The CBB
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Matey and Joey's relationship
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7218

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Matey and Joey's relationship

Was just reading Goes To It and got thinking about Matey's adoration of Joey and the way EBD regularly writes about it, and the fact that I never think the dynamics of their relationship get fully fleshed out:

Quote:
’ Her sharp eyes dwelt lovingly on the delicate, sensitive face. Wild horses wouldn’t have dragged it from Matron, but Jo was her darling. She had nursed her through one serious illness and various minor complaints in her school-girl days. She had scolded her for the good of her soul, and her criticisms had been unsparing at times. All the same ‘Matey,’ as all the girls called her, would have willingly laid down her life for Jo at any time.


This is very much the way EBD always describes Matey's feelings for Joey - Joey is always Matey's 'darling', though 'wild horses wouldn't drag it from her', and she seems to express her affection for her mostly by scolding. I just got thinking - why? Yes, EBD makes Joey be almost universally popular, but why does Matey's partiality for her seem to go above and beyond the fondness of many of the other CS staff who've known her since her schooldays? Yes, Matey is probably unusually CS-focused, with little life outside the school, and has known Joey a long time, and seen her grow up, but you could say the same for lots of the older mistresses, and there's no suggestion anyone else, even Hilda or Bill, would willingly lay down their life for Joey!

EBD never really fleshes out the reasons why Joey is such a favourite with brusque, busybodyish Matey, although she repeats it throughout the series, rather as she does Anna's (similar?) adoration of Joey. We seldom - apart from Matey being scathing about Malvina Wins Through or after her sister's death - see them have very significant interactions. It's not (as with Cornelia and Mademoiselle) that Matey was a substitute mother to Joey, who always had Madge close by. I could understand it more easily if it was Hilda Annersley who was so enormously fond of Joey, as they have clearly become very close friends and mutual supports by the Swiss books, despite the age gap.

Are we supposed to see Matey's fondness for Joey as just another instance of her popularity? What does Joey make of Matey's particular affection for her? It's clear she knows about it from her schooldays onward - though I'm not sure how, given that Matey mostly just scolds her! - but I don't know whether she has reciprocal strong feelings of affection for Matey...?

Edited to fix typo.

Author:  Artemis [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I've always assumed it was a granny-ish or motherly affection - Matey has no children of her own, perhaps it's natural she would tie to one in particular

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I think that the hint is in that Matey nursed her through a serious illness; to know Joey well enough to be able to look after her health - like the time she scolds Matron Besly (?) about not noticing her overly pale pallour - she must have been fairly close to her. I also always get the suggestion that unlike other teachers Matey has to spend most of her holidays at the school as well, sorting out linen and various other tasks, so especially in the Swiss years she must have seen more of Joey than other teachers.

Plus the other teachers do have friendships with each other as well, but as has been discussed on here before Matey seems to be separate from many of them, so Joey must have felt like a friend at least a little bit away from the school.

I do also wonder whether Matey is like an older version of Grizel or Juliet, and has made the school her home and been adopted into its family, so feels close to Joey, who is rather the daughter when the school starts but later becomes the matriarch - if that makes sense?

Author:  emma t [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Everyone does seem to fall at Joey's feet, and she never has trouble making friends anywhere she goes. Maybe the feelings that Matey has for Joey, are for the simple fact that she is maybe like the daughter she never had? Sometimes, EBD does go over the top in the way people do tend to adore Joey, and others never get a look in.

I am not so sure how Joey feels about this; maybe she just takes for face value, that Matey has her best interests at heart, and therefore carrys on as normal. If normal is the right word for this relationship! We know that Joey is the favourite of EBD's characters, so it stands to reason that such relationships are going to be formed, though Matey does not show her feelings out right to Joey, as this would not be a good thing to do; at least that is something, I imagine!

It also makes me wonder what Madge thinks about the relationship. Does she think it is healthy for a member of her staff to have such feelings for her sister? Then again, they are a different type of school, and people are closer.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

emma t wrote:
It also makes me wonder what Madge thinks about the relationship. Does she think it is healthy for a member of her staff to have such feelings for her sister? Then again, they are a different type of school, and people are closer.


Gosh, wasn't intending in the least to suggest Matey's feeling for Joey went beyond affection, or were in any way sexual! :shock: I was so used to the repetition of Joey being Matey's heart's darling etc throughout the series I never took much notice, and then I thought that this claim in Goes to It that Matey would willingly lay down her life for Joey was a huge claim on EBD's part! Then I started to think, well why does this woman, who is mostly presented as a curmudgeonly old battleaxe obsessed with drawer inspections and mending, like Joey out of all the naughty CS girls she's scolded and nursed?

I suppose for me it's the only odd or interesting element in Matey's character - apart from that one preference for Joey, she's pretty much a stereotype of the Crusty old Matron with a secret soft spot (that emerges occasionally in kindly tucking in some miscreant after they've cried themselves to sleep). The only thing that stands out as unusual from Cartoonish Battleaxe Matron is her favouritism, and things like that making herself look potentially ridiculous in front of a new colleague when she refuses indignantly to acknowledge that there could be any grounds for viewing Joey as anything other than the CS's most delightful girl!

I suppose it's just another instance of Joey charming everyone she comes into contact with - only Matey isn't the easily impressed type, and she fulminates against girls who give her extra work - I would have said she'd be equally likely to loathe Joey as a nuisance for her various illnesses/toothaches/standing in draughts etc!

Author:  Cel [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I always (rightly or wrongly) think of Matey as a lonely person, and somebody who doesn't have much going on in her life aside from the school. Which I would never think about Hilda Annersley, even though on the face of it they're both unattached middle-aged women who spend most of their time at their place of work. But you get the sense with Hilda that she has plenty of outside interests and company - I can easily imagine her holidaying with friends or taking trips to the theatre, but it's hard to see prickly Matey in the same scenarios.

That's why (getting back to the topic!) it makes sense to me that Matey would latch onto somebody warm and open-hearted like Joey - the person who we're always told embodies the spirit of the school - and pour all her affection onto her. For all her toughness, Matey is a needy person.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I think it's partly that EBD expects everyone to be obsessed with Jo. We're told that Frau Braun "adored her and thought there was no-one like her" (why??!), and that Frau Pfeifen "almost wept for joy" on seeing Madge and Jo (2 people who'd stayed at her guest house for a few weeks 7 years earlier) again. & Elisaveta is always telling everyone that Joey is her best friend, and even names José after her, yet Joey is clearly much closer to a lot of other people and sometimes seems to forget that Elisaveta exists.

There does seem to be a particular thing with Matey, though - there's no suggestion that Hilda, Nell, Mlle de Lachennais or any of the other long-serving staff members feel quite so strongly about Jo - and it's never really clear why. Same thing with Mlle Lepattre and Cornelia - the reasons why Corney regards Mlle as a second mother are never really made clear. It would make sense that Matey felt lonely and latched on to someone, but it would be more logical for that to've been either a senior colleague or else someone like Robin (small, cute-ish, needing a lot of looking after).

Author:  Tor [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I always thought of it as EBDs way to 'humanise' Matey, and make it clear to her readers that although Matey was something of a domestic tyrant, she was a big softy on the inside.

Because, obviously, every right-minded person loves Joey ( :wink: ), and so, even with prickly battle-axe evidence to the contrary, but showing that Matey loves Joey too indicates the soundness of Matey.

But I also like Cel's character reading of the situation.

Author:  Clare [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

emma t wrote:
I am not so sure how Joey feels about this; maybe she just takes for face value, that Matey has her best interests at heart, and therefore carrys on as normal. If normal is the right word for this relationship! We know that Joey is the favourite of EBD's characters, so it stands to reason that such relationships are going to be formed, though Matey does not show her feelings out right to Joey, as this would not be a good thing to do; at least that is something, I imagine!

Isn't there a scene where Joey hugs Matey, and Matey shrugs her off saying that her uniform was fresh on and that she wanted it to last the week, but "her heart glowed to the cause of the wrinkles", and Joey runs off knowing that only she could have gotten away with it. To me it indicates Joey is aware that she is Matey's "darling" but I don't recall her really abusing it...

Author:  emma t [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
emma t wrote:
It also makes me wonder what Madge thinks about the relationship. Does she think it is healthy for a member of her staff to have such feelings for her sister? Then again, they are a different type of school, and people are closer.


Gosh, wasn't intending in the least to suggest Matey's feeling for Joey went beyond affection, or were in any way sexual! :shock: I was so used to the repetition of Joey being Matey's heart's darling etc throughout the series I never took much notice, and then I thought that this claim in Goes to It that Matey would willingly lay down her life for Joey was a huge claim on EBD's part! Then I started to think, well why does this woman, who is mostly presented as a curmudgeonly old battleaxe obsessed with drawer inspections and mending, like Joey out of all the naughty CS girls she's scolded and nursed?


Sorry, hope I didn't cause offence with my post, I wasn't implying that at all! :oops: Again, I apologise if I upset anyone!! :oops:

Author:  Tor [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Even if you were implying that, we wouldn't be offended!

Author:  fraujackson [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Cel wrote:
I always (rightly or wrongly) think of Matey as a lonely person, and somebody who doesn't have much going on in her life aside from the school. Which I would never think about Hilda Annersley, even though on the face of it they're both unattached middle-aged women who spend most of their time at their place of work. But you get the sense with Hilda that she has plenty of outside interests and company - I can easily imagine her holidaying with friends or taking trips to the theatre, but it's hard to see prickly Matey in the same scenarios.


I can't remember which book it is exactly (one of the Swiss series I think), where Matey's sister dies and Matey is on the verge of a breakdown with grief. IIRC, Hilda comes to Jo and explains the situation to her, and Jo insists on Matey coming to her and Jack for rest and nursing. I remember a scene that I always found incredibly moving, where Jo feeds Matey soup and nurses her very tenderly - as if there is a deep and reciprocal relationship here (it reads as more than Jo just being perfectly and typically Jo-ish, if that makes sense.) It's to Jo that Matey finally breaks down and cries, so there's some kind of trust there, rather than the hierarchical nurse/favourite nursling relationship.

Matey also says, 'There's no one left to call me Gwynneth now', and mentions having no more friends or family, so I think Cel's right in her character definition. But I also agree with all the people who find this relationship mysterious and incompletely defined - I'd like to hear more about Jo's side of it especially ! (Until Matey makes the Gwynneth comment, it's apparently never occured to Jo to start using Matey's first name, although she's happily been on first-name, adult, terms with people like Hilda or Bill for donkeys years !)

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

emma t wrote:
Sorry, hope I didn't cause offence with my post, I wasn't implying that at all! :oops: Again, I apologise if I upset anyone!! :oops:


Not in the least, speaking for myself! And am rather enjoying an entirely unfounded and unfair reading of Matey as a kind of Mrs Danvers from Rebecca, obsessively keeping Joey's former cubicle in apple-pie order long after she leaves school, as if she might one day return to her schooldays... :D

I like Tor's point that Matey's unspoken preference for Joey does humanise a character we never really get to know anything at all about, and who can seem like a gruff stereotype who is literally and metaphorically never out of uniform. And I suppose it's harmless favouritism from EBD's point of view (I can't think of another single suggestion that any member of the CS staff at any period has 'favourites', though it's a plot that comes up often in other school stories...?) because it never seems to alter Matey's behaviour towards Joey at all during her schooldays - she doesn't give her an inch as regards tidiness and health and scolds her thoroughly at every opportunity! No other girl ever seems aware of it, either - no one ever gets Joey to try to get Matey to agree to something 'because you're her blue-eyed boy'.

And when you think of it, tearing the first draft of someone's first novel to shreds so totally (having insisted on reading it despite Joey's reluctance) is an extraordinary act for an authority figure who is very fond of the young author in question! I can understand Matey being crotchety with Joey when she was supervising her health as a schoolgirl, but wouldn't she have been afraid that calling her first book 'rubbish' would damage Joey's confidence as a writer and/or turn Joey against her? It seems unnecessarily hurtful, when she could have left well alone - it's not as though Joey asked for her opinion!

ETA: Why, in fact, does Matey ask to read Malvina? Is it simply because she's dying to read Joey's novel, or does she suspect it's bad and that Joey needs her advice on characterisation? If so, does that mean she's been snooping in the MS already when doing her rounds?

Author:  ammonite [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Quote:
Why, in fact, does Matey ask to read Malvina?


Maybe she knows Joey might let her rather than giving it to any of the Mistresses to read as to Joey it might still feel like handing in Prep. Matey probably won't know her English style and will give her a fresh perspective.

As to why Joey is Matey's favourite maybe it could have something to do with the supposition that whilst many of the CS pupils may have written back to Hilda or other Mistresses , they were unlikely to write to Matron. Joey has always accepted Matron as one of the staff and acknowledged her as such and therefore Matey likes her for it.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Alison H wrote:
Same thing with Mlle Lepattre and Cornelia - the reasons why Corney regards Mlle as a second mother are never really made clear.


This is a good comparison to make, I think, because with both Matey and Jo and Corney and Mlle, I've always assumed there was an "off-screen" relationship implied - as in, we never see either relationship, but I don't think either is far-fetched. Mlle doesn't have the same understanding that Madge does, but I think her gentle nature would really appeal to a girl like Cornelia, particularly since she's never had a female authority figure (as far as we know) in her life before, and I imagine she would have spent a fair bit of time with Mlle in her early days at the school!

Slightly OT, sorry, but it strikes me that in the early books we often see the Headmistresses in a role of "mother" to the girls - Madge to Juliet, the Robin and Joey, of course, Mlle to Cornelia and Bill to Jacynth. When the family atmosphere of the school disappears the mothering is mostly left to Joey, and I think that's sad - we don't really see any girls in the later books with that sort of connection to Hilda (although there are still some nice moments - Joan crying in her lap, and her doing Ted's hair!)

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Just thinking about it, it sounds more like a domestic relationship than a school relationship. In school stories, that sort of adoration is - as despised by Anti-Soppists :wink: - usually felt by a pupil for an older/more charismatic pupil or a mistress, or maybe even by a junior mistress for a senior mistress. When an author writes about an adult feeling like that towards a child/younger person, it's generally a relationship between a long-serving domestic employee and the "young master/mistress" of the family for whom they work. It wouldn't seem odd if we were told that Anna would lay down her life for one of the Maynard children, or perhaps "Cookie" for Grizel, but it does seem rather strange when the people concerned are a school matron and a former pupil.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I think the difference for me with Cornelia having seen Mlle Le Pattre as a mother figure is that, although we're only told about it retrospectively, when Corney faints on hearing of her death - and clearly it wasn't generally known, or the CS authorities would have broken the news more kindly to her - we are actually told it by EBD, even the relationship happens 'offscreen'. Plus it makes sense in an obvious way - Corney is motherless with a travelling father, and Mlle is a gentle, motherly type who dealt with a lot of her earlier misbehaviour. With Joey and Matey, we're continually told about Matey's fondness as though it's always been there, but it's not really explained, and nor do we know whether Joey feels a reciprocal fondness in return. If Matey were to die suddenly, like Mlle, would Joey have been as devastated as Corney?


Alison H wrote:

When an author writes about an adult feeling like that towards a child/younger person, it's generally a relationship between a long-serving domestic employee and the "young master/mistress" of the family for whom they work.


That does help make sense of things, if we see Matey as closer to EBD's stereotypical strict-but-devoted devoted upper servant/housekeeper/nanny in relation to Joey - like, say, Richenda's nanny, or Morag in Jean of Storms without the extreme religion -- rather than more like a mistress. I can't imagine EBD writing about Bill or Maynie or Miss Ferrars or any of the mistresses having a particular soft spot for a CS girl - it would seem both rather soppy and potentially unfair. Aren't we told that Anna would happily lay down her life for her mistress too?

Just having a vision of someone asking around the CS staffroom about whether individual mistresses would take a bullet for Joey and imagining the responses.

'Have you taken leave of your senses?'

'Gosh, no - I mean, I like Joey, but...'

'No comment!'

:D

Author:  andydaly [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

It reminds me of the friendship of Rosamund Redding and Mary Silver in What Katy did at School, one highly extrovert, warm and charming, the other quiet and finding sharing her thoughts and feelings excruciating - while Mary Silver is shy rather than intensely private like Matey, the characteristics seem to balance each other out in a similar way.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I'm not sure I've ever considered it but thinking about the idea now, I wonder if the bond was forged when Jo was so ill and nearly died, so that Matey would almost have a superstitious feeling that this was a 'special' life, a gift to her because it was her skill and devotion that brought the girl round. (Quite unconscious reasoning there, of course.)

Thereafter, I can see Matey keeping a very close, watchful eye on Jo and being extra strict with her, partly to conceal her own emotional attachment; and perhaps with an inkling that Jo - popular, much-loved, adored & careless Jo - might need the occasional brake on her. (Not sure if that's clear but I mean Matey might think that too much adoration isn't good for anyone, particularly a growing girl).

(NB there's a quotation somewhere about hiding your love, not sure where from:
'Perhaps you were right to dissemble your love, but why did you kick me downstairs?)

Author:  skye [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

When late I attempted your pity to move,
Why seemed you so deaf to my prayers?
Perhaps it was right to dissemble your love
But--why did you kick me downstairs?
- John P. Kemble, The Panel (act I, sc. 1),
quoted from "Asylum for Fugitive Pieces"

Author:  sealpuppy [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

:) Thank you, Skye! Not sure I've ever seen the whole quotation and it's not quite the meaning I thought! I can see Matey dissembling her love in the sense of not showing overt favouritism, but it's left to 21st century friends of Joey to want to give her a kick now and then!

Author:  claire [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I think it's because she nursed her through such a potentially fatal illness it gives you a sense of belonging and you care about what happens to that person next

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

claire wrote:
I think it's because she nursed her through such a potentially fatal illness it gives you a sense of belonging and you care about what happens to that person next


A little like that proverb - that if you save a man's life you're responsible for him forever afterwards. (I googled it but I can't find the exact phrase, sorry!)

Author:  Clare [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

From the Talmud: "Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Was Matey actually on the spot to nurse schoolgirl Joey through her closer brushes with death, though? I don't think she is in Rivals, because Joey's sickroom is at St Scholastika's, and I think the only non-doctor present is a nurse who seems to be a stranger, and of course Matey hadn't yet come to the CS when Joey is ill with 'brain fever' in School At... My memories of their medical interactions seem to be mostly small things, like Joey overexerting/exciting herself and being sent to bed, or trying to hide her toothache.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Matey wasn't there when Joey had her various serious illnesses in the first couple of books, as you say, and there was no mention of her being involved in nursing Joey in Rivals. I don't think anyone is nursed through a serious illness at the school after the first few books: people are generally taken to hospital or the San, and we don't get anyone undergoing emergency surgery in the school san as we do with Sally Hope in Malory Towers (IIRC?).

It's one of those weird instances when I wonder whether EBD reinvented history to suit herself (which I totally sympathise with, because it's very tempting to do it if writing a series, even with drabbles!), or had an idea in her head but never wrote it down, like with Cornelia and Mlle, Mary-Lou supposedly being the lynchpin of the school lacrosse team and various other things :roll: .

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Presumably Matey would have nursed Jo through the measles epidemic which happens between Princess and Head Girl, but I suspect the "serious illness" is meant to be the one in Rivals and EBD either forgot about what actually happened, or reinvented it, as Alison said. Or perhaps there was another illness somewhere that never rated a mention, as everyone was used to Joey nearly dying by then!

Author:  Miss Tinsel [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I wondered whether it was included chiefly as a testament to Joey's much-mentioned charm, ie it was easy for any reasonably pleasant pupil to endear herself to the likes of Miss Annersley, but only someone possessing Jo's extreme degree of it can coax an affectionate response out of a crusty figure like Matey...

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I'd like to speak as a former boading house matron ... I worked in a large boarding school for senior boys. My house had around 60 boys in it. I never felt for any of the the depth of love Matey felt for Jo - as in 'would have willingly laid down her life for Jo at any time'.
But I did truly, especially, love some of the boys. And I can't always account for it.
One of my 'favourites', a dear, dear boy, was troubled and had a farctured home-life, but then so did others. Coming back from my day off late one night I was greeted by other boys in his year, calling me to come quickly. He was sobbing in the lift room. I closed the door and sat on the table next to him and listened. What he said made me weep, too. I don't mean I lost it - I was the adult who had to comfort him, but I felt his despair to a depth I didn't, with others. I heard just a few months ago that he died suddenly and unexpectedly. He had that cardiac disease that young fit men can have and not know about. I still miss him and wonder if I did everything I could to help. I think I did, but you know how it is.
Another of the boys who is now a young man has remained my dearest friend. We see each other often and speak on the phone frequently. Again, it is friendship, pure and simple, but I can't account for it ... There is a 20-year age difference but it makes no odds - we're friends, and I would go a long way to help him and love him as a friend.
So when it comes to Matey and Jo, perhaps it was one of those unexplained friendships that happen in life which are nothing to do with age or position. Of course, the friendship couldn't have come to fruition until Jo had grown up, but once she had, there it was.
This thread has reminded me of my dear boy. I don't want to sound soppy, and I'm not a crier, usually. But this has made me cry, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I look forward to reading where this one goes ...

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

((JulieAnne)) - I'm so sorry about your former pupil.

Following the very sad deaths of several young sportsmen in Britain and Europe from this in recent years, awareness of the condition's been raised and more's being done about screening people for it and hopefully that'll help reduce the number of these tragedies: it's so frightening the way that young, fit people can be struck down like that. I'm so sorry about his death, and I'm sure you did everything you could to help him with his problems at school.

&, as you say, unexpected friendships do develop sometimes. Matey always seems rather isolated from the other staff members, except maybe Nurse whom we never learn very much about (not even her name!).

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I've been thinking about your use of the word 'pupil' today, Alison ... When I worked at the school it was left to the matron to decide how she wanted to be addressed. I let the boys use my Christian name because all my working life I had been called by such. Only a few matrons preferred to have their surname used, as in 'Miss Whatever'.
Since I've left, the school has ruled that matrons should be addressed as 'Miss XXXX'. I have often wondered what the relationships between pupils and matrons is like there now.
All Joey's time as a child, or girl, at school she had to use the proper address to Matey, even if it was 'Matey'. 'Gwyneth' certainly wouldn't be allowed!
That means that Joey never had the same kind of close friendship with Matey that she had later. Using Christian names suggests a degree (!) of equality, which wouldn't have worked in the CS at all while Joey was a girl at school, and it's interesting then to wonder how Joey moved from being a child relating to Matey, to being an adult relating on equal terms.

Author:  cal562301 [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

julieanne1811 wrote:
I've been thinking about your use of the word 'pupil' today, Alison ... When I worked at the school it was left to the matron to decide how she wanted to be addressed. I let the boys use my Christian name because all my working life I had been called by such. Only a few matrons preferred to have their surname used, as in 'Miss Whatever'.
Since I've left, the school has ruled that matrons should be addressed as 'Miss XXXX'. I have often wondered what the relationships between pupils and matrons is like there now.
All Joey's time as a child, or girl, at school she had to use the proper address to Matey, even if it was 'Matey'. 'Gwyneth' certainly wouldn't be allowed!
That means that Joey never had the same kind of close friendship with Matey that she had later. Using Christian names suggests a degree (!) of equality, which wouldn't have worked in the CS at all while Joey was a girl at school, and it's interesting then to wonder how Joey moved from being a child relating to Matey, to being an adult relating on equal terms.


Even so, IIRC, even as an adult, Joey continues to call her Matey. The only time I can remember her calling her Gwyneth, though I'm open to correction, is after Matey's sister dies and she is sad because there is no one left to call her Gwyneth now. As far as I remember, Joey and Jack (with others) make a decision to call her Gwyneth from then on, but from the way EBD writes, I can't remember anyone calling her anything but Matey in subsequent books.

Mind you, that could be another EBDism!

If Matey were a special nickname that only Joey used, that would be different, but I don't see how using the same nickname as everyone else is meant to show their special relationship, if they had one.

Author:  Lesley [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

It's not just Jo who calls Matey 'Matey' - everyone does. When her sister dies she actually mentions that no-one will now use her name.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I always find that quite sad. I think it was meant to be an affectionate nickname, but a nickname that's an abbreviation of a job title, rather than a personal nickname or an abbreviation of the person's own first name or surname, just doesn't seem that affectionate to me. Also, as with so many other things with Matey it makes her seem more of an upper servant than someone on a par with the teaching staff: Jo, Hilda and the other calling her "Matey" seems a bit like adults addressing someone as Cookie or Nanny.

& the girls would never have addressed members of the teaching staff to their faces as Bill, Charlie, Ferry, Willy, Plato or whatever other nicknames they were known by.

At least Matey did have a name, though, which was more than poor Nurse ever did ...

Author:  Thursday Next [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

The girls do not call her Matey - they actually call her Matron to her face. Only Joey and the staff actually address her as Matey.

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I always thought that the fact that everyone calls her "Matey" - even Joey, the flower of her heart - says more about Matey than it does about anyone else. She always maintains an air of authority, even among the staff, and I think she holds herself apart from the others, even though most of them care a great deal about her. I suspect that she's never invited anyone to call her by her first name and no one has ever dared to ask, but they made "Matey" of it to at least show some affection. It's not until a moment of weakness, when her sister dies, that she's able to actually hint to someone that they might be able to call her by her first name.

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Alison H wrote:
I always find that quite sad. I think it was meant to be an affectionate nickname, but a nickname that's an abbreviation of a job title, rather than a personal nickname or an abbreviation of the person's own first name or surname, just doesn't seem that affectionate to me. Also, as with so many other things with Matey it makes her seem more of an upper servant than someone on a par with the teaching staff: Jo, Hilda and the other calling her "Matey" seems a bit like adults addressing someone as Cookie or Nanny.


Yes, exactly, like that time in Exile that was discussed on another thread a while back, where Joey brings Janie Lucey into the linen room of the new CS building on Guernsey, and introduces Janie to Matey as 'Mrs Lucey' but Matey to Janie as 'Matey', with the distinct implication that she's a 'treasure' of an upper servant, rather than a social equal.

The post that Julieanne made about her particular fondness for a pupil made me think about Matey and Joey during her schooldays - Matey's fondness for Joey would be much more understandable, I think, if there were ever any indication that Joey confided in her at moments of stress etc. But she never does, that I can think of - even after Madge leaves the school, she's still nearby, and Joey seems more likely to confide in/cry on the shoulder of Mademoiselle at periods of unhappiness like the Robin's illness. Later still, it's Hilda who becomes her chief friend on the staff.

I think that's why the Matey/Joey relationship reads oddly to me at times, because there seems relatively little basis for Matey's deep love for Joey - she doesn't nurse her through any of her brushes with death, and there doesn't seem to be any particular indication that Joey and she had any significant emotional interaction during Joey's schooldays. All we get told from time to time is that Joey knows she is Matey's darling. I know she's lovely to her when Matey's sister dies, but I can't remember a single indication that Joey feels any kind of reciprocal love before that time. Which makes me feel sad for Matey, who does emerge as a solitary figure.

Author:  ammonite [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I am currently dong research into servants for my thesis and in one of the books I have been reading there was a description by a Matron of a boys school in the 1930s of her role. It is fascnating and Matey and all the other matrons were treated better than se was.
It reads:
'In the early thirtes I was Matron of a boys prep school and as such was classed as an 'upper domestic servant'. by todays standards conditions were primitive beyond belief.
All drinking water was fetched from the village. It was the whole time job of on of the 'house boys' to fill and light all the oil lamps in the school. My boys went to be by candlelight which I lit by carrying around a small oil lamp and taper.
Clean sheets were provided for staff and pupils at the beginning of term and again at half term - we could not bath more than once a fortnight - guess what the boys beds were like!
I did the boys mending,was responsible for them when they weren't in class, taught them when a master was absent - made the butter by hand when there wasn't anyone else to do it. PLayed bridge twice a week and was expected to lose as the Rector got angry if he didn't win. I set rat and mouse traps, and entertained the Rectors guests. For all this I received 10s a week - this of course for 36 weeks of the year. THe rest of the time I was expected to keep myself.
In spitehof this I enjoyed the life. I was lucky enough to have a family to go home to.
The 'house' boys lived together in an attic with just their beds - no carpet on the floor and neither had I. When the Rector found I was being brought a cup of tea from his pot wasn't I told off!'
I wonder if the matrons had better conditions in the CS straight away because the rest of the servants were Austrian and of course she couldn't associate with them, so it had to be the staff. Although even then there must have been some distance between them.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

It's interesting reading these post, especially the ones about the social status of Matey ... as a matron in the boarding school where I worked I had the feeling that people did not know where, or how to place us. We were 'neither fish, flesh, fowl nor good red herring', and it made our position very unclear in lots of ways.
We were not teachers, who had the highest place in the school, and we were not domestic staff, who were someway down the list.
When the school photo was taken (every two years), the teachers dressed in their gowns, and we matrons dressed in our usual clothes. Jokingly I said that I should wear a gown because I have a degree, but it wasn't taken as a joke...!
Probably because the school is very old, and mostly male, it has grown up withh a very male point of view, which is rather set in stone now. Any attempt to change the way things are done (in pastoral terms) was not encouraged and it was this that led me to finally move on.
They really did try to 'be nice' to us matrons, but the fact that they had to 'try', rather than simply being nice, made our position more obvious. we were not consulted on things which came directly within our job remit, and decisions would be made which we had to implement, whether or not we had a view on the matter. The job very much felt as though we were some kind of beloved servant - a treasure as someone has said.
I did love the job and I understand why things are the way they are at the school, although it doesn't make for a comfortable working position for female non-teachers.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

It's interesting: Matron was in a very ambiguous position - far more so than Rosalie, who wasn't part of the teaching staff but seemed to be treated as such. She dealt with things like the laundry, which were more in the domestic staff sphere, and I can imagine her clashing with Karen in areas where their remits overlapped, but socially she was more part of the teaching staff.

I wonder how Barbara Henschell was treated when she came back to work as a matron: she was an Old Girl herself, and would have known people like Rosalind Yolland and Kathie Robertson who were on the teaching staff.

I do wish we'd heard more about poor nameless Nurse, who logically should have been Matey's friend and ally at the school ...

Author:  hac61 [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

When Matey's sister dies and she mourns that there is no-one left now to call her by her first name, Hilda replies that there are plenty of people, if she will let them.

I think.

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Isn't it Jack who says that? Not that it really matters, but I think it backs up my theory that it's Matron who has always held herself apart, rather than her being forced to be that way by social convention.

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

I'm fascinated by this discussion on the social status of school matrons. First of all, would 'Matey' have had any nursing training? Does a school matron have a medical role or a purely domestic role? In the Enid Blyton stories, one gets the impression that Matron is on par with the mistresses, especially in the MT books.

Author:  Nicci [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

MJKB- Matrons with nursing qualifications are a dying breed these days, but in CS times she would almost certainly have trained.

I have had two fairly different experiences of being matron in boarding schools. In the first, I was Matron or Matron Nicki to all the pupils and any staff when in the prescence of pupils. This was very bizarre and I did end up feeling like I didn't have my own name at times. In my current school I am called either Matron or Miss so-and-so by the pupils, but staff frequently use my first name in front of the kids.
It can be an incredibly lonely life, particularly if you are single (which would have been the absolute norm back then). I doubt if Matey had to work through her holidays but this would be her only home so she would be around in the school holidays more than many of the academic staff.

ETA. - I can also agree with a previous post about the position of matrons being very much unquantified, but generally treated as lower status members of staff than the teachers (particularly galling if you have more qualifications than them!)
I can sort of understand the relationship between Joey and Matey. I would certainly walk into a burning building for some of the kids I've looked after (even the older teenagers) and there are one or two that are without doubt my special ones, and I'm thinking particularly about one chap who could charm anything out of me if I let him but I wound never dream of letting him know that and if anything I nag him more than the rest!

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Nicci wrote:

I can also agree with a previous post about the position of matrons being very much unquantified, but generally treated as lower status members of staff than the teachers (particularly galling if you have more qualifications than them!)


That's an interesting point! Matron Webb clearly feels that she knows better than Madge: she says that it's because she's older and more experiencesd, but maybe it was partly because she was better qualified as well. She probably had some nursing training, whereas Madge had no training in anything. Admittedly it's not very advisable to tell the boss that you know better than them, but I can sympathise with how she feels: last week I got so annoyed with my boss's inability to spell even basic words correctly that I went through a list of his notes with a red pen :lol: .

Matron, of course, had the ultimate power in CS-land, though - she was allowed to dose people :wink: .

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Matey and Joey's relationship

Nicci wrote:
MJKB- Matrons with nursing qualifications are a dying breed these days, but in CS times she would almost certainly have trained.

ETA. - I can also agree with a previous post about the position of matrons being very much unquantified, but generally treated as lower status members of staff than the teachers (particularly galling if you have more qualifications than them!)


Where I worked as a matron, the boarding house matrons were a mixed bunch in terms of qualifications. We had a range, from post-grad to no academic qualifications, from those who had lots of experience working wih children and young people (in a range of capacitites) to those who had no previous experience of any kind.
It was interesting, though, that appointment of matrons was very much down to the individual Housemaster. So a 'tradionally minded' man (educated within the system, going to Univ, getting a job back within the safety of an all-male boarding school environment (and don't get me started on that!!!)) would probably (and did!) favour a matron who wouldn't threaten his position. So you might get a matron who was like a 'grandmother' to the boys. Someone with little formal education, older, likely to retire within a few years.
A younger man might employ a matron who was proactive and dynamic and fully- involved within the house, being unthreatened by her popularity and the fact that she had innovative ideas to add.
The school brought in a change to matrons' contracts which meant that when there was a change of Housemaster (every 10-12 years), the new Housemaster could employ a new matron. So your contract was automatically ended at the change of Housemaster. If you started when he had a few years to run you were OK, but if you started towards the end of his time, your job was at risk.

The San employed a Sister and a couple of nurses, all of whom were qualified, plus some HCAs. This created a difficulty for me when I frist arrived because I am a qualified nurse and midwife, I have a Diploma in Tropical Diseases, many years experience working as a Senior Staff Nurse on a paediatric ward in a large London hospital, and had wokrd in India as a nurse for just over a year. The San Sister dressed in a purple uniform and was appropriately nick-named by the boys. She was a rather fearsome woman who expected, and got, complete silence in the waiting room when the boys whent to the morning surgery. She had, of course, the final say when it came to how to handle various problems, and several times I inadvertently over-stepped my mark by taking things into my own hands. For example, I once took a boy straight to A&E following a sporting injury, without sending him to the San first. I did it without thinking - he would be sent there anyway, and it simply did not occur to me to let the San see him first. I learnt my mistake in uncertain terms!!!!
So the San-matron relationship seemed to work better if matrons were less educated/without any knowledge of physical health, leaving the San to do this.
Thinking about this, it highlights the whole ethos of the school - posistions and people were 'set in stone', and the stone was carved when the school started hundreds of years ago. Thus, everyone had their job and there was no chance to do it differently.
Of course, younger members of staff (teachers) who had been out in the wild world thought nothing of a mere matron having thoughts and ideas, but many, who were entrenched within the system and felt safe as long as nothing changed, did not like other staff, such as matrons, being innovative.

Nicci wrote:
It can be an incredibly lonely life, particularly if you are single (which would have been the absolute norm back then). I doubt if Matey had to work through her holidays but this would be her only home so she would be around in the school holidays more than many of the academic staff.


The loneliness was hard. Matrons had flats situated on the second floor of the boarding house,, opening onto the stair-well. While the Hosuemasters were married and had a duplex within the Boarding house, they could, and did, shut their doors at times and were able to have a degree of 'personal' time that was denied the matron. (although it was still a very challenging job for Housemasters with families). Having to be available 24 hours a day (3 hours off a day, but still had to be getatable), six days a week (a clear 24 hours off in each seven-day period) left extremely little time for any personal life during term-time. The school was the size of village (about 2500 people in all), so you had to make your life within that environment. I found it very claustrophobic. When the boys were there, the matron had to be in-house, so one's only companionship was the boys themselves. This partly accounts for the particular closeness of some relationships.
During term-time the job was all-absorbing and -consuming. There was little time for personal life and 'normality'. And because matrons were expected by so many simply to be 'a mother', 'an aunt', or even 'a grandmother', they were not seen as real people in their own rights. They were slotted into other's preconceptions of the job-title, and woe-betide matrons who stepped out of that vision of the job! I think that if you tried to do things differently, the problem was that you were demolishing the idea that lots of staff had, of matrons, and it was this that then caused the conflict.
In once boarding house there was a stone plaque in rememberance of a particular matron. Thinking about it, it makes me rather despair - the poor women had lived her life solely in, and for, the school. She had no life that was hers alone. All she was was a matron. I don't mean that the job is nothing - it certainly is not! But she was only the job title, not a real person with real interests - and a real name of her own ...!
I did enjoy the job (although I would not go back to it), and I think that the school works as long as everyone knows their place within it, and stays within their place. Trying to change any job rather rocks the boat.

All times are UTC + 1 hour
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/