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Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?
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Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Quite apart from incidents that are actually labelled as Margot's Devil being in Control in the later Swiss books (notable ones include almost braining Betty Landon with a bookend), as discussed on another thread recently - I can't help finding the later Margot on 'ordinary' form, with nothing particular to enrage her/without having an attack of 'devilitis', often very unpleasant in a way that EBD doesn't seem to acknowledge, especially in her capacity as games prefect.

In Challenge, Margot emerges as a nasty, authoritarian, even bullying, Games Prefect. Taking the Fifths for a hockey practice, she snaps publicly at her fellow-prefect Joan Dancey (who is actually the hockey captain, and so nominally in charge here), repeatedly snarls at at a girl fastening up her hair before play starts, frightens everyone into playing badly, picks on the new girl Evelyn Ross who is genuinely trying at hockey after a bad start, repeatedly treats accidents as deliberate fouls, (even when both players involved acknowledge it was an accident), and directly contributes, by her nagging, to one girl being injured badly enough to have to miss hockey for the rest of the term.

We hear bits and pieces in other books about 'bad' prefects - Ruth Barnes is ticked off by EBD for her 'bullying' manner with juniors, and Marilyn (Evans?) for neglecting her head girl duties for her academic work - but isn't this precisely what Margot is doing here, essentially bullying the Fifths because she hadn't wanted to take the practice because of her own schoolwork? OK, some of Margot's behaviour as a private individual is acknowledged to be bad, here and elsewhere, but no one on the staff (even Miss Burnett, to whom she confesses this incident, or the Head) ever seems to think about whether she should be a prefect, especially in an important job which involves giving up lots of time and dealing with the lower forms in a position of authority...?

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Peggy probably didn't dare criticise one of the Maynards! It would have ruined her career prospects (such as they were) for ever.

Margot gets away with an awful lot, I agree. There are a lot of comments about Mary-Lou getting away with things that other people would have been told off for, but in her case it's only a cheeky way of speaking. Margot's behaviour is far worse.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

The stupid thing is Margot as a child until Theodora seem to be a reasonably pleasant sort of a child and never developed this nasty bullying way that she seem to develop in later years. Naughty, mischevious, yes, nasty, no. It was almost like reading a different person when it came to Theodora. In Ruey which is the next book, she genuinely seems to be trying to improve, but EBD seems determined to never allow the girl to reform and the only thing she ever seems to write about Margot, is losing her temper, which gets disappointing.

I think she had Margot as Games Prefect purely because she was one of the triplets, and a Maynard. I would have preferred to see Primrose Trevoase as Game Prefect rather than Second Games Prefect

Author:  Cat C [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

It may have been EBD trying to convey Margot as a 'normal' girl, as opposed to saintly Len and dreamy Con... or just possibly as fighting her vocation?

(Yet another reason I don't worry too much about owning no book after Wins the Trick - the characterisation of the triplets as they grow up!)

Author:  JayB [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Quote:
no one on the staff (even Miss Burnett, to whom she confesses this incident, or the Head) ever seems to think about whether she should be a prefect, especially in an important job which involves giving up lots of time and dealing with the lower forms in a position of authority...?


*Ahem* (coughs modestly) I wrote a drabble about this. Can be found on the Sally Denny Library here:
http://www.sallydennylibrary.co.uk/view ... hp?sid=115

Author:  Alex [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Maybe it's like the news...you don't hear about it unless it's bad? Margot must have taken 100s of hockey practices without losing her temper.

Author:  Emma A [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

JayB wrote:
*Ahem* (coughs modestly) I wrote a drabble about this. Can be found on the Sally Denny Library

If only something like this had happened to Margot! It would have been dramatic and interesting, to see how she would have handled her demotion, and how the other prefects and her friends would have done so. I think it would have done Margot a lot of good, once she'd got over her disappointment.

Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I always felt like the Games Prefect was allowed to get away with this kind of behaviour more readily than other girls - wasn't Grizel also susceptible to the same kind of thing when she was Games Prefect? I think it happens "off-screen", so to speak, although I could just be misremembering.

Author:  Róisín [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Cat C wrote:
It may have been EBD trying to convey Margot as a 'normal' girl, as opposed to saintly Len and dreamy Con... or just possibly as fighting her vocation?


I agree with this. I think EBD saw (and meant us to see, but did it badly) that behind the nasty bullyish ways there lurked an amazing shiny nun. And that if Margot-the-bad could have this lurking in her, then maybe the young readers could too? It's the biggest turnaround in the series, I think; so EBD deliberately had to make her really really awful so that she could be the immaculate example in the end.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Yes. I agree with both Roisin and Cat C on this. When I was growing up in the '60s and early 70's there was this notion that often the wildest and 'baddest' girls became nuns and excellent nuns at that -nuns who would go on to become Mother Superiors and Foundresses. I suspect the nuns themselves might have been responsible for the dissemination of the idea!

Author:  Kathy_S [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Yes, think for example of The Trouble with Angels, 1966 film based on the 1962 novel by Jane Trahey. I'm pretty sure there are earlier examples but can't think of them at the moment.

(Sadly, Margot's behavior on the playing field seemed pretty realistic to me -- about what I came to expect from P.E. instructors. Not good enough for the CS though!)

Author:  JB [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I don't think Margot would have become Games Prefect were she not one of the founding family. With anyone else, there would have been discussion about her being good at games but unsuited to coaching younger pupils.

EBD doesn't know what to do with Margot does she? Vindictive and bullying in Theodora, throwing bookends in Triplets but at other times almost pathetic in her need for reassurance that that she has improved.

I loved the drabble Jay B. Far more interesting than how it actually happened. Good for Nancy. Would have loved to see Joey's reaction.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

JayB wrote:
*Ahem* (coughs modestly) I wrote a drabble about this. Can be found on the Sally Denny Library here:
http://www.sallydennylibrary.co.uk/view ... hp?sid=115


It's excellent! I was hoping, though, that we'd also see Miss Wilmot calling at Freudesheim to make it Very Plain to Joey that her daughter was seriously at fault - I'd be terribly interested to see how Joey would respond to one of her daughters being undeniably publicly demoted by her beloved school.

I don't buy the reading of this incident that signals Margot as brilliant nun-to-be at all, to be honest, though it's possible that's how EBD meant it and I'm interested that some of you do read it that way. Margot strikes me as having become a thoroughly nasty piece of work, who should probably do something for a living that won't allow her to be inauthority over other people. (Like be a hermit? A Lighthouse-keeper? )

I also don't think it's a one-off - there's a tennis lesson in Jane, I think, where Margot is also very sarcastic and hectoring. I wouldn't think twice about such behaviour in real life ( I used to hide from PE lessons!) or in books with less idealised characters, but for a prefect to regularly abuse her power with impunity at the CS is shocking!

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I dislike, on principle, the way Margot's overbearing, bullying and intimidating manner is tolerated by pretty much everyone with clout in the later books. They constantly pussy foot round her, particularly Len and, curiously enough, Hilda. If anyone, inadvertently causes her to lose her temper, it is they who are blamed, and Margot is soothed back to normality. Why should she be allowed to display such violent outbursts of temper with virtual impunity, as in the incident on the hockey field, when others are expected to toe the party line. When she behaves in a normal fashion people are almost grateful to her, and any redeeming feature is exaggerated in order to counterbalance it with her dark side.In one way, it is a realistic interpretation of life. Bullies very often get away with terrorising others and victims' rights are often ignored. Sad, but alas too often true. I think it's disappointing that it happens in the world of the CS, however,

Author:  Mel [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

We never do see her truly reformed do we? As a prefect she no longer falls in lakes etc but she is far worse. What happened to her wake-up call after Theodora? EBD makes her unrealistically too bad and then there is no time for her to be reformed. We are told constantly that she has 'a hard row to hoe' and that she will be all the finer woman one day! The supposed 'madcaps' who becamee nuns in Catholic mythology were not blackmailers and bullies.

Author:  CBW [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Quote:
I don't buy the reading of this incident that signals Margot as brilliant nun-to-be at all, to be honest,


To be honest it seemed totally in character for some of the nuns I met at school.

Author:  Cat C [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sunglass wrote:
JayB wrote:
*Ahem* (coughs modestly) I wrote a drabble about this. Can be found on the Sally Denny Library here:
http://www.sallydennylibrary.co.uk/view ... hp?sid=115


It's excellent! I was hoping, though, that we'd also see Miss Wilmot calling at Freudesheim to make it Very Plain to Joey that her daughter was seriously at fault - I'd be terribly interested to see how Joey would respond to one of her daughters being undeniably publicly demoted by her beloved school.

I don't buy the reading of this incident that signals Margot as brilliant nun-to-be at all, to be honest, though it's possible that's how EBD meant it and I'm interested that some of you do read it that way. Margot strikes me as having become a thoroughly nasty piece of work, who should probably do something for a living that won't allow her to be inauthority over other people. (Like be a hermit? A Lighthouse-keeper? )

I also don't think it's a one-off - there's a tennis lesson in Jane, I think, where Margot is also very sarcastic and hectoring. I wouldn't think twice about such behaviour in real life ( I used to hide from PE lessons!) or in books with less idealised characters, but for a prefect to regularly abuse her power with impunity at the CS is shocking!


I loved the drabble too! And yes, a Nancy-and-Joey scene on the subject would have been good.

I'd be interested to know if EBD had the nun career in mind for Margot by this point in the series, really - especially considering that by all accounts she didn't write much of Prefects.

Margot's a realistic character - much like Grizel is... The problem is that as Daughter-of-Joey she can't be treated realistically.

And it's also interesting that in a vote for favourite characters here, she came nowhere, whereas Len and Con were both up there, BUT when it comes to being a subject for drabbles, she seems to leave the other two in the dust.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Cat C wrote:
Margot's a realistic character - much like Grizel is... The problem is that as Daughter-of-Joey she can't be treated realistically.

... BUT when it comes to being a subject for drabbles, she seems to leave the other two in the dust.


Yes, that's exactly the problem - it's a clash between realism (and Margot is perfectly realistic) and the fact that Maynards are always idealised. It's all very well for, say, Thekla von Stift or Joan Baker to be CS 'failures' in their different ways, because it can be blamed on bad parenting, but obviously Margot's family is intended by EBD to be as perfect as her school environment, so the finger of blame can't be pointed at either. I think EBD then doesn't know how to explain her 'badness', apart from her 'devil'. And she makes the CS look weak in a way I can't think of any other character doing, exactly as JayB brings out in her drabble, by letting her get away with mistreating other girls, and putting her in a position of authority.

Which might explain so many drabbles - there's way more to say.

Author:  Emma A [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

With regard to Margot's parenting from Joey and Jack - and to a lesser extent, from Len - it's interesting to see how much Joey and Len try to shield Margot from the consequences of her uncontrolled bad temper. Joey, for example, doesn't tell Jack about Margot's tantrums when she's small, and Len covers up for her sister in all sorts of ways: Con is more detached. It's as though they fear her outbreaks and have to propitiate her in fear of what she might do if they didn't.

I find that both Len and Margot are treated very leniently by the school for serious transgressions of the moral code (Len's outright lies to her fellow-pupils about Betty's injury are seen as understandable and there is no authorial or headmistressial condemnation of her actions). Con's fairly minor lapses, however, are treated quite severely.

I like to read into Margot's bad behaviour and Con's "mooniness" a rebellion against being perfect Chalet School Girls - whereas poor Len never does (at school, anyway).

Author:  JayB [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Thanks for the comments on the drabble, everyone. I ran out of inspiration at that point, and didn't feel up to tackling Joey's reaction. I do hope to revisit that universe at some time. (After writing this, I had some sympathy for the way EBD tends to resort to 'no-one ever knew what Miss Annersley said...' Study scenes are quite hard to write.)

Someone - I think it was Fiona Mc, apologies for not remembering properly - did take up the story at the point I left it and wrote a continuation. I expect it's in the archives.

Margot's ambition to be a nun is foreshadowed at least as far back as Theodora, maybe earlier. The problem is that EBD shows us plenty of examples of Margot being bad, but she only ever *tells* us, through Len and others, that she has reformed. We never actually *see* Margot being especially brave or selfless or empathetic to balance out the earlier badness.

(Whereas Joan Baker, in contrast, does several brave or tactful or unselfish things that are never acknowledged as such and remains the bad girl.)

We're told that Margot wants to be a nun, but we're given no idea of why she wants to, or why we should think she'd be well suited to it. Or why she would make a good doctor. Whereas we're shown throughout Len and Con's schooldays how Len is a good teacher and Con is imaginative.

With other girls who come to the school as problem girls, EBD can let them fade into the background when they've served their purpose. She couldn't do that with Margot, and I don't think she knew what to do with her once she'd reformed.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I think that maybe the triplets were "labelled" from so early on that EBD found it difficult to let them change. We're told several times that Con has matured, but then in (IIRC) the second to last book she is blamed for causing a near-accident because she was being "dreamy".

I find it hard to see Margot as either a doctor (we're never told that she's good at science, whereas we're told from early on that Con is good at history and English and Len is good at history and languages) or a nun (she hasn't got any self-discipline). The "devil" business is very odd too: it's understandable that a small child might blame a "devil", but the Maynards all still talk about "him" (the devil) very seriously when Margot is in her mid-teens :roll: .

Author:  Emma A [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

There are hints all the way through Challenge that Margot is a bad coach, sarcastic and critical. Miss Dene, however, seems to have a better attitude to coaching than either the games mistress or games prefect:
EBD wrote:
From Evelyn’s point of view [Miss Dene] was to be much preferred to Margot Maynard. No more than Miss Burnett had Margot any use for slackers. She had not spared to use a mordant tongue to its full extent when irritated by the new girl’s former lackadaisical play and, unlike the mistress, she never knew when to leave off. As a result there was no love lost between her and Evelyn.

Miss Dene had no liking for triflers, either, but she had early taken Evelyn’s measure and knew that sharp scolding would only set her back up and make her play worse in the long run. She tried encouragement and careful explanations of the why of her remarks and soon obtained much better results. The practice this morning went off better than usual. Evelyn really tried at left wing and even brought off one or two quite brilliant strokes, fully meriting Miss Dene’s unstinted praise.

Margot only praises Evelyn, for example, after Evelyn has decided to play as well as she can, and it's no thanks to Margot that she decides to do so. In Jane, too, Margot tends to criticise rather than point out the good things or explain how her charges can improve their tennis.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Emma A wrote:
There are hints all the way through Challenge that Margot is a bad coach, sarcastic and critical. Miss Dene, however, seems to have a better attitude to coaching than either the games mistress or games prefect...


It's pretty damning, isn't it, when you think about it, that the school secretary, who is (a) very busy and giving up free time and (b) not a trained teacher of any kind, gets more out of an unsettled and not particularly talented new girl than either the games mistress or the games prefect? I mean, I find it outrageous that Miss Dene agrees to give up her scant free time to coach, but it's very generous, and makes Margot (who was thrilled at being appointed games pree but is furious at having to give up free time to take a lesson in Challenge) look bad.

Is it normal (in other GO books or real life) for games prefects to regularly take games lessons for lower forms in school time - act as unpaid mistresses? I didn't think this would be a regular part of their duties, as surely it must involve either them either cutting into their own games or their own classes...

Author:  Cat C [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sunglass wrote:
Emma A wrote:
There are hints all the way through Challenge that Margot is a bad coach, sarcastic and critical. Miss Dene, however, seems to have a better attitude to coaching than either the games mistress or games prefect...


It's pretty damning, isn't it, when you think about it, that the school secretary, who is (a) very busy and giving up free time and (b) not a trained teacher of any kind, gets more out of an unsettled and not partiuclarly talented new girl than either the games mistress or the games prefect?


I think PE / PT / Games often suffers more than other subjects by being taught by people who not only can't understand that some people aren't naturally good, but also can't understand why other people aren't just loving every minute of it.

I remember a long discussion on another board on the subject of school games lessons. I sort of experienced both sides - good at swimming, in the team etc, but generally indifferent / hostile to everything else, as done in school anyway. Seemed very odd that other people didn't enjoy swimming, but I don't think it occured to me until I was an adult that there were some people who actually chose to play hockey (for example).

Author:  Emma A [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sunglass wrote:
Is it normal (in other GO books or real life) for games prefects to regularly take games lessons for lower forms in school time - act as unpaid mistresses? I didn't think this would be a regular part of their duties, as surely it must involve either them either cutting into their own games or their own classes...

It's fairly normal in GO books for Games prefects to supervise their juniors and to coach. Lois Sanger in Cricket Term, for example, is regarded ironically as someone who rarely did any coaching until she began coaching forms drawn against Nicola's form in the Cricket Cup. Certainly the games captains in Clare Mallory's books take a keen interest in the younger girls, and are often watching or coaching matches.

In Challenge, Margot had been going to ask Miss Burnett to excuse her from the afternoon's lesson, since she wanted to do some work she'd forgotten, and Miss Burnett had to take another form for gym as a punishment. So that implies that normally the games mistress would have taken the practice herself with Margot and the other sub-prefects helping out. I find it odd that Joan Dancey didn't have a quiet word with Margot about the way she was treating the Fifth, rather than just keeping quiet. Though perhaps she didn't want a hockey stick in her face...

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

JayB wrote:
Margot's ambition to be a nun is foreshadowed at least as far back as Theodora, maybe earlier. The problem is that EBD shows us plenty of examples of Margot being bad, but she only ever *tells* us, through Len and others, that she has reformed. We never actually *see* Margot being especially brave or selfless or empathetic to balance out the earlier badness.


In one of the later books - Summer Term, maybe? - Margot offers to go visit someone at the San when it's suggested they need company, surprising her friends. It's only a small gesture, but it does show that Margot really is trying to be more selfless.

I think the problem is that EBD wanted to show her 'lapsing', but her lapses are often worse than her ordinary naughtiness as a child.

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I think EBD then doesn't know how to explain her 'badness', apart from her 'devil'. Quote from Sunglasses.

It's easier to transfer blame for bad behaviour onto some other entity than to face the possibility of either faulty nature or nurture. Margot's 'devil' is a convenient cop out for the Maynards and may be the reason why the worst of her transgression are covered up or, worse still, blamed on others for causing them.
On a different tack, does any one else see the similarity between Margot on the games field and the bossy, unpopular Moira Linton of Malory Towers fame? Fair play to Enid, she presents Moira's hard and domineering character as unlikeable and unacceptable. Moira incurs the disapproval of teachers and the dislike of the girls in a way that Margot doesn't.

Author:  Emma A [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

MJKB wrote:
On a different tack, does any one else see the similarity between Margot on the games field and the bossy, unpopular Moira Linton of Malory Towers fame? Fair play to Enid, she presents Moira's hard and domineering character as unlikeable and unacceptable. Moira incurs the disapproval of teachers and the dislike of the girls in a way that Margot doesn't.

This is one of the things that struck me while reading Challenge and Triplets - whenever there's any outbreak of Margot's temper, she's suitably penitent, and the teachers with whom she's been confessing her misdeeds (Miss Annersley or Miss Burnett) remark sapiently that she "has a hard row to hoe" and say no more. It's hardly surprising that Margot doesn't make more of an effort to keep her temper when any break-out is barely punished. I seriously think she ought to have been expelled, or at least suspended, or treated as a Junior for the rest of term after the bookend incident.

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Emma A wrote:
- whenever there's any outbreak of Margot's temper, she's suitably penitent, and the teachers with whom she's been confessing her misdeeds (Miss Annersley or Miss Burnett) remark sapiently that she "has a hard row to hoe" and say no more.


When you put it like that, it sounds outrageous, especially when you think of the other CS girls at various points, who've had what we would probably all agree are desperately tough 'rows to hoe' but aren't granted endless licence because of it.

No one appears to feel the need to forgive Eustacia Benson instantly for smacking Kitty Burnett's face, although she has just lost both parents one after the other before her arrival at the CS, or to introduce special pleading for, say, Joyce Linton or Odette Mercier or the Pension Caramie set, because of their seriously ill family members. Margot, comparatively speaking, has a very stable, enviable life.

Author:  CBW [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Quote:
Margot, comparatively speaking, has a very stable, enviable life.


thinking it through, it really is weird. Margot had a stable family background with the support of her triplets. Maybe the Canada bit might have unsettle her a little but no more so that the Bettany girls living apart from their family for so long and yet she is treated as though her temper is some physical disability that erupts without any expectation that she should be able to control it.

There is some mention of Thekla or Eustacia (??) being a potential murderer because of their actions but no-one mentions to Margo that if that bookend had hit in the wrong place then should could actually have been facing murder charges.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

CBW wrote:
There is some mention of Thekla or Eustacia (??) being a potential murderer because of their actions but no-one mentions to Margo that if that bookend had hit in the wrong place then should could actually have been facing murder charges.


Thekla was told that if Mrs Linton, who was seriously ill with TB, had died of shock after mistakenly getting the impression that Joyce had been expelled for voluntarily taking part in a midnight feast which Thekla had happened to be at too, then she (Thekla) would have been a murderess.

I know she was a horrible character, but she really didn't deserve that!

Author:  Emma A [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

CBW wrote:
There is some mention of Thekla or Eustacia (??) being a potential murderer because of their actions but no-one mentions to Margot that if that bookend had hit in the wrong place then should could actually have been facing murder charges.

Miss Annersley, to be fair to her, does say
EBD wrote:
“And so,” she said in measured tones, “ because you are a coward, you have come near to killing another girl. If the blow had been less than half-an-inch nearer the temple Betty might be dead now. Do you realize that?”

and this is the first time Margot realises the seriousness of her action. However, Miss Annersley goes on to reflect:
EBD wrote:
Miss Annersley looked at her thoughtfully. Between the pain of her tooth and the shock of Betty's injury, she thought she had had nearly enough.

and then waves the threat of expulsion, before withdrawing it again:
Quote:
"... I tell you plainly, Margot, that if this is to go on I must ask your parents to remove you. I cannot undertake such a responsibility any longer. I must think of the other girls ... No; I shall not expel you now. I will give you another chance. I am hoping that the clear knowledge of what might have happened will help you to try harder and to keep on trying. You are to stay here this morning until I come to you again. Until then, I want you to think of what I have said and to pray to God that you may be given strength to fight this bosom enemy of yours."

And that's Margot's sole punishment, as far as I can tell.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

With regards to Margot's temper, I would be more inclined to blame Joey than Jack. In Rescue when Margot tries to throw a tantrum and Jack goes to sort it out, in the narrative it says:

Quote:
Jo had generally contrived to keep Margot's sudden fits of rage from him, and he was very little at home during the daytime. This was the first time for more than a year that he had met one of them, and he was determined to put a stop to them as soon as possible.


This suggests that Jack really knows very little of what goes on - though as we see with the Mike incident later on, Joey could have her reasons for that - and so, if Joey tries to hush up any bad behaviour, it would be difficult for her to punish Margot without drawing attention to it.

I always feel sorry for Margot anyway - she is told she is selfish constantly, but when you think about it, she has always had to share her mother's attention with so many other children. Half of Joey's brood seem to be closer to the Coadjutor and Anna than they do Joey! Perhaps her temper is, in part, a way of asking for attention?

Author:  Chelsea [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Alison H wrote:
CBW wrote:
There is some mention of Thekla or Eustacia (??) being a potential murderer because of their actions but no-one mentions to Margo that if that bookend had hit in the wrong place then should could actually have been facing murder charges.


Thekla was told that if Mrs Linton, who was seriously ill with TB, had died of shock after mistakenly getting the impression that Joyce had been expelled for voluntarily taking part in a midnight feast which Thekla had happened to be at too, then she (Thekla) would have been a murderess.

I know she was a horrible character, but she really didn't deserve that!


I didn't think it was the midnight feast - it was the bit in Rebel where Thekla draws Joyce out of her room for a "midnight chat" and when caught (by Bill) tries to place the blame on Joyce.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sorry - must be my bad memory :oops: . I still think that calling Thekla a potential murderess was a bit OTT, though!

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I always feel sorry for Margot anyway - she is told she is selfish constantly, but when you think about it, she has always had to share her mother's attention with so many other children... Perhaps her temper is, in part, a way of asking for attention?


Well, it's interesting that, if we read Margot this way, we're definitely reading against the grain of EBD's conscious intention. She endlessly makes it plain that Freudesheim is unquestionably a utopian Happy Home. We're supposed to see Joey as perfect mother, full stop, end of story. There is no possibility for the reader to be allowed to imagine Margot's temper as having a basis in some kind of poor parenting/dissatisfaction with home life.

I'm the eldest of a large family myself, and there are certainly aspects of my character I can trace to not having had enough (I felt) privacy or parental attention, but even if we might expect Margot to feel something of this, as you say, there's never a single hint of it, in all the time we spend inside her head! Which is ironic, given that EBD writes rather well about other CS girls (like Jessica Wayne, or even Ted Grantley) feeling they aren't sufficiently loved or given enough attention and who behave badly as a result. And she's also very quick to lay blame for bad behaviour at the feet of other parents, sometimes quite brutally, like Rolf Maynard's death being his parents' fault for spoiling him. If Ted, rather than Margot, had narrowly missed committing manslaughter, it would have been blamed on her silly, unloving mother's neglect, but there's no suggestion of Joey or Jack being to blame for Margot's violence.
.
Which is I think why Margot is so interesting - apart from her 'devil', EBD never gives us any believable reason for her rage. Problem girls are the result of bad parenting, but Margot's parents are perfect, so she can't be a problem girl. But she is a problem girl, so her parents must be at fault, only they're perfect, etc etc.

Author:  Emma A [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sunglass wrote:
Which is I think why Margot is so interesting - apart from her 'devil', EBD never gives us any believable reason for her rage. Problem girls are the result of bad parenting, but Margot's parents are perfect, so she can't be a problem girl. But she is a problem girl, so her parents must be at fault, only they're perfect, etc etc.

Quite! I suppose in the 19th century, Margot's selfishness and quick temper would have been put down to Original Sin, and it would have been incumbent on her to control that temper. Jo March, for example, makes believable attempts throughout Little Women to control her own temper, particularly after she fails to warn Amy about the ice on the river, and the latter almost drowns. But we very seldom see Margot control her "devil" - there's a rare example in Theodora, where she makes herself be pleasant to Ted on one occasion, and feels pleased to have done so, afterwards. Too often she's only contrite after the event. Perhaps EBD thought that her readers would find small battles uninteresting compared to a grand scene of horror and near-expulsion!

Somewhat OT, but does anyone else find Len's conspiracy to cover-up the book-end throwing morally appalling? And she makes Alicia, who is Betty's best friend, complicit in the deception, too. Alicia lies to her form-mates, saying that Betty fell and cracked her head - and Monica Garstin, listening, says that really someone ought to have a word with Karen to make sure that the floors aren't so highly polished!

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I think it's wrong that Len tried to cover it all up, but I think it's understandable in that she's trying to protect her sister: what was really "morally wrong" was that neither EBD nor any of the characters who knew what had really happened criticise dher for it. Whether or not to tell a few lies to cover up a friend or relative's wrongdoing is a pretty common moral dilemma: it would have been good to see someone point out that Len, whom EBD generally treated as being above reproach, had done the "wrong" thing but for good reasons.

Had, for example, Priscilla Dawbarn tried to hush up something bad that Prudence had done, I'm pretty sure that EBD would have presented it differently.

Or maybe EBD saw it as Len just trying to keep the peace?

Author:  JayB [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I wonder if it's not so much Len covering up for Margot, as Len doing what she thought Miss Annersley would do, that is, discouraging rumours and gossip? Miss A. usually forbade the girls to talk about serious incidents. Len didn't try to conceal what had happened from anyone in authority, only from the other girls. The way she went about it might have been wrong, but I think her motives were honest.

I do think more consideration should have been shown to Alicia. She and Betty had been best friends for a long time, and I think she's supposed to be delicate, isn't she? Someone should have taken the time to reassure her, but instead it's Margot who gets all the attention.

Author:  jennifer [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I think it was very unfair to make Margot Games Prefect in the first place - both to her and to the other girls. She's good at games, but she doesn't have the temperament to be good at teaching them - she's not very empathic, she's short tempered and impatient, doesn't know when to stop nagging, and doesn't seem to like teaching at all. It's like they are setting her up to fail.

I think she'd have been much happier doing something like library prefect, or music prefect, where she didn't have to spend a lot of time interacting with other people.

Author:  Cath V-P [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

It's this anomalous position that games is in - it's a school subject, but it's also perceived as a hobby in that a lot of the organisation and assessment is on the hands of the girls, particularly the senior girls, in the way that no other curriculum subject is. So the games prefect - or prefects - essentially ends up doing a lot of teaching whether or not she is actually fitted for it. And as the CS doesn't seem to appoint more than one games mistress at a time, a lot of the teaching has to devolve on others, be they other staff members or prefects. I don't think this in any way excuses Margot's conduct, as she does have quite the wrong approach to coaching/teaching but then it is hinted at elsewhere that she doesn't find it particularly easy to deal with the younger girls.

Author:  Mel [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

She is so like Grizel in many ways: a wild Middle, popular, pretty, good at games, quick-tempered, selfish, given to short-term repentance and improvement. It's interesting therefore that Grizel, instead of empathising, thinks that she wouldn't trust her as far as she could throw her - or something similar in 'Reunion.'

Author:  LizzieC [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

jennifer wrote:
I think she'd have been much happier doing something like library prefect, or music prefect, where she didn't have to spend a lot of time interacting with other people.


I think I'd agree with that, which then leads to a rather interesting question in light of that assumption which is "How good a doctor would she actually have been?" :?

Author:  Catrin [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Mel wrote:
She is so like Grizel in many ways: a wild Middle, popular, pretty, good at games, quick-tempered, selfish, given to short-term repentance and improvement. It's interesting therefore that Grizel, instead of empathising, thinks that she wouldn't trust her as far as she could throw her - or something similar in 'Reunion.'


I am always less tolerant of other people when I can see my own faults in them. Now I know that i do it, I'm more patient, but perhaps Grizel is the same.

Author:  Kate [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Depends what kind of doctor, I imagine. Lots (and lots) of doctors are very bad at interacting with people but unless they're a GP, many doctors don't have *that* much interaction with their patients so it's not really noticed.

Author:  JayB [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

jennifer wrote:
I think it was very unfair to make Margot Games Prefect in the first place - both to her and to the other girls....


Ruey would have been a better choice, I think. She is going in for games after leaving school, so she must be a good all-rounder and it would be useful for her to able to say she had been Games Pre at school. She's friendly and good tempered and she demonstrated in her first term at the CS that she can make girls enthusiastic about games and is quite good at teaching and coaching. Yet she doesn't even get to be Second Games Pre.

Author:  Lottie [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

It's a long time since I've read the later Swiss books, so I've probably got this wrong. I would have assumed that Ruey, who apparently slacked a bit over lessons and prep at her London school, would have been going to have another year at the CS, and could have been Games Pre then.

Author:  JayB [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

It's said in Prefects (by Len, I think, and she should know) that Ruey is leaving at the end of term. I suppose the authorities could have decided that Ruey had better concentrate on lessons for the reasons you said, and not hold any major school office, although it's not stated.

And the same could arguably be said of Margot, who had also slacked when younger, and who in Challenge was having trouble managing schoolwork and games practice!

Author:  Nightwing [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

What qualities were expected in a Games Prefect, anyway? Quite often it just seems to go to someone who is the best all-rounder - is there any discussion in the books of what makes a good Games Prefect?

Author:  Mel [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

She was Games Prefect because she was a Maynard and GP was always a plum job. I think another job would have suited her - but what? We are never really shown what her skills are.

Author:  JayB [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Nightwing wrote:
What qualities were expected in a Games Prefect, anyway? Quite often it just seems to go to someone who is the best all-rounder - is there any discussion in the books of what makes a good Games Prefect?


I suppose she'd need to be good, but not necessarily oustanding, all round. Good organisational skills, because she's got to keep track of teams, matches, practices etc. Patient, tactful, firm, good with Juniors and Middles.

I suppose it's a reflection of EBD's general lack of interest in organised games that the Games Pres aren't memorable in the way that Head Girls are. Elfie was Games out of Bride's crowd. Joan Sandys in Peggy's year. Annis Lovell was Games. Was Clem Games Pre? I think she'd have been a good one. Was it Vi in Mary Lou's year? Ailie would have been, I think. Who else?

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I think Hilary was Games Prefect when Mary-Lou was Head Girl, but I'm not sure.

As someone who was utterly useless at any sort of sport at school I fully sympathise with EBD's lack of interest in Games, but it means that we miss out on a lot of "obvious" plots ... unhappy/unpopular new girl becomes a heroine by scoring the winning goal in a vital match, girl gets whacked by a hockey stick and collapses dramatically, panic ensues when star player gets ill just before a match, and so on. I know that Enid Blyton uses them so often that they become clichés, but they'd've made a change later in the CS series when you start to feel that you've read about one avalanche too many :lol: .

Seriously, it's a shame because people who didn't particularly shine in other ways could have shone at Games. Katharine Gordon's the only one whose main attribute is her sporting ability. It would have been nice to see Joan Baker, whom EBD doesn't half have a down on, lauded for her tennis ability, and some of the other people who weren't very good at anything make their mark in sport.

Author:  claire [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Margot would have been an anaesthetist - they don't have to talk much to their patients :wink:

Author:  Ariel [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Was Games Prefect a head's appointment?

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Ariel wrote:
Was Games Prefect a head's appointment?


It was along with Head Girl and Second Prefect. Except if Hilda Annersley specifically asks for a girl to fulfill and particular role such as Frances Coleman as Junior Prefect as she did in Peggy or when Hilda had the collected mistresses throw their behind Con Maynard and asked Hilda to appoint her as Magazine Prefect in Challenge against Hilda's better judgement! I do remember in Genius at the Chalet School the Prefects vote Blossom to be Second Games Prefect

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

I've just finished reading JayB's aforementioned drabble and enjoyed it immensely. Fantastic how she captures the very essence of all the characters. It might be EBD herself at her best. (I've been toying with the idea of starting a drabble myself but have been put off by reading other peoples' efforts. I couldn't hope to reach anything like that standard). Anyway, it made me question once again why Margot was not pulled up sharply for her appalling assault on Betty Landon the previous year. Perhaps had she been suspended for that incident, which, btw, she well deserved - at the very least, she might have made a greater effort not to take her bad temper out on others, especially those over whom she had been given authority. As for her medical ambitions, I wouldn't like to find myself in an A&E Department with her as a doctor, especially if she was at the end of a long shift. She'd make a good Reverend Mother, though, I'm with CBW on this. Every poor nun who came up against her would get years of remission in purgatory for putting up with her.

Author:  Clare [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Sometimes in the books they ask another prefect to assist the Games prefect, especially if they are not an all rounder and only excel in one sport. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head though... But they don't necessarily have to be an all rounder to be awarded the post.

MJKB - please share your drabbles!! The more we have to read, the better :reading:

Author:  MJKB [ Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

Thank you Clare, I'll try. Everybody is so nice on this site!

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Margot Maynard - Bad Games Prefect?

It's always lovely to see new drabbles by new authors :D .

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