The CBB :: View topic - What's wrong with tactlessness?

My first thought is re Con Maynard - she is forever being castigated for tactlessness - yet i don't see it as that. As a matter of fact i think she is extremely insightful and sees things far more deeply than any of her peers - including her sister Len.

Oh and the second - why was Betty Langdon accused of tactlessness when all she did was point out to her fellow Sixth Former that she should moderate her tones and not allow the Juniors to hear her?

I think it's all about: Would you like it if someone said that to you.

sealpuppy wrote:

I think it's all about: Would you like it if someone said that to you.

Yes, yes, and yes! Some of the most tactless people I know - and I'm defining tactless as "unintentionally hurting other people" are also very thin-skinned, and are very easily upset by others' comments.

...isn't there an incident in one of the war books (I think it's cut out of the pb) in which Stacie's cousin Ned is reported missing in action and Joey says that he's bound to be fine because he's always been lucky. If she'd said gently that missing didn't necessarily mean dead and that Stacie shouldn't lose hope because there was a good chance that he'd turn up as a POW or in hospital, that might've comforted Stacie, which was presumably what she intended to do, but saying it so flippantly just sounded quite heartless, and I think that's often a problem - sometimes the sentiment's all right but the way that people put things isn't.

Getting back to tactlessness in charcters, there's a certain extent where I can see why Betty in the bookend incident and Con at Zermatt as being tactless. Betty is already aware that Margot is grumpier than usual as she was the one who spoke to Len about. Len is talking to Margot about this, with Betty and Alicia in the room, the two who were fully aware, Margot was snapping more than usual, so it probably would have been better to let Len deal with it, or more tactful to let Len deal with it and then the incident of the book throwing wouldn't have happened. Zermatt is the same. Con is fully aware of what is going on with Margot and saying what she said about the clock, it became not so much what she said but where she said it. It caused an argument on the streets of Zermatt. Not Con's fault but but was the trigger with someone who was struggling to control her temper.

Alison H wrote:

I think it's in Lavender, and to be fair to Joey, she's telling this news to friends (having received the news in a letter) so Stacie isn't there to be upset by the comment...

“I haven’t heard from Stacie for a week or two. But it would never surprise me to hear that he’d turned up,” said Jo casually, as she sat down in a wicker chair, and the rest followed her example and found seats. “The Trevanion boys seem to have as many lives as any cat.'

Do we know if Elinor struggled with being tactful, or not? Or if she had been on the receiving end of tactlessness that had hurt her?

Very restrained, MJKB!
I still hate myself for the very worst thing I've ever done in the way of tactlessness.

I find myself so anxious about finding myself in such a situation, though, that I avoid asking anyone how they are and so they all probably think what a snotty uncaring cow I am, when actually I'm just totally paranoid about causing offence or saying the wrong thing, or appearing nosy.

Rachelj wrote:

I find myself so anxious about finding myself in such a situation, though, that I avoid asking anyone how they are and so they all probably think what a snotty uncaring cow I am, when actually I'm just totally paranoid about causing offence or saying the wrong thing, or appearing nosy.

Me too!! Then I spend too long endlessly apologising for it.

Fiona Mc wrote:

Neither situation, in my view, demonstrate a lack of tact. As someone has already pointed out, the CS girls tend to warn each other about the consequences of their behaviour in the way Betty warns Margot.

I don't think anyone said anything remotely tactless and I don't think Len's tactfulness of let's shield Margot at all costs is better behaviour, but I think it falls more into the basket of discretion is the better part of valour

As I had said further on it wasn't tactlessness but perhaps a case of where keeping the peace might have been better for concerned. I don't think either was tactless and neither said anything wrong, but if you have a raging bull coming towards you, isn't it better to get out of its way rather than stand and be attcked.

Yes, there's an argument to be made that 'tactless' Betty should have kept the peace, Frieda-like, because she knows about Margot's hair-trigger temper. Yet there's also the reverse argument to be made, surely, that hot-tempered Margot should realise perfectly well that 'tactless' Betty doesn't mean any harm and isn't actually trying to escalate a row, so she shouldn't react as she does...? But whose 'responsibility' is it to read whose character and make the requisite allowances, in any interaction? Here the implication seems to be that it's Betty's, more than Margot's, just as back in Joey's schooldays, the implication seems to be that Anne Seymour needs to make allowances for Joey, but not vice versa...?

I love this post, Julieanne! I am awful at times; have been known to blurt things out I should not, but do not mean anything by it, and luckily my colleagues and friends know me now :lol:

it's a classic case of think before you speak, but at 32 I may never learn... :wink:

how did Joey over come it - she raised a family of 11, and seems to sail through life and people forgive her for not having much tact; maybe it was because they knew her, and knew that nothing was vindictive.

I know it seems to be a common theory on the board, but considering when the books were written I would be really surprised if EBD intended the juvenile reader to infer that Simone had fertility problems from the large gap in their family. I personally think it's far more likely Simone and André didn't have the financial means to extend their family until André had worked his way up in his uncle's firm and eventually had come into the inheritance. Therefore it wouldn't necessarily have been such an emotive issue for Joey to joke about with one of her best friends once the reason for the lack of children was removed.

I was thrilled to the last toenail when Andre wrote to tell me that they had a son at last! I know both he and Simone had begun to fear that Tessa was to be an only child and that hadn’t been their idea at all.”

People just don't stop to think sometimes. A common example in RL is someone suggesting going to an expensive bar/restaurant/hotel without stopping to consider the fact that some of the people they've asked are on a tight budget. It's realistic enough that people in CS-land make tactless remarks, but what I just don't get is the way that some remarks which most people seem to agree are very tactless get passed over by EBD whilst other remarks which seem mild by comparison are treated as a big deal. Maybe it's just that EBD liked to label people as having particular faults and virtues and so everything that Con said was labelled as tactless and everything that Mary-Lou said was labelled as tactful!

My next door neighbour is the eldest of three sisters, labelled by their father: The clever one; The pretty one; The baby. She was the 'clever one' but said she longed, just once, to be introduced as the pretty one!

'The baby' really gets the raw end of the deal there - at least the eldest gets called clever, even if she doesn't get called pretty, but the baby is known purely for being the youngest by the sound of it, with absolutely nothing going for her at all!

On the subject of fertility problems, I have always had the policy of not questioning even close friends about their plans/hopes for a family. As far as I am concerned, it's nothing to do with anyone but the couple themselves. If they choose to confide in me (and some do), that's different. I would never betray that confidence to anyone else.

Millie1986 wrote:

Back on tactlessness - given that lots of people have written about their own problems with being tactless, no one seems to have written about how they deal with others being tactless to them! Do you point out to the offender exactly why your feelings have been hurt?

There's a good description of what 'love' is, too - it 'doesn't take offense'. If that can be done, it won't matter what anyone says to me - I won't be offended. I have to admit that RL is challenging on this front though - it's not necessarily easy not to be offended by others' hurtful comments!

When Joey meets Janie Lucy, she's apparently so overcome with shock that Janie is plain whereas her half-sisters are beautiful that she can't stop staring!

I think there was a change in "book etiquette" at some point: at one stage, it was considered bad form for a heroine to have both good looks and an interesting personality.

... people just constantly seem to be harping on about how pretty or plain or fat or thin everyone else is!

Wanda von Glück, once Wanda von Eschenau, the loveliest girl who had ever been at the Chalet School, which had always had a good share of pretty girls....

‘I remember Marie von Eschenau,’ remarked Hilary as she took her seat beside Gillian Linton. ‘I always thought her the loveliest thing I ever saw. I simply don’t believe that even her own sister could beat her!’

‘Doubting Thomas!’ mocked Gillian. ‘Why, Wanda might have stepped out of a fairytale. It’s to be hoped little Maria Ileana takes after her. Friedel von Glück is quite passable, but he’s no beauty.’

‘Wanda always was the beauty in our family,’ said Paula who was behind them. ‘It is strange that we should be so plain.’

‘Can’t say I’ve ever noticed particularly,’ said Hilary. ‘Oh, no one would stop to stare at you, but you’re no worse than anyone else.’

Plus, as young girls, 'plain-but-distinctive' Anne Shirley and Emily Starr regret their plainness - Anne obsesses about her freckles and tries to dye her hair, and Emily cuts herself a fringe to disguise her high forehead - but Joey never seems to give it a thought, despite the high level of beauty surrounding her in her own dormitory! She only checks for tidiness. The only time we ever hear her talk about her looks, really, is when her hair is driving her mad, and then it's not about what hairstyle would suit her, just how to keep it tidy.

I've seen adult Joey's attractiveness in her sympathy/empathy, though, rather than her looks. I don't think she is physically attractive, even as an adult; even though she no longer gets described in negative terms, EBD still doesn't go so far as to call her pretty or handsome.

Nightwing wrote:

She refers quite often to Joey's beautiful eyes and her delicate, sensitive features. If she's not conventionally beautiful I definitely get the impression that she is regarded as very attractive.

was tall, with black hair cut in a straight fringe across broad brows, and knotted up in big, plaited whorls over either ear. Her eyes were black, too, and she had a pale, clear skin. Anything less like the Josephine Bettany the pair had imagined it would have been hard to find, and they stared at her, as Jo complained afterwards, “as if I were an animal escaped from the zoo.”

I only just noticed that, in the illustrations of Camp Mystery (Oxenham), the heroine is depicted with earphones.

Perhaps EBD leaves it to the opionion of the reader as to whether or not is unconventionally beautiful.

I don't know why, but I always have trouble envisaging the triplets as beautiful - characterful yes, but beautiful doesn't fit in with the idea of them I first conjured up. Actually, I'm sure they are described somewhere as having "Joey's features" so how can they be stunningly lovely when she's so plain?

Even Mary-Lou has to end up with curls and that dreadful Joan Baker of course has FALSE CURLS!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:	What's wrong with tactlessness?
Tactlessness in the CS is regarded as a problem which can be overcome. Joey Bettany is the most famous tactless person in the series, but she far from being alone in her frankness. Now, I have a problem with this. I am not tactful. I do any, or all, of the following: Say the wrong thing to the wrong person. The wrong thing to the right person. Say the wrong thing at the wrong time. Say the right thing at the wrong time. Say the right thing to the wrong person. Say the wrong thing at the right time ... well, you get the idea. If you imagine a person, the time, and the thing to say being either 'right' or 'wrong', I have the talent of combining these in ways that are tactless. No doubt if I was a mathmetician I could work out for you the number of ways in which I am able to be tactess. I have tried to overcome this fault - oh, how I have tried! All to no avail - in fact, when I have 'taken time to think' (the apparently ceertain way to avoid tactlessness, according to Elinor) it still comes out wrong. And it sounds even worse and causes even more havoc, because then people have understood that I have taken time to think, and what I have subsequently said sounds worse because it sounds like I mean it even more ... I hope you understand my quandry. Well, 'faults' such as temper, lateness, selfishness and others can be worked at to be overcome, given the right environment, support, help and understanding (not an exhaustive list). But because tactlessness seems to be (well, in me, at least) partly because one simpy can't think of the right thing to say at the right time and to which person, I don't know how it can be overcome. Do others think of it in the same way that other 'faults' are considered? So, say, if I was a habitual temper-loser, is that equivalent to being tacless? I do - believe me, I really do - understand what it must be like to be on the other end, to be the one who receives the tacless comment, and I would love not to give the offence I so often do. But I do think that other faults - temper, being late, lying, or whatever, are often deliberate in their intention. Tactlessness, in my experience, has absolutely no intention to hurt or upset. Elinor is quite definite that tactlessness is a fault, and one which can be overcome. What are your thoughts about this?

Author:	Lesley [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
My first thought is re Con Maynard - she is forever being castigated for tactlessness - yet i don't see it as that. As a matter of fact i think she is extremely insightful and sees things far more deeply than any of her peers - including her sister Len. Oh and the second - why was Betty Langdon accused of tactlessness when all she did was point out to her fellow Sixth Former that she should moderate her tones and not allow the Juniors to hear her?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Lesley wrote: My first thought is re Con Maynard - she is forever being castigated for tactlessness - yet i don't see it as that. As a matter of fact i think she is extremely insightful and sees things far more deeply than any of her peers - including her sister Len. Oh and the second - why was Betty Langdon accused of tactlessness when all she did was point out to her fellow Sixth Former that she should moderate her tones and not allow the Juniors to hear her? Those were the two examples that came to my mind, too, yet Con never seems particularly tactless to me, and Betty was only saying the same kind of thing that CS girls say to each other all the time, as the occasion requires, in precisely the same way they usually say it - she can't be held responsible for Margot's hair-trgger temper, and I think it's outrageous that she is, in part! I think tactlessness is time- and culture-specific, too. The Middle East tends to be very invested in face-saving, so no one will ever actually say 'no' to you on a serious matter, because it's seen as embarrassing for both parties. If someone has to refuse you something, the 'tactful' ME thing to do is just to stop returning calls etc. Maddening, of course, for a Westerner, but that's tact there. Guests also need to remember not to admire things, because manners require your host to present you with it! I also think that several things EBD consistently presents as completely normal in the CS books would be considered remarkably tactless by most of us today - things like casual references to another girl's weight or looks or stupidity that don't seem to be intended to be cruel - it just doesn't seem to occur to the speaker that anyone might find the remarks hurtful - or some of Joey's references to 'real families' around a friend with (possibly past) fertility problems etc. These seem to me way worse than anything thoughtful Con comes out with! Julianne, could you give an example of the kinds of situations in which you feel you say the wrong thing?

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
No - I can't!!!! Something specific might come to mind, but at the moment nothing does. However, I can give an example of something I might say: if I'm asked 'what do you think about my ... ', knowing that I don't think much about whatever it is, I'll be completely inable to think of something, quickly, that is tactful. So I'll say the truth, like: 'I don't really like it ... '. Or worse. Friends who have been friends for years are never offended, or if they are a bit upset we can talk about it and get things straight again. But my family have a habit of saying 'that was so tactless! Why did you say that?' if they hear me responding to a starnger who has asked me about something. Coming up is a kind of example. I went to a vineyard in Dorking the other day - largest vineyard in UK, apparently, and delightful. We looked around the shop and they had some cheese samples to taste. The shop was empty apart from my mother, aunt, and me, and the two men at the checkout, with the cheese. I love cheese and enjoy availing myself of fun things like tastings, so I honed in on the cheese (which was delicious), and I noticed my mother make a fast exit from the shop. I tasted the cheese and admired it and one of the men (who obviously thought that here was a prospective customer, and, given the bad weather and few customers, that would be good for business) said that this was the last peice of cheese so on and so forth. In order for him not to waste time on chatting up a non-customer (me), I laughed and said that it was delicious, but that I was 'completely stuffed' and had absolutely no money. The man chuckled, I said that the vineyard was lovely, and we would be visiting again. I arrived back at the car where my family were all waiting for me. 'What did you say?' was the question. I told them. Laughter. 'I told you that's what she would say!' More laughter. I would rather tell people the truth up front than allow them to continue along a path that's not going to get them anywhere. And I do think that a lot of 'tactlessness' is bald truth-telling. And I just don't have the skill to sugar the truth. There is truth in the old adage (are adages always old?) 'you catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar', and I can see that telling the truth with sweetness rather than bluntness (yes, I know, sweetness and bluntness aren't oppostis, but you get what I mean!) can be more advantageous to both the speaker and the listener, but how on earth does one do it? And why is it put on a par with other 'faults' when there is no intention to hurt?

Author:	Lesley [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I don't think you were tactless at all. If the cheese had been terrible and you said as much then you would be tactless - instead of saying that it was fine for instance. But you told him the cheese was excellent and also admitted you had no money to buy - perfectly reasonable behaviour.

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What's wrong with tactlessness? http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7958

Author:	sealpuppy [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I agree, that wasn't tactless at all. However, I think the trick really is EBD's 'stop and think' but it's what you have to think about that's important. In other words, if you said to someone: 'Does my bum look big in this?' and the answer is: 'Good grief, I've never seen anything like it' you can see that you would hate this, if applied to you. I've a vague idea EBD refers to Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby (from the WaterBabies) but I might have dreamed that. So the EBD argument is: would I be hurt if someone said that to me. However, for a world-class tactless performance, how about this? Our art group had an exibition last year and one of the artists (not known for tact) sat down for a cuppa with other members and a visitor. 'Oh, I thought you were the new woman who has just joined? The very fat one?' (Visitor) 'Er, no.' Artist: 'She's really, really fat, absolutely huge and I thought you were her.' (Visitor, defensively) 'Er, I do try to keep an eye on my weight.' Artist: 'You look just like her and my goodness, she's enormously fat.' (Eruption of coughing and interruptions by horrified art group members). Now that's tactlessness above and beyond the bounds of decency!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
You are all being very sweet, and I don't want this to become about me, but I just want to say: If the cheese had been terrible, I would have said 'it's horrible!' Not with malice aforethought but becuase I wouldn't be able to think of anything else to say. And brings me to sealpuppy's comments - I can think all I like. It simply doesn't help ... That poor visitor - I have to say that I do know when to stop after I've put my foot in it, at least. Although ... when I worked in India, in a refugee camp, I did ask a lady when her baby was due, and yes, of course, she wasn't pregnant ... However. It get back to the Chalet School. Do you think that generally tactlessness, which is viewed by Elinor as a fault, is to be viewed as are other faults? The examples of Con and Betty have been raised - are there any others, and do we agree that they are tactless, or are they simply more insightful (as Leslie suggested Con was)? What examples of said 'tactlessness' are we given? And do we agree with the assessment of the comments as bing 'tactless'?

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I don't see that there was anything wrong in what you said about the cheese, Julieanne! I think that some of the remarks made by CS people, whilst they might not have been said with any deliberate intention to cause hurt, are things which the speakers really should have realised were inappropriate. Mollie Maynard wasn't just tactful but really very rude when she turned up at the reunion and told Bernhilda that she'd put on a load of weight and Grizel that she looked scraggy. Cornelia, who started the conversation by saying that Mollie'd put on weight, at least acknowledged that she'd been rude, but neither EBD nor Mollie seemed to think that there was anything wrong with Mollie's remarks. & yet Con and Betty are always being called tactless when they never really say anything inappropriate! I don't find some of Jo's "jokes" very funny either, but maybe that's just me. I just don't see what's funny about Jo going on at Simone, who'd finally had another child after years of waiting, about how she's got 4 sons so it's not a big deal that Simone's got one, or telling Madge and Jem that it's a shame that Ailie isn't a boy. EBD never seems to find anything wrong with Jo's constant harping on about how everyone should have a big family, without ever stopping to consider that maybe the person she's talking to wanted children but couldn't have them because they never met Mr Right or because of fertility problems (I think it's incredibly rude of her to tell Samaris that her parents should have had more children when she knows nothing about the Davies family). However - is it in War/Goes To It? - we see Con Stewart, whose wedding's had to be postponed because of the war, getting upset and walking out of the room when Jo talks about her home being wherever Jack and the triplets are, and on that one occasion I don't think Jo really didn't anything wrong: Con couldn't really expect everyone to avoid making any mention of their husbands or boyfriends or the subject of marriage. The point of all that is that I don't understand what EBD's definition of tactlessness was! It seems to be OK to say things which it should be quite obvious could upset people, whilst other people are labelled as being tactless without seeming to say anything tactless at all. Someone once asked me when the baby was due. I'm hypersensitive about my weight, and I'm also very upset that I'm never going to be able to have children, so it was really horrible, but I did accept that the person didn't mean to upset me. I wasn't even that fat at the time: I've weighed a good 6 stone more than I did then!!

Author:	Abi [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
EBD seems to have rather an odd idea of what constitutes 'tact', born, I suspect, out of an inability to see anything bad in her favourite characters! As Alison says, there are lots of occasions when people do say things that could be quite hurtful, probably without intending to, but when she gives an actual example it never seems that bad. One of my work colleagues is chronically tactless. She's painfully aware of it, but just seems completely unable to phrase things nicely (for want of a better term...), and white lies are just impossible for her. People who don't know her tend to find this quite intimidating but I find it really refreshing because there's never any question of her being dishonest or just saying something to be nice. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that sometimes tact can be overrated. Though in a lot of situations it's a good thing, as my colleague has managed to upset quite a lot of people!

Author:	Cel [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I agree with you, Julianne, that people who are tactless generally don't mean any harm (and are often horrified when they realise what they've said), but I think it's because of the potential to cause real hurt that EBD feels it's something that must be addressed. But it certainly doesn't compare to lots of the other 'besetting sins', particularly bookend-flinging...

Author:	sealpuppy [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
One of my grandsons has mild aspergers and (aged 5) attends one session a week in his mainstream school. It's all about 'emotional literacy', essentially about learning to be tactful, ie telling social 'white' lies (among other things). So, he will announce he has to go to the Something Club and say: 'I love going there' then he'll glare and say: 'I hate it really, but I'm just pretending'. He has also been sweet and charming to his class teacher ie something like:'I love you, Mrs W'. But will then glower and say: 'I hate you really'. To which her response is usually a laugh and a 'see if I care'. And that shuts him up because he doesn't really hate her anyway. He's learning to live with other people and it's fascinating to watch. He's a very clever child but emotionally is a year or so behind the average, so what 'normal' children learn automatically in social situations around four, ie to temper their comments, he is having to be taught. I think it's all about: Would you like it if someone said that to you.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
sealpuppy wrote: I think it's all about: Would you like it if someone said that to you. Yes, yes, and yes! Some of the most tactless people I know - and I'm defining tactless as "unintentionally hurting other people" are also very thin-skinned, and are very easily upset by others' comments. I can't quite think of the right word for it, but it's almost like an inability to tell what way the wind's blowing. EBD seems to think (sometimes!) that a lack of tact is the same as being blunt, but I don't see that they are. From what I've heard about her own personality, perhaps this is a distinction that she herself struggled with?

Author:	sealpuppy [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Nightwing wrote: sealpuppy wrote: I think it's all about: Would you like it if someone said that to you. Yes, yes, and yes! Some of the most tactless people I know - and I'm defining tactless as "unintentionally hurting other people" are also very thin-skinned, and are very easily upset by others' comments. And yes, yes, and yes to that too, Nightwing! Scrolling back to the monumentally tactless woman I cite earlier, she is amazingly quick to take umbrage if someone says something tactless to her. I have to say that Julianne's examples don't sound in the same league and are what I would certainly think of as 'blunt' rather than downright tactless!

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Getting back to tactlessness in charcters, there's a certain extent where I can see why Betty in the bookend incident and Con at Zermatt as being tactless. Betty is already aware that Margot is grumpier than usual as she was the one who spoke to Len about. Len is talking to Margot about this, with Betty and Alicia in the room, the two who were fully aware, Margot was snapping more than usual, so it probably would have been better to let Len deal with it, or more tactful to let Len deal with it and then the incident of the book throwing wouldn't have happened. Zermatt is the same. Con is fully aware of what is going on with Margot and saying what she said about the clock, it became not so much what she said but where she said it. It caused an argument on the streets of Zermatt. Not Con's fault but but was the trigger with someone who was struggling to control her temper. I don't think anyone said anything remotely tactless and I don't think Len's tactfulness of let's shield Margot at all costs is better behaviour, but I think it falls more into the basket of discretion is the better part of valour and Margot would have been told off about not reporting her toothache and what she was doing or at least having her behaviour curbed in Theodora/at Zermatt. I do think tact is one of those difficult things. I tend to be bluntly honest mainly cos I'm hopeless at guessing what people mean if they aren't direct or say what they mean, which may be construed as tactless, but is simply like your situation over the cheese, having some consideration for the other person's time/life. I also think that's what okay to say to someone who is a close friend may not always be okay to say to someone who isn't. Joey's comments to Simone re: having a child, I think is an example of that. Joey is at first complimentary, but then she turns it into a joke more because she's probably feeling uncomfortable or finding it hard to deal with all the emotions Simone finally having a second baby brings up. I can accept that explaination, just. I do think all her comments to total strangers about it is extremely rude and tactless and shows a complete lack of tact and understanding that someone may not be as fertile as what Joey so obviously is

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Now ... this might be a RL example ... I want to say something now, but it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie. I want to respond to a post above but don't want to highlight what the person has said is a problem for them. And, believe me, I know what it's like to struggle with weight. I am slim now, but that's no credit to me - it happened after illness, and is the only thing that makes me glad I have been ill. I have to add that when I asked the lady in India when her baby was due, it was her shape rather than her overall appearance. If you understand me. I am a midwife, after all ... Actually, perhaps then it's better that I don't practice anymore ...

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Just to get away from the subject of weight, isn't there an incident in one of the war books (I think it's cut out of the pb) in which Stacie's cousin Ned is reported missing in action and Joey says that he's bound to be fine because he's always been lucky. If she'd said gently that missing didn't necessarily mean dead and that Stacie shouldn't lose hope because there was a good chance that he'd turn up as a POW or in hospital, that might've comforted Stacie, which was presumably what she intended to do, but saying it so flippantly just sounded quite heartless, and I think that's often a problem - sometimes the sentiment's all right but the way that people put things isn't.

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Alison H wrote: ...isn't there an incident in one of the war books (I think it's cut out of the pb) in which Stacie's cousin Ned is reported missing in action and Joey says that he's bound to be fine because he's always been lucky. If she'd said gently that missing didn't necessarily mean dead and that Stacie shouldn't lose hope because there was a good chance that he'd turn up as a POW or in hospital, that might've comforted Stacie, which was presumably what she intended to do, but saying it so flippantly just sounded quite heartless, and I think that's often a problem - sometimes the sentiment's all right but the way that people put things isn't. I think it's in Lavender, and to be fair to Joey, she's telling this news to friends (having received the news in a letter) so Stacie isn't there to be upset by the comment...

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Fiona Mc wrote: Getting back to tactlessness in charcters, there's a certain extent where I can see why Betty in the bookend incident and Con at Zermatt as being tactless. Betty is already aware that Margot is grumpier than usual as she was the one who spoke to Len about. Len is talking to Margot about this, with Betty and Alicia in the room, the two who were fully aware, Margot was snapping more than usual, so it probably would have been better to let Len deal with it, or more tactful to let Len deal with it and then the incident of the book throwing wouldn't have happened. Zermatt is the same. Con is fully aware of what is going on with Margot and saying what she said about the clock, it became not so much what she said but where she said it. It caused an argument on the streets of Zermatt. Not Con's fault but but was the trigger with someone who was struggling to control her temper. Neither situation, in my view, demonstrate a lack of tact. As someone has already pointed out, the CS girls tend to warn each other about the consequences of their behaviour in the way Betty warns Margot. There are many examples of Joey, in particular, taking the skin off girls like Joyce Linton who is arguably as volatile as Margot. If she had retaliated in a similar way the outcome would have been very different. As for Con, like a lot of others, I can't think of any occasion when she desplays the sort of tactlessness that EBD labels her with. The incident in Zermatt puzzles me exceedingly, what was so wrong about commenting on the price of the clock? I regard the following as tactless without its being in anyway malicious. Myself and my 16 year old daughter recently decided to join a gym. I'd been a member a few years back, so when we visited the gym and were told that someone would be along shortly to give us a guided tour of the facilities I decided to tell them to cut the tour and just gives us the best price available. A young girl in her early twenties came along and sat us down to discuss the different offers available. She gave a price for Maggie, and then proceeded to give me the price for Seniors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I am in my early 50's, within shouting distance of that category, but I sure as hell didn't want to be told I looked everyday and more of my age. Also, it embarrassed my daughter who, naturally, doesn't want to be saddled at 16 with a senior citizen for a mother. I thought for a moment and then I said the following: "You have just lost a customer. I am close to the age group you mentioned, but it would be so much nicer if you gave me the two prices and allowed meto make the choice. For future reference, even if you see someone approaching on a zimmer frame, have the cop on notto assumptions that may offend." The poor girl was mortified, but proceeded to dig herself further into the hole by saying that she usually does that but hadn't in my case. I decided at that point to let it go.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Very restrained, MJKB! I still hate myself for the very worst thing I've ever done in the way of tactlessness. Spotted a fellow mum from the kids' school after the summer holidays. 'Hello,' I breezed, knowing she had been heavily pregnant at the end of term. 'What did you have then?' As the words issued from my mouth I took in her red rimmed eyes and gaunt face and she gasped: 'I had a little boy but he died'. And then she ran away. Even though it's 30 years ago, I still feel awful, specially as the same thing once happened to me earlier. An acquaintance hailed me with: 'When's the baby due then?' at the same moment as she clocked the flat stomach and the haunted face. I too ran away. But I think EBD is talking about people being tactless and not realising that they have been - rather than being mortified beyond words when they realise what they've said.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Emma A wrote: Alison H wrote: ...isn't there an incident in one of the war books (I think it's cut out of the pb) in which Stacie's cousin Ned is reported missing in action and Joey says that he's bound to be fine because he's always been lucky. I think it's in Lavender, and to be fair to Joey, she's telling this news to friends (having received the news in a letter) so Stacie isn't there to be upset by the comment... I know it isn't to Stacie, so it's not directly 'tactless' as such, but to be honest I've always thought it was a deeply insensitive thing for Joey to say: Quote: “I haven’t heard from Stacie for a week or two. But it would never surprise me to hear that he’d turned up,” said Jo casually, as she sat down in a wicker chair, and the rest followed her example and found seats. “The Trevanion boys seem to have as many lives as any cat.' It just seems like a flippant and fairly un-CS thing to say in the middle of a war, when the cousin of a friend is possibly dead - and when Joey's own husband was declared missing only months earlier. If you were being generous, you could argue she's trying to keep people's spirits up, but her distinct casualness and the way she skips on to complaining about everyone present being 'thick' because they don't guess that the CS old girl who's coming to stay with her is Polly Heriot (how on earth were they supposed to know?), seem to me to make light of a situation that, crucially, no one made light of when it happened to Joey shortly beforehand. Imagine a CS mistress or acquaintance saying after Jack's disappearance 'Oh, he'll probably show up - Jack Maynard was always lucky. Now, what was I saying about the latest Middles' prank?' It would, rightly, look pretty heartless. The flippancy may of course be Joey's way of coping with her own bad memories, but - and this comes into EBD's slightly odd take on what is tactlessness - she's clearly not not thinking about the people she's speaking to. In fact, one person who hears her is Elizabeth Arnett, who repeats what Joey said later on to Hilda (after Ned Trevanion shows up safe in Switzerland) while saying wistfully that she wished her brother was safe in Zurich, rather than a POW in Germany. It doesn't take much imagination or tact to realise that when you make flip remarks about missing men in the middle of a war, you're potentially calling up anxieties in other people who are dealing with worries and horrors, as clearly happened here. But I think EBD's real blind spot on tact and tactlessness is that whether or not she seems to regard something as tactless seems to depend who's speaking and to whom. Schoolgirl Joey, for instance, seems to get away with being moody and snappy to others quite often, with anyone being allowed to resent it by EBD. But the one time poor Anne Seymour tells Joey sharply to be quiet because she's trying to work, Joey stalks out in high dudgeon, and Anne is told she ought not to have spoken to her in that way! Likewise, it's not possible to imagine anyone being as flippant about Jack's disappearance as Joey is allowed to be about Ned's.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Do we know if Elinor struggled with being tactful, or not? Or if she had been on the receiving end of tactlessness that had hurt her?

Author:	Rachelj [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
sealpuppy wrote: Very restrained, MJKB! I still hate myself for the very worst thing I've ever done in the way of tactlessness. How awful for you both. I find myself so anxious about finding myself in such a situation, though, that I avoid asking anyone how they are and so they all probably think what a snotty uncaring cow I am, when actually I'm just totally paranoid about causing offence or saying the wrong thing, or appearing nosy. Social situations are really not my forte...

Author:	Lisa [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Rachelj wrote: I find myself so anxious about finding myself in such a situation, though, that I avoid asking anyone how they are and so they all probably think what a snotty uncaring cow I am, when actually I'm just totally paranoid about causing offence or saying the wrong thing, or appearing nosy. Me too!! Then I spend too long endlessly apologising for it. Mind you, I have been on the end of more than one tactless comment (especially regarding children - or the lack of them) and I think I've become hypersensitive

Author:	bonnie [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Quote: Rachelj wrote: I find myself so anxious about finding myself in such a situation, though, that I avoid asking anyone how they are and so they all probably think what a snotty uncaring cow I am, when actually I'm just totally paranoid about causing offence or saying the wrong thing, or appearing nosy. Me too!! Then I spend too long endlessly apologising for it. Oh me too, me too! I am incapable of small talk and just can't chatter in the way that many of my friends can. I am also naturally a bit tactless and probably more than a little peculiar in conversation - I tend to get over-enthusiastic about whatever-I'm-enthusiastic-about-at-the-moment and go on and on about it, and I don't notice people glazing over or edging away from me until it becomes really obvious... I get around this now by barely saying anything, especially to strangers, which of course then gives the impression that I'm aloof and antisocial and don't care at all, which is emphatically not the case. Anyhoo, back on topic, I think it strange that a character like Joey, who was supposed to be so very sensitive (and indeed was, at least in the Austria books at first) and who used to be so interested in others should become so rude and (dare I say it?) self-absorbed in later life. Surely it ought to work the other way around, tact and delicacy being something that one generally picks up through experience?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
MJKB wrote: Fiona Mc wrote: Getting back to tactlessness in charcters, there's a certain extent where I can see why Betty in the bookend incident and Con at Zermatt as being tactless. Betty is already aware that Margot is grumpier than usual as she was the one who spoke to Len about. Len is talking to Margot about this, with Betty and Alicia in the room, the two who were fully aware, Margot was snapping more than usual, so it probably would have been better to let Len deal with it, or more tactful to let Len deal with it and then the incident of the book throwing wouldn't have happened. Zermatt is the same. Con is fully aware of what is going on with Margot and saying what she said about the clock, it became not so much what she said but where she said it. It caused an argument on the streets of Zermatt. Not Con's fault but but was the trigger with someone who was struggling to control her temper. Neither situation, in my view, demonstrate a lack of tact. As someone has already pointed out, the CS girls tend to warn each other about the consequences of their behaviour in the way Betty warns Margot. As I had said further on it wasn't tactlessness but perhaps a case of where keeping the peace might have been better for concerned. I don't think either was tactless and neither said anything wrong, but if you have a raging bull coming towards you, isn't it better to get out of its way rather than stand and be attcked. As I had said Fiona Mc wrote: I don't think anyone said anything remotely tactless and I don't think Len's tactfulness of let's shield Margot at all costs is better behaviour, but I think it falls more into the basket of discretion is the better part of valour I don't see why you seem to think that I said either were tactless, I only said that a Frieda Mensch moment might have been better at that particular time. (Frieda being the person who seemed best to keep the peace without ever shielding someone from being nasty, the way Len does)

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Fiona Mc wrote: As I had said further on it wasn't tactlessness but perhaps a case of where keeping the peace might have been better for concerned. I don't think either was tactless and neither said anything wrong, but if you have a raging bull coming towards you, isn't it better to get out of its way rather than stand and be attcked. I agree, only, as I think I said somewhere up the thread, it seems to come down to Major Character vs Minor Character force majeure some of the time! Yes, there's an argument to be made that 'tactless' Betty should have kept the peace, Frieda-like, because she knows about Margot's hair-trigger temper. Yet there's also the reverse argument to be made, surely, that hot-tempered Margot should realise perfectly well that 'tactless' Betty doesn't mean any harm and isn't actually trying to escalate a row, so she shouldn't react as she does...? But whose 'responsibility' is it to read whose character and make the requisite allowances, in any interaction? Here the implication seems to be that it's Betty's, more than Margot's, just as back in Joey's schooldays, the implication seems to be that Anne Seymour needs to make allowances for Joey, but not vice versa...? Only in Margot's case, the complicating factor of her 'devil' seems to involve everyone colluding in the idea that she has somehow a 'harder row to hoe' than other girls - and that some of her behaviour is out of her own control - while Betty's tactlessness is seen as her own fault. I'd agree, too, that there's a crucial distinction between Frieda Mensch's peace-making interventions, and Len's. I'm not entirely sure EBD grasps the difference, though. Sometimes I think the single most interesting thing about discussing the CS the way we do on the CBB is that we're probably considerably more clued-in on changes and character alterations and arcs in the series as a whole than EBD, who doesn't seem to have gone in for re-reading her own earlier work often!

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Yes, there's an argument to be made that 'tactless' Betty should have kept the peace, Frieda-like, because she knows about Margot's hair-trigger temper. Yet there's also the reverse argument to be made, surely, that hot-tempered Margot should realise perfectly well that 'tactless' Betty doesn't mean any harm and isn't actually trying to escalate a row, so she shouldn't react as she does...? But whose 'responsibility' is it to read whose character and make the requisite allowances, in any interaction? Here the implication seems to be that it's Betty's, more than Margot's, just as back in Joey's schooldays, the implication seems to be that Anne Seymour needs to make allowances for Joey, but not vice versa...? The fault I think is completely Margots'. She is totally responsible for her own behaviour. She needs to learn to control her own temper regardless of anyone else. However, if some had been snapping at everyone for the whole week, which Margot had been and Betty noticed and you mentioned it to someone in order for them to get to the bottom of it, which Betty did by talking about it with Len, I would have left it well and truly alone rather than get into the firing line and I would have trusted Len to get to the bottom of it, the way she was. I do think this situation is completely different to the Joey and Anne situation as Anne was struggling to concentrate for her exams and Joey was OTT about it all. There was no warning signs she would behave so childishly or lose her temper like that, so Anne had no reason to suspect or even think, 'better keep a low profile,' the way Betty might have with Margot or Con with Margot I actually think Len's fault is far more insidious than Con or Betty's supposed tactlessness. Len will protect her own even to the point she blamed Betty for Margot throwing a bookend at her, rather than putting the blame firmly where it belonged. And she does this time and time again with Margot and then again with Jack. I wonder if Len can actually see people for the way they are than believing the best about them all the time. Frieda doesn't do this so much as distract people from saying the wrong thing which gives them time to pull themselves together and blurt out what is uppermost in their mind.

Author:	emma t [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I love this post, Julieanne! I am awful at times; have been known to blurt things out I should not, but do not mean anything by it, and luckily my colleagues and friends know me now it's a classic case of think before you speak, but at 32 I may never learn... how did Joey over come it - she raised a family of 11, and seems to sail through life and people forgive her for not having much tact; maybe it was because they knew her, and knew that nothing was vindictive.

Author:	Cel [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I do think Con's exclamation in Zermatt was tactless (although I agree with others here that Betty and Anne were both relatively blameless). Although what she said about the clock was true and could have been a reasonable remark to make in another context, blurting it out like that was guaranteed to inflame a situation that was already volatile. That's not to exonerate Margot at all, but Con did make a bad situation much worse.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
You know - I am comforted by the number of people who struggle with using tact, on this thread. Thank you for sharing this!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
emma t wrote: I love this post, Julieanne! I am awful at times; have been known to blurt things out I should not, but do not mean anything by it, and luckily my colleagues and friends know me now it's a classic case of think before you speak, but at 32 I may never learn... how did Joey over come it - she raised a family of 11, and seems to sail through life and people forgive her for not having much tact; maybe it was because they knew her, and knew that nothing was vindictive. Joey is an interesting example. She's described as liable to tactlessness as a schoolgirl (though I would have said that her issue is more that she can dish it out but not take it, as in the Anne Seymour telling her to be quiet episode!) but, in fact, she's far more tactless as an adult, though EBD seems to have stopped describing her as such. And no one ever calls her on it, which is my main problem with the way it's written about. I'd probably find her 'breezy' statements a lot funnier if someone occasionally said 'Oh, for God's sake, don't tell Joey Colonel Black's here to investigate the lights during black-out! She's bound to show up at some unsuitable moment dripping with babies, annoy him and then blab about Gertrud Beck!' Which is pretty much exactly what she does. Maybe it's significant that the one time someone does call her on it - it's Simone giving her an 'indignant look', that time Joey makes her jolly-but-not-that funny-to-Simone crack about how Simone needs to take that self-satisfied look off her face for having produced a son, and she herself has four - Joey actually goes into a much more tactful and conciliating mode, admiring the baby properly and stopping going on about herself. It's a much nicer, more generous side of Joey, where she clearly realises she didn't strike the right tone, and changes her approach immediately. There, for once, she's thinking more about Simone's feelings than about her own liking to produce these large, joky, often rather boastful statements which tend to be more about her than whoever she's talking to. I know some people object that you can get away with a certain amount of joshing between old friends, but my point is that Simone clearly isn't at all amused here, despite knowing Joey and Joey's sense of humour for half a lifetime. As why should she be? She's thrilled at finally having a healthy male baby, after what sound like significant fertility problems, and at a time when sons were still prized, and she doesn't need even a dear friend joking about something she clearly doesn't find that funny. I say good for Simone, and that if more people adopted that approach with Joey, she might be a bit less tactless as an adult! In fact - to those people on this thread who say they suffer from tactlessness - do you know you've said something tactless if someone doesn't point it out to you? Would you prefer to have someone point out to you that you've hurt their feelings, rather than go on being unconscious of it?

Author:	Mia [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I know it seems to be a common theory on the board, but considering when the books were written I would be really surprised if EBD intended the juvenile reader to infer that Simone had fertility problems from the large gap in their family. I personally think it's far more likely Simone and André didn't have the financial means to extend their family until André had worked his way up in his uncle's firm and eventually had come into the inheritance. Therefore it wouldn't necessarily have been such an emotive issue for Joey to joke about with one of her best friends once the reason for the lack of children was removed.

Author:	claire [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
I think EBD does say Simone had been worrying Theresa was going to be an only child, which does imply they had been trying for a long time

Author:	claire [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's wrong with tactlessness?
In changes Quote: I was thrilled to the last toenail when Andre wrote to tell me that they had a son at last! I know both he and Simone had begun to fear that Tessa was to be an only child and that hadn’t been their idea at all.”