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Phrases you learned from EBD
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6950

Author:  cestina [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Phrases you learned from EBD

When I was posting to the Redheads thread I was reminded of a phrase I have used most of my life - certainly since I was ten or so and that is "hop-out-of-kin"

I find it incredibly useful but I nearly always end up having to explain what I mean by it. I have always known that I originally found it in a Chalet School book but it wasn't until last night when I was browsing in Carola that I located one time that she uses it (which I now of course can't find again :( ). I am fairly sure it appears more than just once in her books though because it made such a deep impression on me.

Another phrase I picked up was "to make a long leg under the table" which for some reason struck my Czech mother as incredibly funny which she was reading out loud to me one day. I probably had measles when one was not allowed to read.

Has anyone else got pet phrases culled from EBD?

(Another favourite of mine is "katey-cornered" or "kitty-cornered" meaning "at a diagonal" but I know that came from an American book I was given when I was nine or so)

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Accidentally-done-a-purpose.

I was quite put out to find out that "hanes" actually translates more along the lines of "history" than "gossip". Also, for several years I thought that "Splashery" was the German for cloakroom :oops: .

Author:  abbeybufo [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I've been known to apologise for 'making a long arm' to reach something across a table :roll:

In GO circles I don't need to explain, but there have been occasions when I've wondered if it wouldn't have been simpler to use another expression :lol:

Author:  leahbelle [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I use "put that on your needles and knit it". It's usually much more polite than what I am actually thinking!

Author:  Chris [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

My dad (now 81) has always used 'make a long arm' to reach over the table to get food. And I know for a fact he has never read any GO books!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Goodness, there are so many! Usually I use them in my writing, because I find it one of the easier ways to align my style with that of EBD, and of course on here there are certain pointers which most people will pick up on; almost like a CS shorthand.

"Rubber necked four flusher" was always a favourite, and I still tend on occasion to say things are 'spiffing' or the like. I can't think of any more off of the top of my head, but I know that so many of them have found their way into my vocabulary that they seem natural now.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

It's frightening how you adopt other people's styles of writing. My primary school teacher used to complain that I wrote like Enid Blyton (if only I'd had her success :lol: ), and sometimes if I re-read drabbles or other things I've written I can tell exactly whose books I was reading whilst I was writing them. I go all Jane Austen at times, all EBD at others, and I once wrote a university essay which sounded worryingly Gone With The Wind-ish :lol: .

Author:  Tor [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I quite often say "what's the why of that" which I know I got from EBD.

I do also rather over use the phrase 'my lamb', if I am in a certain frame of mind.

The Anne books are the source for many of my phrases. 'Posiive grave yard of buried hopes' being currently popular :roll: :roll:

But I have to say my favourite book steal is from Cold comfort Farm - 'klettering' the dishes or variants on the verb 'to kletter' rather than wash. Just brilliant, and most people instinctively know what you mean, because it is so brilliant and almost onomatopoeic!

Author:  Liz K [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Goodness, there are so many! Usually I use them in my writing, because I find it one of the easier ways to align my style with that of EBD, and of course on here there are certain pointers which most people will pick up on; almost like a CS shorthand.

"Rubber necked four flusher" was always a favourite, and I still tend on occasion to say things are 'spiffing' or the like. I can't think of any more off of the top of my head, but I know that so many of them have found their way into my vocabulary that they seem natural now.


What on earth is a rubber necked four flusher? That's always puzzled me.

Author:  cestina [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Liz K wrote:

What on earth is a rubber necked four flusher? That's always puzzled me.

I've always thought it was something to do with Poker. Presumably because of the word "flush" which I must have associated with a Royal Flush. So I worked out that a rubber-necked fourflusher was someone who cheated by peering at others' cards, hence the rubberneck, and who finished up thereby with a Flush or a Royal Flush......

If that's wrong, please don't disabuse me of the idea :?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Rubber necked four flusher

Cestina, I think you might be safe.

Author:  Liz K [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Thank you. I'd guessed "rubber necked" meant something along the lines of "nosey parker" but the "four flusher" bit threw me!

Author:  Clare [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

"Grey, still and to all appearances dead"... I think I may have used it once in an English essay. I was ripped apart by the teacher for unnecessarily flowery language!

Author:  cestina [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Thanks Ariel - I was inspired by your links to google a bit further and got this:
flush—the second-most valuable hand in the game. A straight flush made up of the five highest-face-value cards (ace, king, queen, jack and 10) is a royal flush, the most valuable hand in the game.

By comparison, a hand containing four cards of the same suit, and the fifth card of a different suit, with no pairs or other arrangements, is nearly valueless. A simple pair beats it.

Specifically, a four-flusher is someone who pretends to have a flush when he’s really one card short. More generally, it’s someone who’s good at bluffing while holding a worthless hand.

The term emerged in the mid-1800s as “four-flush” (both noun and verb), a specific poker term for holding and playing such a hand. It was not necessarily negative, since bluffing is an honored part of poker (and the origin of another classic piece of slang, “poker face”)
.

It's a bit worrying to think that I actually more or less worked that out before I reached my teens - my mother was a keen poker player and taught me almost as soon as I could hold a hand of cards :D

Author:  JayB [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Quote:
It's frightening how you adopt other people's styles of writing.

I haven't read Georgette Heyer for years for that reason. Her style is very infectious. (And I know most of my favourites almost by heart, anyway).

I was once told off for using 'plaster saint' in a school essay. My teacher knew I liked Golden Age detective fiction, and assumed it came from there. I didn't enlighten her. I've since found that EBD didn't invent the term; Kipling used it, which was where she probably found it. My teacher evidently didn't know that.

Author:  Abi [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

'Piffle' - Enid Blyton, not EBD, but my closest colleague at work also says it now. It's kind of funny to hear someone who usually uses, shall we say, rather pithier words, say 'oh piffle'.... :lol:

Author:  emma t [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

'Put that on your needles and knit it' I love it! It always makes me chuckle wheneve I come across it.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Why on earth would you go around calling someone a nosy bluffer :roll: ? As insults go, it's not really brilliant, is it :roll: ? I'm not always sure EBD knew what every word she used meant: the best example is when she calls Juliet an incubus :lol: .

I'm trying to remember if I ever called anyone a moke ... I know we went through "wally" (in the mid '80s), "plonker" (thank you Only Fools and Horses) and "dork" (thank you Neighbours) at various stages, but "moke" is a lovely word :lol: . EBD's use of "young" to mean small version of, e.g. "young bathtubs" for large mugs or "young lakes" for big puddles, makes me smile as well .

Author:  Cassie [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

JayB wrote:
Quote:
It's frightening how you adopt other people's styles of writing.

I haven't read Georgette Heyer for years for that reason. Her style is very infectious. (And I know most of my favourites almost by heart, anyway).
.


I came across most of my Georgette Heyer collection whilst at Uni and was awful for inadvertantly putting phrases into essays and not realising how odd they looked in context until they were handed back.

I've also found that I have to be careful with what I've read recently, as that sometimes starts creeping into my speech - which has led to some weird looks from colleagues... :oops:

Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Alison H wrote:
I'm not always sure EBD knew what every word she used meant: the best example is when she calls Juliet an incubus :lol:

EBD was using the normal literary definition of "incubus" rather than harking back to mythology: "something that weighs upon one; an almost inescapable burden." The OED version is "A person or thing that weighs upon and oppresses like a nightmare," with the examples given including the incubus of false doctrine, the incubus of slavery, and the incubus of evil habits. However, I've seen "incubus" quite often referring to a person with whom one would prefer not to be bothered, e.g. a regretted spouse or a responsibility that keeps some rotter from being footloose and fancy free. All in all I thought it a perfect word to describe the attitude of Juliet's parents to their daughter.

Author:  Luisa [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I once used "every farthing of tuppence" - think it was - and then had to explain the old currency in gruesome detail. Makes you feel old.
Normally quote Dorothy L Sayers and Stella Gibbons - surprising how ofter they are recognised.

Author:  judithR [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I made long arms over, put things on needles & knit them and did things accidentally on purpose long before reading EDB. I suspect these phrases were common currency when she was writing.

A propos of Stella Gibbons et al "something nasty in the ..." is frequently recognised but I am somewhat suprised that not more people use SEP fields (not from Stella Gibbons).

Author:  Len [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

In answer to requests from the children such as "Can I...?", I almost invariably reply, "No doubt you can; the question is may you". They're getting rather good at it now; I'll need to find another quotation with which to annoy them!

"...and Saints can't do more" is another favourite.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

My boss recently sent an e-mail round the office with "Can/may I ...?" on it. I strongly suspect that I've got him totally paranoid on the subject :lol: .

Author:  Squirrel [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

The main one which actually confuses me the most now is the will/shall question.... brought on by an EJO rant on the subject in one of the abbey girls stories... Being Scottish anyway, I'm condemned by my geographical region for that one though, that's if she is to be believed of course, so I tend to go whichever takes my fancy and live with it... :lol:

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Len wrote:
In answer to requests from the children such as "Can I...?", I almost invariably reply, "No doubt you can; the question is may you". They're getting rather good at it now; I'll need to find another quotation with which to annoy them!


That, for me, long predates the Chalet School as my grandmother could have given Hilda Annersley lessons in how to do it! And I, too, grew up with making a long arm to reach something and accidentally-on-purpose; as Judith says, they were common currency at the time EBD was writing.

The author who I have to not read if I want to keep my own writing clear is E M Delafield - the Provincial Lady is horribly catching!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

It's suddenly struck me what I've been finding odd about this - I never realised that 'accidental-on-purpose' was uncommon, I've always said it. There was something really bugging me about this thread until now!

Author:  JayB [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I learned 'accidentally on purpose' from my mother and she never read CS as a child. (She says she doesn't know how she missed them, as she did read DFB and AB.)

Author:  Kathy_S [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Yes, "accidentally on purpose" definitely predates EBD in my vocabulary, and I doubt the people from whom I learned it had ever read any CS.

I had one real stickler of an English teacher on the shall/will question. Here were her rules:
First person (I, we)
Shall: future tense
Will: indicates speaker's intent, e.g. "I will." = "I am going to do this no matter what.")
Second or Third Person (you, he, she, it, they)
Will: future tense
Shall: indicates speaker's intent, e.g. "You shall." = "You are going to do this whether you want to or not."

However, as far as I can tell most people use the words at random, with "will" winning the popularity contest for future tense.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I never know when to use "that" and when to use "which", and MS Word seems to want to use "that" every single time the question comes up!

Can't say I ever use the expression, but I think that "sister-by-marriage" is a much nicer term than "stepsister" :D .

Author:  Abi [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I must admit to having occasionally used the phrase "still, grey and to all appearance dead" which can elicit odd looks.

(Hmm, that sentence seems to be a "which" - "that" wouldn't sound right, but I have no idea why!)

Author:  Kate [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

"Which" is used when what follows is extra/incidental information and "that" is used when what follows is essential information.

Author:  Abi [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Aah, that kind of makes sense. Thanks Kate. :D

Author:  Lexi [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I used the phrase "came up trumps" today. I think this thread is having an effect! :lol:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I'm ashamed to say that I had to look up 'affect/effect' the other day :oops: I'd never even thought about 'will/shall' - though as I am making a determined effort to speak more slowly and improve my English, perhaps I should learn all of these rules of grammer and force myself to think of them everytime I plan to say something.

I fully intend to use "Solid lump of comfort" if I ever find someone to be mine.

Author:  Mel [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Expressions I expect in EBD are 'all that in me lies', 'to add insult to injury' and 'all on my lones.'

Author:  Billie [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

After getting caught in the rain the other day I cheerfully turned to my sister and commented that at least we weren't made of butter or sugar. She stared at me blankly and demanded, "where did that come from?" (I can't remember the context but I remember someone wanting to know "Are you made of butter or sugar?" when they're complaining about the rain.)

I was in an amateur Calamity Jane earlier in the year and was amused to hear "Four-flusher" and "Galoot" among Calamity's extensive vocabulary.

I also find myself being particular about "can" and "may."

Author:  Lesley [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Billie wrote:
After getting caught in the rain the other day I cheerfully turned to my sister and commented that at least we weren't made of butter or sugar. She stared at me blankly and demanded, "where did that come from?" (I can't remember the context but I remember someone wanting to know "Are you made of butter or sugar?" when they're complaining about the rain.)



It's from Camp isn't it? I think Miss Stewart says it sarcastically to Evvy or someone complaining about lack of stores.

Author:  Squirrel [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Billie wrote:
After getting caught in the rain the other day I cheerfully turned to my sister and commented that at least we weren't made of butter or sugar. She stared at me blankly and demanded, "where did that come from?"


You know... I'd forgotten that this came from EBD... I've used a variation on the theme ever since I was in High School and walked between there and my parents house (a very short distance, takes longer to travel by car cause of the way it is set up) in all weathers.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I fully intend to use "Solid lump of comfort" if I ever find someone to be mine.


My SLOC thinks that saying is hilarious and killed himself laughing when I told him that's what CBBers referred to him as.

Author:  ammonite [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Quote:
After getting caught in the rain the other day I cheerfully turned to my sister and commented that at least we weren't made of butter or sugar. She stared at me blankly and demanded, "where did that come from?" (I can't remember the context but I remember someone wanting to know "Are you made of butter or sugar?" when they're complaining about the rain.)


That is obscure! but I don't even use EBD for when it rains, I go further back to Topsy and Tim and say 'Good weather for ducks'. Which I think if memory serves me correctly is what the milkman says to Topsy and Tim possibly in Topsy and Tim go to School. However even though I have said it so many times I always think why??? surely ducks must hate the rain as well.

I'm sure other phrases must crop up. Is 'to stumble' on a EBD saying or have I picked that up from another set of books. Thinking about it, it sounds like a mystery book saying.

Author:  Rosie [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Billie wrote:
After getting caught in the rain the other day I cheerfully turned to my sister and commented that at least we weren't made of butter or sugar. She stared at me blankly and demanded, "where did that come from?" (I can't remember the context but I remember someone wanting to know "Are you made of butter or sugar?" when they're complaining about the rain.)


I always thought it was a ticking-off for being greedy!

Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

My tale of 'phrases learned from EBD' ends badly. When I was twelve and just starting French for the first time in my first term at secondary school, we were constructing sentences about Christmas for homework, and I, an eager little swot, copied in some phrases from Miss Ferrars about Christmas carols from Three Go. Not realising EBD's French was so poor, I was disbelieving and horrified when my homework came back a positive sea of red ink! :oops:

That cured me of using EBD phrases in any language. I think she's done more to stop me repeating words or phrases - I remember at one point vowing to avoid 'marvellous', as she seemed to have such a down on it. (Though, thinking about it now, I can't honestly see why a Headmistress's dislike of a single ordinary word should have percolated down to CS girls warning new girls to avoid it or face trouble! It sounds a bit nutty! Also, I'm tempted to point out that if the CS authorities hadn't been so fussy about slang, the girls could have said 'spiffing', 'tophole' or 'wizard' instead of 'marvellous'.)

Author:  andi [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Yes, and on that subject (sorry, going a bit OT), I never did understand why it was OK to say 'miraculous' instead of marvellous? I don't remember anyone getting told off for that, even though they used it pretty liberally.

Author:  Pat [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Wasn't the problem with 'marvellous' that they'd used it too much? I think the idea was to make them use alternatives because of that rather than that marvellous was slang.

Author:  Nightwing [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

It's in Excitements, I think, that Hilda tells Len off for using marvellous too much, and the girls look up alternative words in the thesaurus. It does seem that the only one that sticks is 'miraculous', though, and the use it ad nauseum - it's all the more obvious, I think, because calling everything 'marvellous' seems more natural than calling it 'miraculous'.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I've just been doing a re-read; I'd forgotten 'tyros', but it's one of those that I always wish I could remember to use when I get the chance!

I 'get' the looking things up; after I found myself becoming repetitive, everything is now always pulchritudinous. If I find a new word that I like it sticks, even if I know that no-one else will get it; saying 'knocked up' instead of 'tired out' (though that has quite an amusing side effect, too)

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

At school you do tend to get fads for particular words, like you do for particular fashions, hairstyles, hobbies/collections and other things, and I suppose it must drive teachers mad when they hear the same word all the time, but "marvellous" was the only one that Hilda seemed to get a bee in her bonnet about. It's very realistic that the girls all keep using the same word, though!

Has anyone ever referred to anyone, other than a baby or a toddler, as a poppet? That's a word that seems to be very "in" in the CS in the mid-Swiss years.

Author:  shesings [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

My late granny, who never read EBD as far as I know, would snap "you're not made of sugar, you'll not dissolve" if we were reluctant to go out in the rain!

On the shall/will question, Squirrel, I recall reading a J.M.Barrie short story (or possibly it was The Little Minister) where a comment on the lines of 'never trust a Scot who can keep their feet between shall and will' led to me abandoning 'shall' altogether except in school essays!

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Alison H wrote:
Has anyone ever referred to anyone, other than a baby or a toddler, as a poppet? That's a word that seems to be very "in" in the CS in the mid-Swiss years.


My grandma used to call me a poppet and I was 21 when she passed away, so I definitely wasn't a baby or toddler! Although it could be argued that grandparents always sort of think of you as being about 4 years old, I suppose. I'm not sure now if she used the word to refer to people she hadn't known as children.

Author:  ammonite [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I think the word poppet is a northern thing. Maybe she picked it up around South Shields as I'm sure I heard someone I worked with it using it in Newcastle.

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

It could generally be a Northern thing but my grandma spent her entire life in Southampton so there must be some of it down south as well- if she'd gone any further south she'd have been in the sea! :lol:

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I seem to remember reading that poppets are the things that witches are supposed to use for sticking pins in. Sorry about the horrible sentence there.

Author:  Rosie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Ah yes, "What signifies a poppet?". Possibly the only line of The Crucible any of my GCSE English class can probably remember these days!

Author:  Jennie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

What about 'They press him John, and all he say be 'More weight'.

Most of one of my 'A' level groups also took Geography, and they decided to do that scene for the astonished villagers of Hartington. I spent some time puzzling why my colleagues weren't speaking to me, till the girls very kindly enlightened me.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I still remember "I WILL CONFESS", as we were rehearsing in the hall and I managed to wheel around and scream it straight into the Headmaster's face :oops: :lol: He always looked at me askance after that.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Gosh, what I missed by not doing The Crucible at school. The only thing I remember as particularly amusing from English classes were girls trying to embarrass the rather nervous, male middle-aged English teacher by pretending, when we were doing Othello, not to understand what 'the beast with two backs' was...

Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Nothing was so fun as having to act out "Romeo and Juliet" at an all-girls school... (I was Friar Lawrence!). I don't know why our teachers always insisted on doing plays that mostly only had strong male parts: in my final year we did "West Side Story", so not only did most of the parts go to people who didn't even go to our school, but they cut out a bunch of the minor female parts to "save time"!!! I'm still bitter, obviously :D

Author:  Mel [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

As a teacher I enjoyed reading in an essay 'John Proctor was condomed to death.' How long would that take?

Author:  Lulie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

That reminds me of the time that we were asked to act out scenes from "Romeo and Juliet" at school. Two of my friends and I were doing the fight between Mercutio and Tybalt and I (Mercutio) did an Oscar winning death scene, only to discover on landing that I was at the Headmaster's feet and I'd almost stabbed him in the leg :oops: :oops: :oops:

Thankfully he had a sense of humour and merely complimented us on our "stagefighting" while helping me to my feet.

To coin a Chalet School phrase you could have fitted me into a thimble and my friends almost on the floor with laughter didn't help!

Author:  Lulie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Mel wrote:
As a teacher I enjoyed reading in an essay 'John Proctor was condomed to death.' How long would that take?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Not long if you stretched one over his mouth and nose and stuck it down with parcel tape.

Is it sad that I actually *thought* about this!

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

No, to me it's frighteningly natural.

Author:  Billie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sarah_G-G wrote:
It could generally be a Northern thing but my grandma spent her entire life in Southampton so there must be some of it down south as well- if she'd gone any further south she'd have been in the sea! :lol:


Or on the Isle of Wight! (admittedly she might have had to swim.)

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
...not to understand what 'the beast with two backs' was...


Dare I ask?

Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

The beast with two backs! (link)

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I might have guessed, knowing Will as I do. Thankyou for the link - I do now feel horribly naive! (And I was flashing my knees at the weekend. What is the world coming to?)

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Chubbymonkey, I do not believe you are anywhere near as innocent as you pretend! :D :wink:

It does make me wonder a little how on earth Miss Annersley's English classes would have dealt with the large numbers of sexual references and situations in classic literature, given EBD's strong feeling about 'nice-mindedness' and 'keeping girls young'. I know we talked about it a bit before, in relation to the Restricted Section of the CS library and the 'forbidden books' plots, but while there are lots of periods and authors they could easily have skipped in class - Restoration comedy, say, or the poetry of Rochester (who wrote a famously smutty poem about premature ejaculation) - Shakespeare, even the tragedies, is stuffed full of sexual references. I can imagine Mary-Lou, entirely innocently, in her bell-like tones, asking why Hamlet keeps going on about 'country matters'! :D And I genuinely wonder what Hilda would have said in response...?

Author:  Rosie [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
Gosh, what I missed by not doing The Crucible at school.


Oh, you missed out all right. I've changed my mind - I remember us quoting from that play for most of year 11!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
Chubbymonkey, I do not believe you are anywhere near as innocent as you pretend! :D :wink:


No, I genuinely do ask stupid questions like that! I admit that usually I have an inkling what they're about, though I always find it safer to ask just in case, but I really don't know things like that (despite the most open and frank parents imaginable).

I think that Miss A. might just have skipped over it, or told them to ask Nell during biology :twisted: Surely they would have had some inkling about it? Or would these be metaphors for 'adult relations within marriage', which is the closest the CS would come to alluding to sex?

Author:  RroseSelavy [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
It does make me wonder a little how on earth Miss Annersley's English classes would have dealt with the large numbers of sexual references and situations in classic literature, given EBD's strong feeling about 'nice-mindedness' and 'keeping girls young'. I know we talked about it a bit before, in relation to the Restricted Section of the CS library and the 'forbidden books' plots, but while there are lots of periods and authors they could easily have skipped in class - Restoration comedy, say, or the poetry of Rochester (who wrote a famously smutty poem about premature ejaculation) - Shakespeare, even the tragedies, is stuffed full of sexual references. I can imagine Mary-Lou, entirely innocently, in her bell-like tones, asking why Hamlet keeps going on about 'country matters'! :D And I genuinely wonder what Hilda would have said in response...?


After all the Old Testament classes, surely there wouldn't be much left that could shock them! Unless that was carefully censored...

Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

All they had to do was pick the right parts of Shakespeare and OT on which to focus, and use editions with suitably bowdlerized notes. (Don't "country manners" involve use of slang and choosing the wrong fork at a banquet?) Our teachers certainly managed to avoid any and all non-G-rated sexual references. Morals might be invoked, e.g. vs. David's shockingly falling in love with someone else's wife and putting her husband in the front lines, but that's about it.

Author:  Pat [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Our English classes ignored it too. And I did Shakespearefrom the 1st year at secondary school right up to A level. Even there I don't think there was anything made of it.

Author:  Abi [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

From our English classes you'd have thought Shakespeare had never heard of sex. Obviously not much has changed! :dontknow:

Author:  Clare [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Abi wrote:
From our English classes you'd have thought Shakespeare had never heard of sex.


By contrast, my English lit teacher made our whole A Level about sex! I hated his lessons by the end of the two years, purely because I refused to see sex in every line!! The worst was when he linked Othello into the porn he'd watched the night before :shock:

It's been eight/nine years since that lesson and I still haven't recovered...

Author:  Lexi [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

:shock:

We watched a version of Romeo & Juliet whilst doing our GCSE's that had a full frontal shot of Romeo in it. As you can imagine it caused a fair amount of sniggering :lol:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I wish that we'd had that video! Anything to enliven my GCSE's (though some of the stuff they made me watch for sex ed has scarred me for life)

We had a very similar teacher, Clare, the difference being that she was great fun! Her lessons were some of the best that I've ever had; but yes, everything was about sex! Probably not helped by studying books like Angela Carter and her "impaling" husbands.

Author:  Abi [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

:? Obviously I went to the wrong school - or possibly the right one!

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Interesting, I'd always assumed that all English teachers were obsessed with reading sex into every line once you reached A level! All three of my main ones were. Though to be fair, we did study Chaucer, Othello, Handmaid's Tale and Much Ado About Nothing, so maybe it was inevitable. I still don't think *every* Betjemen poem was about sex, though. We were just told we were all repressed because we'd read too much Enid Blyton as children! :roll: :lol:

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sarah_G-G wrote:
Interesting, I'd always assumed that all English teachers were obsessed with reading sex into every line once you reached A level!


A backlash against not being able to read sex into anything when they were at school, perhaps? :lol:

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

RroseSelavy wrote:

After all the Old Testament classes, surely there wouldn't be much left that could shock them! Unless that was carefully censored...


I've no real idea of how how polygamy, onanism, father-daughter incest, and impregnating your slaves would have been dealt with either, to be honest! (We stuck like glue to the New Testament.)

Would the CS girls have been using bowdlerised editions of Shakespeare still, even by the later years? I can easily understand that the notes would simply have not explained an indelicate phrase. But what I wondered, really, was what the correct CS staff response would have been if a 'good' CS girl asked an innocent question because she genuinely didn't understand something, and didn't realise it was a sexual reference. I can't imagine Mary-Lou would necessarily get the pun in 'country matters' - unless they'd been using unbowdlerised Chaucer - to go back to my original example.

Or would it have been obvious to the 'nice-minded' CS girls that if Miss Annersley skipped over a phrase in class, they should not ask her about it, because there was a Good Reason They Would Understand When They Were Older?

My flippant theory is that Hilda told them to ask Joey next time they were over to Freudesheim. :)

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
My flippant theory is that Hilda told them to ask Joey next time they were over to Freudesheim. :)


Actually, asking a doctor's wife might not be so silly! At the very least she could probably borrow some of Jack's books that had, uh, diagrams!

I just asked my Mum, who was at school in the 60's, whether her teachers addressed the question of sex in her English classes, and she said mostly she remembers studying the battles in Shakespeare's histories, and focusing on other English playwrights for her A-levels.

Author:  JennieP [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

But thinking, for example about Malvolio saying in Twelfth Night "These be her very c's, her u's, and her t's" - how many 14 year olds will get that that's a dirty joke unless explained to them? Hilda could probably have skipped over a lot of things and they wouldn't even have noticed that they were double entendres.

Author:  cestina [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

JennieP wrote:
But thinking, for example about Malvolio saying in Twelfth Night "These be her very c's, her u's, and her t's" - how many 14 year olds will get that that's a dirty joke unless explained to them? Hilda could probably have skipped over a lot of things and they wouldn't even have noticed that they were double entendres.


It's not just the 14year olds who didn't realise! It wasn't till my daughter became a Voice and Text coach with the Royal Shakespeare Company that I discovered a great deal more in Shakespeare than I had known was there - and I am 67 :oops:

By the way, I do think that in this fascinating discussion about what constitutes a good writer we need to differentiate between great authors and great playwrights. The work of the latter is meant to be performed and not read and that is part of the problem with Shakespeare as served up in schools. If you are not given the opportunity of seeing his works on stage you need a brilliant teacher to get a full revelation of his genius. I was supremely lucky - I had U.A.Fanthorpe as my English teacher for several years. I suspect that one could draw a straight line from her lessons to my daughter's career. But even U.A. kept quiet about "her very c's, her u's, and her t's" :lol:

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

JennieP wrote:
But thinking, for example about Malvolio saying in Twelfth Night "These be her very c's, her u's, and her t's" - how many 14 year olds will get that that's a dirty joke unless explained to them? Hilda could probably have skipped over a lot of things and they wouldn't even have noticed that they were double entendres.


Sure, with that Malvolio speech, there's no reason for anyone to realise there's a double entendre, because there's an obvious surface meaning of Malvolio recognising Olivia's handwriting, or thinking he does.

But, say, Hamlet's speeches to Ophelia don't have that 'obvious' innocuous surface meaning, and I could imagine a girl asking innocently why Hamlet starts talking about the countryside all of a sudden. Though I suppose Hilda could just say firmly 'Hamlet's pretending to be mad here, girls, so he's talking nonsense, so you needn't worry about any references to the country, green gowns, or the 'nothing' that lies between a maid's legs!'

Or someone asking innocently what 'tupping' meant in Othello... :oops:

Author:  cestina [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Just noticed that the fascinating discussion on genius is going on in another thread....oops, sorry.

Author:  judithR [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sunglass wrote:
Would the CS girls have been using bowdlerised editions of Shakespeare still, even by the later years?


We used them in the 1960s at a state Grammar School & I remember in the 1970s my younger sister sniggering over the porter's weapon when she was comparing my parents ex1930s Grammar School text with the version they were then using.

And how did they deal with knowing (or knowing not) in the biblical sense given that the Hebrew actually uses "know" in the sexual context?

Somewhat OT (pun intended), 2 Samuel has a lovely expression for men - "those who **** against the wall".

Author:  cal562301 [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Slightly off-topic, but not unrelated. When I was at grammar school in the early 70s, we were banned from reading certain parts of the Cicero book we were studying for A level Latin (sorry, can't remember its name!). This was because he apparently wrote some extremely rude things about Mark Antony and his sexual exploits.

Since we were actually reading it in the original, I'm not sure how much we would have understood, even though it was a mixed grammar school. But perhaps they thought we'd be tempted to look up all the rude words in a dictionary. :lol:

Author:  Kathy_S [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Yes, at my university there were sections -- and in fact whole authors -- skipped in Latin. The professor said they were "inappropriate for mixed company." :shock: Given some of Suetonius that we did read, I really had no interest in hunting out anything worse.... If I wanted torture, that unintelligible quantum mechanical part of physical chemistry was already enough to deal with, thank you very much.

And with regard to the Shakespearean letters -- it would have taken a teacher very determined to broaden our minds in that way. I know that I, for one, never even met the word I'm guessing you all are assuming until a university medieval literature class. I think that was true of a lot of us and would have been typical at the CS: the inferences that apparently are now so obvious wouldn't have come up, because we lacked the context.

Author:  LauraMcC [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I must admit that I happily did six years of studying Shakespeare at school, and never got any of the innuendos. :oops: But I suppose that I am still very innocent and naive and all the rest of it. I was also that annoying kid who asked the teacher, in my loudest voice, "What does x mean?", which usually made my teachers very embarrassed.

And to return very quickly to the thread's title, my absolute favourite phrase from EBD is "rumbustious crocodile", as Joey refers to Professor Fry. When I first heard it, I had no idea what "rumbustious" meant, and I thought that it had such a lovely sound that it became my choicest comeback/ general rude word, whenever certain boys in my year were annoying me. Life was never quite the same after I looked in a dictionary and found the meaning of "rumbustious".

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We certainly used the bowdlerised Shakespeare in the 1960s! And bowdlerised Juvenal in our A-level Latin. My kind cousin kindly sent me some of the cut-out bits, and I embarrassed our Latin teacher quite dreadfully by asking her for a translation, just in case those lines came up in the exam.... which, needless to say, they didn't!

Author:  Sugar [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We did The Changeling (Middleton and Rowley) and Hamlet (Shakespeare) as plays at A level as well as "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf". At a convent - though I wasn't taught A level by the sisters (who had gone by that point) but you can imagine the fun we had with the mistreeses who never referenced anything specific though I think we had it pretty much sown up. Our GCSE editions had a english translation in but that was only Mid Summers night. Romeo and Juliet we had to manage!

I caused no end of grief in A Level English though as my Dad died the w/e before we were meant to start Hamlet and they considered altering our play so I didn't get too upset but we ended up doing it after I pointed out I'd read those bits already!

Author:  JellySheep [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Returning to 'phrases learned from EBD', my speech is peppered with the things and people do sometimes think them weird. I find the way the characters talk is quite infectious. Some favourites:
"From the sublimey to the gorblimey" (Michael Christy)
"Making a long arm/leg"
"Cruelty to dumb animals" (which I now restrain after getting into trouble for it!)
"May as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb"
Words like brekker, nose-mat...

Author:  fraujackson [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I certainly make a long arm/leg and use a nose-mat.

Does anyone say 'cast up and down' for 'wander about' in CS or did I nick that from somewhere else ?

An EMB-ism I've never heard in real life is 'trig'. Hilda is always so and I've no idea where it comes from ! (Also 'mazey' for the ballet dancers.)

Author:  cestina [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

"Trig" meaning smart in appearance is to be found in Georgette Heyer if I'm not mistaken. Apparently comes from the Old Norse word for "true"

Author:  fraujackson [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

cestina wrote:
"Trig" meaning smart in appearance is to be found in Georgette Heyer if I'm not mistaken. Apparently comes from the Old Norse word for "true"


Thank you ! Never read any Georgette Heyer :oops: :oops:

Author:  andi [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Coincidentally, I just came across the word 'trig' yesterday while reading Winter Holiday. I think Mr Dixon says it to Dick when they're discussing the new sledge. It's the first time I've come across it anywhere except in the CS.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

JellySheep wrote:
"Cruelty to dumb animals" (which I now restrain after getting into trouble for it!)


Me, I change that one to "Cruelty to dumb Annabels" (actually, it was a matron at school who coined that one, teasing me about something I was complaining about, but it comes in handy on occasion!)

Author:  cestina [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

fraujackson wrote:
cestina wrote:
"Trig" meaning smart in appearance is to be found in Georgette Heyer if I'm not mistaken. Apparently comes from the Old Norse word for "true"


Thank you ! Never read any Georgette Heyer :oops: :oops:

Mouth drops open in equal measures of amazement and envy.

This is one author I absolutely know I have read - the whole oeuvre and most of them many times over. The main comfort reading for both daughter and myself. If you come to it new, like Terry Pratchett, you need to pick the first few carefully. (Daughter and I will now launch into fisticuffs over which to recommend as starters)

Author:  Miss Di [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

JellySheep wrote:
"Cruelty to dumb animals" (which I now restrain after getting into trouble for it!)



May I ask why? I use it too but have never got into trouble for it.

Never use a nose mat. Hankies are nasty unsanitary items, please pass the tissues!

Echoing Cestina's praise of Georgette. My favourite is These Old Shades

Author:  Artemis [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I love These Old Shades, but one of the funniest to my mind is Arabella. I never realised how funny, since I tend to be a bit serious, until I lent it to my flu-ridden 15 year old daughter for a bit of light relief and found her giggling madly over Arabella and the climbing boy . . . I also adore The Grand Sophy - the scene where she get's Hubert's ring back is brilliant, and Eugenia ending up with Lord Bromford is total poetic justice.

That's off topic - EBD phrases - not really, as they don't stick.

Author:  Len [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Regarding EBD expressions, I like "suited the action to the word", which I'd only ever seen in CS books until yesterday when I caught a character in a Mary Wesley book saying it. I was absurdly pleased; it felt a little like meeting an old friend in an unexpected place.

Author:  Rosie [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I came across disliking someone as with Dr Fell in an ancient Sunday-School story earlier, which I've only ever come across in the CS. I think Len uses it somewhere.

Author:  Artemis [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

The Doctor Fell thing is, I think, by a man called Cary, who did a lot of versified translations of Roman poets:

I do not like thee, Dr Fell,
Exactly why, I cannot tell,
But this I know and know full well,
I do not like thee Dr Fell

It's a paraphrase of an epigram by Martial:

Non amo te, Sabidi: cur nescio
Sed fieri sentio, et excrucior

(I do not love you, Sabidius, why, I don't know, but I feel it and it tortures me.)

Quite a lot of EBD assumes in its reader that upper-middle class educated familiarity with the canon literature and language of public school doesn't it; an 'elaborated code' snobbery. When you read into the books, it's clear why she has issues with the Joan Bakers: they're not PLUs (People Like Us) on so many different levels.

Author:  JS [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Quote:
We certainly used the bowdlerised Shakespeare in the 1960s! And bowdlerised Juvenal in our A-level Latin. My kind cousin kindly sent me some of the cut-out bits, and I embarrassed our Latin teacher quite dreadfully by asking her for a translation, just in case those lines came up in the exam.... which, needless to say, they didn't!



We did Juvenal for sixth year studies - there was just me and the teacher - and it certainly wasn't bowdlerised. I remember blushing madly when my (male) teacher had to explain, not only the Latin but what was meant in English - I wasn't that naive either; just wasn't expecting it in the context.

Back on topic, since this topic was raised, I've found myself aplogising for 'making a long arm' several times - don't recall even noticing it before :)

Author:  Joey [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

This is an interesting thread. Some of the phrases people say they picked up from EBD, I was using before I read any CS books.

I always thought "I do not like the,, Dr Fell" was a nursery rhyme, although I've heard since that it was by Cary.

Lots of phrases that have always been part of my everyday vocabulary crop up in EBD: suiting the action to the word, saints can't do more, coming up trumps, cruelty to dumb animals, adding insult to injury, might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, cruelty to dumb animals. I didn't know any of these were uncommon! Then there are phrases where EBD uses a variation on what seems normal to me - "accidentally on purpose" and "from the sublime to the cor blimey" are normal phrases to me.

As for the teaching of Shakespeare in schools, I love Shakespeare. I think he is vastly underrated by most people: his word play is witty and he is also downright funny. The tragedies are full of imagery, and the histories need to be taken with a large handful of salt, but there are some amazing sentiments portrayed. Ithink Shakespeare is timesless and it's a real tragedy how little most people know of his work.

Having said all that, the way Shakespeare is taught in shcools is a good way of killing him dead. They're plays! Yes, introduce kids to them from the beginning of secondary school - eleven isn't too young for things like The Dream - but take the kids to the theatre. Yes, they will miss a lot of the subtleties, but let them be captivated by the magic. I really think that analysing Shakespeare's plays should be kept for A level English studenst at the earliest.

If anyone tells me that schools don't take kids to the theatre any more, I think I really will cry. I lived in rural West Wales: not only did we have trips to the theatre in Cardiff, Swansea, Stratford-upon-Avon and even London - most of which did have to be paid for - but the LEA used to hire touring theatres companies to stage Shakespeare plays and workshops, which several schools attended at the same time. That was what brought Shakespeare to life for me, and it didn't cost parents anything.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Artemis wrote:

Quite a lot of EBD assumes in its reader that upper-middle class educated familiarity with the canon literature and language of public school doesn't it; an 'elaborated code' snobbery.


I don't know that I'd agree entirely (while taking the point about Joan Baker, obviously) about an assumed familiarity with the kind of cultural references that would presume an elevated class background. I find EBD quite middlebrow in her references - Georgette Heyer, Angela Thirkell, Dorothy L Sayers, Richmal Crompton, ALOE, John Buchan, the Elsie books, Louisa M Alcott, the various authors referenced in charades and at the Book Titles costume evening, and lots of others I can't recall offhand. I know you do also get mentions of Austen, Thackeray, Dickens -- and there's talk of a Shakespeare sale, though I can't remember if it ever happens? - but they don't predominate for me.

To compare another school story writer, I find Antonia Forest is far more likely to assume an upper-middle-class familiarity with the literary canon (as well as Hornblower, Kipling Mary Renault and Sayers) - her characters read/act in/recite/toss around references to a huge range of literature from the 'Lyke-Wake Dirge' through Shakespeare, the Brontes, Hardy, Walter Scott, de la Mare, Browning etc. Plus, while you get detailed descriptions of nativity plays and pantomimes in EBD, in whichever AF book it is that involves a production of The Tempest, she assumes the reader's familiarity with the play's plot in a quite sophisticated way that I don't think EBD expects of her reader.

Not denigrating EBD for this, incidentally - I enjoy her middlebrow-ness!

And 'I do not like thee, Dr Fell' is by Tom Brown, isn't it? The Fell in question was an unpopular 17thc Dean of Christ Church, Oxford.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Joey wrote:
If anyone tells me that schools don't take kids to the theatre any more, I think I really will cry....That was what brought Shakespeare to life for me, and it didn't cost parents anything.


I was taken to the theatre twice on one school trip that cost my parents probably more than they could afford at the time! But it was one of those "you have to do something" weeks, and most of the time it was the cheap stay at school option for us, but my brother and I were each allowed one "proper" trip. I also went to the theatre to see a play adaptation of a book we were doing at A-level, but that was just for enjoyment. As of my knowledge, it isn't a standard thing in schools anymore - certainly it wasn't for us!

Artemis wrote:
Quite a lot of EBD assumes in its reader that upper-middle class educated familiarity with the canon literature and language of public school doesn't it; an 'elaborated code' snobbery.


I'd have to disagree as well, sorry! Although there were a couple of references that I didn't get as a child - such as to Austen - I did get them most of the time. In fact, I think she's very accessible - to go back OT, even phrases that I didn't know didn't put me off the books, just delighted me with their unusualness.

Author:  LauraMcC [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

Joey wrote:
If anyone tells me that schools don't take kids to the theatre any more, I think I really will cry....That was what brought Shakespeare to life for me, and it didn't cost parents anything.


I was taken to the theatre twice on one school trip that cost my parents probably more than they could afford at the time! But it was one of those "you have to do something" weeks, and most of the time it was the cheap stay at school option for us, but my brother and I were each allowed one "proper" trip. I also went to the theatre to see a play adaptation of a book we were doing at A-level, but that was just for enjoyment. As of my knowledge, it isn't a standard thing in schools anymore - certainly it wasn't for us!


I was taken to the theatre three times while at school, although one of those times was a special AH English trip. Trips were put on fairly frequently for the people studying drama, but I'm pretty sure that any of the Seniors were allowed to go, although I tended not to feel like it. I'm not sure about how it was in most schools, though.

Author:  Lexi [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We did Midsummer Night's Dream in (I think) Year 9 and got to taken to quite the most bizarre production I've ever seen. I think it was sponsored by Sellotape - the fairies spent about 20 minutes creating Titania's throne out of it! :shock:

We hold outdoor theatre at work during the summer and had a few school groups coming along to see The Lord Chamberlain's Men perform Twelfth Night last year. They absolutely loved it :D So did I actually, they're a fantastic company.

Author:  cal562301 [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

At grammar school, the only play I remember being taken to see was Bertolt Brecht's Caucasian Chalk Circle, which we were studying for German A Level.

However, I remember touring theatre groups, which someone else mentioned, coming and putting on special performances and workshops for several schools together, when I was still at Junior School.

Author:  cestina [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Joey wrote:
As for the teaching of Shakespeare in schools, I love Shakespeare. I think he is vastly underrated by most people: his word play is witty and he is also downright funny. The tragedies are full of imagery, and the histories need to be taken with a large handful of salt, but there are some amazing sentiments portrayed. Ithink Shakespeare is timesless and it's a real tragedy how little most people know of his work.

Having said all that, the way Shakespeare is taught in shcools is a good way of killing him dead. They're plays! Yes, introduce kids to them from the beginning of secondary school - eleven isn't too young for things like The Dream - but take the kids to the theatre. Yes, they will miss a lot of the subtleties, but let them be captivated by the magic. I really think that analysing Shakespeare's plays should be kept for A level English studenst at the earliest.

If anyone tells me that schools don't take kids to the theatre any more, I think I really will cry. I lived in rural West Wales: not only did we have trips to the theatre in Cardiff, Swansea, Stratford-upon-Avon and even London - most of which did have to be paid for - but the LEA used to hire touring theatres companies to stage Shakespeare plays and workshops, which several schools attended at the same time. That was what brought Shakespeare to life for me, and it didn't cost parents anything.


I echo every word of this Joey, though I think one can start with the analysing a bit earlier than A level. Whilst the Royal Shakespeare Company is around you don't need to cry though. Their Education Department does amazing work with schools - have a look at the website: http://www.rsc.org.uk/learning/ and their work spills over into the rest of the Company as well. My daughter, one of the Voice coaches, is often out and about the country leading workshops for schools and the Open Days at Stratford are full to bursting with adults and children.

And as you mention, there are other companies around who still bring Shakespeare to schools although funding is an eternal problem. Even companies like Shakespeare 4 Kidz (http://www.shakespeare4kidz.com/) have a role to play though some of us might feel a bit uncomfortable with the dumbing down. But what they do is good, of its kind.

So please don't despair! He will survive.........

Author:  sealpuppy [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I've always done the 'but the question is may you...' and must confess to sneaking in secret references to great works of literature (EBD etc :) ) in my own books. Nobody has so far commented on the Cold Comfort Farm ref in my first novel, though Len (of the CBB) emailed to giggle at 'do my best but saints can't do more' which I had completely forgotten. In my last book I snuck in a couple of minute refs and in the new one I must have done my thing of absorbing Georgette Heyer because the first review mentions GH and Jane Austen too: which was clever because I started the series wanting to write GH-style historical mysteries ie romance and murder, but set in the 1850s. (It's frightening how easy it is to write in someone else's style and I try to limit how much I do it.)
A friend emailed the other day to snigger at the young mathematics lecturer from Oxford who likes little girls (in the new book) but didn't recognise the small sandy-haired, green-eyed lady with a shady past!

Just rereading my Angela Thirkells and wonder what EBD (or indeed anyone else) made of her ref to Eric Swann, 'that talented master-baiter' :shock: I kid you not! I suspect AT was having a giggle there, she wasn't a maiden lady like EBD!

Author:  JB [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We went to the theatre in Manchester, Newcastle and Blackpool from school. I can't remember all the productions but there was some Shakespeare. It was also in the days when the RSC toured and came to Cumbria.

Our Sixth Form hosted smaller touring companies and we could get in for free if we acted as stewards. We also used to make regular visits to the theatre around an hour away in the back of a laundry van belonging to the parents of a pupil, which was driven by the English teacher. Can't see that being acceptable now. :shock:

My worst experience was a touring production of Macbeth, where (as it was a small company), all the actors took on several roles and wore identical body stockings. Not a good introduction to the play.

My friends son went on a trip with school recently to see A Midsummer Night's Dream. Unfortunately, they'd mistakenly booked for a non-English language production and the children were very confused. :roll:

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We once went on a school trip to see A Midsummer Night's Dream in Stratford-upon-Avon, which we were apparently supposed to be very excited about.

We had tea at McDonald's. Eeh, we were very cultured at our school :lol: .

Author:  JS [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Quote:
My friends son went on a trip with school recently to see A Midsummer Night's Dream. Unfortunately, they'd mistakenly booked for a non-English language production and the children were very confused.


We went to see a film of Hamlet but they'd ordered in a Russian one by mistake. Apparently the translation was quite perfunctory*, although the subtitles were Shakespeare (eg - Hamlet, you've upset your dad...)

I went to see Midsummer Night's Dream in Japanese in Newcastle once - at least I knew the story....

ETA my English teacher spoke Russian.

Author:  Abi [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We never got taken to the theatre, though both my sister, who went to the same school, went. I think we must have been forgotten! A touring company did The Tempest and another did something else, only they wore masks so I refused to watch it (was about eleven at the time!). We did watch a film of Midsummer Night's Dream in year 9 and I was entranced and fell in love with Shakespeare from that time on. Sadly I've only ever seen that production of The Tempest live though I do have many, many films and, of course, read the plays.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We had visiting theatre groups but no trips, though I did see Romeo & Juliet when I was about 19. Pavilion Theatre in Bournemouth and Judi Dench and John Stride in the title roles. Magic. Also saw Hamlet at Stratford once, otherwise my Shakespeare has been film or TV.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

We got to see the "Gangsta" version of Romeo and Juliet in year... nine, in which they sport pistols and all Romeo's gang shout things like "Yo, whatup?" at all Juliet's gang. It was, um, interesting. Maybe not a film I'd see again - and it surprised me, because they usually had to be quite careful about films.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

One of the things my school was good at was theatre trips, especially in the Sixth Form. Most have blurred together in my memory (it was over 40 years ago now!), but I do remember a stunning performance of MACBETH at the Round House in Chalk Farm. And on another occasion - I can't remember what the play was, but I remember we all sneaked out for a drink in the interval and then were badly held up getting back to school because it was a Saturday evening and engineering works on the railway are no new thing!

And even better, after A levels were over you were allowed to go home for a long weekend before returning for the rest of term (I seem to remember spending most of it knitting a baby cardigan for a friend's daughter in front of Wimbledon on the housekeeper's television!), and I couldn't go when most people did as Latin was, as always the last of all. And we were going on a trip to the Chichester Festival Theatre at the end of the week, so I got an extra day at home by explaining to the headmistress that it would be so much more convenient for my parents to drop me at Chichester - a mere 15 miles or so from home - than to bring me back to school (over 50 miles!). She bought it, too, which surprised me at the time, but doesn't now.

But we had some great theatre trips, including some to "experimental" plays - Ionesco and so on.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

To go back to the original topic - is 'to cast your baby/ies' familiar to other people as an expression meaning to wean/to stop breastfeeding? It comes up just after the traumatic trip across the Channel in Goes to It:

Quote:
Commander Wynne had assured them that a few days in bed would be all Joey would need to put her right, but she must cast her babies at once. She rebelled against this, but gave in when she found that nursing even one of them would unfit her for anything, even if the child profited by it, which was doubtful.
‘And they do look sweet with cups and spoons,’ added Frieda.


I've never come across this phrase for weaning elsewhere, and I find it quite funny! It makes the unfortunate triplets sound like a garment to be discarded (I think EBD does have CS girls asking if they can 'cast' their coats on warm days?), or like shed dog hair, or possibly something to do with knitting... :D Or is it a common phrase I just haven't come across?

Author:  cestina [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
To go back to the original topic - is 'to cast your baby/ies' familiar to other people as an expression meaning to wean/to stop breastfeeding? It comes up just after the traumatic trip across the Channel in Goes to It:

Quote:
Commander Wynne had assured them that a few days in bed would be all Joey would need to put her right, but she must cast her babies at once. She rebelled against this, but gave in when she found that nursing even one of them would unfit her for anything, even if the child profited by it, which was doubtful.
‘And they do look sweet with cups and spoons,’ added Frieda.


I've never come across this phrase for weaning elsewhere, and I find it quite funny! It makes the unfortunate triplets sound like a garment to be discarded (I think EBD does have CS girls asking if they can 'cast' their coats on warm days?), or like shed dog hair, or possibly something to do with knitting... :D Or is it a common phrase I just haven't come across?

Hmm, interesting one. I'm sure I've come across it elsewhere but it could be that I do just know it from EBD. When you google "to cast a baby" you get lots of hits about plaster mouldings..... :D

Author:  alicat [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Never come across cast for weaning before...

I never questioned casting off a coat, just thought it was another way of saying take off, in line with casting off boats being untying mooring ropes and horses casting their coats being when they shed winter coats of thick hair, in spring. along with other animals - why oh why did i let a white cat adopt us??

As for casting around, as in wandering, i thought that was like from hunting, when you 'cast' hounds so they can search for a lost scent. it means to send them out in a fan-shaped pattern to hunt, and I always thougth that one came from casting something like seed corn, or bread upon the waters.

Author:  macyrose [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Casting her babies always makes me think of Jo flinging the triplets in all directions!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

macyrose wrote:
Casting her babies always makes me think of Jo flinging the triplets in all directions!


Yes, it does suggest she's throwing them off a balcony, come to think of it! :shock: :D

I just think it's interesting that EBD even mentions breast-feeding in a fairly indirect way, given her total silence on most bodily issues (despite her obsession with giving everyone large families) - she doesn't have to, after all. It's not particularly necessary to know Joey is breastfeeding the triplets at all during an exciting war-time chase at sea. But it does seem to be a bit of a preoccupation throughout the whole crossing - the conversation between Joey and Nigel about her wearing a life-jacket the entire time seems to be implicitly about how she can feed the babies while wearing it -

Quote:
In the cabin, Joey was being inducted into her life-belt, and being informed by Nigel Willoughby that she must retain it until they reached shore again....
‘Can’t you give me some idea? I mean—what about the babies?’
Nigel frowned. ‘I’d forgotten. That’s a complication. We may be anything up to two days or so. Can’t you manage anyhow, Joey?’
‘Talk sense! Apart from anything else, how would you like to be cuddled up against a thing like this?....’
‘I give it up,’ he said helplessly. ‘You must contrive somehow.’ And he left the cabin to go on deck.
‘Isn’t that just like a man?’ demanded Joey of her two friends. ‘...Anyhow, I fed them just before we left the house, so they oughtn’t to want anything for a few hours yet.


And all those references to the worry that it will 'upset the children' if Joey become seriously ill from strain are presumbably euphemisms for the fear that her breastmilk might potentially dry up?

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I find it odd too. We get various references to Joey having to see to Stephen, and Ailie being old enough not to "need" Madge any more, and at a time when nearly all mothers breast-fed it's not as if the subject would have been strange to readers, but she does go on in an awful lot of detail in Joey's case.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

As a child, I always just read that as them not wanting to try and cuddle the babies against a hard life jacket.

Maybe she was keen to emphasise that Joey wasn't wasting good milk supplies during war rationing?

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

Maybe she was keen to emphasise that Joey wasn't wasting good milk supplies during war rationing?



So, I may have only been half paying attention to this thread while finding the new posts that I hadn't read yet. May have somehow read this and ended up with visions of Joey being milked to provide her entire family with milk and not use milk rations unnecessarily. :oops:

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Sarah_G-G wrote:
visions of Joey being milked to provide the entire family with milk and not use milk rations unnecessarily. :oops:


I'm afraid that image occurred to me as well :oops: :lol: .

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Oh dear, does my English really need improving that much?

"It was, perhaps, EBD's intentions that Joey should not be seen to be feeding rationed milk to babies during such a time of crisis."?

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Now that I think about Joey 'casting her babies' (sorry, this expression is still cracking me up! :D ) all of a sudden - and excuse possible ignorance here, I have no children - wouldn't that have been a potentially uncomfortable, even difficult process if done suddenly, and need to involve at least some pumping to express the milk she would still have been producing - especially given that she seems to have been sustaining three six- month-olds entirely on her own milk?

Generally one tapers off by gradually reducing breastmilk feeds, I gather, to cut down the flow of milk gradually...?

From what's said, it's not that her milk supply has dried up, just that the doctor thinks it would be bad for her to continue feeding the triplets. (Mind you, the logistics of breast-feeding three babies make my mind boggle. When they were very small, she must have been feeding more or less around the clock, unless she had a secret wetnurse EBD never mentions...)

Author:  Nightwing [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Perhaps Margot wasn't breastfed? If she had to have what would certainly be inferior milk instead, that might explain why she was the sickly one...

Author:  emma t [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Nightwing wrote:
Perhaps Margot wasn't breastfed? If she had to have what would certainly be inferior milk instead, that might explain why she was the sickly one...



Could well be! How did Joey manage to feed them all? I remember in Exile something was said about 'give me one,nurse...' but truly, I am astounded as to how she did manage to breast feed them; especially if they were all hungry at the same time - did one or more be fed by a bottle rather than from the breast?

Author:  Llywela [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I think with multiple births (at least of the lower order) the norm is to breast feed as much as mum is able and supplement with bottle feeds. I'd imagine that's what Joey would have done.

As far as Margot's fragility goes, it is very common with multiple births for one of the babies to be smaller and frailer than the others, usually because the others took up more space in the womb and it was squeezed out, as I understand it, although I may be misquoting the science there!

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Oh dear, does my English really need improving that much?

"It was, perhaps, EBD's intentions that Joey should not be seen to be feeding rationed milk to babies during such a time of crisis."?



Don't worry, you made perfect sense! It was just me switching between this, book catalogues and new books at work resulting in me giving maybe half my attention to any one of those things at a time... :coffee: The image did amuse me though, so you did me a favour either way as I was very bored this morning!

Author:  Tan [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Wow - I had never picked up on that expression before. :shock:

And yes, Joey potentially could be in a bit of pain as you generally do try to taper off breast-feeding.

Author:  Nicci [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I am 90% certain that "to cast off" in this context does mean to wean. I have recollections of this being discussed on here several years ago.

As for the breast feeding, I hadn't noticed until mentioned that there is a fair bit of detail about Joey's feeding. I imagine her worry on that channel crossing was that if she couldn't breast feed properly for a few days, she might stop producing enough milk altogether. And I don't know, but can imagine, that life jackets back then were much more solid and bulky than they are even now. Must have been a logistical nightmare with triplets to feed. I doubt she managed to keep her jacket on much!

On the subject of phrases I've picked up, I have been known to use 'temper justice with mercy' in interviews, and frequently refer to my teenage charges as 'poppet' and even said 'oh be a lamb and ...'

Author:  LizzieC [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

Not so much a phrase as a word - I say "horrid", which my SLOC says no one says so attributes my use of it to my CS books!

Is "horrid" really such a GO word?

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phrases you learned from EBD

I'd say it was old-fashioned rather than specifically GO. "Horrible" seems to be used these days, whereas at one time people would have said "horrid" to mean the same thing, but I wouldn't say that it was particularly a GO word.

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