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Sybil and her cousins
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Author:  Maeve [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Sybil and her cousins
Do we know when Daisy and Primula went to live with the Maynards instead of at the Russells? I've been wondering about their living arrangements after reading this (lengthy - sorry!) scene in Lavender, which I think is up there with Auntie's letter and Jack's apparent death as being one of the more moving scenes in the books. It's when Jo has dyed herself green and isn't seeing anyone.

Quote:
A sudden idea came into Daisy's head. “Rob! You don't think Jo's got bored with us, now that she has her own babies, do you?”
“Talk sense! She's had the Triplets for two years and four months, and she never showed the faintest signs of being bored with us at any time.”
“I know. But-you remember that awful time in the autumn when - when-“
“When we were afraid Jack was dead? Yes; I know. But what has that to do with it?”
“Well, it made a difference in Jo. She has changed, Rob - you know she has! I just wondered if¬ perhaps – she - well, had grown away from us a bit.”
Robin shook her head. “She's changed; you're right there. But Jo will never grow away from us.... No; whatever has happened, it isn't that, so don't worry about it. Why, Daisy, darling!” For Daisy had suddenly laid her head down in the prefect's lap, and begun to sob. “Daisy! Don't cry, dear! What can be wrong with you?”
“It's just - it's such a relief to hear you say that,” sniffed Daisy. “It came into my head a few days ago, and I've been thinking about it ever since. If such a thing were to happen, Rob, I don't know what I should do. Jo is so - so special, somehow. Auntie Madge is a darling; but - well, she has her own children, and dozens of other things to think about.”
“So has Jo, if you come to that,” said Robin.
“I know. But the Triplets aren't like Sybil. Sybs hates having cousins so much older than she is living with them. And then she's always been such a picture, and you know what idiots some folk are! When she was at the Sonnalpe the crowds of visitors that used to say - and quite loudly, too, so that she couldn't help hearing! - "Oh, what a lovely child!" Or, "Just look at that exquisite little face!" The only wonder is that she isn't more of a trial than she is. And, of course, she was baby for so long. Josette isn't four till the summer, and Sybs is five years older.”
“I know,” agreed Robin. “There's a lot in what you say. All the same, Sybil can be unbearably rude sometimes, I know. She's got to learn to get over her vanity and her jealousy. But Madge loves you and Prim very dearly, Daisy. And I know she loves me, too.”
“Yes; but because of Sybs, she daren't show it¬ or not much. I was jolly thankful when it was arranged that Prim and I were to live with Jo. I can't tell you how sorry I've been for Bride and Peggy, many a time. And Jo knows what Sybil is, and told me once that that was one reason why she had us with her.

Poor Daisy :( She apparently is very glad that she has Joey, but reading this scene made me wonder about Jem and Madge. Did Jem ever feel guilty that his sister's children weren't living with him? I don't mean to be arguing that biological closeness triumphs everything, but it seems a bit odd to me that it's never really discussed/mentioned openly.

And is Madge really such putty in Sybil's hands that she daren't show affection to her nieces and nephews? The Russell nursery sounds pretty unhappy from Daisy's description.
Author:  cruelladevil [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 
I never liked Sybil particularly, but I did feel sorry for her. Her only good qualities seem to be her appearance and her needlework, and more often than not the fact that she's beautiful is portrayed as a negative. I wish we'd seen a different outcome: for example, Daisy becoming an older sister figure for Sybil in the way Joey was for the Robin. (Lol, I'm really dreaming now, aren't I?)

And I definitely agree, the Russell's nursery did not seem like a happy place at all, and I do wonder why. Joey's family seems to introduce one new member after anothe, and it's portrayed in a very positive light. What was different about the Russell's?
Author:  Emma A [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Perhaps the Triplets were used to sharing Joey's time and love from birth, and therefore could cope with Daisy and Primula much more easily (of course, they are considerably younger than Sybil, and probably not old enough to resent an older cousin).

It's an understandable reaction from Sybil - before the Russells left Austria, and thus before Jo married and had her own children, Sybil was stuck amongst numerous competitors for her mother's affection: David and Josette (who at least were her own siblings), together with cousins Rix, Peggy, Bride, Jackie, Daisy and Primula. That's nine children, not to mention Joey herself! All those children, who aren't in a natural family order, with too many at the same age: Sybil must have thought she came a long way down in the family pecking order, and tried to assert herself against her older cousins in the only way she knew how.

I do think Madge handled it badly. Perhaps she had special time with her own children, to reassure them that they were her children and she loved them dearly; but then she wouldn't have wanted to treat her nieces and nephews differently, since they were parentless (or effectively so). I think she was in something of a cleft stick!

Joey's adoptees in the later books are all (apart from Marie Claire) in their teens or nearly so, and able to adapt to a family where they at least get more attention and care than they did in their previous homes.
Author:  JB [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I think you might have something there with the words "the Russell's nursery" and "Joey's family". The Russell's nursery does seem more remote from the rest of the household with Rosa caring for the children, whereas Joey doesn't have help with her children when they're small (although Anna gives a hand along with looking after the house). Instead, we see them very much as part of a tight-knit family with Joey, Robin and Daisy.

Also, Joey's adoptees tend to be older. When the triplets are small, she brings older children into the family, eg Fiona and Flora, who are at school for part of the time.

Madge has a frightening number of small children under her care in the last years at the Sonnalpe - David, Sybil, Peggy, Rix, Bride, Jackie and Primula - none of whom I think are old enough for school.
Author:  cruelladevil [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
JB wrote:
I think you might have something there with the words "the Russell's nursery" and "Joey's family".


Lol, I didn't even think about it when I was writing but you're right! Rather telling, isn't it? :lol:
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Although you do later on at Freudesheim get the triplets offering some initial (mostly between themselves, admittedly) resistance to Joey taking Melanie Lucas for the holidays (as well as the Richardsons), before they are essentially guilt-tripped into agreeing.

And I've always thought that the bit of A Future CS Girl when Melanie is desperately jealous and resentful of Ruey's arrival is in some way a displaced way of expressing some of the feelings of lack of importance EBD won't allow any of the Maynard girls to have when Joey turns into Mia Farrow and keeps acquiring other children compulsively. I suppose I imagine Madge giving the young Sybil some version of those Little Talks where Joey guilt-trips Len or Mary-Lou into 'taking on' some problem girl: 'Come on, Sybs, Rix, Peggy, Bride, Jackie, Daisy and Primula haven't got any other home - you need to play nicely with them, you're the lucky one' etc etc. No wonder the poor child kept insisting on being the biological offspring of Madge and Jem - when she was little, it mustn't have been particularly obvious!

I agree the Russell nursery sounds like a zoo with various domination and belonging rivalries running side by side.
Author:  Emma A [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass wrote:
I agree the Russell nursery sounds like a zoo with various domination and belonging rivalries running side by side.

Yes, we have Sybil's insistence that she and David belong, whereas the rest are only cousins; there is Rix's masterful behaviour - he dominates Peggy and is the eldest of the Bettany cousins, so is probably used to ruling the roost; David seems happy to go along with everyone else; Peggy is under Master Rix's thumb (and probably everyone else's as well, except when they criticise her darling twin); Daisy and Primula are sensitive types who've recently lost their father and brothers in tragic circumstances, and whose mother isn't in great health either.

I got the impression that some of Sybil's more "spoiled" behaviour was down to Rix's overbearing nature, and unable, as a girl*, to make a sufficient retort, she reverted to using the "you don't belong" jibe. Not explaining this very well, I fear...

*EBD seems to make all her boys (perhaps excluding David) rather domineering over or superior to their sisters/female cousins.
Author:  Cat C [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
*EBD seems to make all her boys (perhaps excluding David) rather domineering over or superior to their sisters/female cousins.


Hmmmm, I think that's more the case in the Russell nursary than elsewhere - and also earlier in the series than later (Maeve and Maurice seem much more 'equal' for example) - also when the sister(s) in question is/are older than their brother(s) they seem to be the bossy/superior ones - thinking of the triplets, but also Clem and Tony Barrass.

Perhaps it's an effect of a Madge+Jem upbringing?
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Felix and Felicity also - some rather sick-inducing bits in one of the later books, poss A Future, with Felix as thrusting young man-to-be, and Felicity girlishly heartbroken by his desire to be with the older boys. Always reminds me (as do Rix and Peggy as small children) of Daisy and Demi in Good Wives, which has the toddler Daisy masochistically adoring her twin brother, who takes a lordly approach to her.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I do actually think that Daisy was better off living with Jo. She was the eldest of the children at the Russells' by quite a long way; there was no-one who could be a companion for her, and she was competing for Madge's attention with all the younger ones. She might also, like Len, have ended up having a lot of responsibility dumped on her

Robin was just a couple of years older than Daisy, and Jo was still young enough to be more of a big sister than an aunt. Jo would also benefit from having both Robin and Daisy with her; being a very young wife and mother, and with Jack away, she'd have been very lonely otherwise. And I think Jo did a good job of seeing both Robin and Daisy through their teenage years.

But I think it was handled badly, and it's a pity Daisy was parted from Primula, although it probably would have been too much to ask of Jo to cope with a small child when she had her own three. Robin and Daisy were old enough to wash and dress themselves, look after their own clothes, etc. etc.
Author:  Miriam [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Daisy seems to be living with the Maynards in Geurnsey. She probably came with Robin a few weeks after Jo and Jack got married. There's no mention of Primula there, and it seems that either she was living at the Russels or that EBD forgot that she existed. :roll:

The first time that she is mentioned as living at the Maynards is at the biggining of 'Highland Twins', when they had been living in England for a couple of years. Probably Diasy came with Robin initially to be company for her, so that Robin wouldn't be alone with aq newly married couple - a potentially awkward situation of three being a crowd.

Daisy would have come to England with Madge, or maybe with the school. Either way Jo was ill when she first arrived, so Daisy would have gone to the Round House, to keep the house quiet for her. She does seem to be regarded as a fixture at the Maynards though, and sometime between 'At War' and 'Highland Twins' the situation was probably formalized, and Primula came to join her.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Daisy came to England with the school and so did Primula IIRC.

There's something in Exile about Daisy and Robin being day girls and walking/cycling to school and back together - maybe Madge's house was too far from the school for Daisy to've got there and back every day, or maybe for safety reasons it was considered better for the two of them to walk/cycle together? Primula wasn't mentioned at that point, though - but then EBD does tend to forget about the poor girl for years on end.

Madge had 7 young family members to look after (or for Rosa to look after!) - Peggy and Rix, then a 3 year age gap, then David, Bride and Primula, then a 2 year age gap, then Jackie and Sybil.

It does seem odd that Daisy and Primula were the ones who were pushed out, though. I can see that it made more sense for Robin and Daisy to live with Jo than for some of the little ones to live with her, but legally Jem would have been their guardian after Margot died, and legally he and Madge were Robin's guardians as well.

And Jo have to make such nasty remarks about Sybil, who in Lavender would only have been about 9, to Daisy? EBD really did have an issue with Sybil, didn't she?
Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:17 am ]
Post subject: 
cruelladevil wrote:
I never liked Sybil particularly, but I did feel sorry for her. Her only good qualities seem to be her appearance and her needlework.


I don't think that's entirely true. Sybil is shown to be not particularly book-smart, but a hard worker, and I think the accident with Josette not only goes a long way to "unspoil" but also makes her very protective of Josette - doesn't Josette say as much herself at some point? We also see Sybil in Jo to the Rescue as a lot more responsible and a much pleasanter girl than she had been earlier. It's interesting to note, though, that she never makes Head Girl, even though both her elder cousins have done so before her.

I also think the accident did a lot of good in the terms of her relationship with her aunt - up until this point, Jo had disliked (and possibly resented) Sybil, but afterwards we see them in a much closer relationship, with Jo acting a lot more sympathetically.

For her part, I wonder if Madge was raising Sybil the same way that she had raised Jo?

Back to Daisy - I always saw a bit of a older/younger sister relationship with her and Rob, and I think Daisy cherished a bit of hero-worship for Jo, as the wonderful person who had helped her when she was stranded in the Tirol. Jo, too, seems to feel the connection, naming her daughter after Daisy's mother and establishing the Margot Venables Award.

Primula was young enough to be absorbed into the Russell nursery; Daisy wasn't, and perhaps Madge and Jem thought she'd be happier with Jo.
Author:  jennifer [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I feel sorry for both Madge and Sybil.

Madge goes from being a single woman caring for her 12 year old sister. Within a few years she marries and is still managing much of the school business, doing 'wife of the San director' duties, and is responsible for Joey, who may be in her late teens, but still needs to be watched after, the Robin, who is perpetually frail and needs special care, Peggy, Rix, Bride and Jackie, who are her brother's children, Daisy and Primula, as their mother is ill (and Primula is another frail child), and her own David and Sybil. She goes from one kid to ten in about four years. Plus, she also has a few school girls in her charge at any time - there's Eustacia for a year as she recovers, Joyce and Gillian for a while, Biddy O'Ryan and so on.

Sending Robin, Daisy and Primula to Joey makes sense - Robin and Daisy are older, and don't need nursery care as such, and you don't want to split up sibling groups. Joey wouldn't be able to handle the four Bettany kids at that point.

I feel sorry for Sybil, because although she's a brat, she's lumped in the nursery with all these other kids, several of whom are frail and need attention (Robin, Primula), and several of whom are rather overbearing (Rix, Joey). The Bettanys have a family abroad with whom they have a special relationship, Sybil has to share with everyone. I can see her being shoved to the background unless someone was commenting on how pretty she was - being the beautiful one, and the 'real' daughter are her only distinctions. She's also totally blamed for her bratliness and being spoiled - it can't possible by Madge's parenting, as she's perfect, so it's all Sybil's bad character. Most other bad kids at school are clearly so because of poor parenting, not intrinsic character flaws, so it's particularly striking.

Aside from Marie-Claire, Joey only takes in school aged kids, so she never has the kind of nursery that Madge does - Daisy, Primula, Robin, The MacDonalds, the Richardsons, Erica are all away at school all day.
Author:  Lesley [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:
Madge had 7 young family members to look after (or for Rosa to look after!) - Peggy and Rix, then a 3 year age gap, then David, Bride and Primula, then a 2 year age gap, then Jackie and Sybil.


I don't know about the others but isn't there only a year between Peggy/Rix and Bride?
Author:  Carys [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject: 
There certainly is in later books but whether there was intially I can't remember. I thought that there was less than three years between Peggy & Rix and David.
Author:  Emma A [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
The twins arrive at the Sonnalpe in CS and Jo, and are about two years old at that time (at least, that's what I assumed for my alternative drabble). David is a baby, IIRC, in that book (willing to be corrected if my recollection is wrong!). Not sure whether Bride had been born by then.
Author:  CBW [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject: 
I've always wondered if Joey was a little jealous of Sybil. The others are all adopted in one way or another but Sybil is the closest girl to Madge and loudly claims her rights.

Somehow Joey's all knowing understanding never extends to Sybil and she never seems to give her the benefit of the doubt on anything which seems strange when you look at how she deals with outsiders
Author:  Caroline [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Bride is present and correct by Ch 16 of Head Girl, when we get a long letter from Mollie Bettany talking about Rix and Peggy being imps of wickedness and Baby being christened Bridget Mary.

I think this is the Easter holidays; Madge must be 7+ months pregnant with David at this point (he's born before half term in the summer term, and there's no suggestion he's early, as there is with Sybil), and Mollie's letter says Bride is 3 weeks old. So, I think that means that Bride and David are approx. the same age, give or take a couple of months. Sybil is born during - erm - Lintons, making her pretty much 2 years younger than Bride and slightly less than 2 years younger than David. She really is in a gap on her own.

The Bettanys come home that summer for six months - they're at the Tiernsee at the start of Rivals. And in Eustacia Jo tells the prefects that Dick and Mollie are going back to India but leaving Peggy and Rix, who are now 2 (in the end, they leave Bride as well).

Thinking about it, EBD stretches that furlough way beyond the six month mark - Dick and Mollie are back at the Sonnalpe (after spending time in Ireland) when the girls are in Fulpmes at half term - late February, perhaps? And they've been away from India since the previous June.

OK, I'll stop rambling now :D
Author:  Carys [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Do they leave Bride at the same time as Peggy and Rix? I thought they took her back to India with them and left her when they visited again in Jo Returns, along with Jackie who they had intended to take back with them but decided not to in the end,
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:16 am ]
Post subject: 
The ages vary during the series :lol: , but Jackie Bettany was born at Christmas and Sybil the following (I think) March, so they are quite close in age.

It would be interesting to see them having a conversation in later years about how Sybil felt neglected because there were so many other kids in the house and Jackie was traumatised because his parents left him when he was a tiny baby and didn't see him again (although admittedly it wasn't their fault that the War disrupted travel) until he was ... what, about 9?

David also gets fussed over by all the CS girls and staff when he is a baby, but by the time Sybil comes along there are a load of other kids at Die Rosen, plus Gisela's eldest children, so no-one seems to fuss over Sybil the same way.
Author:  JackieP [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Carys wrote:
Do they leave Bride at the same time as Peggy and Rix? I thought they took her back to India with them and left her when they visited again in Jo Returns, along with Jackie who they had intended to take back with them but decided not to in the end,


I think you're right there, Carys.. I know I don't remember any mention of Bride being there in Camp...

JackieP
Author:  cruelladevil [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
The entire family situation must have worsened when the Russell's left for Canada, surely? There were already such major divisions... I can't imagine what would have compelled Madge and Jem to leave!
Author:  Maeve [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alison H said:
Quote:
David also gets fussed over by all the CS girls and staff when he is a baby, but by the time Sybil comes along there are a load of other kids at Die Rosen, plus Gisela's eldest children, so no-one seems to fuss over Sybil the same way.


Actually, I was just reading New Chalet School in which the Balbini twins kidnap Sybil and was struck by how much she is the 'Baby' of the hour, very much loved and fussed over -- I was really struck the discrepancy between this baby Sybil and the Sybil described in Lavender. In fact, the whole Russell family/household setup in New Chalet School seems really lovely -- the interactions between Jem and Joey are especially nice. So it seems sad that some years later Daisy feels sad for Peggy and Bride having to live with the Russells.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:
It would be interesting to see them having a conversation in later years about how Sybil felt neglected because there were so many other kids in the house and Jackie was traumatised because his parents left him when he was a tiny baby and didn't see him again (although admittedly it wasn't their fault that the War disrupted travel) until he was ... what, about 9?


Sends bunny treats!
Author:  jennifer [ Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:56 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm wondering if things didn't get worse during the move to England and associated events?

In Austria we see some divisions - Rix is lordly and contemptuous of girls (which is seen as totally natural), Peggy is the peacemaker, Sybil has a temper, Robin is adulated - but over all the nursery and the Russell home seem pretty okay.

Then in quick succession we have the move to Austria, with all the political trauma, relocating the San, Margot Venables death and the need to comfort her children, Josette's birth, and restarting the school. I imagine the family took a bit of a financial hit at first, and they do lose some of their loyal staff - Andre and Marie come with them, but in Austria they also had a nurse and mother's help.

So for Sybil, she gets ignored more than normal, because of all this other stuff she doesn't understand. Daisy and Primula are being fussed over, and there's a new baby that is taking her mother's attention away from her, and there's less help in the nursery.

By my calculations we have (approximately)

Peggy and Rix: Age X
Bride, David, : Age X-1
Primula: Age X-2
Jackie, Sybil: Age X-3
Josette: Age X-6

So they are all pretty close in age, and Sybil is youngest until Josette arrives.
Author:  Caroline [ Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
JackieP wrote:
Carys wrote:
Do they leave Bride at the same time as Peggy and Rix? I thought they took her back to India with them and left her when they visited again in Jo Returns, along with Jackie who they had intended to take back with them but decided not to in the end,


I think you're right there, Carys.. I know I don't remember any mention of Bride being there in Camp...

JackieP


Hmmm - yes, I think you're right. My mistake. Perhaps I'm mixing this furlough up with the next one, where they say they aren't leaving Jackie and then they do (Jo Returns, as you say, Carys)...
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