'm new - first post!

Reading this thread, particularly about Rosalie sharing "confidential" information with Joey, reminded me that it's fairly usual in the Chalet School for people to breach confidences/let cats out of the bag in the most unprofessional way.

Even Miss Annersley could be guilty. There's a passage in Ruey Richardson - Chaletian (pg 151 in the hardback edition) where Josette says she expects she'll be going to St Mildred's but Miss Annersley responds: "Then you expect wrong. However you must tackle your mother on that point. But as a matter of fact, both you and Sybil will be saying goodbye to us at the end of the Easter term and when you come back, you two will be grown up."

Of course she then adds that this is "off the record" etc but poor Josette, can you imagine? Her view of what the next few years will hold is undermined completely, in front of her friends, then the head refuses to give any more info. If I'd been Josette - or, indeed, Madge, I'd have been pretty fed up about that. But maybe 17 or 18-year-olds in the late 50s/early 60s weren't supposed to feel they had any say in what was decided about them??

#53: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:51 pm
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I read that as Miss Annersley intentionally letting Josette know because she didn't approve of Madge keeping it a secret from Josette. I think Madge behaved badly in not telling her daughter who had every expectation of going to St Mildreds.

#54: Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:56 pm
—

Lesley wrote:

I read that as Miss Annersley intentionally letting Josette know because she didn't approve of Madge keeping it a secret from Josette. I think Madge behaved badly in not telling her daughter who had every expectation of going to St Mildreds.

I agree with you, Lesley.

And yes, JS, teenagers in the fifties were very definitely supposed to do what their parents said - I can vouch for that. After all, we didn't have the vote till we were 21 and couldn't marry without their permission till 21. We were regarded as children upto that point.

#55: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:34 pm
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I read it that Hilda told Josette because she heard her making lots of plans for St Mildred's with her friends and didn't want her to get excited about it all and then be really disappointed when she found out she wasn't going - something that Madge obviously hadn't bothered to consider.

#56: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:45 pm
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I find it kind of strange that the reason Madge pulls Josette (and Sybil) out of school is because, as Josette says in Wins the Trick:
Once I start on my job she'll [Madge] get precious little of me and she wants to have this final year.
It seems a little late for Madge to be thinking of that after sending her girls to boarding school abroad for all those years. She could have sent them to the English branch instead where it would have been a lot easier to see them frequently like on weekends or half term.

#57: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:58 am
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I have to say, Jo would not be high on my list of people to share confidential information with, as she doesn't have a good sense of the need to keep it confidential.

I can see situations where someone would discuss a student, or a situation at work, with someone outside the structure of the workplace (such as a spouse or former teacher). However, you need someone who is able to remain confidential, and generally you need to blur details - mention a student, or a client, but not the names or case numbers.

#58: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:46 pm
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As a teacher, I blur the details when retelling what the little cherubs get up to... However, I wouldn't dream of going round saying "x's mum said this about her" - I'd go to the senior staff or mentors and say "this is the issue at home" and let them disclose as they see fit.

Anyhoo, back to Ted. When Joey slips in to have her chat with Ted before anyone else, Hilda says "don't you trust us?" which is pretty telling. Not Hilda in a nark, but to me it reads as a slight caution towards Joey. I'd be quite insulted if one of my ex-pupils suddenly started saying that they should be the one to meet and gtreet new entrants to the school!

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