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Why would "Ellen" be considered a ghastly name?

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#1: Why would "Ellen" be considered a ghastly name? Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:51 pm
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In Joey & Co. in Tirol, Len apparently "loathes" Helena as a name.

Quote:

"Oh, it's not as bad as all that!" Ruey retorted. "Have you ever thought that you might have been 'Ellen'?"
Len's eyes widened with horror. "For Heaven's sake! What an appalling idea! All wide-wide-worldish and pi ──"

This reference totally escapes me. I'm assuming there's some relationship between the mysterious wide-wide-worldish and "sickeningly pious," but what?

For me, Ellen has no particular connotation, other than being a common garden-variety name. I think Ellens were practically tied with Helens when I was at school. In terms of books, the only title character Ellen I can remember offhand is Ellen Tebbits (Beverly Cleary, 1953) -- who wouldn't exactly qualify as "pi." Nor would any of the other fictional Ellens that I could come up with.

#2: Author: Ruth B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:08 am
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Well there's Ellen de Generes, but I guess that's before Len's time and not at all pi! Wink

#3: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:09 am
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I remember somebody saying something about a book of that title either here on the CBB somewhere or on the MCR, but I'm not sure where. However I googled and came up with this which might explain it. There is also this one too.

#4: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:15 am
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I've only heard of The Wide, Wide World as being a book that Jo March reads in Little Women.

I would have thought that Ellen was a reasonably common name in the forties... I wonder how we can find out?

#5: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:39 am
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Ellen is a fairly common name around where I live. I do think it is rather old fashioned, but not pi, particularly.

#6: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:58 am
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I think Ellen was quite a common name round here in the 1950s, especially in families with Irish connections. I'd never've thought of it as sounding "pi", but I've never read The Wide Wide World and maybe it was a book EBD didn't like!

#7: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:45 am
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Some of the more old fashioned names are experiencing a resurgence in popularity in North America.

Incidentally, if you want to waste some time, check out

http://babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html

It uses only US data, but is a graphical display of how names have changed in popularity over the past 125 years.

#8: Author: Lisa, Location: South Coast of England

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:07 am
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Thanks, Jennifer, I love things like that! I find it amazing that parents try to come up with an unusual or original name - but lo and behold it seems many of their contemporaries come up with the same name!

#9: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:31 am
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Len has to be referring to Ellen Montgomery.

I read that book ages ago on PG, after it was mentioned in a Beryl Bainbridge novel. Ellen is perfect in every way, the original Mary-Sue character. Rolling Eyes

#10: Author: leahbelle, Location: Kilmarnock

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:43 am
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I personally think Ellen is a much nicer name than Helena - not wishing to offend any RL Helena's, of course Embarassed

#11: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:09 pm
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I'm now wondering if there were ever any Ellen's at the Chalet School? Or in any other EBDs. Was it always on her 'no' list do you think?

#12: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:12 pm
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Thanks for all the insight!
I'll have to put Wide, Wide World on my "to read" list. Shocked

#13: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:08 pm
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LizB wrote:

I'm now wondering if there were ever any Ellen's at the Chalet School? Or in any other EBDs. Was it always on her 'no' list do you think?

Nope, no Ellens. There is a Helena (Bill), a Helen Reeves and a Helene Forster at the school, and a Helen Henderson at St Hildas.

#14: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:29 pm
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It must simply be EBD's taste. She finds the name 'pi' because of the main character in The Wide, Wide World, yet uses 'Elsie' as a fairly main character, which is equally 'pi' and equally old-fashioned to her readers.

#15: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:47 pm
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I always think of Ellen as being more of a "housemaidy" sort of name - not a heroine's name Embarassed

I've a vague feeling that I've read something where the housemaid was called either Ellen or Helen and the lady didn't like it and called then Helen or Ellen Confused

And the only Ellen that I know in RL is now in her 30s and changed her name to Bee when she was in her late teens!

#16: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:50 pm
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Dawn wrote:

I've a vague feeling that I've read something where the housemaid was called either Ellen or Helen and the lady didn't like it and called then Helen or Ellen Confused

My grandmother was a maid and her lady didn't like her name (Margaret) and changed it to Agnes.

Off topic, sorry! Smile

#17: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:55 pm
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Dawn wrote:

I've a vague feeling that I've read something where the housemaid was called either Ellen or Helen and the lady didn't like it and called then Helen or Ellen Confused

I've read whatever it is too! Laughing

#18: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:56 pm
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LizB wrote:

Dawn wrote:

I've a vague feeling that I've read something where the housemaid was called either Ellen or Helen and the lady didn't like it and called then Helen or Ellen Confused

I've read whatever it is too! Laughing

Glad to know I'm not dreaming!

#19: Author: clair,

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:23 pm
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Hi,
I've read it too - 'Murder on the Blue Train' by Agatha Christie where apparently Helen is an unsuitable name for a servant so the lafy employing her says Ellen!

#20: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:39 pm
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It's a changing fashion in names. Ellen was once the sort of name that a parlourmaid would have, just as Emily was a servant's name.

#21: Author: Emerence, Location: Australia

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:15 pm
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Dawn wrote:

I always think of Ellen as being more of a "housemaidy" sort of name - not a heroine's name Embarassed

Ditto that Embarassed

Actually, the Ellen that sprang to mind for me was Ellen Greene from Emily of New Moon, she always seems quite "pi" Laughing

#22: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:39 pm
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clair wrote:

Hi,
I've read it too - 'Murder on the Blue Train' by Agatha Christie where apparently Helen is an unsuitable name for a servant so the lafy employing her says Ellen!

Thankyou clair

#23: Author: catherine, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:46 pm
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My great-grandmother was called Ellen - and when my sister was born - and named Helen - she used to refer to her as Ellen, driving my mum mad!

My manager's daughter is called Ellen - she's three and a bit - but I don't know any other Ellens!

#24: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:08 pm
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My mother has just informed me that she was supposed to be christened Ellen. But my grandmother was ill and my grandfather was deaf, so she ended up being christened Evelyn by accident. So she's always called by her second name. Laughing

#25: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:22 pm
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My grandmother thought for a long time that she was called Ellen - and then sighted her birth certificate and discovered she was actually Helena! This made her much happier...yes she was known as Nell....

Wide Wide World is a very serious read indeed, and the pages are awash with tears as the characters weep so much. There was a version (abridged by Joce Lankester Brisley, I think) published in the 1950s that cut it down to about half, and mopped up a lot of the water. There is a saintly invalid (who dies), a worldly grandfather who tempts our heroine with riches and aristocratic living and whom she is bound to obey because he is her grandfather and an American hero whom the heroine marries when she grows up (he has known her since she was eleven or thereabouts, and has guided her through adolescence). But the first part odf the book when Ellen goes to stay with her aunt on a farm in rural America is fascinating and ahs to cope with farm life is fascinating.

#26: Author: Caty, Location: New Zealand

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:28 pm
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I would guess it was a fashion thing. Just like the plethora of Kye/Kylies & Jasons at the end of the 1990s.....

#27: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:37 pm
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Caty wrote:

I would guess it was a fashion thing. Just like the plethora of Kye/Kylies & Jasons at the end of the 1990s.....

And Jacks and Emmas that are about 0-5 years old now!

#28: Author: Róisín, Location: Gaillimh

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:44 pm
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Oh I am so sick of meeting old schoolfriends and discovering they have a little todder only to find he is called ... Jack! It's a gorgeous name, but every little boy seems to have it now!

#29: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:00 am
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Róisín wrote:

Oh I am so sick of meeting old schoolfriends and discovering they have a little todder only to find he is called ... Jack! It's a gorgeous name, but every little boy seems to have it now!

My great uncle who was probably born in the 1890s was Jack and I just can't think of it as a childs name.

Mind you someone we knew called her baby Stanley around 1990 which was a bit of a Shocked

#30: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:11 am
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My father's a Jack. He was born in the 1930's. According to the Baby Name Wizard site Jack was an extremely popular name during that time. It's interesting how names come into and go out of fashion.

#31: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:54 am
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Lots of people I know who've had babies recently've called them things like Jack and Harry, which were thought of as old men's names when I was little. & in my year at school there were lots of Charlottes, Emilys, Sophies and Lucys, all of which Mum said were considered really Victorian when she was at school. It's fascinating how names come into and go out of fashion!

#32: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:06 am
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macyrose wrote:

My father's a Jack. He was born in the 1930's. According to the Baby Name Wizard site Jack was an extremely popular name during that time. It's interesting how names come into and go out of fashion.

Perhaps it has something to do with babies being called Jack in honour of grandfathers with the same name. It would be about the right period.

#33: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:07 am
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clair wrote:

I've read it too - 'Murder on the Blue Train' by Agatha Christie where apparently Helen is an unsuitable name for a servant so the lafy employing her says Ellen!

Thank you - I had a vague feeling it was Agatha Christie, but I wasn't sure!

#34: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:06 pm
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I had three Uncle Jacks on different sides of my family - but they were all called John originally - the trend is now to make the registered name Jack - my nephew is Jack Stanley Edgar Wallace - and his brother is Alan William Clifford Wallace - Shocked

#35: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:00 pm
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Karry wrote:

I had three Uncle Jacks on different sides of my family - but they were all called John originally - the trend is now to make the registered name Jack - my nephew is Jack Stanley Edgar Wallace - and his brother is Alan William Clifford Wallace - Shocked

Clifford

The last person I knew with the name Clifford was my grandfather (coincidentally, his first name was Stanley!), and he was born in 1909...

Ray *who thought her brother copped for a mouthful with Robert Alfred Stanley for middle names*

#36: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:04 pm
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Clifford the big red dog!

#37: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:07 pm
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I recently taught a class of Junior Infants (Reception) with three Emmas, two Gemmas and three Jacks, and a Second Class (Year 3) with four Seans out of twelve pupils. It's quite exhausting trying to distinguish between them!

#38: Author: Róisín, Location: Gaillimh

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:36 pm
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Katherine wrote:

Clifford the big red dog!

My thoughts exactly!! Embarassed

#39: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:38 pm
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I think my nephew Alan got away quite lightly, Clifford is my Father in law's middle name - his first name is Reginald!

#40: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:25 pm
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Karry wrote:

I think my nephew Alan got away quite lightly, Clifford is my Father in law's middle name - his first name is Reginald!

Reginald? An excellent name. Endorsed by one EBD for the daughter of the original Chalet girl!

Last edited by Katherine on Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

#41: Author: Ruth, Location: Physically: Lincolnshire, England. Inwardly: The Isle of Skye

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:48 pm
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Reginald is one of my favourite names!

#42: Author: Pollyana, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:24 am
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Having lived in Queensland for three years now, I still find the names here fascinating. I work with no less than 6 called Narelle, a name I had never heard of until I arrived here. "Kylie" in the UK is usually a child still, but here I have met Kylies aged 40+. Spelling seems a lot more random, and they almost make up names out of thin air, it seems! Nothing wrong with it, just different.Very odd though compared with the Births lists I used to read in the Times and the Telegraph back home.

#43: Author: Chris, Location: Nottingham

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:58 pm
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'Ellen Montgomery' is also mentioned in 'Heather Leaves School', part of the La Rochelle series - Chapter II, page 18, GGB edition.

'Just because she wasn't a mim little Early Victorian ass behaving like "Ellen Montgomery" or any of the other idiots in books ...'

Later on that page there is also a mention of the 'Elsie' books.

So it seems that Ellen must be an extremely well-behaved (trained?) girl who was all that strict parents might require!

#44: Author: Nicci, Location: UK

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:18 pm
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Isn't there a saying about all work and no play makes Ellen a 'something' girl and Jack a dull? boy? Whatever the something is I'm certain its on the lines of 'boring'

#45: Author: Chair, Location: Rochester, Kent

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:33 pm
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Nicci wrote:

Isn't there a saying about all work and no play makes Ellen a 'something' girl and Jack a dull? boy? Whatever the something is I'm certain its on the lines of 'boring'

Is the word, 'dull'?

#46: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:41 pm
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Nicci wrote:

Isn't there a saying about all work and no play makes Ellen a 'something' girl and Jack a dull? boy? Whatever the something is I'm certain its on the lines of 'boring'

There's a part in one of the Malory Towers books where the girls are teasing new girl Ellen for always studing and they say to her "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" and she responds with "and Ellen a dull girl." Is that what you're thinking of? I don't remember it as a saying on its own.

#47: Author: Nicci, Location: UK

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:48 pm
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Kate wrote:

Nicci wrote:

Isn't there a saying about all work and no play makes Ellen a 'something' girl and Jack a dull? boy? Whatever the something is I'm certain its on the lines of 'boring'

Ah yes, maybe!

#48: Author: Eilidh, Location: North Lanarkshire

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:58 pm
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Kate wrote:

I recently taught a class of Junior Infants (Reception) with three Emmas, two Gemmas and three Jacks, and a Second Class (Year 3) with four Seans out of twelve pupils. It's quite exhausting trying to distinguish between them!

My Brownie Pack last year contained 2 Emily's, 2 Ellie's, an Ella, and an Emma. Fun, given that the girls didn't understand my scottish accent at the best of times. Laughing

#49: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:10 pm
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Eilidh, forgive my ignorance, but how do you pronounce your name? I'm hopeless with Celtic names.

#50: Author: Fatima, Location: Sunny Qatar

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:36 pm
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Embarassed

I always read it as eye lid. Embarassed

But I'm hopeless with Celtic names, too.

#51: Author: Róisín, Location: Gaillimh

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:52 pm
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Ay-lee or eye-lee. I'm pretty sure she says the former. Very Happy

#52: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:49 pm
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Thanks, Roisin.

#53: Author: alicat, Location: Wiltshire

Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:31 pm
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my favourite 'new' names at the moment - culled from reception - are jackie-danielle (we think its what her mum might have been drinking when she fell) and shian - which we wondered at hugely when we saw it on the class list, was it an alternative for sian? only to be told by a slightly indignant mama that it is pronounced shy-anne (so we think she might have meant to spell it cheyenne but had never seen it written down.......)

my daughter's new schoolmates include amaryllis - known as ammy - and ottilie, who prefers totty. we think she might give that up when she gets a bit older, or is she aspiring to be 'top totty?' Embarassed

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