The CBB :: View topic - Phoebe and Dr Peters

'He asked me if my wife would try and get some idea from Phoebe about it, so that he could know what to do. It's an akward position, you see, girls,' went on Jack ... 'He seems to be falling in love more and more each day, and if he goes on seeing her - well, there's a limit to every man's endurance, and he may break some day, and say something. If she likes the idea, well and good. If she doesn't, it would mean worry and upset for her; and he would have to hand her over to someone else as a patient ... '

EBD has some very odd ideas about 'the limits to every man's endurance' - which sounds faintly like the kinds of things we used to be told, when I was younger, about Men and Their Unstoppable Urges!

But ... there's is something just a bit weird about it ... Phoebe is very like his mother, who had the same disease. Frank cared for his mother and loved her dearly (and I want to see that as innocent, since I think today it might be seen as not innocent) - isn't he simply replacing his dead mother with Phoebe?

Phoebe has the mother's ring for her engagement ring, although she is asked about whether or not she'd like it. But why offer it in the first place? Or am I over-interpreting the situation?

I know the Phoebe/Dr Peters storyline is highly dubious ethically, but I can't help loving it. *sigh*

I like the idea of lovelorn Frank asking Jack for romantic advice and getting him to ask Joey to sound out Phoebe

. It's kind of sweet.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:	Phoebe and Dr Peters
Reading Rescue last night I came across this: Quote: 'He asked me if my wife would try and get some idea from Phoebe about it, so that he could know what to do. It's an akward position, you see, girls,' went on Jack ... 'He seems to be falling in love more and more each day, and if he goes on seeing her - well, there's a limit to every man's endurance, and he may break some day, and say something. If she likes the idea, well and good. If she doesn't, it would mean worry and upset for her; and he would have to hand her over to someone else as a patient ... ' Isn't this rather back to front? Surely, if Dr Peters felt that way he should be 'handing her over to someone else' rather than keeping her on? Or if he 'says something' and she 'likes the idea', she should be 'handed over to someone else'. But Elinor has a mutual liking as a reason for maintaining the doctor-patient relationship. What do you think?

Author:	hilarita [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
It seems rather ethically dubious to us now, but before the NHS it was far commoner to treat your friends/family - if only because you wouldn't charge them a fee! It always felt odd to me that this situation persisted after the NHS started, but perhaps EBD was slow to change, and shortly after that the school moved to Switzerland. I'm not sure how healthcare was managed there, though EBD still seems to have doctors treating their own families.

Author:	Kate [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
I know the Phoebe/Dr Peters storyline is highly dubious ethically, but I can't help loving it. sigh

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
It makes every alarm bell I have ring loudly and persistently, while acknowledging that the doctor-patient relationship is one of EBD's kinks, and that it wouldn't have seemed so ethically dubious at the time of writing. If I were Phoebe, the whole scenario would have creeped me out in a big way - as would the fact that whether or not I was attracted to my doctor was being discussed by my other doctor and all of my next-door neighbours! - and whether or not I returned his feelings, I would have demanded to have another doctor. Whether or not I get well again from a particularly long and painful illness is much more important than whether Dr Peters gets to express his love! EBD has some very odd ideas about 'the limits to every man's endurance' - which sounds faintly like the kinds of things we used to be told, when I was younger, about Men and Their Unstoppable Urges!

Author:	MJKB [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: EBD has some very odd ideas about 'the limits to every man's endurance' - which sounds faintly like the kinds of things we used to be told, when I was younger, about Men and Their Unstoppable Urges! And it was up to every woman not to incite those 'unstoppable urges.'

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Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
yes ... it's odd, isn't it? On the one hand women are traditionally whore or saint, and on the other the whole onus of responsibility for the behaviour of men is firmly placed on the woman. It happens all over the world, in all societies. Ah, nothing changes!!!! So where does this leave us with poor Phoebe in that case? Innocently resonsible for any 'urge' Dr Peters might feel, and as he is apparently unable to control his feelings it's the innocent, unaware party who will have to bear any result of his feelings - either the loss of her specialist doctor who has done so much to alleviate her suffering or reciprocating the feelings and keeping him on. I do think that Dr Peters, as a mature (or is he not?) adult professional man should be made to take full responsibility for the control of his feelings and be made to put them in their proper place so that he can continue to help Phoebe. As his feelings are such that they endangering his ability to continue to be able to help his patient, he is seriously risking his professional position as a doctor. Perhaps Jack should have threatened him with the BMA?

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
The doctor-patient thing seems unethical now, but I'm not sure it would've done at the time and I think it was just meant to be a nice romantic storyline with Phoebe getting to live happily ever after. The idea of Frank being overtaken by his passions to the extent that he was unable to have anything further to do with Phoebe isn't very EBD, though . Jack was living in the same house as Joey but there's never any hint that he felt he wouldn't be able to keep his feelings under control if it went on much longer without them getting together. Leaving the medical issues aside , I quite like the idea of Frank feeling that he's about to "break" ... it's kind of like Mr Darcy going on about how in vain he has struggled but it will not do and Elizabeth must allow him to tell her how ardently he admires and loves her , except that it'd work better if Frank were a bit more dashing and glamorous!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
I quite like it, I think that it was sweet and very romantic - and rather racy for a children's book! Of course nowadays there would be huge implications about the boundaries of a professional relationship (though I could get into a debate about where the boundaries of that are drawn, still) but of its time I don't think that it would be seen as too extraordinary. And, of course, you can never stop true love!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
But ... there's is something just a bit weird about it ... Phoebe is very like his mother, who had the same disease. Frank cared for his mother and loved her dearly (and I want to see that as innocent, since I think today it might be seen as not innocent) - isn't he simply replacing his dead mother with Phoebe? Phoebe has the mother's ring for her engagement ring, although she is asked about whether or not she'd like it. But why offer it in the first place? Or am I over-interpreting the situation?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
julieanne1811 wrote: But ... there's is something just a bit weird about it ... Phoebe is very like his mother, who had the same disease. Frank cared for his mother and loved her dearly (and I want to see that as innocent, since I think today it might be seen as not innocent) - isn't he simply replacing his dead mother with Phoebe? Phoebe has the mother's ring for her engagement ring, although she is asked about whether or not she'd like it. But why offer it in the first place? Or am I over-interpreting the situation? Well, I read it in much the same way! It's obviously lovely that Frank cared for his mother through her illness, but if someone in a real-life situation told me about a doctor who'd cared for his mother in this way and then, after her death, developed an obsessive love for a dependent, rather helpless young woman with the same disease, that would strike me as indicating an unhelpful pattern of attachment. It's very understandable, of course - I know lots of people who are absolutely lost after the death of a relative whom they nursed through illness, because so much of their daily life was bound up in it - but I think any therapist would look askance at it! I don't read anything particularly into the ring, but in Phoebe's place I would feel like some kind of mother replacement...?

Author:	hilarita [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Well, I have my grandmother's engagement ring as my engagement ring. It's not necessarily sinister supplanting, but just a nice sense of heritage, and I can feel a bit closer to her. A friend of mine's engagement ring has been passed down the (male) line for quite a few generations now. (Again, like Phoebe, she was asked whether she wanted to have new one or not.) It'd be a bit more sinister if she didn't get the choice, though!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Oops - I didn't mean to suggest that anyone who has a family ring was ... suspect! No - it's Frank and Phoebe's whole picture. The mother who had the same disease, the son who cared deeply for her, now surplanted by poor Phoebe - same disease, same man in control, and to top it off, the same ring!

Author:	emma t [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Yes, I do think that Phoebe should have been handed to another doctor, but yet at the same time Phoebe may have questioned why that would happen, when she was assigned to him in the first place. I've often wondered at this relationship myself, did Phoebe really have feelings for him, or did she need them pointing out as Joey and the girls did do? As they all wanted it for her to know the happiness they knew.

Author:	Abi [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Kate wrote: I know the Phoebe/Dr Peters storyline is highly dubious ethically, but I can't help loving it. sigh I couldn't have said it better.

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Author:	Alison H [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
I like the idea of lovelorn Frank asking Jack for romantic advice and getting him to ask Joey to sound out Phoebe . It's kind of sweet. I'm just imagining all these masterful doctors actually being very unsure of themselves with women - Jack going "Well, Jem, do you think I should make a move now or wait for Joey to say something?" and Gottfried saying "Look Bernhilda, I really like your friend Gisela: do you think she might like me too?" and so on .

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoebe and Dr Peters
Alison H wrote: I like the idea of lovelorn Frank asking Jack for romantic advice and getting him to ask Joey to sound out Phoebe . It's kind of sweet. It's very natural, too, I think. I think that's why the Phoebe/Frank romance doesn't squick me, because even though Dr Peters is apparently head over heels and barely controlling himself, he doesn't rush in head-first, and is fully prepared to back off if she isn't interested. I also love the way Joey sounds out Phoebe's feelings - by slagging off Frank to see what she says. It's all very Joey-ish, somehow!