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Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7462

Author:  Rob [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

During my recent re-reading of Bride Leads, the following bit jumped out at me:
[The staff are discussion Miss Annersley potentially having to expel whoever wrecked Bride’s study; bold text is my emphasis]
EBD wrote:
“It’s only happened twice in all these years.” Biddy O’Ryan ventured. “First that awful idiot Thekla; and then, years after, Betty Wynne-Davies – and I’ve always thought that Betty was more sinned against than sinning. The poor kid!”
The Head nodded. “Betty made good later, thank God! In her case of course, expulsion was inevitable. She would have suffered too heavily if she had stayed on. I’m hoping that whoever has done this disgusting thing, will prove to be repentant enough for us not to have to inflict the worst.”


Since the speaker, Biddy O’Ryan, is generally presented as a good, popular and well rounded character, we (as reader) are presumably supposed to agree with the statement in bold and accept that Betty got a raw deal whilst Thekla got her just desserts, but I don’t really understand why?

Thekla was badly behaved, had a bad influence on the younger girls, thought she was better than everyone else, skipped lessons (is this the only time this happens in the CS universe) and deliberately tries to hurt Joyce and get her into trouble. However we see later girls such as Diana Skelton and Margot Maynard who are at least as bad, for whom expulsion is considered but not taken up. Thekla is also told that had Mrs Linton died, she would have been a murderess :shock: this seems awfully over the top and thankfully Jo's involvement averted this :roll:, but IIRC, this was not part of Thekla's plan, she merely wanted to hurt Joyce.

Betty was also badly behaved (and had been ever since she joined the school), had a bad influence on the younger girls, was inclined to be a bully and in an attempt to get revenge over and deeply upset the McDonald twins, colluded with a German spy. Whilst again she isn't shown as having thought her plan through as far as assisting Germany against Britain during wartime, she was involved in actions which certainly at the time (1942ish) were considered to be a danger to national security - all because Fiona trapped her finger! The (school) authorities, Jo and Janie Lucy deal with the situation with great kindness, even going so far as to find her a new home and reccomend she join the WRNS and Mr Iron's reaction is seen to be callous and uncaring.

As Miss Annersley said, Betty later ‘made good’ but in fact both girls were later seen to have reformed and to have accepted that they were indeed 'in the wrong' during the relevant scenes at school, Betty in her meeting with Jo and Janie and Thekla in her letter to Mlle Lepattre (Simone?).

Although seemingly set in 1948, Bride Leads was published in 1953. Whilst this might have meant that the war was no longer at the front of everyone’s minds, I find it hard to believe that the GBP would have become so tolerant of ‘traitors’ (although obviously EBD doesn’t always represent what the GBP think – e.g. with the Peace League and distinction between Germans/Austrians and Nazis) that Biddy would overlook the reason why Betty was expelled, even if she felt sorry for her. Is this then, simply an example of EBD’s dislike for Prussian Germans (as opposed to Bavarian Germans or Austrians) or is something else going on that I am missing?

Author:  ammonite [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Wasn't Biddy at the school at the same time as both of them and knew them personally, however, Biddy was involved in some of Betty's pranks (the play on the roof?) and so probably understood Betty more plus Biddy probably suffered from Thekla's attitude to her background.

Author:  Shander [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

One factor might be that if I remember correctly, Betty did show remorse for what she had done and even showed regret before she got caught, while Thekla was only sorry that she had been found out.
There might also be the play that Betty is an orphan with only a very stern, unloving guardian to look after her, while Thekla is seen as being overindulged and spoiled.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Biddy and Betty were about the same age, and would have known each other well. She wouldn't have had much to do with Thekla, who was older than her and would certainly have looked down on her because of her background.

I do think that Thekla got a raw deal, though - maybe because, as I was waffling about in another thread recently, EBD does seem to've had something of an issue with Prussians. It was horrible of Mlle to make that "murderess" comment: the only other person who has to put up with anything even remotely like that is Stacie, who's made to feel that it'll be her fault if Robin gets ill, and that's from Jo rather than from the CS authorities. Betty bursts into tears all over Elizabeth, and bursting into tears seems to excuse an awful lot in CS-land, so maybe that helped her cause.

I don't really know what the point of the Thekla storyline is, other than to show "Junkers" in a bad light. The Betty spy storyline is very specific to the war, but the main effect of the Thekla storyline seems to be to show that the CS sometimes fails to reform people, which seems an odd thing for EBD to want to show about her perfect school. Yes, it shows that lying and sneaking and snobbery are unacceptable at the CS, but usually the point is that the CS can turn a bad girl into a good girl, and with Thekla it never even comes close.

Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

I always thought that the reason Thekla was expelled (and I've said this elsewhere, so sorry for repeating myself!) is that she isn't sorry at all about what she's done. I don't think what she's done is that bad, but Mlle. says that it's not just "one little thing" - she's been making problems since she arrived at the school, and has simply topped it off by attempting to use Joyce to hurt Jo.

Betty, by contrast - if she'd done something similar, not during the war, perhaps she'd be allowed to stay on. As it was, she was essentially betraying her country, and given the public nature of the school's discovery of this she'd never be able to be happy at school, I think.

I also think that the fact these are both older girls trying to hurt or use younger girls is important.

Can I just add that if anyone else was going to be expelled, apart from Margot, whose name comes up a lot for some reason :lol: I'd add Joy Bird? She almost kills Lavender, and she not only never confesses to the staff, she never acts like she's particularly sorry about it. She's only worried that Lavender might tell - and Lavender, who has learned a harsh lesson about sneaking, would never do that.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

EBD wrote
Quote:
“First that awful idiot Thekla; and then, years after, Betty Wynne-Davies – and I’ve always thought that Betty was more sinned against than sinning.


I agree with you Rob - both girls have extenuating circumstances that can explain why they behave as they do, and although they are both expelled and later say sorry, it seems that Betty is given a better deal than Thekla.

Really, Thekla's bringing-up set her families belief in stone - what chance did she have to think any differently if that was all she knew and she was surrounded by adults expressing their views as truth. Betty, on the other hand, would have encountered lots of different people with different points of view, so I think she has less excuse if we are only talking about the why of things ...

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

But I always got the impression with Betty before this that it was just harmless mischief of the sort that most girls tend to involve themselves in, and she just went on slightly longer than most. Plus she did have her background to explain her.

Thekla was always, fairly or not, going to be compared to her cousin Marie, and not favourably. Clearly it isn't just her family, or Marie would be the same, and in a way she is given far more of a chance to reform. Because she does get involved in horrible pranks before that, she's given the chance to see the error of her ways and reform, which Betty isn't to the same extent thanks to hers being a nice naughtiness.

I do rather like to think that EBD wanted to create Thekla to be a bad girl, but then found that she just couldn't reform her and didn't quite know what else to do.

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Perhaps it's partly that the staff members (particularly Biddy) would simply have more fond memories of Betty? Yes, at the end Betty was a bully and allowed her own desire for revenge (on a Junior) to overcome anything like rational thought, resulting in her actually betraying her country. But the school knew her before that. They saw her when she was a naughty but honest, loyal and fun loving Junior Middle. They knew her as a fairly bright young girl (I think?) who probably added a lot to class discussions when she felt like it, and at any rate would liven up lessons one way or another. They remembered her from when she was best friends with Elizabeth and so from all that saw the potential in her to become a strong woman that the CS could be proud of. And then at the very end they saw that girl again, when she finally realised what she had become, unburdened herself to her former best friend and promised to try to do better.

By contrast Thekla came to them as an older, unpleasant teenager pretty much without any redeeming qualities. They knew her as being snobbish, cold, not particularly bright and the cause of Marie's only loss of temper in the entire series. All of which she topped off with bullying a younger girl and not appearing to see anything wrong with any of it. So although rationally speaking Betty's crime was far more severe than Thekla's, there's a far more emotional response to Betty's expulsion from her old friends and ex-teachers.

Author:  Miss Di [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Alison H wrote:
I don't really know what the point of the Thekla storyline is, other than to show "Junkers" in a bad light. The Betty spy storyline is very specific to the war, but the main effect of the Thekla storyline seems to be to show that the CS sometimes fails to reform people, which seems an odd thing for EBD to want to show about her perfect school.


Don't forget that Thekla was sent to school because her brother was a member of Hitler Youth and her parents were afraid of her being 'infected'. So perhaps the grandees of the school were really on the look out for bad behaviour on her part so she didn't 'infect' any one in the same way.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Thekla was always, fairly or not, going to be compared to her cousin Marie, and not favourably. Clearly it isn't just her family, or Marie would be the same, and in a way she is given far more of a chance to reform.


Although Marie and Thekla were cousins (but wasn't the relationship a distant one? Not first cousins?) and so technically came from the same family, in reality their up-bringings were worlds apart. Marie's family didn't suscribe to the beliefs of Thekla's - geographically and in terms of world view their families were very different. So I wouldn't dismiss the effect 'family views' would have on Thekla on the basis that Marie came from the same family and therefore Thekla should have been more like Marie ...

Author:  Loryat [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Miss Di wrote:
Don't forget that Thekla was sent to school because her brother was a member of Hitler Youth and her parents were afraid of her being 'infected'. So perhaps the grandees of the school were really on the look out for bad behaviour on her part so she didn't 'infect' any one in the same way.

I could never figure out if the 'Young Germany' referred to in the pb is the beginnings of the Nazi mass movements or the earlier, pro-democracy spirit of the Weimar Republic. I always slightly favoured the latter, as it seemed to me that Thekla's family would probably prefer the authoritarianism of Nazism to the liberal Weimar era. Is the hb any more explicit?

I think Betty, an orphan whose really never had a home life since the death of her parents when she was six, is forgiven because of these extenuating circumstances. And, of course, she is remorseful. Her crime is much greater but remorse really does count in CS land.

Thekla has the extentuating circumstances of having been effectively brainwashed by her parents, but EBD never really seems to see it that way. Maybe she thinks that Thekla simply doesn't want to change? If Thekla was a girl from a Nazi family who'd also been brainwashed and went around disparaging Jews etc, would we the readers feel less sympathy? And of course Thekla, alone of all the 'bad girls' in CS, doesn't show any remorse.

Betty's crime is the worst, but Thekla perhaps appears less redeemable (though she does repent later - EBD could never have a wholly remorseless character! :D ).

Author:  trig [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

I doubt Thekla's family would have approved of either democracy or Naziism. At the time of writing, I expect the officer classes would have dismissed the Nazi leaders as vulgar upstarts...

I'm quite surprised that it's only the two expulsions in the entire series, although agree that this is probably because EBD thought the CS was so perfect in later years it could reform any one. :roll:

I thought the Thekla storyline pretty weak and pointless, and surprising for that, as at the time the plots were generally well written. It was more akin to the common storyline in Bunty strips where spoilt snob girl gets her comeuppance and plucky working class/ hidden heiress in disguise wins through. In some ways it was so bad it was almost funny, with girls falling down crevasses on the same journey that Marie shakes Thekla sensless and Thekla herself does the sitting down I'm not drinking the smelly milk stunt. A later swiss book could have spun all this out into the one plot...

As to Betty, I never really saw her character develop. In the early books in which she features, she's pretty interchangable with Elizabeth - and even in Exile I seem to remember it was Elizabeth sulking after the garden incident. In Highland Twins she becomes almost comic opera villainess, but to be fair to EBD, I expect she was under pressure from the publishers to do a spy/ careless talk costs lives storyline.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

The Betty storyline in Highland Twins is very war-specific. The thought of the Nazis sending someone to root through the Chalet School girls' lockers, and Betty committing treason (which is a capital offence in the UK even now) because she was narked that Flora'd trapped her fingers in a deckchair and she'd overheard Robin and Daisy gossiping about her, is a bit ... strange :roll: , really.

Most "Junkers" were opposed to Nazism, certainly in the early days: I think that EBD's view of "Prussians" related more to the First World War than the Second World War.

I'm not sure what it says that the only two expulsions in CS history both arise from storylines which don't really fit into the series as a whole ...

Author:  Miss Di [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Loryat wrote:
I could never figure out if the 'Young Germany' referred to in the pb is the beginnings of the Nazi mass movements or the earlier, pro-democracy spirit of the Weimar Republic. I always slightly favoured the latter, as it seemed to me that Thekla's family would probably prefer the authoritarianism of Nazism to the liberal Weimar era. Is the hb any more explicit?



Hmmm I thought Hitler Youth when I read it as a child and have never re-examined my thinking on the subject :oops:

Shall have to do some re-reading and see what the actual words are.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

Alison H wrote:
...and Betty committing treason (which is a capital offence in the UK even now)


Actually, the death penalty for treason was abolished by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 along with the death penalty for piracy with violence

I agree that the two storylines don't really seem to fit in with the rest of the series; and if we take it as being the Hitler Youth then they could both be said to be war related. Though I'm puzzled as to why EBD would choose to include the Hitler Youth; she doesn't mention politics much in the rest of the series, the only other example before 'Exile' that I can think of offhand is the reference to Britain giving Austria money.

Author:  Loryat [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

She definitely mentions 'Young Germany', whatever that is! She seems to have a bee in her bonnet about Prussians, but actually there are quite a few (vague) references to current affairs in the early CS books. For example 'horrid Russia' is obviously a reference to Russia post-revolution, and I'm sure there are others that I just can't think of now!

I don't think Thekla's parents would think much of Nazism, probably regarding the Nazis as a bunch of working/middle class upstarts, but I think they would probably prefer Nazism to liberal democracy a la the Weimar Republic, particularly when you think that among the upper/middle classes there was an increasing fear that the Communists were gaining in popularity. Plus, it always seemed to me that they would regard the 'taint' of democracy and liberalism more seriously than the 'taint' of Nazism.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

There were various youth movements in inter-war Germany, until 1933 (around the time Exploits was published) when they were all banned apart from the Hitler Youth Movement.

Many Junkers weren't supportive of Nazism because, as Loryat said, families like the von Stifts would've regarded the Nazi leaders as being below them socially: I would think that Thekla's half-brother would've belonged to some sort of group that emphasised German nationalism but was also keen on the idea of restoring aristocratic rule and maybe bringing back the monarchy.

The sinister-sounding reference to not wanting Thekla to be "infected" suggests something militaristic, which suggests something with some sort of Nazi leanings, though.

Thekla says something about it being Austria's fault that Germany lost the Great War, Elisaveta makes a comment about "horrid" Russians, somebody (Frieda?) makes a comment to Thekla about the Russian revolution and there are vague references to the Spanish Civil War being the reason that the family of the Spanish lad who was one of the Mystic M (Manuel?) left Spain, and there's that early comment of Madge's about Prussians being full of hatred, but after the War there are very few references to politics. Everything seems to get vaguer (is that a word?) in the later books, though: EBD seems to've decided that she didn't want the books to be tied to a particular time or a real place.

I still think that committing treason as a reaction to someone trapping your fingers in a deckchair and someone else gossiping about your row with your ex-best-mate is a little OTT ...

Author:  Lesley [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

I think, with Betty, her behaviour basically shows that she hasn't yet grown up. She might be 17 years old but she's acting as though she's about 12. She wants to get back at the MacDonald twins and sees an easy way to do it. it's not until later that she realises what she has done - and at that point she is extremely remorseful.


Thekla, however, though her 'crime' was less, was still not in the least bit sorry even after she was told that her actions could have had serious consequences. I don't agree with Mlle telling her she would have been a murderess, but her actions could have resulted in Joyce being expelled - and she was supposed to be a friend. Even when this is pointed out to her she still exhibits no remorse

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

On the subject of EBD looking down on Prussians-

a while ago one of my German friends asked me what stereotypes we had of Germans. I told him that I could think two - one was the loud, fat, slightly obnoxious traveler with an odd sense of humour. He knew that one; what was the other?

"The opposite, I guess," I told him. "Young, business-like, very intense and with no sense of humour at all."

"Oh," he said dismissively, "Prussians".

EBD's ideas on Prussians clearly still have an audience today... :D

Author:  Loryat [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thekla vs Betty: which was the worst of the worst?

:D

Lesley wrote:
I think, with Betty, her behaviour basically shows that she hasn't yet grown up. She might be 17 years old but she's acting as though she's about 12. She wants to get back at the MacDonald twins and sees an easy way to do it. it's not until later that she realises what she has done - and at that point she is extremely remorseful.

That's very true, especially as we're told that part of the reason she and Elizabeth grow apart is because Elizabeth began to grow up and Betty didn't. It's a very interesting storyline and I'm very sorry EBD didn't either write more about it, or revisit it with different girls.

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