The CBB :: View topic - The triplets as mini-Joeys

BTW, does anybody find the story about Daniel funny? The one in which Con, when asked what Daniel did in the lion's den, says Daniel bit the lion? Can't for the life of me.

Or, perhaps Margot had a nasty incident with a dentist once, whereas the other twins didn't, and because Jo did nothing to try and ease her fear she is now scared (not exactly 'inheriting', I know, but possibly a more plausible explanation).

I actually think Margot is more like Joey than the others. She has Joey's erratic work habits and inability to stick to subjects she's not keen on. She also has her tactlessness, and poor emotional self control, and disobedient tendencies. In spite of her more unpleasant moments, she has more charisma and the more forceful personality of the triplets. She also shares adolescent Joey's tendency to clash with people she doesn't like. Unlike Joey, however, she has a bad temper, and a nasty streak that comes to the surface periodically, which makes her a more difficult person to deal with.

Plus EBD, having presumably given Jo triplets at her first confinement as a way of reinforcing her 'wholesale' unorthodox personality (ie. the triplets' birth was all about Joeyness, and a kind of biological joke), probably without thinking that the series would be still under way when these babies were in their teens, then has to actually write about all three as they grow up, thereby splitting her narrative attention three ways in a way that I think you can see straining her a bit.

I also wonder whether 'Three Go' was intended to signal the start of a new narrative strand (Mary-Lou, Clem, Verity as major characters) that subsequently got de-railed - as did the attempt to ship the Maynards off to Canada for a few years...*

* How many books were Joey-less, btw? Obviously Shocks, although Jack makes an appearance - were there any before / after?

Not even that one - apart from a number of letters from her, Joey actually appears at the end of term at the School Nativity Play - risking a crossing - i assume by air - with twins Felix and Felicity who could only be three months old at most - even though, the year before, Madge had been forbidden to make a similar journey.

I agree that maybe EBD couldn't escape from the triplets :lol:

, but I think that if that was the case then she could have got round the problem by giving other characters whom we at least knew a bit about more "book space" (I think I've just made that expression up).

Author:	Cat C [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	The triplets as mini-Joeys
We're told quite often than Len is the most like Joey(???) but that Con has inherited her writing talents and love of history / literature and Margot her 'wickedness'. How often do we ever see this coming through in the writing? I'm asking because I was looking at the beginning of Does it again the other day, and I thought I detected echoes of schoolgirl Joey in the way Len came down to the common room and told everyon about her first impressions of Prunella... And then it struck me as odd that presumably EBD quite liked writing about schoolgirl Joey, so one could easily see her continuing to write about her in a mildly disguised way in the form of Len, but mostly she doesn't really.

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
I don't actually see the triplets (apart from Con, perhaps) as being much like Joey at all. Len is conscientious, works hard, rarely gets into trouble (and when she does, her talking-to is usually unjustifiedly harsh) and is very responsible. Joey was never any of these things, particularly never responsible! She was a much more interesting person than Len. I think Len's bust-up with Prunella is the only time where Len deviates from this norm of schoolgirl perfection. Con is dreamier than Joey, though she generally works hard, even at subjects she dislikes. Joey rarely let her writing get in the way of school, and her attempts are rarely described in detail before her efforts in Jo Returns. Younger Con is probably as tactless as young Joey, though! I don't see Margot being like Joey at all, even though she's popular - a lot of girls find her sarcastic and brusque, she has a violent temper through most of the books, is selfish, and rather superficial (except towards the end of the series, and even then, I'm not sure whether she ever displays much kindness). The only thing I can see where she's similar to Joey is in her earlier days, when she's delicate, and doesn't work steadily (and is heavily criticised for it).

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Len is supposed to have Joey's protectiveness, sense of responsibility and leadership qualities, but - other than her obsessive protectiveness of Robin - I can't see that Joey is like that at school at all. Len is made from an early age to feel that she has to be responsible. Joey, being the youngest member of her family by many years and with a history of medical problems, is protected and looked after. If anything, Len's "responsible" attitude is more reminiscent of Madge, who was also forced by family circumstances to take on a lot of responsibility at an early age - although young Madge is a far more appealing character than Len. When Joey's being "heroic" it's doing things like rescuing Rufus, and I just can't imagine Len rushing off without telling anyone where she was going. Con is supposed to have Joey's dreaminess and love of history and literature, but Joey was never all that "dreamy", and young Joey was a very outgoing person whereas Con is very introverted. Margot is supposed to have Joey's sense of mischief, but with Joey it was usually "nice naughtiness", as EBD would say, whereas Margot does some really nasty things. We don't really see Margot doing a lot of "silly" things like putting cornflour in people's hair, and we certainly never see Joey trying to blackmail anyone. I can't see that any of them are like her. Nor is Mary-Lou, who's often described as having "inherited Joey's mantle".

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Mary-Loud doesn't ever really remind me of Joey at all - Joey's butting in usually involves running off up mountains, and early, somewhat tactless Joey really doesn't seem, to me, to be able to 'understand' people in the way that Mary-Lou is supposed too. The only real similarity that I can see is that both were raised by older people alone, although in Joey's case it wasn't so bad. Sorry, a bit off topic. I think that Con would be a lot more like Joey if she was given the chance to come out of herself a little bit. When she gets really angry at Margot for being jealous of Len's new friendship, she does remind me a lot of Joey in the early days with Simone. However, Len takes on a lot of the responsibility, and does tend to boss the other two - although more Con, I think - around a little bit so it is difficult to see all of Con's character. Len could never be like Joey - she is engaged before she leaves school! Anything less like Joey would be hard to find. I think that Margot is very much like Jack, which is nice to see because he doesn't often get a lot of his obvious qualities in his children, but does mean she is a very difficult character. I think she would have been more like Joey if it had been 'nice naughtiness' - I always think it is so nice at the end of 'at the Chalet' when Joey suggests having some pranks, just because there haven't been any yet. Sorry, I'll back away from the keyboard now.

Author:	JS [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Len is too perfect - apart from being untidy and having a 'morbid' tendency to blame herself (I quote Hilda!) - to be Joey. She also has more of a sense of responsibility - Joey was always fighting against growing up but I think that Len begging off being a prefect was actually out of character. She's also supposed to be a butter-in a la Joey and Mary-Lou but her strength of character doesn't come off the page enough for me to make that believable.

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Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
The CBB has talked a lot since I've been here about how EBD appears to have 'forgotten' what young Joey was actually like, and kind of retrospectively reinvents her as much less faulty and interesting. I wonder whether claiming the triplets all inherit bits of her is a function of that same authorial amnesia? Because, as others have said, I genuinely don't see the slightest real resemblance, despite the fact that we're continually told about what traits of hers the triplets have inherited - it's telling, rather than showing. Young Joey's naughtiness and her 'butting in' were completely different to those kinds of behaviour as exhibited by Margot and Len, and, to be honest, the only instance of young Joey actually being 'dreamy' I can think of is is in School At, when Grizel is fascinated by the bustle of Paris, while Joey is dreamy about history and A Tale of Two Cities! She never goes off into poetry dazes like Con, and the only time she's presented as completely wrapped up in her writing, she's already an adult engaged on her first novel. Of course, it makes no sense in any real terms to expect her triplets to be like her - they've had utterly different, much more populated, lives, as triplets with two parents alive and well, at the head of a huge family. The other huge difference is that the triplets have had Adult Joey in their lives, watching over them, endlessly analysing their personalities and which bits they get from her, whereas Joey herself had what I consider a healthier hands-off form of parenting from a sister who was also running a school and falling in love, getting married etc. For all that the triplets continually talk enthusiastically about how their mother is a 'poppet', a more sceptical or realistic novelist might have made something out of the fact that it would be difficult to be the children of a woman who is essentially a celebrity mother... PS. I also think EBD's notions of inherited traits are a bit weird - we're apparently supposed to take Hilda Annersley seriously in Triplets when she says that Margot has 'inherited' her fear of dentists from Joey! As there clearly isn't a Fear of Dentists Gene, we're left with the idea that Joey passed it on by behaviour, which would mean that Len and Con had witnessed it and 'inherited' it just as much!

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Just a quick observation- what differentiates the tiplets from the young Joey is their lack of a sense of humour. The young Joey can actually do funny things and come out with a funny remark, whereas the triplet's humour is generally forced. This is especially true of Len. There's a scene in Reunion -one of my favourite books, where Len is visiting Grizel in hospital and relaying some very unfunny comment made by Joey. Grizel has to beg her to stop because she's laughing so hard and the reader is left wondering what the joke is. I wish Con had featured a bit more because she is, imho, the nicest and most interesting of the triplets. Can't remember who wrote this, but in one of the drabbles I read a while ago, Joey is surprised that Con graduates with a First while Len lags behind with a 2:1. The reason Con comes out on top is that she has far more depth to her than her sister, who is quite mundane. BTW, does anybody find the story about Daniel funny? The one in which Con, when asked what Daniel did in the lion's den, says Daniel bit the lion? Can't for the life of me.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
MJKB wrote: BTW, does anybody find the story about Daniel funny? The one in which Con, when asked what Daniel did in the lion's den, says Daniel bit the lion? Can't for the life of me. I think it's in Does It Again. It's one of those things that were probably very funny at the time to the people who were there, but I can't see why people are still going on about it years later. Everyone says silly things sometimes: it's really not that funny!

Author:	Tor [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
yes. that always smacks of those 'family' legends that you have to listen to being recounted ad infinitum. Every family has them, and to those involved they are hilarious. To others..... However, these little repeated episodes do make the reader feel like part of that slightly unoriginal family! Agreeing with MJKB et al about Con seeming to have the most depth of character, despite her otherwise side-lined role in the triplets/later story-lines. Many moons ago (10 years maybe) when I belonged to FOCS (subscription slipped ) I wrote a story about Con deciding to a English Literature PhD, and worked the old Daniel story into it. Completely lost the story now, but it got published. Wonder if anyone has back copies (I'd be intrigued to see if my teen-age writing is as bad as I remember). usually told by parents about their children.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Just a quick note on the inherited fear of dentists (sorry, I studied Psychology for two years, I couldn't resist): Obviously this fits into the nature/nurture debate, but on either side it would be possible for Margot to 'inherit' the fear but not the other two triplets. Biologists say that phobias are the result of natural selection - so being afraid of the dentist because of pain would be a good survival technique. On the nurture side, it is entirely possible that all three triplets could be affected differently by having the same behaviour exhibited to them by Joey. Or, perhaps Margot had a nasty incident with a dentist once, whereas the other twins didn't, and because Jo did nothing to try and ease her fear she is now scared (not exactly 'inheriting', I know, but possibly a more plausible explanation). Or, of course, it could all be Freudian... Sorry I just had to say that. Ignore me.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Mmmmm Freudian???? Interesting......I think

Author:	Clare [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Or, perhaps Margot had a nasty incident with a dentist once, whereas the other twins didn't, and because Jo did nothing to try and ease her fear she is now scared (not exactly 'inheriting', I know, but possibly a more plausible explanation). That would make sense if she had a bad experience in Canada... Then being told by Madge that Joey had always feared the dentist would 'legitimise' the fear ("If Mum's (sorry, Mamma) scared, then it's OK for me to be scared too.")

Author:	jennifer [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
I actually think Margot is more like Joey than the others. She has Joey's erratic work habits and inability to stick to subjects she's not keen on. She also has her tactlessness, and poor emotional self control, and disobedient tendencies. In spite of her more unpleasant moments, she has more charisma and the more forceful personality of the triplets. She also shares adolescent Joey's tendency to clash with people she doesn't like. Unlike Joey, however, she has a bad temper, and a nasty streak that comes to the surface periodically, which makes her a more difficult person to deal with. But for the others... Take Len - she's overly responsible and contentious, but never comes across as particularly charismatic or attention loving. She's extremely bright and talented at everything plus a hard worker. She's extremely well behaved, very self controlled and emotionally even, never in trouble, and always looks after others. Joey was rather scatterbrained and impulsive, but charming and loved being the centre of attention. She was a leader who hated official responsibility. She did well at the subjects she loved, but terribly at those she disliked. She was mischievous and tended to break out all over the place. She had poor self control, was emotionally volatile and was rather tactless. Or Con. Con is quiet and reserved and keeps most of her emotional and mental development inside. She's very creative, and also dreamy, with trouble staying in the here and now. She's extremely perceptive, but occasionally tactless. She's a hard worker, if not as brilliant as Len. She's not particularly social or athletic, and prefers staying in the background. Joey was creative, but generally very much active in what's going on around her. She's tactless, but not very perceptive. She's gregarious and outgoing and loves people and attention, and is also quite athletic.

Author:	Caroline [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
jennifer wrote: I actually think Margot is more like Joey than the others. She has Joey's erratic work habits and inability to stick to subjects she's not keen on. She also has her tactlessness, and poor emotional self control, and disobedient tendencies. In spite of her more unpleasant moments, she has more charisma and the more forceful personality of the triplets. She also shares adolescent Joey's tendency to clash with people she doesn't like. Unlike Joey, however, she has a bad temper, and a nasty streak that comes to the surface periodically, which makes her a more difficult person to deal with. Child!Joey does exhibit temper on occasion, but it's usually explained away by EBD. And you're so right about the nasty streak in Margot. Plus the petty jealousy which I don't much remember in Joey. Actually I think the key differences between them are (a) charm - Joey has it in spades and Margot doesn't (IMO) and (b) authorial approval. Joey and Margot share all those characteristics you list above but while in Joey they are presented in a positive or forgiving light, in Margot they are suddenly all bad things that require correcting or overcoming or condemnation. I often think that as Joey tells Margot off in a preachy manner for doing exactly the kind of thing she (Jo) used to do all the time as a kid... 'snot fair.

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Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
If each triplet 'inherits' (via what I still find EBD's rather eccentric theories of inheritance) one main element of Joey's personality, it risks makes them rather pallid, secondary characters, doesn't it? Joey herself combines (1) mischief and rebellion, (2) artistic talent and (3) 'butting in' (even if some of this is a retrospective reinvention of her child self by EBD) - but the triplets rather schematically only get one trait each. It makes them less rich and rounded as characters. Plus EBD, having presumably given Jo triplets at her first confinement as a way of reinforcing her 'wholesale' unorthodox personality (ie. the triplets' birth was all about Joeyness, and a kind of biological joke), probably without thinking that the series would be still under way when these babies were in their teens, then has to actually write about all three as they grow up, thereby splitting her narrative attention three ways in a way that I think you can see straining her a bit. Which I'm always rather sorry about. The triplets are virtually the only CS girls we see in a close relationship to parents (especially a mother) we also know well as characters, and I've always wished for a slightly less idealised account of what it must be like for the triplets growing up in a school where their mother is hailed as a kind of Living Spirit of the CS, and where no matter what they do, they probably can't between the three of them, even, over-write her contribution to school legends with their own escapades/successes. Even though the three of them have a 'special position' by virtue of whose daughters they are, it would also be easy to feel as though it was difficult to live up to their universally-loved celebrity mother.

Author:	Cat C [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Quote: Plus EBD, having presumably given Jo triplets at her first confinement as a way of reinforcing her 'wholesale' unorthodox personality (ie. the triplets' birth was all about Joeyness, and a kind of biological joke), probably without thinking that the series would be still under way when these babies were in their teens, then has to actually write about all three as they grow up, thereby splitting her narrative attention three ways in a way that I think you can see straining her a bit. I think there's a lot in that. I also wonder whether 'Three Go' was intended to signal the start of a new narrative strand (Mary-Lou, Clem, Verity as major characters) that subsequently got de-railed - as did the attempt to ship the Maynards off to Canada for a few years...* I suspect by the time the Maynards had been retrieved from foreign parts EBD had given up all hope of being free of Joey+triplets as major characters. Bit like the way Sherlock Holmes got resurrected after the Reichenbach (?sp) Falls episode. * How many books were Joey-less, btw? Obviously Shocks, although Jack makes an appearance - were there any before / after?

Author:	Nightwing [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Cat C wrote: I also wonder whether 'Three Go' was intended to signal the start of a new narrative strand (Mary-Lou, Clem, Verity as major characters) that subsequently got de-railed - as did the attempt to ship the Maynards off to Canada for a few years...* I think Mary-Lou does play a fairly prominent role at least until Excitements, which to me is the book which really heralds the triplets as the next major characters. Even then, she plays a very important role right until her last term at school. The problem comes once she has actually left. EBD only really has the triplets and there friends left at school as developed characters, and the way that her new heroine, Jack, is introduced, means that she is intrinsically linked with Len.

Author:	Lesley [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Cat C wrote: * How many books were Joey-less, btw? Obviously Shocks, although Jack makes an appearance - were there any before / after? Not even that one - apart from a number of letters from her, Joey actually appears at the end of term at the School Nativity Play - risking a crossing - i assume by air - with twins Felix and Felicity who could only be three months old at most - even though, the year before, Madge had been forbidden to make a similar journey.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Lesley wrote: Not even that one - apart from a number of letters from her, Joey actually appears at the end of term at the School Nativity Play - risking a crossing - i assume by air - with twins Felix and Felicity who could only be three months old at most - even though, the year before, Madge had been forbidden to make a similar journey. Ahh, but Madge was the delicate, nice Lady Russell. Joey will always be Joey.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Joey doesn't feature in The Chalet School in the Oberland IIRC: she's talked about but I don't think we actually "see" her. One of the things that I really like about the late Armiford and the St Briavel's books is that there isn't a heroine: Daisy, Gay, Peggy, Bride, Tom and various other people all play important parts at different times without anyone being a focus in the way that Mary-Lou and Len are later. Even in Tyrol when Joey's still at school, people like Margia and Evvy and Corney, and for that matter Marie and Frieda and Simone, are more important in their own right than Hilary and the two Lesleys or Rosamund and Ted ever are. I agree that maybe EBD couldn't escape from the triplets , but I think that if that was the case then she could have got round the problem by giving other characters whom we at least knew a bit about more "book space" (I think I've just made that expression up). We don't even see poor Ros as Head Girl, and Ailie and Janice and Judy don't get nearly enough "book space" for my liking .

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The triplets as mini-Joeys
Alison H wrote: I agree that maybe EBD couldn't escape from the triplets , but I think that if that was the case then she could have got round the problem by giving other characters whom we at least knew a bit about more "book space" (I think I've just made that expression up). I think 'book space' is a rather good expression - and I agree that this would have helped out the later books. But I think in the Swiss books, EBD has a tendency to land herself with too many characters for her 'book space', and panics slightly because there are too many of them to be dealt with in the time available. I remember noticing it in A Future, where you have all the Maynards and Richardsons and Melanie Lucas at Die Blumen and EBD spends the whole time trying to think of ways of getting rid of the boys and babies so she can concentrate on the others, and in Reunion, where she reintroduces twenty old characters the reader is dying to hear about, but then spends half their stay breaking them up into groups small enough to deal with, so we never get to hear about half of them - does Juliet even get a single line? I think there are simply so many characters at this point in the series, that her book space is potentially over-crowded in general, so she tends to stick to the characters who absolutely have to be written about, and that's always the triplets, slightly unfortunately...