Perfect Len!
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#1: Perfect Len! Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:04 am
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Just following on from the discussion about EBD seeming to want Sybil to suffer for her beauty, it just occurred to me that Len Maynard seems to be the one character in the series who has "everything" (by CS standards Laughing ). There are other characters with no obvious faults/problems as schoolgirls, such as Gisela and Gay, but we aren't repeatedly told how pretty/clever/wonderful they are as we are with Len, and most of the major characters do, realistically, have some flaws/problems along the line. For example:

Not pretty enough Laughing - Joey, Simone, Mary-Lou (described as good-looking when she's older, but contrasted unfavourably with Vi and Verity).

Not particularly clever - Marie, Joey (only works hard at history, English and languages), Sybil.

Family problems/difficult childhood/health problems - Robin, Joey, Mary-Lou, Josette, Grizel, Juliet, Margot, Daisy, Beth, Sybil.

Lack of leadership qualities - Frieda, Con.

Personality problems - Grizel, Con (lacks tact and is too dreamy), Margot.

EBD acknowledges that Mary-Lou gets on people's nerves sometimes, in New Mistress, and the young Joey is criticised for being careless and disobeying orders, but Len very rarely does anything wrong! Her only "fault" is that she has no close friends when she's young, but that changes later on, and the only time she's really criticised is by Mary-Lou in Theodora and even then it's acknowledged that she (Len) was only trying to be helpful.

Not quite sure what the point of all this waffle is, just sort of wondered why EBD seems so keen on Len - or do other people not agree with that? She even gives her the ultimate prize Laughing Laughing, of becoming engaged to a doctor, before she's even left school!

#2:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:10 am
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I don't know why EBD is so very keen on Len, but I think it's a great mistake to have a lead character with no flaws. It might make her admirable, but it doesn't make her very sympathetic / easy to relate to. IMO, she's altogether too unnaturally perfect, and such a level of perfection risks making her rather less than a fully rounded character. And a bit dull, too.

Give me flawed, complex Joey or full of personality Mary-Lou any day.

#3:  Author: ElbeeLocation: Surrey PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:23 am
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I feel frustrated when reading the later Swiss books at how Len is always portrayed as perfect. I feel that she dominates the last few books and is involved in almost all the adventures/mis-haps. I wish that some scenes from the later books had featured other girls instead, to make it less monotonous and to let other girls shine a bit more eg Con or Rosamund.

I always assumed that Len was how EBD wished herself to be perceived!

#4:  Author: JenniferGLocation: Durham PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:46 am
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Actually, back when I was reading the later books for the first time aged about 10 or 11, I adored Len. In my experience it's around that age that girls are likely to get affected by severe hero-worship in the form of adoring and wanting to emulate an older girl or woman that they interact with - teacher, head girl, Guide leader etc (well known as the "soppiness" tried to squash in several schools, of course).

In the throes of hero-worship, honestly a girl probably really do think the object of her affections is perfect. So actually, a perfect head girl character to look up to and adore is probably exactly what her readers wanted. Smile

-Jennifer

#5:  Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:05 am
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I don't think Len is that much of an unrealistic character, there are a lot of perfect and slightly dull people out there!

At least EBD didn't Mary-Sue her up too much Very Happy

#6:  Author: RóisínLocation: Ireland PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:09 am
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I don't think she's perfect - she has all of those qualities that you listed Alison, but she's also unnaturally serious and wise for her age (I know that she is the eldest but still) and borders on the boring. She's also in a class that is *way* too old for her when she is just twelve or thirteen. I don't think she is a very entertaining character, and she probably didn't come across as such to any potential friends either Sad

#7:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:19 am
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Mia wrote:
At least EBD didn't Mary-Sue her up too much Very Happy


Yes, indeed. I almost said she was the CS's Mary-Sue in my post above, but restrained myself at the last minute, becuase actually I think EBD wrote various other characters as idealised versions of herself - Hilda and Madge (the perfect headmistresses) and Joey (the effortlessly successful author for girls) - and also living the life she might have aspired to but never acheived - Joey again (the successful author with the loving husband and long family).

I wonder if part of Len's "problem" is that she starred in the books towards the end of EBD's life when perhaps her powers were waning, and her characterisations were suffering accordingly?

#8:  Author: LexiLocation: Liverpool PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:28 am
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I really liked Len when I read the books first time round. I still like her now, even though I can appreciate the character limitations more. I just feel sympathy for her - she seems like a nice person who's always been overloaded with family and school responsibility and has just gone along with what's been expected of her.

#9:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:25 am
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Mmm - I'd really love to see her rebel and announce that there's actually no way she's going either to teach at the CS or to marry Reg, and that being the eldest of the family by half an hour shouldn't necessarily make her more responsible than either Con or Margot

#10:  Author: AlexLocation: Cambs, UK PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:43 pm
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She does get told that she's in danger of becoming interfering. Although, that's a bit rich coming from OOAO.

#11:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:19 pm
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Very rich, Alex.

I think that part of Len's problem is that she's always been described as the responsible one and she feels she has to live up to it.

#12:  Author: AllyLocation: The land of the fording oxes PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:07 pm
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Part of the problem with Len is that we never see her partake in any middles mischief. Somehow, partly because of her ability and random form promotions, she skips those years with her peers. If she could have been part of one or two smallish pranks it would have nudged the edge of the perfectness.

#13:  Author: TanLocation: London via Newcastle Australia PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:09 pm
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I would agree with Ally and Jennie. Unfortunately poor Len lives up to her characterization. The only time we really see her lash out is with Prunella. I would have liked to see her lose her temper on other occasions ...

#14:  Author: LizzieCLocation: Canterbury, UK PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:29 pm
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I must admit that I did raise my eyebrows rather when I saw the following from Con in Prefects:

Quote:
"Your guess is as good as mine. And if you hoped for a peaceful period, Len, you did have a hope! You ought to know by this time that the Chalet School had never yet been famous for producing a gaggle of baby angels among its Middles. We weren’t such models ourselves when we were at that age. I suppose all we can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst."


The only one of the triplets I remember being not such a model in the way being discussed by the prefects was Margot. I am not convinced that being a dreamer or too responsible counts...

#15:  Author: PadoLocation: Connecticut, USA PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:21 pm
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I was going to point out that in Lavender, toddler Len shows a flaw at Stephen's baptism, when she yells at the priest to stop hurting her brother when he begins to cry.

But now I'm wondering if it's foreshadowing her later tendency to be interfering.

#16:  Author: Kathy_SLocation: midwestern US PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:25 am
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I never saw Len as particularly perfect, just as an ordinary nice girl who happens to be a protagonist. She has neither glaring faults nor overwhelming strengths, other than a good work ethic and a sense of responsibility that won't even let her avoid Jack. Actually the fact that she wasn't one of those whose pranks became legend made her seem more "real" to me, and I quite liked the idea that she was still valued in the CS community rather than written off as "boring."

#17:  Author: La Petite EmLocation: Cheltenham PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:52 pm
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In which book does Len fly at Prunella?

#18:  Author: LexiLocation: Liverpool PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:54 pm
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Does It Again

#19:  Author: Loryat PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:51 pm
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When I read the CS books as a child I preferred Con and Margot to Len as I felt they were neglected in favour of Len in the books. While I still feel this is true (with Margot especially) as an adult reading the books I actually really like Len. She's by far the most 'normal' of the CS heroines. I don't see her as unnaturally perfect at all.

#20:  Author: RobLocation: Currently in a rainstorm PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:00 pm
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Reading Three Go, where Mary-Lou first meets the triplets, Stephen, Charles and Anna in the meadow, I found this about Len:

Quote:
A more unselfish child rarely lived. All her family knew that they could have any of her posessions for the asking. She was always the one to give up her wishes to the others too. Not that she was an angel child by any means. She was outrageously untidy, and would have left everything just where she dropped it, had it not been for the vigilance of her mother, who had once declared 'I've suffered from untidyness all my life, and my daughters aren't going to do the same if I can help it!' So Len was made to put things away in their proper place. Very sweet tempered as a rule, when she was roused it took some time to calm her down; and while ready to forgive small offences, she found it hard to overlook anything that really mattered.


For comparison, about Con it goes on to say:
Quote:
Con was generous, but she thought before she made any offers. She was by far the most placid of the three. In her short life, no one had seen her badly upset. She was rather given to daydreaming - or would have been if not for the rest of the family; and she was as tidy as Len was the reverse. Her worse fault was a love for sweet things that led her sometimes to help herself from the sugar basin or the cake tins; but she was slowly beginning to learn control in this direction.


Whilst of Margot, it says:
Quote:
Margot was the most difficult of the three. She was frankly selfish, and possessed of what her father called 'a hair trigger temper'. Luckily both parents were vigilant with faults so obvious, and already she was improving.


Mary-Lou and Clem both later declare themselves as untidy, so I wonder if this is an acceptable trait for EBDs heroines? The above descriptions however seem to set Len up quite clearly as Joey's hallowed successor (in fact the description could quite easily have been of early Joey). Con's dreaminess is already described as a problem and I'm sure her sugar/cake stealing would be considered dishonourable, whilst Margot is already seen as the problem child.
I wonder if one of the reasons we might see Len as perfect is because we can constantly contrast her with her triplet sisters and that EBD felt she had to find roles for all three? If Len had been a singleton like Joey and Mary-Lou, would we have seen a more rounded character perhaps? Hmmm.....

#21:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:25 am
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Rob wrote:
Quote:
If Len had been a singleton like Joey and Mary-Lou, would we have seen a more rounded character perhaps?


It's mentioned by a few characters (I can't find the exact quotes but I'm sure someone else will be able to) that the the triplets had split up Jo's characteristics between them - Len got Jo's responsibleness and the knack of getting under people's skin, Con got her imagination and love of writing and Margot got her naughtiness. Perhaps the problem with Len and the other triplets is that they're each known for certain characteristics and Len and Con got the positive ones (with few serious faults) while Margot got stuck with the characteristics that could be considered negative (especially when taken to extremes). If Len had been a singleton with all these characteristics put together she would have been Jo!


ETA: I found one of the quotes in Barbara:
Quote:
"I wouldn't say that," Miss O’Ryan replied cautiously. "Con has her dreamy side and all her love of and feeling for history. Len has her protectiveness. When did Jo ever fail to rush to the help of anyone who seemed to need it? Len is just the same there. As for Margot, she has all her mother's love of mischief. They've split up her qualities among them; that's all."

#22:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:27 am
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Quote:
She was outrageously untidy, and would have left everything just where she dropped it, had it not been for the vigilance of her mother, who had once declared 'I've suffered from untidyness all my life, and my daughters aren't going to do the same if I can help it!' So Len was made to put things away in their proper place.

Huh. Joey's vigilance evidently didn't have much effect, since Matey was still hauling Len away from supervising prep to tidy her drawers when she was Head Girl. If Len wasn't tidy by then, she never would be.

#23:  Author: LizBLocation: Oxon, England PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:36 pm
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Ooooh! Can you imagine Len in later life being visited by Kim and and Aggie? With one of those homes where you can't see the carpet because of the mess! Or perhaps being on Anthea Turner, Perfect Housewife? Laughing

*sets the bunnies free*

#24:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:34 pm
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I'm surprised that Len is the untidy one as it is a trait of the creative (like Jo and EBD) and more suited to Con. What makes her perfect is that she suppresses that untidiness. Doesn't Margot say something about Len being the tidiest of all of them?

#25:  Author: KatherineLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:50 am
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Hard question, I wouldn’t want to stop at Coming of Of Age because I found it such a let down. Not that Prefects is great but it does seem like a natural point to stop. The obvious answer for me is when Joey leaves school but then I can’t go along with that as then we’d be denied Exile, Gay and Rescue, all of which I love. Wouldn’t have thought of stopping at Barbara but maybe that’s not such a bad idea. Half way though the Swiss books would have felt a bit odd. I think the best solution would be compression, editing of leaving out a few Swiss books. And I’d like to focus properly on more of the second generation. Natalie Mensch for example, a few spin offs would be good, much like drabbles!

#26:  Author: TanLocation: London via Newcastle Australia PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:11 pm
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Mel wrote:
I'm surprised that Len is the untidy one as it is a trait of the creative (like Jo and EBD) and more suited to Con. What makes her perfect is that she suppresses that untidiness. Doesn't Margot say something about Len being the tidiest of all of them?


It is interesting - I am sure at times Len is described as being very tidy, then at other times she is in trouble for her drawers ... an EBDism perhaps?

#27:  Author: claireLocation: South Wales PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:36 pm
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Len being the tidiest of the family doesn't mean that she is tidy, maybe Con and Margot are just a lot messier

#28:  Author: Loryat PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:19 pm
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I think it is an EBDism. However I'm pretty sure that EBD really means for Len to be untidy - sometimes she just forgets that she gave Len any flaws and as usual makes her the paragon.

#29:  Author: Lisa A.Location: North Yorkshire PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:51 pm
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I think Len's "goodness" seems rather forced. I have just read Leader, where it seems that any hint of decency was jumped on as an example of outstanding personal qualities. I feel like we are told that Len is good, rather than it becoming apparent naturally - she isn't one of those characters who "take off by themselves" and develop into something.

#30:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:53 am
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Good point, Lisa. I know that an author creates all his/her characters, but Len's portrayal suffers from our being told about her good points, not by seeing them develop as a result of learning from experiences.

#31:  Author: BeeLocation: Canberra, Australia PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:15 am
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I think the main problem with Len is we never see her as a "wicked Middle", the way we see Jo and Mary-Lou - she never gets a chance! She was off in Quebec, and then when she returned to the Chalet School she was put in a Senior class at twelve or some ridiculous age. Same for Con (which is a shame, because I always thought it might be fun having Con trying out pranks she comes up with for her own stories, seeing how they work out in real life! Hehe.) Even Margot's Middle wickedness isn't quite the same- she's more spiteful and vengeful rather than mischeivous.

So in that respect I always felt kind of sorry for Len. I actually really like her as a character - she's genuinely kind, lovely and helpful, and everlastingly loyal to her friends and sisters, but because we don't see anything other than her being good she becomes boring and sometimes intefering. And then she has both her mother and OOAO as her role models... Rolling Eyes

#32:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:55 am
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I don't see Len's well-behavedness as unrealistic - there are lots of contientious kids who follow rules and don't get into real trouble, they just don't star in books very often.

I do see Len as having too many virtues without any corresponding faults - she's brilliantly clever, a hard worker, musical, good at languages, athletic, well behaved, contientious, responsible, generous, empathic, beautiful, popular, graceful, has good dress sense, and so on. Even her main fault - 'over contientiousness' is mainly seen as a virtue.

I also feel sorry for her. She's always had unrealistic expectations piled on her, and at some point in her life she'll have to face the fact that she can't always guide other people, and that she won't always be the top of the heap.

#33:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:46 pm
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Len actually reminds me of Peggy Bettany, both are pretty, popular, eldest girls of long families, motherly, concientious of siblings, responsible, are prefects then Head Girls, both get engaged young, and both are just a little too good to be true. While I like both Len and Peggy I just don't find them as interesting and well rounded as, say, Bride, Con, or even Margot (whom I don't even like that much).

#34:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:26 am
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macyrose wrote:
Len actually reminds me of Peggy Bettany, both are pretty, popular, eldest girls of long families, motherly, concientious of siblings, responsible, are prefects then Head Girls, both get engaged young, and both are just a little too good to be true. While I like both Len and Peggy I just don't find them as interesting and well rounded as, say, Bride, Con, or even Margot (whom I don't even like that much).


Interestingly, I find Peggy irritatingly perfect, while Len I feel more sorry for. I think Len lacks Peggy's self righteousness, and I get the feeling that her responsiblity was more forced on Len than Peggy. Len is also more guilt ridden when she feels she has failed, where Peggy is more likely to get angry. After all, when Peggy was little she had Joey, Daisy and Robin older than her, so she wasn't the eldest until she was about thirteen.

#35:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:09 am
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I wonder if Len ever was all the things people said she was, or if she had to remind herself constantly to behave in this or that way. Her internal response when she is furious with Prunella in Does It Again is one of the only times we ever see inside her head, and from that description it's clear that she puts a certain amount of pressure on herself not to let her anger at things show.

#36:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:05 pm
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I think Len couldn't help being aware of all the expectations heaped on her. Joey going on and on about how easy it was to have a large family because the older ones looked after the younger ones. Being clever and hardworking. Hearing how she was her mother all over again because of her empathy and understanding. Having the younger girls looking up to her. Since she's an obedient, sweet tempered, non-rebellious girl, Len would do her best to live up to these expectations. If she'd been born with the same qualities, but hadn't been Joey Maynard's daughter and the eldest of eleven, I think she might have turned out differently.

(And all these expectations make it doubly unfair, I think, when Mary Lou lays into her for interfering in her sisters' lives. It's what she's been brought up to do, and 'butting in' is what she's constantly hearing her mother praised for, after all. And in that particular instance, Len is entitled to butt in anyway, as it's her friendship with Ted that Margot is trying to sabotage.)

#37:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:59 pm
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It's also interesting that when Joey was a schoolgirl she didn't have many of those qualities - she was impatient and sharp with people - felt new girls shoukd stand on their own two feet and had no time for even Simone's emotionalism - one of her closest friends. Yes she does intervene with Joyce Linton - but only after Gillian had asked her - not because she had seen there was a problem and thought to fix it.

#38:  Author: RobLocation: Currently in a rainstorm PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:53 pm
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I don't really know whether this is an example of how Len is good by expectation/in the eyes of others or just an example of motherly pride, but it made me think of this thread when I read it!

Quote:
Jo had come back by this time, the proud mother of the winning diver, for Len had beaten everyone in her class and wound up with a beautiful swallow dive - or so her mother declared. Later on, the young lady's father said you could call it a swallow dive if you liked. To him it looked like the contortion of someone who had just taken strychnine by accident! Still there was no doubt that Len was the best diver of them all, and Jo was, as her friends and relatives declared, as proud as a cat with nine tales.

#39:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:37 pm
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I think that's just normal motherly pride. EBD even makes fun of it gently, with Jack's comments. Sport is one of the things the Maynard girls weren't automatically expected to be good at, since Joey as a girl was never especially sporty. (Although Joey as a girl was never very hardworking or academic either, but all the triplets are expected to be.)



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