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#1: Margot's devil Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:41 pm
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While working today I was reminded again and again of Margot's excuse that she never did bad things herself, that it was the devil in her that did them.

I'm working on sixth century miracle stories at the moment and practically every story is along these lines - that the person themself is innocent but that they were temporarily possessed to do something immoral - that exorcising this devil is a quick and easy matter of proper prayer and penance.

This is just my area though - I was wondering if anyone else had any other examples, from history or from other fiction novels, of temporary devils taking the blame for wrongdoing, especially when the cure involves prayer or penance. I'm not sure if I'm saying that EBD was aware herself of all this (but I wouldn't put it past her - compare her references St. Hild who was of a similar time to these) but I think it's interesting all the same, possibly more so because Margot ends up eventually as a nun.

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:07 pm
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There's a lot about it in Mary Called Magdalene by Margaret George, but that's in relation to the Biblical references to Jesus casting seven devils out of a woman presumed to be Mary Magdalene, rather than to something "fictional" as such - hope I've worded that OK!

#3: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:13 pm
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Alison H wrote:

There's a lot about it in Mary Called Magdalene by Margaret George, but that's in relation to the Biblical references to Jesus casting seven devils out of a woman presumed to be Mary Magdalene, rather than to something "fictional" as such - hope I've worded that OK!

That's interesting - because we can assume that EBD had read her bible thoroughly, and also because this happens to the character that she called Mary Margaret /off to ponder more

#4: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:37 pm
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Don't know if it's related but those with epilepsy were thought to be possessed. Personally I feel that's a perfectly legitimate excuse! Wink

#5: Author: alicat, Location: Wiltshire

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 pm
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I always thought Margot's devil was the one we are all supposed to have on one shoulder, with our angel on the other, and they both whisper into your ear at moments of choice

which is why if you spill salt you throw it over your left sholder to knock off the devil and avert the bad luck - cos salt was holy cos it used to be precious - or are these just Lancastrian superstitions I picked up from my granny????

#6: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:10 pm
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alicat wrote:

which is why if you spill salt you throw it over your left sholder to knock off the devil and avert the bad luck - cos salt was holy cos it used to be precious - or are these just Lancastrian superstitions I picked up from my granny????

Salt repels all evil spirits, I saw it on Supernatural Very Happy

#7: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:15 pm
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alicat wrote:

I think it's because spilling salt is considered very unlucky as salt used to be so valuable - "salt" and "salary" come from the same Latin word, because Roman soldiers were paid in salt at one time (I think!).

I always throw salt over my left shoulder if I spill it!

#8: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:59 pm
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The most influential tale of the Devil and a human must surely be Dr Faustus. Or Faust, depending upon whether you are a Marlowe fanatic,or prefer Goethe.

And, I think it has to be said, only a Maynard would have got away with that excuse, anyone else would have been told to stop it pretty sharply.

#9: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:57 pm
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I don't know about possession per se beyond the biblical examples, but EBD would probably have encountered quite a bit of the "listening to your devil" imagery in religious literature aimed at children. It was also a common figure of speech in my school. Here is an example from The Adventures of St. Catherine of Siena, by Mary Reed Newland, complete with 1960 Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur:

Quote:

... and Andrea was very grateful. Until the devil whispered in Andrea's mind and Andrea listened.

"Catherine seems to be very holy," he whispered, "doing all these things for you, but suppose she only does them so she will look holy. What do you say to that?"

Now Andrea should have said, "Scat!" but she did not. She listened to all the devil's lies and thought to herself:

"Hmmm. Suppose that were true? Perhaps it is. Perhaps Catherine is really very proud!"

And in no time Andrea was telling people that Catherine was not good at all, but proud and hungry for praise.

She said worse things. She said that Catherine was not pure, but a wicked sinner. Soon word got around the city and the people began to talk.

(You will be happy to know that Andrea ultimately was sorry for all this and "[died] a happy death.")

#10: Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:56 pm
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Kathy_S wrote:

....complete with 1960 Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur:

That made me laugh, Kathy. I remembered all the times we were told that if a religious book hadn't got the imprimatur we shouldn't read it because it wasn't Catholic, and might therefore be suspect!!

And how often was I told as a child that I must have been listening to my devil, when I was naughty? Rolling Eyes

On t'other hand, I don't ever think I blamed that same devil, as Margot did.

#11: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:43 am
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Jennie wrote:

And, I think it has to be said, only a Maynard would have got away with that excuse, anyone else would have been told to stop it pretty sharply.

I think it's only as a small child she's said to have used that excuse - whenever her devil is mentioned, we're usually told she blamed him as a small child, but never actually see her as a schoolgirl say 'My devil made me do it'. It's other people who continue to refer to her devil, rather than Margot herself.

#12: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:15 am
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Margot mentions it after the accident where Emerence flattens Mary Lou -

Quote:

"Well I nearly did," Margot confessed, "but I heard Mary Lou yelling at us and I knew that if I went I'd be listening to my devil and I promised Mamma after I fell into Lake Lucerne that I'd try not to. So I didn't."

She would have been aged 12 at that point.

#13: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:43 am
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Oooops! Obviously I'm suffering from selective memory Laughing

#14: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:47 am
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She also talks about it in Does It Again:

Quote:

Margot swallowed hard. Then she said, “Mother, I didn’t really mean to be naughty yesterday afternoon. It was just my devil inside me.”
Jo had to suppress a giggle. Margot was apt to blame a good many of her evil-doings on the devil inside her and the matter-of-fact way in which she spoke of him had its comic side.
“Why did you listen to him?” she asked.
“Well, I didn’t mean to, but I was getting bored with just plain walking and I thought I’d wake Emmy up a bit. So I gave her a smack and ran. Then I climbed on the railings and she dunched into me and so I fell in. And that’s how it was.”
“I see. And so you gave us all a nasty fright and, I’m pretty certain, have caused poor Emerence to have a very miserable time of it just because you wouldn’t listen to your guardian angel, but preferred to hear what your devil had to say. I call that abominably selfish,” Jo said judicially.
“I didn’t mean to,” the culprit muttered.
“My lamb, that’s always your excuse. You never ‘mean to’, whatever you’ve been up to. Are you going to go on using it all through your life? For you’re going to land yourself into some nasty messes if you do.”
“Oh, but, when I’m older, I’ll want to listen more to my guardian angel,” Margot argued.
“Don’t you believe it! You see, every time you give in to the devil, you’re making it easier and easier for him to talk to you and coax you into doing things even when you know them to be wrong. It’s like practising your tennis. When you first began, you couldn’t get a ball over the net unless you stood quite close to it. But you worked at it and now you can get it over quite well, even from the back-line. Do you see?”
“Do you mean that when we listen to him we’re practising letting him boss us?” Len struck in, horror in her face. “But—but that’s an awful thing to do!”

#15: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:53 am
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I think I may interpret 'Margot's devil' differently than many other readers. I don't believe she does the child-like 'not MY fault' sort of devil-blaming except as a very small child, though many of those around her refer to 'Margot's devil' for years afterwards in much the way they won't let go of Daniel biting the lions. As far as I can know, the last time we actually see Margot invoking the devil excuse is when she's 11 and lands in the lake in Does It Again:

Quote:

“Mother, I didn’t really mean to be naughty yesterday afternoon. It was just my devil inside me.”

We then have the long discussion in which Jo lectures about practice in saying "no" to the devil/temptation. Here's a little bit:

Quote:

I see. And so you gave us all a nasty fright and, I’m pretty certain, have caused poor Emerence to have a very miserable time of it just because you wouldn’t listen to your guardian angel, but preferred to hear what your devil had to say. I call that abominably selfish.

This seems to me just the usual personification of temptation and conscience that was dished out during my formative years, so it never felt odd to me that this vocabulary was common currency in the Maynard family.

In subsequent volumes, Margot herself doesn't tend to verbalize about the devil. Her elders constantly hark back to her early use of it, and Len, Mary-Lou, and even the staff refer to Margot's devil frequently, but not Margot. When the culprit herself is present, it's virtually always the narrator using 'listening to her devil' imagery. For example, in New Mistress, both Francie and Margot get this treatment. Francie:

Quote:

Kathie's added remarks had roused the devil in her and she was only waiting until the mistress became absorbed in her own work.

Margot:

Quote:

The devil that was never very far from her suggested that it would be a good idea to light the sparkler and toss it into the middle of the room. That would give Miss Ferrars something to grumble about and perhaps she'd leave Con alone for the rest of the lesson. It was quite a long time since Margot had lent a willing ear to her devil, but she did so now.

Neither Francie nor Margot are making excuses for themselves; they're just not fighting temptation overly well.

It is probably Theodora that is the most devil-ridden book. Margot reaches her absolute nadir – far nastier than the much-vaunted bookend incident, so, if you accept the angel/devil dichotomy, it's natural that here the devil would be most in the ascendant. It's actually at this point in the series I first became convinced that EBD was shaping Margot to be a nun. Two major scenes related to the devil device in this book made the idea inescapable for me.

First, we have Soeur Marie-Anne's discussion with Ted on putting the devil to flight, suggesting that a religious would naturally use this imagery:

Quote:

God will always give you strength to fight if you ask Him. Your guardian angel will help you. Ask, and you will see that it is so—if you ask truly wishing it.” ... None of us can hope to fight evil alone, unaided. But with God—yes!”

Then we have Mdlle's story of St. Théodule and the subsequent interpretation, which Margot worries is meant for her – and which may well be, even though EBD claims Mdlle hasn't that in mind. Notice especially that, in the story, the devil is most anxious to win the soul of a potential saint. This is a common motif, whether you're talking traditional Catholicism (clear back to Peter-the-first-Pope's 3-fold denial of Christ) or mythic fantasy (e.g. Liart wanting to corrupt a paladin of Gird in Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrian). The more influence for good the saint will have, particularly the public witness sort of influence, the more the devil strives to prevent it.

When I put these two sequences together with the chronic references to Margot's 'devilitis' (Hilary Bennet's word) and especially the narrator's descriptions of the wrestling between her devil and her guardian angel, my conclusion is that Margot is meant to have a vocation, and the devil is doing his darnedest to block the possibility. Margot essentially confirms this to her sisters in Prefects, when she says

Quote:

I think, looking back, that I've always wanted it, more or less. That is why I had such a bother with my devil - remember, you two?

.

That's my two cents.
*whew*

ETA There were lots of responses while I was composing this! Embarassed

#16: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:00 am
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She does seem to go on a lot about her devil, and so do other members of the family - long past the age when you might expect someone to blame an imaginary friend type being, and much more seriously than you'd expect people to talk about something that was just a family joke/a figure of speech.

I don't imagine for a minute that EBD meant us to think of Margot's devil in terms of possession and requiring exorcism, but it/he does seem to be taken rather literally/seriously sometimes.

#17: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:13 am
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Alison H wrote:

I don't imagine for a minute that EBD meant us to think of Margot's devil in terms of possession and requiring exorcism, but it/he does seem to be taken rather literally/seriously sometimes.

Oh golly neither did I mean that EBD meant for us to read "possession" into the text. My point was that the devil taking the blame for bad behaviour is something that crops up all the way through history and literature - and that's it's interesting that it crops up in EBD as well - and to such a major character.

#18: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:31 am
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LOL - I didn't think you did! Although I'm now envisioning a kind of CS/Exorcist crossover!

#19: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:53 am
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Alison H wrote:

LOL - I didn't think you did! Although I'm now envisioning a kind of CS/Exorcist crossover!

Is there a special kind of scary food that bunny would require? rofl

#20: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:44 pm
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Róisín wrote:

Alison H wrote:

LOL - I didn't think you did! Although I'm now envisioning a kind of CS/Exorcist crossover!

Is there a special kind of scary food that bunny would require? rofl

Devil's food cake of course devil

#21: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:28 pm
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Found this here ('Victorian Literature and the Victorian Visual Imagination')

Quote:

...the allegorizing tendency that enables us as spectators to avoid, as far as possible, both discomfort and guilt...

Which led me to think that maybe the devil is a tool that EBD uses to deflect criticism of the bad side of Margot's character - that is, to keep the tone relatively comfortable and not force the reader to confront the idea that one of Joey's children had a flawed character. Which then led me to compare EBD to Antonia Forest, who would never mask a character's badness in that manner - AF would delight in portraying a more complicated side and in defending the right not to be a heroine.

/still pondrin'

#22: Margot and her devil Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:29 pm
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I always thought that Margot was a nasty piece of work and allowed to get away with murder (if that bookend had been half an inch to the left - or some such comment, don't make me go and look it up please!!) she always managed to get away with a 'talking to' as she had 'punished herself' by getting worked up or reporting herself (after the hockey incident - again please don't make me look this up it takes hours!)
and what was that saying that was always linked to her about having a hard row to plough (no can't be plough, definite garden reference though and it was always said in sad way)
All through the series Margot is a short tempered bully, she is mean (the childhood 'den' espisode and the fishing rod), selfish (the whole inability to see that althought she has Emerence as a friend her triplets must not) not to mention (again) launching bookends and planning blackmail. Whew glad to get that off my chest (and apologies to Margot fans!)

#23: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:05 pm
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I've always thought that EBD thought that Margot's self-reproach was punishment enough, so she kept on writing about it, as if the school staff's opinion was supposed to mitigate her offences.

I do wonder if EBD saw her as a character who nobly tried to overcome her problems, and not as the selfish, childish little madam that she seems ot us.

#24: Margot and her devil Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:24 am
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Is it possible that EBD was already preparing her (Margot) for nunhood? (That looks weird written down but sounded OK in my head sorry) I mean taking the veil and I think that there are similarities here between EBD and the grandmother in Antonia Forest's oevre, both were converts and both had similar ideas about saints being people who had to 'struggle' to be good (OK one was real and the other was fictional) so maybe EBD had Margot struggling to sort of balance out Robin (whose forays into disobedience were never really that convincing) as her early nun.
Does anyone know roughly which book tilte (if any) would coincide with EBD conversion? I always thought that she made Jack catholic in order to bring Joey into the fold as it were as Jack's sister 'Maynie' was protestant in the early books if I remember rightly.

Still, Margot's insensitivity to others does not bode well for her future as a teaching nun!

#25: Re: Margot and her devil Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:33 am
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kes wrote:

Does anyone know roughly which book tilte (if any) would coincide with EBD conversion?

1930 was the year that she converted officially (12 December) and also the year that she published The School by the River and Eustacia. Helen McClelland (yes, I picked up her bio to check this Laughing

) says that she can detect leanings towards conversion much earlier than this though, especially in Jean of Storms. I haven't read the latter so can't say myself.

Definitely, in the early period of Christianity at least, saints were expected to have a struggle on their hands. In fact those who couldn't really become martyrs (well you need to find someone to persecute you don't you) were expected to create their own self-persecution, so this is the reason for a lot of hermits, fasting to the point of dying of starvation, and self-beating etc. (But this is all physical and maybe irrelevant to Margot and this discussion...)

#26: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:17 pm
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What surprises me is that Joey and Jack let her get away with the excuse "The devil made me do it" more than once. I think her 'devil' let her and the family disassociate Margot from her bad behavior - it wasn't Margot who was selfish and quick tempered and lazy and violent, it was her devil.

Actually, I feel rather sorry for Margot in spite of her nastiness. She has been labelled the bad triplet from toddlerhood, was spoiled as a child, in the sense that she was allowed to be the centre of attention, and not kept to the same expectations as her sisters regarding behaviour and performance. Then, once her health problems are resolved, at about the age of ten, she's expected to be a super child. It's shameful when she is in class with girls her own age, rather than several years advanced. She's told that because she is bright, she should be doing brilliantly in schoolwork, without taking into account her temperment and early indulgence. During her teen years she's repeatedly bumped up in form and then held back at teh beginning of term, setting her up for failure. She's known throughout her peers and elder classmates as the lazy Maynard triplet. Then, when she behaves badly she's generally allowed to get away with it if she's convincing enough with her remorse.

To a large extent she becomes what she has been brought up to be.

#27: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:52 pm
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Róisín wrote:

Found this here ('Victorian Literature and the Victorian Visual Imagination')

Quote:

...the allegorizing tendency that enables us as spectators to avoid, as far as possible, both discomfort and guilt...

Which led me to think that maybe the devil is a tool that EBD uses to deflect criticism of the bad side of Margot's character

I very much regret to say that I've heard Evangelical Christians doing the exact same thing - if they are having a good day, "The Lord has really blessed them", and if life is going a bit pear-shaped, "The Devil is really having a go at me just now." I am a Christian myself, and have been Evangelical in my time, but I do find that particular off-shuffling of both good and bad very irritating - have they no personality of their own?

#28: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:03 pm
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jennifer wrote:

What surprises me is that Joey and Jack let her get away with the excuse "The devil made me do it" more than once. I think her 'devil' let her and the family disassociate Margot from her bad behavior - it wasn't Margot who was selfish and quick tempered and lazy and violent, it was her devil.

What are the odds that little Margot was able to come up with the idea that she had her own personal devil, responsible for all her mischief, by herself?

Given the way Jem and Madge, who would have been Joey's primary role models as parents, stressed the need for proper training and that "bad" children were the fault of the parents, I could see Joey being bewildered by her one "naughty" tot and saying something about her listening to her devil in Margot's hearing.

It wasn't Joey and Jack's fault, and by extension, it wasn't Margot's fault. It was all her devil's fault.

Quote:

Actually, I feel rather sorry for Margot in spite of her nastiness. She has been labelled the bad triplet from toddlerhood, was spoiled as a child, in the sense that she was allowed to be the centre of attention, and not kept to the same expectations as her sisters regarding behaviour and performance. Then, once her health problems are resolved, at about the age of ten, she's expected to be a super child.

That has to have been a huge shock for her; spoiling a child isn't a good idea, obviously, but going from pampering a child, making her the centre of attention and allowing her to get away with things her sisters didn't - horribly unfair to Len and Con in the first place - and then all of a sudden expecting her to toe the line? No kid would deal with that well.

As a toddler and as a small child, there's no way that Margot was aware of the fact that she was considered delicate or that the fears over her health were the reason she was treated differently. From her perspective, people were making a fuss over her and she didn't get scolded or spanked or sent to bed or whatever form of punishment Joey and Jack used when their kids were tiny, for no particular reason. If you're treated like you're special, like the world revolves around you, then nine times out of ten you start to think that way.

Why wouldn't Margot be a bit selfish and self-centered when she had been taught to be that way?

Remember what it was like for Grizel to go from being her grandmother's spoilt darling to living in a home where she wasn't number one and was expected to conform to strict discipline.

Quote:

It's shameful when she is in class with girls her own age, rather than several years advanced. She's told that because she is bright, she should be doing brilliantly in schoolwork, without taking into account her temperment and early indulgence. During her teen years she's repeatedly bumped up in form and then held back at teh beginning of term, setting her up for failure. She's known throughout her peers and elder classmates as the lazy Maynard triplet. Then, when she behaves badly she's generally allowed to get away with it if she's convincing enough with her remorse.

It was said more than once that Margot wasn't living up to her potential because she hadn't put in the same kind of groundwork as Len and Con had. If that was the case, why keep at her about it? It's not like they've got a time machine and can send her back to start again from Kindergarten onwards.

If she hasn't done the groundwork, she hasn't done the groundwork and all the nagging in the world won't change that. Instead of constantly saying "you're the cleverest, you should be in class with older girls like Len and Con are", damaging Margot's sense of self-worth in the process, let her catch up on the ground she's missed and work until she's ready to be moved up a form. It's not like she was with younger kids, at any rate. She was working with her own age group.

Quote:

To a large extent she becomes what she has been brought up to be.

Nail -> Head.

#29: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:19 pm
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I find a probelm with the delicacy thing because it is retrospective. Do we hear that she is delicate before 'Island'? Also the notion that she was spoiled. She seems to be disciplined in 'Rescue' at the age of three and in several of the other books.

#30: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:27 pm
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Mel wrote:

I find a probelm with the delicacy thing because it is retrospective. Do we hear that she is delicate before 'Island'? Also the notion that she was spoiled. She seems to be disciplined in 'Rescue' at the age of three and in several of the other books.

I think EBD needed a new baddie among the young generation once Sybil was a bit older and wiser. Margot was it.

#31: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:15 am
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Holly wrote:

Mel wrote:

I think EBD needed a new baddie among the young generation once Sybil was a bit older and wiser. Margot was it.

I can understand that. What I have an issue with is the fact Margot is never allowed to truly reform the way Sybil does and is constantly being bad all over again and worse and worse each time. Grizel was allowed to reform so much more until you reach the Island books and then suddenly its like she hasn't much at all.

#32: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:25 am
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Fiona Mc wrote:

I can understand that. What I have an issue with is the fact Margot is never allowed to truly reform the way Sybil does and is constantly being bad all over again and worse and worse each time.

Actually, I'm not so sure about that. I think Margot's reformation is probably the longest and, in many ways, the most realistic. How many times do we all try to change, only to slip back and have to begin all over again? It happens with everything - diets, trying to kick bad habits - and controlling a bad temper.

With Grizel we don't see the direct development of her bad character (although we do get an explanation for why she is like that), only the results of them and her struggle to overcome. She gets through lots of little incidents that don't make much of a difference. It's only when something huge happens - she nearly kills Len - that she really changes.

With Sybil, we see the development of her bad character, but not what happens after she gets past the dramatic shock of nearly killing Josette and whatever struggles Sybil may have afterwards to become the excellent and considerate Senior and Prefect she is in books like Kenya.

With Margot, we see both sides of the coin - the development of her bad habits, from her selfishness and pride as a small girl, to her hot temper as a teenager. We can see what made her the way she is and we see her many attempts to change and become a better person, along with her backward steps and her genuine repentance. Like Sybil and Grizel, it takes an almost life-threatening situation for her to change - nearly killing Betty. (I don't count falling into the Lucerne because, first, she was the victim, and second, that did seem like a genuine accident.)

And I think Margot gets her reward. By the end of the series, marrying a doctor, while prestigious, has happened to so many Old Girls that it is not really anything super special anymore. A career is very nice, but again, not particularly special. However there are only two other nuns in the whole series - Luigia di Ferarra and Robin Humphries. Both are almost superhuman characters and lend their vocation a mystical glory.

Luigia has professed her faith at about the same time as EBD herself is considering conversion (Exploits, in which Luigia's decision is mentioned, is published in 1933) and thus the role must have seemed very significant to Elinor. Even more important, Luigia is given the glory of dying for her faith, in the same way that Herr Marani dies for his family. Both are victims of a terrible regime and are glorified because of their beliefs and loyalty.

Robin Humphries has become a type of superhuman person by the time she takes the faith, having tried and failed to sacrifice herself while working for others in her settlement work. She has also given up her own goals and ideas to live with Joey and look after the Maynard and Russell families as required, rather than going off and doing further education or considering some other career path. When we see her as a nun in Adrienne, she has strength of character, a sense of humour, an inner power that overwhelms the evil landlady, Mme Poirin. She is kind and understanding, advising Adrienne in her difficulties with Janet Henderson. In almost every way, she seems to be perfection.

With these two examples, I can't help feeling that EBD might well have seen 'taking the veil' as one of the best fates for which a good Catholic girl might aim, particularly one that has had such a difficult development. Whether or not we see it in this light today, I think EBD intended Margot to attain great things in her future role in the Order, that perhaps her entering a convent made her an even greater success than either Len or Con.

#33: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:32 am
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With Sybil, we see the development of her bad character, but not what happens after she gets past the dramatic shock of nearly killing Josette and whatever struggles Sybil may have afterwards to become the excellent and considerate Senior and Prefect she is in books like Kenya.

I always feel sorry for Sybil. Yes, she was a brat before Josette's accident, but in normal circumstances she might well have grown out of it naturally.

After Josette's accident (which was an accident and not caused by any malice on Sybil's part) and Jem's reaction to it, Sybil's personality seems to be completely suppressed.

She carries a continuing load of guilt. She doesn't take pleasure in her good looks to the point where she almost seems to be ashamed of them - and surely it's possible to enjoy one's looks without being vain about them. She's humble and modest. As an adult she submits meekly to being carted off to Australia with her mother and putting aside the training and career she's worked so hard to achieve. This all says 'repressed' to me. I can't help seeing her marriage to an Australian as her way of rebelling.

#34: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:08 pm
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Mel wrote:

In Recuse Margot has a huge temper tantrum the Jack deals with. There is also a mention that Jo tries to keep this sort of thing from him. She seems already to be the awkward one.

#35: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:13 pm
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I feel very sorry for Sybil. When someone says that she's the "St Mildred's Beauty Queen", we're told that she'd go mad if she heard them: she can hardly help being attractive and it's awful that she seems to feel so awkward about it.

#36: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:52 pm
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JayB wrote:

I always feel sorry for Sybil. Yes, she was a brat before Josette's accident, but in normal circumstances she might well have grown out of it naturally.

To be honest, I think that a lot of children in Sybil's position would have developed quite a bit of brattiness. She's always had to compete with, not only her brother but a small army of cousins, plus the Robin for her mother and father's attention. Given the concern over the Robin's health and the fact that Daisy, Primula, Peggy, Rix, David and Bride were older than she was, they would have been better able to claim Madge's time than baby Sybil would and Jem was obviously very busy with his work.

Sybil's chief claim to attention was her looks, even strangers made a fuss over her because she was so pretty. In her shoes, I'd have been vain about my looks too. Madge seems to take particular pride in them when Sybil is tiny.

JayB wrote:

After Josette's accident (which was an accident and not caused by any malice on Sybil's part) and Jem's reaction to it, Sybil's personality seems to be completely suppressed.

Nowadays, we'd probably say that she had been traumatized by both the accident and the reactions of those around her, especially Jem.

As you say, it was an accident and it was one that should have been avoided with some care on the part of Sybil's guardians. Sybil was eight or nine, right, and Josette four? Yet they are left, unsupervised, in a kitchen with a boiling kettle? If nobody came running when Josette was screaming - Sybil had enough time to haul a struggling child to the bathroom and start undressing her before anyone intervened, so I would extrapolate that there was no adult nearby at the time. If the kettle was boiling, leaving it on the hob can be extremely dangerous so even if Sybil had never touched it, there could have been serious injuries for both herself and Josette.

In Madge and Jem's shoes, I would be having strong words with the nurse I had entrusted with the care of my children, not with the child, yet the consensus seems to be that it's all Sybil's fault.

Jem's treatment of her is so harsh that she ends up physically ill.

I'm not surprised that Sybil's personality was suppressed after that.

#37: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:44 pm
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I wonder that Sybil wasn't injured too. It must be hard to upset a boiling kettle on someone else (at the age of eight/nine) without splashing some on yourself too. I wonder if she had been injured too would she have been treated better.

#38: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:39 pm
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Re. Josette and Sybil's supervision - yes, in a RL situation, but EBD is in a bit of a cleft stick with anyone, whether mistresses or childcare staff, who is in a supervisory role in her novels, as they all have to be thoroughly worthy, yet also nod enough for anything to happen so that the plot can advance. The mistresses are never blamed for anything happening on their watch, which is fair enough - I don't see how anyone is supposed to predict that the Middles will adopt a passing orphan or Joey will take on a lunatic Belsornian royal armed with only her Guide know-how and a dog - but there are a few instances when Joey or Madge's staff are depicted as incompetent and then sometimes hysterical when something happens. The Sybil/Josette accident is one, but there's also the time the Balbinis kidnap Sybil from the garden in the Tiernsee, or when Win runs away from Rosli's supervision in the Oberland. This needs to happen for the plot, but I get a bit impatient with Rosli then being depicted as wailing and jabbering and needing to be silenced...

I agree that the Josette/Sybil accident and its longterm aftermath in terms of the way Sybil is treated is odd. I always find Sybil's depiction in Rescue rather pitiable - she's there the whole time, supposedly on holiday, but in fact acting as unpaid domestic labour, isolated from both the much younger children and the adults - and Joey nearly savages both the wheelchair-bound neighbour (whose name escapes me - Phyllis? Philippa?) and, I think, the admittedly obnxious vicar's wife for making reference to Sybil's beauty. Even if this is intended for Sybil's own good within the family, it's enormously rude for Joey snap at total strangers for not knowing this family rule! Do you suppose the adult Sybil was ever capable of accepting a compliment naturally? I always imagine someone casually saying 'You look lovely tonight' and Sybil coming back with 'But I just look the way God made me' - which would kill flirtation stone dead...

#39: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:05 pm
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Kate wrote:

I wonder that Sybil wasn't injured too. It must be hard to upset a boiling kettle on someone else (at the age of eight/nine) without splashing some on yourself too. I wonder if she had been injured too would she have been treated better.

It'd probably depend on when and how Josette ran into her. If she barreled into Sybil as she was reaching to take the kettle off the hob, then it's possible that it went flying and the bulk of it spilled on Josette with very little, if any, hitting Sybil - especially if her reflexes kicked in and she jumped back.

I'd like to think that Sybil would have been treated better if she had been injured - although I do not condone the way she was treated in the first place - but I think that EBD had decided that Sybil was going to be taught a lesson and that was that.

#40: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:14 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

The Sybil/Josette accident is one, but there's also the time the Balbinis kidnap Sybil from the garden in the Tiernsee, or when Win runs away from Rosli's supervision in the Oberland. This needs to happen for the plot, but I get a bit impatient with Rosli then being depicted as wailing and jabbering and needing to be silenced...

Maybe she was the best they could do, especially given the large number of tinies she was expected to watch. How many children would there have been in the Die Rosen nursery by Exile; Peggy, Rix, Bride, David, Sybil, Jackie, and Primula - have I forgotten anyone? How many nannies nowadays would be prepared to take on seven pre-schoolaged kids virtually single-handed?

Sunglass wrote:

I agree that the Josette/Sybil accident and its longterm aftermath in terms of the way Sybil is treated is odd. I always find Sybil's depiction in Rescue rather pitiable - she's there the whole time, supposedly on holiday, but in fact acting as unpaid domestic labour, isolated from both the much younger children and the adults - and Joey nearly savages both the wheelchair-bound neighbour (whose name escapes me - Phyllis? Philippa?) and, I think, the admittedly obnxious vicar's wife for making reference to Sybil's beauty. Even if this is intended for Sybil's own good within the family, it's enormously rude for Joey snap at total strangers for not knowing this family rule!

I haven't read that one yet, but from the sounds of things, the way poor Sybil is treated is awful! Out of curiousity, is Joey's behaviour portrayed as being right?

Sunglass wrote:

Do you suppose the adult Sybil was ever capable of accepting a compliment naturally? I always imagine someone casually saying 'You look lovely tonight' and Sybil coming back with 'But I just look the way God made me' - which would kill flirtation stone dead...

I imagine that that kind of attitude to her looks as a child would lead to a lifelong complex about her appearance; instead of being able to balance taking pride in her appearance with knowing that its not the be all and end all, Sybil could well have grown up to hate her looks, to be ashamed of being pretty.

#41: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:01 am
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I imagine it is hard for a parent with a strikingly pretty child - you don't want the child to grow up to be vain, but you also don't want to teach them that it's okay to throw a compliment back in someone's face, which seems to be the Maynard/Russell philosophy.

I agree that although Sybil was a brat, she had reason to be a brat, and that her posturing about being the daughter of the house was probably a plea for attention. Daisy and Primula had their mother until Daisy was twelve, and had special attention because they were orphaned, as did Robin, and the three of them had a special bond with Joey that the other kids didn't have. Robin, at least, was spoiled at least as much as Sybil was. The Bettany kids had parents, even if they weren't there. Sybil had a mother, but could easily feel like she didn't matter, because a lot of her mother's time and energy was spent on cousins and family wards.

Madge and Jem don't *do* anything about Sybil's behaviour either. Madge thinks her behaviour is amusing, and a natural consequence of being pretty. They recognise the problem, but don't seem to feel that they can do anything about it. Quotes from Highland Twins:

Quote:

'It's not my fault,' returned Madge Russell. 'Don't blame me, my dear. It's all the silly idiots of young doctors and visitors who rave about her beauty. and you must admit, Jo, that she is pretty.'

...

But I think part of it comes from having so many older cousins then herself in the house. Sybil knows she's a daughter of the house, and Peg and Rix and Bride are cousins, and she's trying to keep her end up with them all.'

Jo, on the other hand, doesn't seem to like her very much at all.

Quote:

'Sybil's giving herself awful airs, my dear. She's getting thoroughly spoilt. It isn't even as if she were the only girl. There's Josette coming along. I think it's time someone took Sybil down a peg or
two.'

Sybil's seven at this point, and Jo's response is more like an older girl at school towards an obnoxious junior, than the response of an adult with an interest in raising the child. Humiliating or punishing the child for vanity and brattiness, which is what happens, is very different from recognising that your child has a problem that needs to be addressed, through the modificiation of the behaviour of both the parent and child.

#42: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:47 am
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It comes across as though Joey were jealous - after all, even though her triplets are attractive, Sybil is, by far, prettier.

#43: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:34 am
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Lesley wrote:

It comes across as though Joey were jealous - after all, even though her triplets are attractive, Sybil is, by far, prettier.

But hasn't Sybil at this point just been obnoxious to the Highland Twins, and Joey's angry because they're upset? (can't remember quote at the mo)

I think Sybil gets a raw deal as a result of bad parenting, both before and after the infamous Incident with the Kettle.

#44: Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:36 am
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to get back to the original topic, Th eway everyone treated Margot always suprises me when it is contrasted to the way the Robin was treated. THe Robin was always on a very strict regime, (which mainly seemed to consist of early nights and lots of milk) and was very rarely broken for anything (the infamous exception being when she stayed up late during Eustacia with potentially disastrous effects). It is acknowledged that she has to give up a lot of otherwise desirable treats, and her punishments are sometimes altered to allow for her regime. When she does outgrow her delicacy, the background in self discipline is still valuable to her.

With Margot, on the other hand, Jo says, "If she is only to have a short time in this world, I want it to be a happy one." Everyone else generally colludes with this, and she grows up relatively spoilt and undisciplined. When she outgrows her delicacy, she has a lot of trouble adjusting to her newly defined world.

The inconsistency comes across very clearly in Rescue, where on the one hand we see Jo explaing to Zephyr all about Robins earlier delicacy and subsequent limitations, and a few chapters later (or earlier - I don't have the book to hand) tries to shield Margot from the results of her temper tantrum.

#45: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:19 am
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The Bettanys and Russells never had to put in the hard work with Robin; it was never necessary, or already done for them.

The Robin was already sweet tempered, submissive and obedient when she arrived at the CS. If she ever had any childish tantrums either they'd been trained out of her or she'd grown out of them before she was six. If she hadn't been like that it would have been much more difficult for Jem to insist on his strict regime; what could they have done if she threw a tantrum every time she was told to drink up her milk?

(And because EBD shunted her off to the Annexe and then to India and then there was the gap between the two halves of Exile, we never saw Robin going through the 'naughty Middle' phase.)

Margot, on the other hand, was strong willed, hot tempered and self centred as a toddler, all normal for a toddler, but which she never grew out of or was never taught to control. For all Jack and Jem might have liked to insist on a strict regime it would have been much more difficult to enforce. And Jack, who we're told is a much stricter disciplinarian than Joey, wasn't around for a lot of Margot's early years.

Plus, as a very intelligent child Margot must have picked up that she was somehow special and different from her sisters, when Joey would obviously take more care about her getting wet or catching a cold than she did Len or Con. That would tend to reinforce her self centredness and sense that she was always entitled to be first with everyone.

Then she was taken to Canada - again, special and different from her sisters. And quite possibly Madge spoiled her a bit if she was homesick and missing her sisters.

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