The CBB :: View topic - The Bigger Insult?

But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry :cry:

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry :cry:

I've noticed since I joined this website that I find it almost impossible to Joeybash........

I don't know, I mean Jack's is just rather a throw away comment when he's worried about Charles, and he's been having to instruct Len in what to do for the past couple of pages (and lets be honest, she should have known better and gone and woken up Jack and Joey, so Jack might have a right to be irked - and no, I don't think it's soley their parenting, I remember my younger brother coming to me over my parents) and now he wants to rush around getting everything ready for the ambulance coming and instead Len seems incapable of just doing something, she's just buzzing around being a nuisance.

To know that you and Laurie will be with him - especially as Laurie is a doctor - will make me easy about him.

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry :cry:

I've noticed since I joined this website that I find it almost impossible to Joeybash........

As for the comment to Len, it does seem to say something about Jack's attitude to Len - as though he doesn't really think she's much use.

It does come across like that, but perhaps it was just poor phrasing - actually, I have a feeling that "you might as well make yourself useful" is just one of those phrases that EBD really likes and often uses in similar situations. Can anyone think of it being used at other times, off the top of their head?

I'd rather criticise EBD than bash Joey,

[Tor, before you go back to your thesis, is 'Bluestockings' any good?}

Joey and Jack only exist as figments of EBD's imagination, so of course it's EBD's notions of tactfulness, the erosion of female achievement after marriage, ways of talking to your daughter etc that I'm criticising

Of course, I must also further qualify this with the fact that one of the reasons I care so much about exploring and discussing this stuff, is that the CS-books were very important parts of my childhood, and I rather Joey-worshipped as a pre-teen. So in a way I am exploring how I reconcile my fondness for EBD and CS-land, with my more strident adult opinions. get a bit cross with EBD/Joey for not being quite the people I once thought they were... :roll:

Ariel - are you planning to put up your long hair in earphones?

Were I to make a list, Joey's comment to Daisy would be up there in the "things that irritate me the most" in the books. I can't see it as a compliment to Laurie and not an insult to Daisy.

Such a lot is made of Daisy when she's training and how she's won awards then, once she's married, it's all forgotten. I'm not sure what EBD intended to say but this is what she's saying to me - an example of EBD showing us far more about her attitudes (and those of the time) than she intends.

Ariel - are you planning to put up your long hair in earphones?

Shame about the earphones, Ariel. I'd have had to knit you something fetching in lime green to go with them.

...For some reason, this thread is reminding me of Gaudy Night, where the Dons cite the opposite viewpoint (ie what a waste of intelligence) when the former students come back for the Gaudy. I think I might go and read that again this afternoon...

(in deference to Chubbymonkey - by the way I keep feeling I shoud refer to you as Ariel, but have some wierd Jane Austen-esque reservation about doing so without permission :lol:

). The best light I can cast it is, is to make it some kind of veiled in joke between them, where they are raising a fist at a world where Daisy isn't able to take up her role as recognized 'expert' and has to instead be Laurie's wife. Perhaps Daisy does all his research for him... and he darns his own socks?

I am trying to think of a way in which Joey's comment to Daisy could not be construed as rude, and which leaves EBD off the anti-feminist hook

Ariel is fine - :lol:

you don't need to stand on ceremony!

3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker

So EBD does, at least, lack gender-bias when it comes to forgetting people medical qualifications. I think she must have been a terribly slap-dash type of person, or not the brightest of individuals to manage such wholesale EBDisms, for all that I hold her dear

But my dear fellow-CBB-ers, surely we don't need to run around frantically letting EBD off all kinds of hooks, as though she's in a criminal trial?

I can point those out and complain about or laugh at them without feeling one whit less affection for the series, with all its oddities!

The Daisy as Doctor amnesia does make me cross, but it's also interesting to think about it as showing the limits of EBD's feminism

the number of drabbles that I've made a mistake in

Just to be a bit more serious , the idea seems to be that if you have a Real Gift then you dedicate yourself to that. Medicine apparently doesn't count, though

3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker.

I always find Joey's writing career interesting - as it isn't really presented as a vocation, but more like a glorified hobby. She is an unashamedly popularist author (doesn't someone say something rather telling about how her books are read by more people than any of Stacie's works, or was that a drabble... :oops:

), and her work is more about her own desire to write, than with doing great things. JMB wont be winning the Nobel Prize for Literature anytime soon. Thus it fits neatly, as Cosimo's Jackal says, into the milieu of feminine, non-threatening job.

When Joey tells the triplets that Julie Lucy is engaged and Con questions Julie's career, I've always felt Jo dealt brushed it off when it could have heralded a serious conversation about marriage and careers.

“Then what becomes of Julie’s career as a barrister?” Con demanded.

“Oh, that’s off. She won’t have time as the wife of a housemaster. However, Janie says she’s intensely happy, so she’s all right.”

Alison H wrote:

3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker.

I thought it was implied at some point that Bruno's hands had been damaged when he was imprisoned by the Nazis, and that was why he had to give up medicine. Or am I entirely making this up? (Stranger things have been known!)

...the only strong, stable and permenant role models for the girls are those that have chosen not to go that route - the school mistresses themselves. Whether EBD intended it or not she shows all those that keep their affiliation with the school remain true to what they want rather than sucumb to what is expected of them by society.

I posed this question because I, for one, felt that Jo was basically denigrating the efforts that Daisy had to make to be accepted at medical school and during her training, as well as her achievements afterwards. I would have been far happier if Daisy had not married but achieved the status of consultant...

Is it an emergency?
Would I think it's an emergency?

I am, however, seriously bothered when discussions and fictional representations start to jeer at everything from Jo's hairstyle to her family size, or assume she was a rotten parent, or somehow warped for interacting with a school in a school story. What drew me to the CS was its niceness.

So, when comments start to sound like the sort of thing my childhood self went to fiction to escape, I flinch. I start to ask myself whether cattiness towards a character reflects the real life behavior of the posters. I have a hard time resisting being drawn into the atmosphere of assuming the worst. My escapist antidote starts to fall into the morass of negativity….

Oh now THAT is the scene that makes me see red. Julie is giving up her law career to marry a housemaster? Not a Senior Lecturer in Economics, Professor Doctor of This and That or even a Count Von Thingumy. A glorified matron!!! Hellooo my modern expectations. Julie will essentially be an unpaid housemistress. Instead of a barrister. How on earth could anyone justify that decision?
:bawling:

As someone about to go and study Law, and considering a barrister as a future career - so I know I'm not as dedicated as Julie - I would happily give it up to get married. Love is far more important than money or position, and yes, Joey's casual response may be a little breezy (but EBD is writing a childrens book, here, she couldn't spare pages to explain the intricacies of women and careers) but that doesn't change the fact that, to me at least, Julie is doing something perfectly acceptable. Ok, so her husband doesn't have a fancy title or lots of money, but they love each other, that doesn't matter.

And, I feel that this must be said or asked. If Jo could employ a nanny, why couldn't Daisy?

I (respectfully!) disagree about Joey's writing not being a career ... I certainly don't see it as less significant than raising her family. She doesn't really spend that much time on domestic duties at all - sure she has heaps of kids, and sometimes darns socks, but mostly she appears to hand off domestic tasks to other parties while she gets on with enjoying herself. She's certainly a prolific writer despite her many pregnancies.

As a kid, I just used to think that the reason women didn't work after they got married in the CS books was because they were....posh.

Perhaps we are harsh on EBD because we expect her to be better than her background and upbringing.

I do agree with Kathy_S that sometimes the discussions on here can be - not nasty, but not pleasant either

I do agree with Kathy_S that sometimes the discussions on here can be - not nasty, but not pleasant either.
...
Of course, I know I probably annoy some of you by always trying to justify EBD...

]unlike Julie, you can have Love and Law! (That should be a Mills and Boon novel about lawyers!

)

Will Mitchell convince Julie that she too can be guilty of falling in love? Or will this simply turn out to be a crime... of passion?[/i]

...sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it...

everyone here is on the CBB because of a devotion to the CS in the first place?

She had little scope to go into her own opinion on whether women should be allowed to continue their career or not

And I don't suppose she expected people to be analysing her work quite so closely, either :lol:

I think that the problem here, relating to both the comments about Daisy and Julie, is that EBD is writing a children's book about a boarding school. She had little scope to go into her own opinion on whether women should be allowed to continue their career or not, because her intended audience would find that incredibly dull in the unlikely event that her publishers ever let her put it in anyway.

I think this is absolutely right. As adults, we're bound to look at the books from a different perspective than EBD's target readers. But she wasn't writing for us. She was writing for girls aged around 10-14...

Though I do seem to have the tendency to Joey bash in my drabbles before redeeming her

I am now paranoid that everyone is reading my posts thinking I'm being really down and horrible - I genuinely am not trying to be. I was merely registering that personally I dislike the trend of always seeing the negatives in EBD's writing.

RroseSelavy wrote:

Alison H wrote:

3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker.

I used that as one of the reasons in one of my drabbles and for the life of me I can't remember which one :oops:

Quote:

For example, now when I read more than one of the books at a time, or very close after each other, the faults tend to become exaggerated

It may be that we take it for granted that we all do admire her and therefore we don't need to keep saying so

I can see the faults in EBD's writing, especially in the later books

This is why things like Ju Gosling's criticism of EBD's "failure" to talk about puberty and periods annoyed me

My reading order is currently the order GGBP release them in - plus the odd couple that I buy from here - and I'm not doing re-reads because I have too many new books to get through at the moment. I have, as yet, to do a full read through, never having owned the whole set, but I guess that you would tend to spot trends and mistakes more easily trying to read them all.

I think the reason that we pick over the books and EBD's intentions so much is in a large part because the CS is very firmly anchored in the real world and makes reference to real events and social changes...

I think that that's a good point, JayB. We were talking the other day (my step-sister, mother and I) about how for women now it feels almost obligatory to go back to work after maternity leave because the man may no longer be the one earning the most money, but it must be infinetely easier in times of childcare day centres, washing machines and - especially with triplets! - disposable nappies.

For example, I find it quite odd that, in Pride and Prejudice, Mr Wickham and his fellow officers have nothing better to do during the Napoleonic Wars than go to dances, play cards and chase after women.

An economist I know says that actually, in the days where women mostly didn't work after they were married, men were paid a proportionally higher wage than people are now, because that wage was supposed to support their entire family.

Alison H wrote:

I don't find it that odd, but I suspect my own vaguely Marxist and strictly anti-Colonial view of history has never endeared British officers to me...

by the time that Jo says that to Daisy, ought she not to have learned not to speak so thoughtlessly?

The difference is that when she's a girl and young woman, her lack of tact and discretion are recognised as flaws by other characters, and by EBD in the narrative, but by this stage they're just supposed to be examples of Jo's 'breeziness' and never criticised, and even presented as positive and helpful on occasion.

What I don't understand is how it can spoil things for one reader for another reader to take a different approach to a book or character, especially given that everyone here is on the CBB because of a devotion to the CS in the first place? The levels of knowledge/detailed recall shown here on the average thread are still blowing my mind...

That said I now have an unatural hatred of Hilda Annersley who is to a nice charcter, and nothing more, purely due to the hero worship of her on the board

Fiona Mc wrote:

That said I now have an unatural hatred of Hilda Annersley who is to a nice charcter, and nothing more, purely due to the hero worship of her on the board

Ha, actually I kind of do that. If a character is often picked on (like Joey and Mary-Lou) I start loving them, whereas if there's a character who everyone else seems to admire I start to dislike them out of spite... Just call me Mary Mary Quite Contrary

Daisy is the top Chalet School girl in the entire series, IMHO. She qualified as a doctor - the only girl to have done so by the end of the series -
.

I wonder whether, in a way, this is Margot saying that medicine will be her life and she won't be prepared to give it up for marriage?

Margot talks about joining her Order and then taking a Certificate in Tropical Medicine - but once she has joined, it won't be up to her. She'll have to go where she's sent. Daisy has the choice of returning to medicine when her children are older. Margot will have no choice at all. If Reverend Mother decides Margot should scrub floors rather than practise medicine, that's what she'll have to do. (I wonder if EBD had seen The Nun's Story, where Sister Luke faces exactly that challenge to her obedience).

A lay medical missionary seems a much more likely route for her to follow.

it reminds me a bit of St John Rivers (a man who makes Reg Entwistle look like a true romantic!)

Except that Margot hints at her vocation for a couple of books before PREFECTS - there's a place (quoting from memory, sorry) where she is asked what she is going to do and mutters something about both music and medicine being involved. Forget which book that was in but, for me, that made her announcement in PREFECTS not be a surprise.

It just comes across as if what she wants is to be a doctor in the Third World and that becoming a nun is a way of achieving that

Author:	Jennie [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	The Bigger Insult?
In 'Joey and Co in Tyrol' there are, to my mind, two massive insults. As we know, Len spends hours looking after Charles when he has violent abdominal pains because both Charles and Len are terrified of disturbing their mother's sleep. Yet when Len finally wakes her father he treats her as if she were dirt. When she is dressed Jack tells her that she might as well make herself useful and prepare food and coffee. Excuse me, Jack. This is your oldest daughter, not the maid, and she's spent far longer trying to cope with a sick brother than she ought because you've brought your children up to fear disturbing their mother, who seems to be incapable of looking after her own physical and emotional health. Then when they are preparing to leave the Tyrol, Jo turns to Daisy and tells her that she is quite happy to leave Charles behind in hospital, 'especially as Laurie is a doctor.' Er, Doctor Venables. The prize winning paediatrician? Which is the bigger insult? I can't decide. But I do know what I think about Jack and Jo as parents.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
That insult to Daisy gets me every time! Daisy is the top Chalet School girl in the entire series, IMHO. She qualified as a doctor - the only girl to have done so by the end of the series - at a time when it was still difficult for women to be accepted into medical school, and won a load of awards for her research. Whilst at school, she was Games Prefect, she may also have been Head Girl (it's never very clear!), she got on well with everyone, and she carried Elfie on her back in bad weather when Elfie hurt her ankle. All that after a very difficult start in life. Climbs down off soapbox . Len is too polite for her own good - she should have told Jack that she'd been making herself useful for hours, looking after Charles who'd woken her because he was frightened of waking his parents even though he was in severe pain.

Author:	Lesley [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Daisy's qualifications etc seem to be completely overlooked once she is married - even on their honeymoon Lawrie is seen as somewhat overbearing and over-riding Daisy. I do believe this is how EBD saw things at that time - that women should also defer to men - most strange though as she herself did not have that type of upbringing. As for Jack and Len - perhaps it could be explained as Jack being worried about Charles and wanting to stop Len from worrying - but he doesn't seem to see that actually Charles ought to have gone directly to his parents rather than disturb his sister who, in her treatment of him, actually prolonged the time until he could have surgery by giving him something to drink.

Author:	Jennie [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Yes, entirely the wrong treatment for a case of severe abdominal pain, but EBD thought, or wrote, that hot mild cured everything.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Well, I think the insult to Daisy's long years of training and medal-winning probably squeaks ahead as the worse overall insult for me, given that Joey, her former guardian, seems to have complete amnesia about these massive, time-consuming achievements, which are epic for a young woman of Daisy's generation. Plus, ahem, Daisy isn't all that much younger than Joey - what is she, eight or nine years younger? - given that the summit of Joey's ambitions on leaving school was to live at home on the Sonnalpe and hope she might make it as a writer... I wish someone would write a drabble in which a series of VIPs arrive on the Platz and say 'Oh, Mrs Maynard, don't you have a family connection to one of our brightest medical stars? No, no, not Jem Russell - Jack who? Never heard of him, I'm afraid - got it! You're related to Daisy Venables Rosomon! You must be very proud! What? Oh yes, it's marvellous that you have eleven children, but what about Dr Rosomon's latest research?' On the other hand, while you could explain Jack's words to Len as just a jocular figure of speech, the fact is that Len is always making herself useful, to the point that it makes her self-blaming, fussy and old for her age by the time she's a prefect. What Jack says suggests she needs to be told to be useful, which is completely unfair - she's over-responsible, if anything, as shown by the fact that she tries to treat Charles herself - which could have ended badly... Plus, as I remember someone else pointing out on the board a while ago, it's significant that Joey uses exactly the same expression to two of her main 'helpers' at different points - 'You are a boon and a blessing to me'. One of these helpers is her employee (Anna), one is her daughter! But it's significant she and Jack seem at times to miss the distinction.

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The Bigger Insult? http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6542

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I don't know, I mean Jack's is just rather a throw away comment when he's worried about Charles, and he's been having to instruct Len in what to do for the past couple of pages (and lets be honest, she should have known better and gone and woken up Jack and Joey, so Jack might have a right to be irked - and no, I don't think it's soley their parenting, I remember my younger brother coming to me over my parents) and now he wants to rush around getting everything ready for the ambulance coming and instead Len seems incapable of just doing something, she's just buzzing around being a nuisance. With the comment to Daisy, it reads to me almost as a joke - as Laurie then 'bowed his acknowledgements. "Thanks for the bouquet!..."' To me it reads rather jokingly, to rather emphasise than degrade Daisy's acheivements. But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry

Author:	cestina [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
ChubbyMonkey wrote: But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry I've noticed since I joined this website that I find it almost impossible to Joeybash........

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
cestina wrote: ChubbyMonkey wrote: But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry I've noticed since I joined this website that I find it almost impossible to Joeybash........ Whereas for some of us, that's the cherry on the cake of the CBB! I love the CS, and talking about it, but I don't feel I'm dissing it or 'bashing' EBD in the slightest by wading about and laughing (mostly affectionately) at things (some of which are very much of their time and funny to a 2009 mind), poking holes in some things or characters, or pointing out contradictions between what EBD's telling us to think and what she's showing us. Like the fact that she somehow clearly doesn't in the slightest intend us to regard Joey's overlooking of Daisy's stellar medical career as in any way odd or insulting, because she doesn't ever intend adult Joey to be insulting or unpleasant, when she's clearly both at times as far as I'm concerned. But those of us who do Joey-bash wouldn't bash so hard if it wasn't clear that EBD has no perspective whatsoever on her favourite character. If she didn't keep more or less canonising her so obviously, we would probably just shrug and say she's not intended to be a perfect character. But EBD does intend us to find her perfect! But then it would get pretty dully pretty fast on here if we all just chorused 'God, I love this book.' 'Yes, me too.' 'Yes, I love the bit where....' 'Oh, that's the best bit.' etc etc.

Author:	Lesley [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I don't know, I mean Jack's is just rather a throw away comment when he's worried about Charles, and he's been having to instruct Len in what to do for the past couple of pages (and lets be honest, she should have known better and gone and woken up Jack and Joey, so Jack might have a right to be irked - and no, I don't think it's soley their parenting, I remember my younger brother coming to me over my parents) and now he wants to rush around getting everything ready for the ambulance coming and instead Len seems incapable of just doing something, she's just buzzing around being a nuisance. I don't know, I can understand Charles going to Len first - it actually says in the text that his room and Len's are next to each other. But both she and he are very reluctant to disturb their parents because they have been told by Jack that their mother is delicate and fragile. Then, after an hour of trying to deal with things herself because she's been programmed not to disturb her parents and the first words that Charles says when Joey gets there is that he did try not to wake her. As for Len being a nuisance - well first of all she's filled in for their roles for more than an hour, then she's woken Jack, Joey and Anna and started the stove. Then Jack tells her to make coffee as 'Mamma will need a warm drink before going out into the cold' - this is in August in the Tyrol. As for Joey's comment to Daisy - Quote: To know that you and Laurie will be with him - especially as Laurie is a doctor - will make me easy about him. Had I been Daisy I think I would have been extremely annoyed with Joey - even if Daisy was no longer practising as a doctor (did she give up when she got married?) the fact remains that Daisy was the children's specialist.

Author:	Nightwing [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
cestina wrote: ChubbyMonkey wrote: But then I know I tend to try and rationalise whatever EBD writes. I can't EBDbash. I'm sorry I've noticed since I joined this website that I find it almost impossible to Joeybash........ I'd rather criticise EBD than bash Joey, because I think a lot of Joey's later faults are poor writing on EBD's part - like, as a girl and even a young woman she is meant to have good and bad characteristics, but as she gets older EBD finds it increasingly hard to have anyone see Joey as anything but the cat's pyjamas... That comment where Joey very pointedly ignores Daisy, for example. If it was meant as an insult to Daisy, I don't see that Laurie would just stand there and allow it, even if Daisy didn't say anything. At the very least, you'd expect authorial condemnation (eg, "Jo said, tactlessly as usual".) Which to me suggests that EBD had either forgotten that Daisy was a doctor (not unlikely, to my mind) or that she's suggesting that now that Daisy hasn't been practising for some time she's lost her medical knowledge... and given her views on marriage vs careers I wouldn't be surprised by that, either.

Author:	Abi [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I do think EBD saw marriage as far more important than a career, even in the very rare circumstances when a woman did carry on her career after being married - I can quite imagine that to her Daisy's role as doctor was practically irrelevant compared to her that of wife. After all, even Joey's family is usually seen as more important than her career. As for the comment to Len, it does seem to say something about Jack's attitude to Len - as though he doesn't really think she's much use.

Author:	Nightwing [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Abi wrote: As for the comment to Len, it does seem to say something about Jack's attitude to Len - as though he doesn't really think she's much use. It does come across like that, but perhaps it was just poor phrasing - actually, I have a feeling that "you might as well make yourself useful" is just one of those phrases that EBD really likes and often uses in similar situations. Can anyone think of it being used at other times, off the top of their head?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Nightwing wrote: It does come across like that, but perhaps it was just poor phrasing - actually, I have a feeling that "you might as well make yourself useful" is just one of those phrases that EBD really likes and often uses in similar situations. Can anyone think of it being used at other times, off the top of their head? For no reason I think it might have been used on one of Con's sleepwalking expeditions - possibly one where Matey, Sharlie and Kathie are involved? I have no idea if that's right or not, my brain is just telling me that.

Author:	Tor [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Quote: I'd rather criticise EBD than bash Joey, me too - my joey-bashing is just EBD-bashing in disguise. And I love the fact we do pick the books, characters and the blessed-author herself to pieces, rather than just wax on about how much e love them. It's why I come back for more (far too often for my thesis progression ). As the for the greater insult: to Daisy, no question, in my book. Jack's comment seems pretty thoughtless, and rude, and in any normal teenager would have ignited anger and/or upset in equal measure, that Jack-the-father would then have had to deal with (and hopefully apologize for). However, in Len, EBD has her run off and do it, with no authorial criticism of Jack, so we can only assume that Len was (i) not bothered by it (and thus it wasn't said in such a way to be construed as rude, but was one-of-those stiff-upper-lippy ways of expressing thanks etc) or (ii) Len scuttled away thinking/accepting that she wasn't useful, and took another stp down the path of being a fussy, worry-wort. The comment to Daisy, on the other hand, is shocking to me for two reasons: (i) EBD forgot Daisy was a prize-winning paediatrician Maybe, but this definitely does not excuse her in my opinion. What kind of message does this send out to readers? That this kind of achievement is forgettable? Sadly, having just read "Bluestockings" by Jane Robinson, it does seem like this was a common feature of the worlds reactions to those early high-achieving women; (ii) Joey is ignoring Daisy's achievement, for which there is no authorial condemnation. Angers me for the reasons as (i) but with bells on.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I could easily see it as the kind of gruff phrase Matey would use to a girl - you know, all those times when she's snapping at someone 'for their own good'? 'Make yourself useful and wake Karen for some hot milk for the entire school, while I catch sleepwalkers by my super-hearing abilities alone!' (And you're thinking, or I would were I a CS girl, 'Sheesh, what did your last servant die of?') As regards Jack saying it to Len, even throwaway phrases are significant as a sign of how you think of someone, and the relationship between you. As with what Nightwing says above about Joey's failings in the later books being entirely down to EBD, Jack is clearly not being intended by EBD to be being rude to his daughter here. But, like Joey (and her creator 'forgetting' that Daisy is a prize-winning paediatrician), this says everything about EBD's ideas about what constitutes appropriate behaviour in a Big Doctor Head of Family - and this is clearly fine in her opinion. But it doesn't mean that I as a reader have to agree! The whole incident makes me cross. This is the kind of thing is what I'm talking about when I talk about 'Joey-bashing' - obviously, she's not a real person. Joey and Jack only exist as figments of EBD's imagination, so of course it's EBD's notions of tactfulness, the erosion of female achievement after marriage, ways of talking to your daughter etc that I'm criticising. And the reason it comes up more often with Joey, Jack and Len, is that EBD clearly intends us to find them models of her idea of good behaviour, unlike someone like, say, Grizel, Margot, Naomi Elton, or Joan Baker, who are all liable to behave in ways EBD thinks are 'bad'. So when Joey forgets Daisy is a medic who is more qualified than her husband to look after children's health, this tells us more about what EBD considered normal and acceptable than about her character, which is why it's interesting! [Tor, before you go back to your thesis, is 'Bluestockings' any good?}

Author:	Tor [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Quote: [Tor, before you go back to your thesis, is 'Bluestockings' any good?} yes, it is! A fun, if some-what lightweight read, which while falling short of brilliant is stuffed full of interesting information and fascinating anecdote. I've rambled a bit about it in the Recommendations thread. Quote: Joey and Jack only exist as figments of EBD's imagination, so of course it's EBD's notions of tactfulness, the erosion of female achievement after marriage, ways of talking to your daughter etc that I'm criticising Agreed, with a big thump of my fist on my desk! Of course, I must also further qualify this with the fact that one of the reasons I care so much about exploring and discussing this stuff, is that the CS-books were very important parts of my childhood, and I rather Joey-worshipped as a pre-teen. So in a way I am exploring how I reconcile my fondness for EBD and CS-land, with my more strident adult opinions. get a bit cross with EBD/Joey for not being quite the people I once thought they were...

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Tor wrote: Of course, I must also further qualify this with the fact that one of the reasons I care so much about exploring and discussing this stuff, is that the CS-books were very important parts of my childhood, and I rather Joey-worshipped as a pre-teen. So in a way I am exploring how I reconcile my fondness for EBD and CS-land, with my more strident adult opinions. get a bit cross with EBD/Joey for not being quite the people I once thought they were... Completely agree but am also the complete opposite! I cannot remember the first time I read a CS book, but pretty much ever since I've been able to read I've read them - my mum had about two thirds of them in Armada and one hb, which were passed on to me - and definetely hero-worshipped Joey! (still growing my hair hopefully, though I've modified my ideal family from "thirteen daughters and a few sons" of age 11 to a more manageable 5 ) I think this is the essence of why I can't EBDbash, though - she's shaped so much of my life and always been there when I need comforting, so to speak, and I have to accept her views to a large extent. I think that sometimes in the books you have to read it as what EBD intended to say - that Len is being helpful, and Laurie is a good doctor - than what she actually says.

Author:	JB [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Were I to make a list, Joey's comment to Daisy would be up there in the "things that irritate me the most" in the books. I can't see it as a compliment to Laurie and not an insult to Daisy. Such a lot is made of Daisy when she's training and how she's won awards then, once she's married, it's all forgotten. I'm not sure what EBD intended to say but this is what she's saying to me - an example of EBD showing us far more about her attitudes (and those of the time) than she intends. Ariel - are you planning to put up your long hair in earphones?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
JB wrote: Ariel - are you planning to put up your long hair in earphones? I have tried - and have the hair pins to prove it! - but my hair seems to be too fine, and although I can get it up by myself it looks far from neat. Now, if I had Anna to help me... I tend to go more for Len's pigtail - I only leave myself about ten minutes to get dressed in the mornings and that's nice and quick I think you make a good point in saying (essentially - and please correct me if I've misunderstood you) that EBD writes of her time. Isn't Daisy a mother as well by this point? Obviously she wouldn't be expected to continue a career after that. If I'm right in saying she is, that could also help to explain Jo's comment - Daisy has her own children to worry about, she wouldn't be able to give as much attention to Charles as Laurie (ok, so Joey doesn't say it but... let me have my innocent belief EBD Can Do No Wrong!)

Author:	ClaireK [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
JB wrote: Were I to make a list, Joey's comment to Daisy would be up there in the "things that irritate me the most" in the books. I can't see it as a compliment to Laurie and not an insult to Daisy. Such a lot is made of Daisy when she's training and how she's won awards then, once she's married, it's all forgotten. I'm not sure what EBD intended to say but this is what she's saying to me - an example of EBD showing us far more about her attitudes (and those of the time) than she intends. Ariel - are you planning to put up your long hair in earphones? I don't think the attitude she presents was as prevalent as all that. For example, my aunt qualified as a doctor 60 years ago - and from Edinburgh SChool of Medicine too!! She was a student during the war years when many men enlisted rather than go to university. It certaily was not unusual, according to her! ALso, she kept working after she got married - she had to! Again, this was not seen as being out of the ordinary. It was only when she became pregnant with her 3rd child that she decided to give up work for a while. I would say that EBD didn't move with the times and presents the attitudes from about 20 years before. ClaireK

Author:	JB [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I think that was what I was saying and also that, by the 1950s/60s, her attitudes were a little out of date. Helen McClelland comments on this and says that the "ideas and attitudes" from EBD's early life stayed with her until the end, ie to an unusual degree. For some reason, this thread is reminding me of Gaudy Night, where the Dons cite the opposite viewpoint (ie what a waste of intelligence) when the former students come back for the Gaudy. I think I might go and read that again this afternoon. Shame about the earphones, Ariel. I'd have had to knit you something fetching in lime green to go with them.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
JB wrote: Shame about the earphones, Ariel. I'd have had to knit you something fetching in lime green to go with them. If you knit me something fetching in lime green, I shall promise faithfully to wear it to my first Gather, with my hair in the best approximation of earphones I can manage - or just take some photos to put on Facebook if that doesn't look like being anytime soon She does seem quite dated, even to somebody who wasn't around at the time. I can see the difference between that and other books written about and during the period - but that's just part of the CS. It doesn't change, it remains comforting and a place to escape to, which is why so many readers love it.

Author:	JayB [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I'm inclined to cut Jack quite a lot of slack on this occasion (there are other times when I'm not inclined to cut him any at all). Jack's got a lot on his mind at this moment. Obviously he realises that Chas's condition is potentially serious. He doesn't want to frighten Jo, or Len, or Chas himself, so he has to act as if he's fairly unconcerned. I think he can be excused if he was slightly brusque. The full sentence is (EBD's italics) 'Since you are up and awake, you may as well make yourself useful'. Which suggests to me that Jack would rather she wasn't up. But if he sent her back to bed she would just lie there worrying. Giving Len something to do will help to keep her from worrying, and the brisk, matter of fact tone also suggests that Chas's condition is not too serious.

Author:	Emma A [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
JB wrote: ...For some reason, this thread is reminding me of Gaudy Night, where the Dons cite the opposite viewpoint (ie what a waste of intelligence) when the former students come back for the Gaudy. I think I might go and read that again this afternoon... Yes, for example there's Harriet's meeting with the former Catherine Freemantle - a formerly brilliant scholar - who "went down with great ideas about the dignity of labour," has married a farmer, and whose only concession to her former scholastic attainments is to teach her children. Harriet emerges from the encounter rather depressed, feeling as if she has seen "a Derby winner harnessed to a coal cart." Jack's comment to Len one could argue was borne out of worry about Charles, and an irritation with Len that she hadn't distinguished adequately when was a good and proper time to wake her parents (rather like the imprecisely defined boundary between "sneaking" and "reporting"). Still, it's rather a brusque comment, and Jack should have controlled his feelings a bit better, I think, given that Len must have been in agonies of guilt already. As for Joey's comment about Daisy, I always have assumed that EBD forgot that Daisy had been a medic and a paediatric specialist, too. Surely she can't have assumed that one would forget everything on marriage? Or, one could argue, Joey makes the comment thinking that Laurie, because he is a practising doctor, will be able to get information from the hospital where Charles is being cared for (which can then be forwarded to his family), in a way that non-medical personnel, such as Daisy, who is no longer practising medicine, would not.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
It doesn't seem to happen with teachers! The impression I get is that Madge would have liked to've carried on working, at least until she started a family, had Die Rosen been within reasonable "commuting" distance of the CS. When Hilda and Nell are injured in Gay, Madge says that she'd return to work were it not for the fact that she's expecting (Ailie). When Kathie is ill in Challenge and a sub is needed, and of course they have to get an Old Girl, we're told that Hilary, Biddy and Grizel are not being asked only because they have small kids to look after so it wouldn't be practical (did any of them have live-in "help" like Joey did?). Then again, when Madge gets married, Joey tells someone (Evvy?) that there's no way Madge could work and look after a home at the same time, so maybe it's Joey's attitude rather than EBD's after all .

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I wonder whether EBD herself would have given up her writing career - where she is surely as recognised as Daisy is in her own profession - and not have minded other people forgetting too if she ever got married?

Author:	Tor [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Because it is fresh in my mind, Bluestockings mentions a number of 'working mothers' (including doctors) in the 1920's and 30's which resonates with ClareK's comment about her Grandmother. It seems that then, despite the depression, there wasn't sich an embargo on women working after marriage as we someties imagine. Pressure to cede jobs to men, however, was present and became increasingly so (bar the war years). Bluestockings only deals with the period up to 1939, so preceding Daisy's years at uni, but I think we sometimes think of the recent (and not so recent) past as being less progressive than it was. However, regardless of what university educated women could do, they were, themselves, a tiny minority. Whilst it might not have felt unusual to be say, a working GP, within ones own peer-group of university alumni it was certainly not the norm. And, as is clear from Gaudy Night, and Cambridge's tardiness in awarding degrees to women, people were still very concerned about the general acceptance of women graduates. I am trying to think of a way in which Joey's comment to Daisy could not be construed as rude, and which leaves EBD off the anti-feminist hook (in deference to Chubbymonkey - by the way I keep feeling I shoud refer to you as Ariel, but have some wierd Jane Austen-esque reservation about doing so without permission ). The best light I can cast it is, is to make it some kind of veiled in joke between them, where they are raising a fist at a world where Daisy isn't able to take up her role as recognized 'expert' and has to instead be Laurie's wife. Perhaps Daisy does all his research for him... and he darns his own socks? I doubt that is what EBD was getting at, however

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Tor wrote: (in deference to Chubbymonkey - by the way I keep feeling I shoud refer to you as Ariel, but have some wierd Jane Austen-esque reservation about doing so without permission ). The best light I can cast it is, is to make it some kind of veiled in joke between them, where they are raising a fist at a world where Daisy isn't able to take up her role as recognized 'expert' and has to instead be Laurie's wife. Perhaps Daisy does all his research for him... and he darns his own socks? Ariel is fine - you don't need to stand on ceremony! I think I did say earlier in the thread that to me Laurie's reaction would point to just such a thing - like Joey, earlier in the series, telling someone (Madge?) that she's always doing Jack's darning. Clearly she isn't, she's a full time mother, with a very successful career, who helps a lot in the school. Or when Jack tries to look after Felix and Felicity by himself, and Joey tells Robin that men expect women to find it easy. I think she's a lot sharper than she's sometimes portrayed as being, and actually finds the inequality society expects in marriage quite unfair - which would tie in with her initial stance of "I don't want to get married and just be a wife".

Author:	JayB [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Quote: I am trying to think of a way in which Joey's comment to Daisy could not be construed as rude, and which leaves EBD off the anti-feminist hook Maybe Daisy wasn't licensed to practice on the Continent, whereas Laurie obviously was? (Not knowing anything about the transferability of medical qualifications in the 1950s/60s). Although I very much doubt that's what EBD was thinking of.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
I tried to find out the answer to the question of medical qualifications being acceptable abroad once, when I was moving David to Austria in a drabble, but it was all a bit confusing. AFAIK, British doctors can work in most countries without doing extra exams, but have to take some sort of medical licensing exam in order to work in the USA, and I think possibly also Australia and Canada although that may not have been the case in the '50s. It might well have been different before the days of the EU, though - there was something in the press recently about how there used to be "checks" applied to doctors from other EU countries coming to work in the UK but that now there aren't. Also, in many countries a work visa/permit's needed as it is for any other job, and the same with doctors from abroad coming to work in the UK. As far as CS-land goes: 1. Gottfried has to re-train (or at least pass some sort of conversion exam) in order to work in the UK ... but luckily he can afford not to work for a while as Jem the financial expert told him to transfer his investments into stocks which've done well. 2. Jack is able to work in the UK, Austria or Switzerland without any mention of extra exams. Phil, Frank, Laurie and Reg are all also able to work in Switzerland without any mention of extra exams, as is Jem in Austria. 3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker. Presumably school staff would also need some sort of work permit before they could work in Austria or Switzerland? I'm just imagining various people being rounded up by the authorities for not having the appropriate paperwork ...

Author:	Tor [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Quote: Ariel is fine - you don't need to stand on ceremony! I am pleased to make your acquaintance curtsies Quote: 3. Bruno von Ahlen mysteriously abandons his medical career and becomes a banker So EBD does, at least, lack gender-bias when it comes to forgetting people medical qualifications. I think she must have been a terribly slap-dash type of person, or not the brightest of individuals to manage such wholesale EBDisms, for all that I hold her dear .

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Maybe he just fancied the idea of working in a Swiss bank ?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
Tor wrote: So EBD does, at least, lack gender-bias when it comes to forgetting people medical qualifications. I think she must have been a terribly slap-dash type of person, or not the brightest of individuals to manage such wholesale EBDisms, for all that I hold her dear . I don't know - the number of drabbles that I've made a mistake in, right down to the location of the school , I can well imagine that without the CS Resources site to help her it must have been very confusing! When Kathie applies for a post at the school, there is no mention of paperwork - a lot of information about her having to buy a whole new trosseau, which must have been the most mentioned trosseau in the history of travelling - so presumably if there were procedures in place EBD didn't know of them, which makes it even more improbable that she knew of any regulations for doctors.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Bigger Insult?
But my dear fellow-CBB-ers, surely we don't need to run around frantically letting EBD off all kinds of hooks, as though she's in a criminal trial? I'm perfectly happy to say that while I adore the CS, I realise that there are lots of attitudes expressed in the books as normal, natural or laudable, of which I strongly disapprove. And I'm perfectly prepared to acknowledge that EBD had some sexist, classbound, old-fashioned and plain eccentric ideas that she gives to characters she intends us to read as 'practically perfect' (to quote Mary Poppins on herself!) I can point those out and complain about or laugh at them without feeling one whit less affection for the series, with all its oddities! The Daisy as Doctor amnesia does make me cross, but it's also interesting to think about it as showing the limits of EBD's feminism, or her ideas about what kind of female work was acceptable after marriage and children - novel-writing OK (acceptably feminine and private, can be done at home, doesn't challenge male norms), doctoring evidently not, to the point where everyone seems to have had their memory modified about Daisy, like something out of Harry Potter!