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CS characters needing psychoanalysis/therapy

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#1: CS characters needing psychoanalysis/therapy Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:35 pm
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Entirely flippant topic - no offence at all intended to anyone who is/has been in therapy or analysis of any kind, or who are themselves therapists.

Which CS characters are most in need of psychoanalysis and why? What would a psychoanalyst make of some of the central CS characters? Suggest a diagnosis of a CS character!

Does Joey have Serious Issues with Detachment? Is the fact that she's forever banging on about being forever a CS girl indicative of some form of Peter Pan Syndrome? Does Mary-Lou have problems with respecting other people's boundaries? Has Matey got Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in her precision re. exactly how CS girls make their beds? Is Sybil a narcissist? Is Con alarmingly detached from real life? Do Deira O'Hagan and Margot Maynard need anger management therapy? Is Margot's devil a subsidiary personality?

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:41 pm
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Certainly Joey, who seems wholly unable to detach herself from the school - substitute family after never knowing her parents?
Maybe Reg, who seems rather obsessive about Len.
Margot because of her worrying talk about her devil.
The Russells could have done with family therapy.
Tom Gay's father, who seems to have issues about females Confused

.

Many of the characters who suffer the most - e.g. the Maranis, Juliet - seem to cope quite well considering, whereas others can't cope with much lesser problems.

#3: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:56 am
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Joey as a candidate for narcissistic personality disorder, plus the aforementioned inability to detach from her former school's daily life.

If I were a parent, I'd be seeking some advice for a child who quite seriously blamed all of her bad deeds on 'her devil', or who, at age seventeen seriously injures a classmate in a rage.

Joey and Jack could probably stand for some parenting classes, both to help with the issue of labelling children at such a young age, and in how to deal with high spirited, active mischievous children. They do very well with the sober, responsible, unusually mature from a young age kids (Len and Steve) and okay with the quiet, dreamy, lost in their own world ones (Con and Charles), but are totally helpless with Margot and Mike, blaming everything on their flawed personalities.

I'd have Odette Mercier screened for depression, rather than just homesickness.

Mary-Lou would probably need some help after leaving school. Someone (Jennie?) wrote an excellent drabble about her problems in university.

Sybil will probably have some issues later in life that will need sorting out, too, after being spoiled rotten for eight years, and then slammed with guilt that totally changes her personality, making her ashamed of her good looks and quiet, retiring and deferential, compared to the outgoing, rather demanding girl she was previously.

#4: Author: Laura V, Location: Perth, Australia

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:44 pm
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Professor Richardson! Need I say more? Laughing

Grizel for being completely messed up by her upbringing
Thekla just to see if there really is a nice person hidden inside!

#5: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:22 pm
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Alison H wrote:

Many of the characters who suffer the most - e.g. the Maranis, Juliet - seem to cope quite well considering, whereas others can't cope with much lesser problems.

Hmm, you're absolutely right. Good point. I suppose it goes back to EBD's quite fixed notions about character - some are strong, some are sensitive and susceptible, some are definitely flawed. (Though I always think Joey copes unexpectedly well when she thinks Jack is dead, for a woman who needs to be sedated when she accidentally falls into a packing crate, and whose children are prepared to try to cope themselves with appendicitis rather than wake her...)

Though it occurred to me that while EBD adopts the deliberately 'boyish' schoolgirl mode of her CS girls not wanting to discuss 'deeper' or more personal matters, she does seem to believe in some version of the talking cure, but with either a special girl like OOAOML, Joey or another authority figure. So many of her miscreants take their first step towards becoming a real CS girl when they break down and talk (and invariably cry buckets) to Hilda or Jo. No Freudian couch, but they are invariably sent to bed afterwards. Though maybe these little encounters are set up more like a form of confession of 'sins' with the Head as priest - EBD also has Joey hearing her young children's confessions nightly and being forgiven...

#6: Author: KatS, Location: Vancouver

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:57 am
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I'd love to see a case study of Joey a la Dora. Jack as a subsitute Jem? I could definitely see Jem as a Herr K. All those children as a desperate attempt to possess the phallus? And what would Freud make of Dr. Hunter?

I don't think Joey could be described as hysteric, but her extreme emotional fragility, detached relationship with her family (at least with the non-trips), random adoption of teenagers (boys, no less), and periods of physical strength (I'm thinking of Joey and Co) alternating with being laid up in bed, would definitely (even without any reference to her relationship with the Chalet School) make me think that psychoanalysts would have a field day.

#7: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:14 am
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Sunglass wrote:

Alison H wrote:

Many of the characters who suffer the most - e.g. the Maranis, Juliet - seem to cope quite well considering, whereas others can't cope with much lesser problems.

Hmm, you're absolutely right. Good point. I suppose it goes back to EBD's quite fixed notions about character - some are strong, some are sensitive and susceptible, some are definitely flawed.

I think that actually has a strong basis in reality. Some people cope well - they handle every disaster life throws at them, and come out swinging. Others are more fragile, and get easily derailed by more minor issues. Some of it is upbringing and training, but some is personality as well.

I actually read a fascinating article a while ago, about a study which identified a genetic component to resilience. People who had two copies of the gene did, on average, significantly better when weathering major upsets (we're talking things like abusive homes, war and refugee experiences, extreme poverty). People with one were in the middle, and people with no copies of the gene were more likely to be permanently traumatized, and unable to recover. In this case, though, it only had an effect on really major, life altering trauma, rather than day to day tragedy.

#8: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:47 pm
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KatS wrote:

I'd love to see a case study of Joey a la Dora. Jack as a subsitute Jem? I could definitely see Jem as a Herr K. All those children as a desperate attempt to possess the phallus? And what would Freud make of Dr. Hunter?

What a great idea. He would no doubt claim that Joey projected a fantasy of pursuit onto the wonderfully-named Dr Hunter in a displacement of her own jealousy at Jem's taking away of Madge, and imprisoning her in the bourgeois home. And, by squinting, you can certainly see elements of the Dora case study (the conspiracy of men around Dora). I think Jem and Jack are both Herr K figures in being disturbing to the young teenage girl - Jem married Madge when Joey is around 14, and Jack must have been encountering Joey from around that age - and also in Jem and Jack's patriarchal, repressive care for Joey's health, which involves sedation and dampening down her responses to things. Come to think of it, you could reduce most of the male/female relationships in the CS to Upright Man of Science Diagnosing Recumbent Fragile Female...

And isn't one of Dora's hysterical symptoms coughing?! And it all takes place in Austria! QED!

#9: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:29 am
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jennifer wrote:

I actually read a fascinating article a while ago, about a study which identified a genetic component to resilience. People who had two copies of the gene did, on average, significantly better when weathering major upsets (we're talking things like abusive homes, war and refugee experiences, extreme poverty). People with one were in the middle, and people with no copies of the gene were more likely to be permanently traumatized, and unable to recover. In this case, though, it only had an effect on really major, life altering trauma, rather than day to day tragedy.

I would love to read that article cos that would certainly explain why some survive the most horrific things and others turn to drugs or alcohol to cope

#10: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:22 am
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The article is here

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/magazine/30abuse.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

You need to register with the NY Times, but it's free and they don't spam you.

#11: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:48 am
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Thanks Jennifer

#12: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:16 am
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Margot Maynard could use anger management therapy.
Odette Mercies - (very delayed) separation anxiety and possibly depresssion.
Sybil Russell - body image issues as an adult
Jo as an adult - codependency

This thread reminds me of a book I bought recently called Tigger on the Couch subtitled The Neuroses, Psychoses, Disorders and Maladies of our Favourite Childhood Characters.

#13: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:02 pm
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Quote:

Margot Maynard could use anger management therapy.

I think it's Jack who needs the therapy. He has a serious problem if he doesn't dare go near his seven year old son for fear of what he might do to him.

When fourteen year old Len, on her own initiative, thinks it's necessary to get her younger siblings out of her father's way, and Jo, Madge and Jem feel a need to conspire to keep Mike out of Jack's way for weeks, there is clearly something very wrong.

If Jack had ever learned to deal with his anger, he might have been more help to Margot. As it is, she's getting the message that if you're in a temper, it's someone else's fault for making you angry, and everyone will run around trying to appease you.

#14: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:12 pm
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JayB wrote:

Quote:

Margot Maynard could use anger management therapy.

Good diagnosis! Clearly family therapy needed for the Maynards. But can you imagine anyone succeeding in making Joey shut up about the glory days of Tyrol etc for long enough to hear anything being said to her. (The champion Butter-In being butted in upon!) Let alone how Jack, who addresses Hilda Annersley and Rosalie Dene as 'you girls' at one point, might deal with a female therapist...

And because I happened to see a few minutes of 'Supernanny' last night - what would she make of the Maynard menage? (As people have been discussing on the Margot and Stephen Venables thread, the 'mother covering up offspring's bad behaviour from authoritarian husband' recurs in EBD...)

#15: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:15 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

And because I happened to see a few minutes of 'Supernanny' last night - what would she make of the Maynard menage? (As people have been discussing on the Margot and Stephen Venables thread, the 'mother covering up offspring's bad behaviour from authoritarian husband' recurs in EBD...)

Oh what a marvellous drabble that would be! Supernanny visits Freudesheim... Laughing

#16: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:33 pm
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I hope someone writes it and that Supernanny makes Jack sit on the Naughty Step.

#17: Author: LizzieC, Location: Canterbury, UK

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:10 pm
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*lays a carpet of bunny food and wanders off in the other direction whistling innocently* halo

#18: Author: Ela, Location: London Village

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:35 pm
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After re-reading Jennie's drabbles about the Russells, I think Josette and Sybil would probably need therapy to get over being forced to accompany Madge to Australia, and missing out on their chosen higher education courses.

Actually, I think Naomi would be a good candidate - at least for counselling, or something, that wouldn't be religious and would help her come to terms with the fact that she wouldn't be able to dance. I always resent, on her behalf, OOAO's talking to her about God, as though it's only Naomi's unfaith that is making her so bitter.

Oh, and Stacie could have done with some help after her parents died - but in the 1920s and 30s, no-one did. In fact, some considered psycho-analysis to be a swindle, and quite indecent - why not speak to one's priest or lawyer, who had known one for years, rather than some jumped-up psychiatrist! (This latter view stated in one of Dornford Yates' books, in the mouth of Berry Pleydell).

#19: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:19 pm
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Ela wrote:

In fact, some considered psycho-analysis to be a swindle, and quite indecent - why not speak to one's priest or lawyer, who had known one for years, rather than some jumped-up psychiatrist!

I'm trying to imagine applying this approach to the CS, and concluding that (a) lawyers only make the most fleeting appearances offstage (b) there's a remarkable paucity of priests - only the occasional visiting monk from whatever that island near St Briavel's was called, Frieda Mensch's ancient great-uncle the Bishop, and Mr Eastley, who had problems enough of his own to warrant therapy and (c) that leaves only those perennial EBD male authority figures, the doctors. And it's statistically probable that any CS girl or mistress who went to 'have a chat' with a doctor would end up married to him. God knows what you do if you are married to one, and still want a therapeutic chat!

I suppose we're back to the informal therapy of Jo, Mary-Lou and the occasional bout of tears in Miss Annersley's study, followed by a dose, hot milk and a lie down in your cubicle.

#20: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:43 pm
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They didn't even have the Joey/Mary-Lou option in the early days - Simone was just told to buck up when she was upset. Probably a realistic response from someone of her own age (Joey) at the time, but not much consolation!

You'd probably expect someone who really needed help to go to a sympathetic teacher, but that just doesn't seem to happen. People only do the weeping in the study bit after things have blown up and they've been summoned to Hilda's presence, e.g. Joan Baker in Problem. You might've expected form mistresses to notice that someone was unhappy/not settling in well, but if they did then they didn't seem to do much about it Sad

#21: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:32 pm
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Quote:

You might've expected form mistresses to notice that someone was unhappy/not settling in well, but if they did then they didn't seem to do much about it

When Tom was fretting over Daisy and not eating, Matey noticed, but decided she was reacting to the change of air, and put her to bed for a couple of days. Matey also noticed when Evelyn had fallen out with her form in Challenge, and made Nancy do something about it (although that should surely have been a matter for their form mistress, not the Head).

Usually when the girls fall out among themselves the mistresses say they can't interfere with their friendships.

#22: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:54 am
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JayB wrote:

I found that bit odd - Matey dresses down Nancy like a disobedient child for not personally (as headmistress) stepping in and resolving a dispute in a senior form - not the form mistress, but the head.

In pretty much any other case of a girl not settling in or having a conflict with her form the resolving is handled by someone in the form, or Joey/Mary-Lou/Len or one of the prefects steps in. Think of the worse cases than Evelyn - Eustacia, Lavender and Joan, for example, two of whom run away from school because of their unhappiness. In Eustacia's case, no-one does anything for her. For Lavender, it's a combination of a chat with Joey and in one case a prefect advising her form-mates. In Joan's case, only Mary-Lou helps, (although she ends up being part of the problem).

#23: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:02 am
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EBD was not consistent there - I cannot think of any occasion when Matey spoke to any other Head in such a way. I think it was EBD's way of showing that Nancy was so inexperienced - which is somewhat unfair as she shouldn't have expected that she get involved anyway. Perhaps the fact that it was a Senior class made all the difference?

#24: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:41 am
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I put it down to Nancy being an Old Girl. But a squabble between the girls was never normally a matter for the Head - even the much more serious Jack-Jane affair never went that far.

But I think Matey herself is possibly a candidate for therapy!

#25: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:07 pm
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It'd be interesting to know how Matey, Hilda, Nell and some of the others who'd been at the school since they were in their 20s coped when they retired. Unless the school bought a load of almshouses on the Gornetz Platz so that they could spend the rest of their days living nearby!

#26: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:55 pm
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I can't see Matey ever retiring!

If she ever did, I expect Joey and Jack would give her rooms at Freudesheim. She'd spend her time over at the School trying to tell everyone how much better things were done in her day - but everyone would run and hide when they saw her coming!

#27: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:48 pm
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I'd worry more about Matey's tendency to dose anyone at the drop of a hat. Feeling out of sorts - here's some drugs. Had a shock - here's some drugs. Get wet - here's some drugs. Emotionally overwrought - here's some drugs.

#28: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:19 pm
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I suspect that Matey's 'doses' were often laxatives. She seems to dole them out after noticing poor appetite on the part of the victim - sorry, patient, looking at her tongue, and asking a few pointed questions.

Yet she was prepared to let Joyce Linton suffer prolonged sickness rather than give her a tot of brandy which might have fixed it, because she didn't like giving brandy to children!

#29: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:29 pm
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The dosing really is rather worrying! I appreciate that the early books were written at a time when it was common for people of all social classes to take unprescribed medication, but, in Jo of, Madge, who had no medical training whatsoever, "dosed" every single girl ... because it was spring Rolling Eyes

#30: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:01 pm
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Quote:

In Jo of, Madge, who had no medical training whatsoever, "dosed" every single girl ... because it was spring Rolling Eyes

But wouldn't a "spring tonic" have been considered normal practice? Part of normal household management, hardly anything you'd go to a doctor about. Same as mothers as late as the 50s and 60s being brainwashed that "regularity" was absolutely vital to their children's health.

At least I was spared the "spring tonic," since my mother thought it rather old-fashioned. Vitamin pills year round had become the fashion....

#31: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:14 pm
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We got cod-liver oil and malt.

#32: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:19 am
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We got cod-liver oil until my Mom actually tasted it. Then we didn't get it anymore.

It's actually interesting to track the history of various quack nostrums and home remedies, from spring doses and cod liver oil, to vitamins every morning, to St John's Wort and Eccinacea

#33: Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: Second star to the right

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:05 pm
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Laura V wrote:

Professor Richardson! Need I say more? Laughing

I think the Prof was Aspergers-y rather than in need of psychoanalysis - or something along the autistic spectrum anyway.

#34: Author: Bethannie, Location: West Midlands, England

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:38 pm
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I am autistic and feel that one of my favourite characters - Simone, shows signs of being high-functioning autistic/Aspergers.

She doesn't seem to understand the social rules of friendship, demanding too much of Joey.
She completely misunderstands what would make Joey like her - and as a result cuts off her hair.
She enjoys maths - maybe she finds numbers easier to cope with than people?

I don't think Prof Richardson was Aspie - just a badly drawn charicature of a genius! (Sorry EBD - but the space-flight thing neber really worked as a credible plot line!)

#35: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:45 pm
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That's really interesting, Bethannie, I hadn't thought of Simone like that before. *wanders off to ponder*

#36: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:02 pm
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She wasn't like that as an adult though, was she?

#37: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:58 am
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Simone changes a lot but we don't really see the "change" process - presumably it was due to the combination of her time at the Sorbonne, just growing up generally, and the worry about André's safety during the war and Mlle's Lepattre's illness and the general issues of wartime. It's a shame that we don't "see" it, because she's a complex character and it would have been interesting to read more about her.

#38: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:17 am
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Alison H wrote:

It'd be interesting to know how Matey, Hilda, Nell and some of the others who'd been at the school since they were in their 20s coped when they retired. Unless the school bought a load of almshouses on the Gornetz Platz so that they could spend the rest of their days living nearby!

That would be an interesting drabble!

#39: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:20 pm
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jennifer wrote:

We got cod-liver oil until my Mom actually tasted it. Then we didn't get it anymore.

It's actually interesting to track the history of various quack nostrums and home remedies, from spring doses and cod liver oil, to vitamins every morning, to St John's Wort and Eccinacea

I hit the vitamin pill age - huge things that I used to joke to mum looked like suppositories. Mum was also absolutely obsessed with fibre in the diet... Bran Flakes *ugh*.

(Interestingly enough, St John's Wort isn't a quack remedy - it's passed into mainstream for mild/moderate depression, after it was trialled and found to work. )

#40: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:29 pm
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You can only get St John's Wort on prescription in Ireland at any rate.

#41: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:45 pm
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I think Simone's problem was a combination of loneliness and homesickness, that's why she was possessive with Jo. Though it was all right for Jo to be posessive with the Robin. What a surprise.

#42: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:09 pm
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On the other hand Jo didn't welcome Simone's possessiveness, whereas she and Robin did have a special relationship. Jo didn't expect the Robin not to have friends of her own age, for example.

#43: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:12 pm
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Oh, I think Simone's character change, although it's never explicitly presented, is easy enough to account for, even though it's mostly off stage. She's a homesick child with poor English (and possibly no German either?) plunged into a new school in a foreign country, and is rejected in her (admittedly tiresome) bid to be friends with the most popular girl and moral centre of the school, and over time her edges are rubbed off. She has a pretty tough time after she leaves school, the poorest, cleverest and canniest of the Quartette, with an impecunious family to support and help, a beloved relative who dies young, and becomes the only one to hold down a conventional career and put off marriage slightly longer than her friends - to someone who immediately goes off to war and hardly sees his children for the first few years of their life. I see the Simone we meet in Jo to the Rescue, presented as quiet, self-controlled, somewhat lacking in joie de vivre, as the slightly traumatised result of a fairly challenging life to date, probably made worse by the other three's performance of multiple-babied domestic bliss, and their evident relief when she marries.

I think she could certainly have used some counselling support during her schooldays, rather than being labelled an over-emotional crybaby. And I frankly take her side in the early Tyrol days (despite my personal desire to smack Joey hard) - Joey is set up as a schoolgirl ideal, and is explicitly designed to be adored by all comers by EBD - so why crack down on Simone for developing a massive adoration for her?

#44: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:36 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

Joey is set up as a schoolgirl ideal, and is explicitly designed to be adored by all comers by EBD - so why crack down on Simone for developing a massive adoration for her?

For me it's the exclusivity that Simone seems to want that is the problem, rather than the adoration of Joey.

#45: Author: KatS, Location: Vancouver

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:16 pm
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If Joey were older than Simone, the adoration side relationship would be fairly normal - crushes are notorious in GO lit, but even when I was at school, we had fits of hero-worship for various sixth formers. Joey definitely comes across as older, or at least more mature, than Simone in the very early books, so the dynmaic might not be that unusual. And if it wasn't for the adoration, the exclusivity would also be normal - again, I definitely think the "best-friends" syndrome is much more common than EBD portrays. It's just the combination of the two that comes across as strange.

#46: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:28 pm
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There are remarkably few pairs of "best friends" at the CS - even people like Mary-Lou and Verity (if you can class such an unequal relationship as a normal "best friend" thing) are part of a bigger gang.

There are gangs, trios, quartettes, quintettes and just general friendships, but very few of the major characters are part of an exclusive "best friend" pairing. Margot and Emerence are one exception. And Bride and Elfie possibly, but they're both also very friendly with Tom, Nancy, Julie etc. Two of OOAO's gang - Christine and Catriona? - are referred to as "The Inseparables" but really they're only fringe characters.

#47: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:13 am
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I don't see Simone as Aspergers, because she grows out of her problems. I see her more as a bit immature, desperately homesick, socially awkward and a bit clingy. She, Grizel and Joey are also the three first students, but Joey and Grizel have much more prominent roles than she does, and are much more popular.

I do know people who are happiest when the have a personal bestest friend, and feel awkward in large social groups. If Simone had found someone who wanted that sort of intimate friendship, I think she'd have been much happier. As it was, she admired Joey, who was of the type who wants to be the centre of attention of a large crowd at all times.

The differences between Simone and the rest of the Quartette are pretty striking, aren't they. The others are from well to do families, with no expectation that they need to work after leaving school - they all, in fact, return home to help and get married within a few years to an appropriate older man. None of them are particularly academically inclined. Frieda is generally conscientious, Marie is not at all academically inclined, Joey is good at a few things, but not at all ambitious, and slacks on things she dislikes. Simone, on the other hand, is from a poor family. She's bright and ambitious and hard working, and studies extra hard to get into a good university. She knows she needs to support herself, and possibly part of her family.

Then, when she marries she and her husband have to struggle financially for a number of years as he works in a low level position. She's actively pitied by the others for not having a 'real' family (Joey in particular seems to be oblivious to what having six or seven children in quick succession would mean to a family that is barely making ends meet, and has no family to fall back on, financially).

The main difference, looking back, between Joey and Simone is that Simone grows out of her earlier faults, while Joey positively revels in hers, and regards them as virtues.

#48: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:34 pm
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I've always been delighted Simone eventually got her chateau and the family jewels, even if her attitude of needing to wait until Joey saw both in order to decide what was to be done with them struck me as suggesting Simone was still terribly dependent on Joey's superior judgement. Maybe she still needed some therapy as an adult to encourage her not to submit all decisions to the High Priestess of Opinion-Formers!

#49: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:05 pm
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Nah, maybe it was just easier to let Joey think her opinion mattered than to put up with all the whinging for years about how she wasn't consulted...

#50: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:17 pm
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I think she just wanted to share all the fun of the planning with Jo. They were friends after all, and she'd had the fun of the surprise.

#51: Author: Bethannie, Location: West Midlands, England

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:37 pm
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I'm not that sure that Simone's character does change as she gets older. I think that she finds a man who understands and loves her. She still has relationship difficulties, and problems with making decisions - classic Aspergers.

I don't think it helps thta EBD never really seemed as fond of Simone as of the rest of the quartette.

#52: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:30 pm
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I agree that the problem with the early Jo/Simone relationship was that Simone wanted it to be exclusive, and became upset if she thought Jo liked someone else as well.
Later, of course, Simone matures into the lovely person we see advising the young in Jo to the Rescue, as well as being the only one of the quartet suited for taking a rigorous degree.

I strongly disagree that Jo's "real family" comment is meant as anything but rejoicing with Simone. It's pretty clear from the text immediately following that Jo is one of the few who knows just how much and for how long Simone has wanted another child. There's none of the teasing in this passage that characterizes their usual public demeanor. It seems to be a very private and heartfelt exchange, following on from other private discussions -- note how Jo has waited until no one else is around to bring it up. This scene is part of what leads me to believe that the grown-up Joey and Simone are close personal friends rather than just comfortable acquaintances linked by nostalgia.

#53: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:35 pm
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Bethannie wrote:

I'm not that sure that Simone's character does change as she gets older. I think that she finds a man who understands and loves her. She still has relationship difficulties, and problems with making decisions - classic Aspergers.

I don't think it helps thta EBD never really seemed as fond of Simone as of the rest of the quartette.

Where does she have problems as an adult?

#54: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:47 pm
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I suppose it's with the chateau and needing Joey's help to decide how to modernise it and what to do with the jewels.

#55: Author: Sugar, Location: second star to the right!

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:18 pm
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That's ridiculous! Just because she talked to one of her closest friends does NOT make her have a diagnosis of Aspergers Syndrome.

How many people go to their friends and say "What do you think to this wallpaper? Which paint goes better do you think?" when they are decorating.

And if I came into a load of expensive jewels I'd talk to my friends about my options.

For those who might be interested. Aspergers is diagnosed using this criterion.

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by (at least two of the following)

1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviours and gestures to regulate social interaction;

2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests or achievments with other people

4 lack of social or emotional reciprocity.

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests,and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus;

2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals;

3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (eg: hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements);

4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

And by the way Autism wasn't documented til 1973 (Kanner) and Aspergers til 1981 (Wing) and Aspergers didn't enter psychological diagnositic manuals until the 1990's.

Therefore, I think it is far to assume that EBD had no concept of Aspergers and was just portraying Simone as a clingy insecure child who was desperate for Jo's friendship.

#56: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:28 pm
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I don't think that EBD not knowing about Asperger's is a definitive proof that Simone doesn't have AS aspects to her character. She could have, for example, been based on a character that EBD knew in real life who had (obviously undiagnosed) Asperger's.

I definitely see Bethannie's point in terms of Simone as a child. Simone's character went through a dramatic change from a child to an adult so I can't really see it as an adult but I'm willing to listen to other perspectives. Smile

#57: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:46 am
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Hi everyone.

This question has raised some interesting debate, which is what this board is all about Very Happy

.

Everyone has the right to their opinion and they are all welcomed, of course. We all have our own experiences and perspectives. However, can we keep the tone of our posts polite and open-minded please?

Thank you muchly Very Happy

.

Alison - *with mod hat on*.

#58: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:16 am
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I don't think there's any need for a heated debate, but from the standard definitions, Simone seems to me NOT to have either a degree of autism or Asperger's.

Frankly, I think it's too much to keep reading all these things into EBD's writing.

These are school stories, churned out to make money, and in the later books, a heavy reliance on recycled plots. These are not academic texts and we really don't need to take an academic approach and analyse every last word, unless we actually choose to do academic work on Children's literature.

This is meant to be fun.

#59: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:04 am
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Politeness is the pride of princes... This is a reminder of what is in that post in the Voice forum.

Liss wrote:

It was once said of the staff of the Chalet School that they put every farthing of tuppence (or the other way round!) on good manners. The same goes for the CBB.

Recently, there seem to have been a number of people skirting towards rude. Please note that rudeness will not be tolerated on this board. If you are aware that your comments may cause offence, do not make them. You may poke fun at a friend and/or accuse her of being a big ho. You can do that on the board if you know that the person won't mind. But please don't make comments that may upset people. Similarly, please do not send rude PMs to anyone, even if you are annoyed about something.

If something has happened to anger or upset you on the board, please contact either a mod or myself to resolve it (or me, if the problem is with a mod), rather than launching yourself at the person.

As I have said before, I have no objection to people disagreeing with each other. I think that it is the sign of a healthy community. However, if you are consistently rude, I may authorise mods to delete any posts that might upset anyone.

The CBB is so big and has so many parts of it that people rarely like and read *all* of it. If there is a debate that you don't want to read or participate in, then please just avoid that thread, and leave the people who are enjoying it, to enjoy it.

This post is just a reminder. Please do continue posting your thoughts in this thread if you are interested in the topic being discussed. Very Happy

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