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Margot
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Author:  andi [ Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Margot
I ought to start this with a disclaimer – I know practically nothing about psychology so this might all be nonsense. Having said that – I was thinking about Margot today and reasons for the way she behaves. She’s sent away from her family at a young age, which would presumably cause any child to feel a bit rejected, especially when she is a triplet being separated from her other ‘trips’. When Len and Con arrive in Canada a year later, they are naturally going to be closer to each other than to the sister they haven’t seen in a year, which would make Margot feel like an outsider even within her own family. Her behaviour in Changes (or whichever book it is that has the Maynards returning and the school packing up to go to Switzerland) has that sort of defiant ring of a child acting up partly to get attention and partly maybe subconsciously trying to prove that she doesn’t care about being the outsider by disobeying the family rules (calling Joey ‘Mom’ instead of ‘Mamma’ etc). Then Len and Con start to have other friends, which would just add to Margot’s feeling that she is not important to them, and results in the whole Theodora debacle. You could even say that her desire to become a nun could be a way of her choosing another family, one that will love her for what she is.

What does anyone else think?
Author:  jennifer [ Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:34 am ]
Post subject: 
It makes sense, I think.

You could also throw in the fact that she was spoiled as a young child because she was physically frail - used to being coddled and the centre of attention, and being labelled the 'naughty triplet' from a young age for her behaviour.

I wonder too - in the year she was in Canada, she was part of a small family, just Josette, Margot, and later the babies. Then she gets flung back into her family with seven siblings and various wards - the focus of a small family, away from her triplets must have been a very different experience for her. Madge, too, is a much older mother than Joey, and with a much calmer temperament.

The triplets' coping mechanisms in their family are pretty interesting. Len conforms - she's the perfect daughter, conscientious, reliable, hardworking, high achieving, a leader, the one mother leans on. Con retreats - she drifts into her imaginary worlds and story telling, removed from the real world of family and school, giving her a mental escape. Margot rebells - she gets into trouble, slacks at her schoolwork, is impulsive and quick tempered.
Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I think Margot's defiance and laziness is all about Len, as is Con's vagueness.

Given how much responsibility Len, who tries to please, gets stuck with from an early age, so that she's virtually middle-aged by her teens, I can entirely see why Margot and Con don't go down that route, but choose to be wilful, hot-tempered and vaguely schizoid (Margot and her devil) and dreamy, absent-minded and creative (Con - who is also trying to be her mother as a writer, so is trying to 'please' in a different way to Len). Len has the Good Eldest Daughter role covered, so to me it makes total sense that the other triplets choose a different identity, even if that identity tends to be seen as problematic compared to Len's perfection. (I am the eldest of a large family, and while I'm not Len, within our family, I am Brains, my next sister is Beauty and the next again is Rebel, and it's certainly had an impact on all our lives.)

Because Len's role doesn't look that attractive close-up. In 'A Future CS Girl', there's the scene where Len begs not to be made a prefect because she doesn't want the extra responsibility (on top of what she gets at home, although that's not stated) - and I always find it significant that it's Joey she's saying it to, because school and Freudesheim are so mingled that it doesn't seem to occur to her to talk to the Head rather than her mother, because she is essentially already a prefect at home, if not head girl. No wonder she has difficulty telling the difference.

Margot gets to see this at close range, and, as we're always being told she's the cleverest triplet, sees that the more you give, the more you're expected to give, and opts out. By embracing a bad girl identity, she gets attention for her misdeeds, and she also gets praise when she behaves reasonably or does reasonably well at school (whereas no one praises Len and Con for being several forms ahead of their age group - it's expected.).

Also, a reputation for having a bad temper can be quite a powerful position. Even as a small child, Margot's tantrums disturbed Joey enough to go to great lengths to hide them from Jack ('Jo to the Rescue'). When the triplets have to become day-girls in 'Coming of Age', Joey is intimidated enough to actually ask Mary-Lou to break the news in advance to Margot's friend, for fear of Emerence upsetting Margot with her response. I always think it's significant Margot chooses a bad-girl friend whose chief exploit pre-CS was burning down the summer house.

PS - sorry if I created any confusion on the thread - accidentally posted two versions of this and had to delete.
Author:  JayB [ Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Margot was a highly intelligent child who liked to be physically active and had a shorter attention span than Len or Con. I wonder if, as a small girl, she was dreadfully bored and frustrated by nursery life and by the additional limitations imposed on her as a result of her ill health, and that might have contributed to her tantrums. I always think that the nursery routine described in the books wasn't very stimulating for children once they were past toddler stage.
Author:  Jenefer [ Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Margot's behaviour is a way of gettting attention which must have been difficult in a large busy household like the Maynards. Also the strict nursery regime would not have suited her personality. She is the sort of child who would have questioned the rules and not complied with instant obedience.
At school, she must have been compared unfavourably with her sisters on occasions. This would have been discouraging and must have affected her self confidence.
Author:  Mel [ Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
I feel that EBD didn't quite know what to do with Margot. She is mentioned as delicate as a small child, but always 'improving', there is never the suggestion that she can't do as much as the others. Then in 'Island' she is delicate again and sent off to Canada. There she is cured completely, so can't be the interesting fragile child that EBD so loved. As a small child she is wilful and selfish, but again with Maynard training she is slowly improving, with minor blips such as Lake Lucerne which is her first wake-up call. But EBD can't let her alone, her selfishness becomes disturbing and she is still behaving in an abominable way as Games Prefect! I suppose she is too important to 'reform' like the army of saved new girls. Unlike Len who is keen on languages, Con with her writing, Margot has no definite talents or interests, so is palmed off with games for some reason. EBD has to make the triplets so different, even to eye colour that I think she ran out of ideas - in despperation she makes her a nun!
Author:  Alex [ Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's interesting, because I find Margot's decision to be a nun completely believable. Yes, a bit off the wall, but you can see the hints that she is aware of her vocation for a long time (and possibly fighting) and then once she comes to terms with it she goes all out for it, works hard etc. What I don't think is possible is that she worked the whole thing out without some kind of spiritual director, whether on a formal or informal basis and I wonder who that could have been.
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I get the feeling that Joey and Jack don't quite know what to do with their more active, strong willed children.

Len, Con, Steve and Charles are all pretty even tempered and obedient, even from a young age. They do what their parents want, handle changes to their lifestyle well, are fairly calm and willing to go with the flow.

Margot and Mike, on the other hand, are active, bright, strong willed children who are not natural conformists, and Joey and Jack seem unable to parent that type of personality. For example, Margot would be the type to do well with calm, steady consistent parenting, with firm, enforced limits, but also the room to grow in her own way, rather than trying to fit her into a template (high achieving leader) that she's not suited for. Joey is a pretty volatile character herself, and can switch from stern mother figure to best friend let's play mode in an instant, and when she gets revved up she can be pretty overwhelming. Joey also expects a lot more from her children than she could have managed at the same age.
Author:  JackieP [ Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Alex wrote:
What I don't think is possible is that she worked the whole thing out without some kind of spiritual director, whether on a formal or informal basis and I wonder who that could have been.


Someone's drabble (can't remember whose, sorry) suggests, and I agree that it's quite likely, that Margot speaks to Grace Nalder about it. She's working at Millies and so is quite accessible. There's also the possibility of writing to Robin (which someone else drabbled).

JackieP
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Jenefer wrote:
At school, she must have been compared unfavourably with her sisters on occasions. This would have been discouraging and must have affected her self confidence.


In one book, Kathie Ferrars tells Margot - in front of the whole class - that someone with her brains should have come higher up the form lists and that she needs to try harder and see if she can come closer to Len and Con. Telling someone who is intelligent but doesn't work hard that they aren't doing as well as they could do is fair enough, but saying that they should try to do as well as their sisters really isn't appropriate.

It's a shame that none of the extended family lived nearby, as they might have provided some support for some of the Maynards. Madge, who also had to take on a lot of responsibility from an early age, might have been someone whom Len could have talked to had they seen more of each other, and maybe some of Jack's family (not sure whom though!) could have been a help to Margot on the religion issue.
Author:  LizzieC [ Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
JackieP wrote:
Alex wrote:
What I don't think is possible is that she worked the whole thing out without some kind of spiritual director, whether on a formal or informal basis and I wonder who that could have been.

Someone's drabble (can't remember whose, sorry) suggests, and I agree that it's quite likely, that Margot speaks to Grace Nalder about it.


I think the drabble you're thinking of might be A Change of Heart - Margot's Story by Fiona Mc. It's in St Mildred's.
Author:  KatS [ Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
In my head, Margot would be "one of the cool kids" in a modern high school - she's pretty, popular, sophisticated, laid back about schoolwork but still gets decent (by non-Maynard standard) results, she's sporty, a bit mouthy/rebellious, gets in trouble with the teachers from time to time, is charming and vivacious but also likes wielding her social power etc etc.

Like Grizel, actually. I hadn't realized how alike they were. And of course EBD portrays them as being more innocent and CS-ish than "cool" implies(as is everyone in the series, except for Betty and Elizabeth in their make-up stage, and maybe also Juliet and the film stunt - and of course Joan Baker with her boy(s)...).

Len on the other hand is the teacher's pet, good at everything, hard-working, mildly popular in a she's friendly, and no-one really dislikes her kind of way, but not the Queen Bee in the way Margot could be and Joyce wants to be when she arrives.

I have a soft spot for Margot - I think the Ted incident is bad, and the Betty incident too - but compare Margot and Deira - did anything happen to Deira in the end? And girls of fourteen or so can be very catty and gossipy. It's only the CS atmosphere that make the Ted incident seem like blackmail to me. If it had been on the level of spreading gossip and rumours, which I would see as a more likely scenario than confronting Ted, it would have been a nasty thing to do, but not at all implausible or unusual in girls that age (or people of any age, really).

After waffling on like this, what I really meant to say was that I don't see Margot as unusually "bad". There were dozens of Margots at my high school - no one would have considered there was anything wrong with the parenting. It's just in the context of all the perfectly friendly, fair, and honourable CS girls that her behaviour stands out.
Author:  Meg14 [ Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I always liked Margot too and I always felt sorry for her being sent to Canada at such a young age. It must have been very traumatic being removed from her sisters with whom she was close and they would have kept on being close without her-she must have felt left out. I am sure that Madge would have looked after her but of course she would have been pregnant with her twins and then giving birth to them and thus I presume forced to rest in bed for ages. Jem I can’t see being sympathetic to a young girl and in any event would have been very busy with all his doctoring! Even if she knew it was for the sake of her health she must have been left feeling very lonely and isolated and I can’t imagine that that helped a difficult personality. I read the same drabble I think as everyone else and the idea that this could have had a real effect on her as she grew up seemed to me to be very realistic!
The other thing that fascinated me about Margot was that she became a nun. I always wanted to know more about why she decides this. In many ways I found it very frustrating that Len was always concentrated on so much and in the end she just settles down to the typical Chalet School ideal of marrying a doctor. Margot makes a much more interesting decision not just to become a nun but also to have a career as a doctor and go off and treat tropical diseases (which must have been even more exotic now than it was then!) and to me in spite of the hints it seems to come out of nowhere!
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it's a shame that we don't see more of the friendship between Margot and Emerence. Although there are a lot of references to it - usually with Emerence's name being followed by "one of the naughtiest girls in the annals of the school" (although she never really did anything that bad after the first term), we never see anything like the conversations that we see between Joey and her close friends about their plans for the future. I'd like to've "seen" Margot discussing her plan to become a nun with Emerence during her visit to the Hopes Australia in ... whichever one of the later Swiss books it is! Most CS girls are part of a gang or at least a group of three: "pairs" of best friends are surprisingly rare, especially for a girls' school.

As KatS said, Margot would certainly be more popular than Len in most schools - the bit in Ruey where Francie is jealous of Ruey because she'd hoped that she could be best friends with Margot after Emerence left always seems pretty realistic to me.
Author:  Loryat [ Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
In Mallory Towers it seems to be expected that all the girls would pair up, which must have been horrible if you were an odd number and the odd one out! Even Bill, who pals about with Sally and Darrell for one book, ends up in a 'pair' with Clarissa.

Margot's jealousy of Ted always really annoys me as I think EBD was just thinking, what bad storyline can I give Margot in this book. In Problem Margot gives no sign of being jealous of Rosamund, there's even a bit where she gives her a 'chummy grin' or something at the first evening. And yet in Theodora Rosamund actually says 'even now Margot's not too happy about us being friends' - which just comes out of nowhere!
Author:  Maeve [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Alison H said:
Quote:
In one book, Kathie Ferrars tells Margot - in front of the whole class - that someone with her brains should have come higher up the form lists and that she needs to try harder and see if she can come closer to Len and Con. Telling someone who is intelligent but doesn't work hard that they aren't doing as well as they could do is fair enough, but saying that they should try to do as well as their sisters really isn't appropriate.


Oh, I used to get this from my teachers all the time, about my older sister. And my friends who had older sisters or cousins in the school would also be told the same thing, "Why aren't you more like your sister? You should do better in maths/geography/French whatever -- your sister is really good." We thought it was pretty typical grown-up/teacher talk :)
Author:  JennieP [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it's interesting that even while EBD comes up with a psychologically convincing reaction to the sort of parenting Margot has, she still makes Margot's behavious all her own fault, with resulting moral judgements. It's as though EBD didn't actually understand how the character she was writing became that way - i.e. as a result of Joey's parenting, rather than something innately wrong with her. Surely if EBD had realised why the Margot she was writing was the way she was, she couldn't have continued to idolise Joey's parenting? (Bit convoluted, sorry!)

Could it be said, though, that Margot rather than Len is in fact the ultimate Chalet girl? The baddest ever bad girl reforms in a bang (in the last book), and doesn't merely marry a doctor, but _becomes_ one. Not only that, but is becoming a nun is even more in line with the books' ethos than becoming a "good Catholic wife and mother"?
(Not intended to be disrespectful to RCs, but rather EBD's idealised portrayal of RC family life)
Author:  Jennie [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
As a corollary to this, does anyone think that Len was ever really happy? She was the responsible one from birth, has to do far more than any of the others, has responsibility heaped on her, and no-one ever wonders why she hasn't collapsed under the weight of it all.
Author:  Alison H [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think Len was happy. We see her saying that she doesn't want to become a prefect at an early age, which suggests that she feels overburdened. She feels responsible for the rest of the family to the extent that Mary-Lou tells her to ease up, but she doesn't really get chance to because everyone is used to seeing her as the one they rely on. Joey says (at the time of the train crash in Summer Term) that she knows that if anything happened to her then Len would take charge of the house and the younger kids, and when Charles has appendicitis the one he tells that he feels ill is Len, rather than either Jack or Joey.

She doesn't even seem very happy about getting engaged to Reg: the impression given - IMHO, I know that some people think otherwise - is that she herself isn't ready for that sort of commitment and is only agreeing to it because Reg won't settle for anything less.

I really do like to think that once she got to Oxford she made a new life for herself and thereafter only went back to the Platz to visit.
Author:  Mel [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree about Len. She also has a temper that she totally controls and admits to being very untidy which comes as a complete surprise to her sisters. She could break out at uni or have nervous breakdown.
Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
I feel sorry for Len - she's essentially already a prefect at home, and she's practically middle-aged by the time she hits fifteen or so. (While all the while Joey is playing the eternal schoolgirl!) Isn't it Mary-Lou who tells her after the Ted affair that she's in danger of becoming a fussy, interfering old maid? Which (though I don't see what it has to do with getting married) has a grain of truth, but is also a bit rich when everyone around Len has always expected her to be fussily responsible, and kept telling everyone within hearing that this is what Len is invariably like - good, responsible, kind, caring, Len, who's old for her age etc etc.

I used to find that bit in A Future CS Girl where she runs off up the Barenbad after Melanie a bit out of character - if she were really that responsible, wouldn't she phone home and tell them where she was going, and then take shelter from the thunderstorm, rather than trying to sprint down the mountain path with a convalescent and a large dog? - but now I wonder whether it isn't a rather pathetic desire for adventure. She might be consciously thinking she's trying to save Melanie from a row, but really she's just being (slightly) bad, and fancies breaking bounds a bit, like Margot!
Author:  Emma A [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass wrote:
...but now I wonder whether it isn't a rather pathetic desire for adventure. She might be consciously thinking she's trying to save Melanie from a row, but really she's just being (slightly) bad, and fancies breaking bounds a bit, like Margot!

That's really interesting, Sunglass, since she might still be consciously trying to emulate Joey with that escapade!
Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I never understood why EBD persisted in going on (and on and on) about Len being the "eldest" and therefore "most responsible". Why? The triplets were born on the same day, for heaven's sake, we are talking possibly minutes and maximum hours between her and Margot, yet you would think it years by the way she refers to it.
Author:  JayB [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
that bit in A Future CS Girl where she runs off up the Barenbad after Melanie ....


And gets a lecture from Jack about how she isn't ever allowed to be the slightest bit irresponsible because she's the eldest and whatever she does the younger ones will copy....

It's in the same book, isn't it, that we have Joey's rather smug reflection that Len has never been a problem teenager and her only minor rebellion has been over the pony tail.

Really, it would be a miracle if Len didn't turn to sex'n'drugs'n'rock'n'roll as soon as she got to Oxford. Unless she's been so thoroughly repressed that she hasn't got a smidgeon of rebellion left in her.
Author:  KatS [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
As the eldest, you are largely responsible for the little ones. If they see you disobeying, they will follow suit. If they get into trouble for it, part of the blame is yours.”
Len still had nothing to say. Mélanie spoke up for her. “Please, Dr Maynard, do you think that’s quite – quite fair?”
Before Jack could reply, Len said, “Oh, it’s fair enough, really. The kids do copy me in lots of ways – worse luck! I’ve seen it often enough for myself. Goodness knows I wish they wouldn’t! But there it is. I can tell you, it isn’t all jam, being the eldest in the family!”


That does seem a pretty dreadful thing to say to Len - if your brothers and sisters get in trouble, it's your fault. Melanie realizes it straight away, but poor Len has had responsibility so ground into her that she thinks it's fair, even though she doesn't really like it.
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
Really, it would be a miracle if Len didn't turn to sex'n'drugs'n'rock'n'roll as soon as she got to Oxford. Unless she's been so thoroughly repressed that she hasn't got a smidgeon of rebellion left in her.


I actually think she would rebel at Uni. Probably not in the first year but certainly after that and if she didn't then I could see her going through a mid-life crisis and doing it then

Quote:
It's in the same book, isn't it, that we have Joey's rather smug reflection that Len has never been a problem teenager and her only minor rebellion has been over the pony tail.


The problem is with that its actually healthier for kids to rebel and find their own path and certainly more so while at home and under parents protection a bit more, so Joey shouldn't be so smug but worried. Emotionally in some ways Len isn't as mature as Margot, as she's too scared of her parents to do anything but make them happy. Len when she rebels if she did could turn to more adult things like alcohol/drugs etc and potentially lost or distanced from her parents worse than Margot ever was.

I think Margot was healthier in some ways getting her rebellion out of the way earlier and therefore got on with her own life. It's why I could see her becoming a nun. She had already tried her own path in so many ways and then became more the person she was always meant to be, or rather the best she could be. If Len ever rebelled I could see her never wanting to be anything like what she was at the CS ever again, so would almost always be in a permanant state of rebellion from her parents ideas
Author:  JayB [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The problem is with that its actually healthier for kids to rebel and find their own path


One of the things I think is wrong with the whole Freudesheim/School/Platz set-up, and Joey's style of parenting, for her girls at any rate, is that the triplets have no space to explore and develop their own personalities.

Normally, when children/teenagers go to school, even day school, they're in a world separate from home. They mix with people whom their parents don't know. When I was a teenager, I used to go out on Saturdays to meet up with my friends and my Mum wouldn't know exactly where I was or who I was with.

But Joey knows everyone the triplets know. She knows everything they do, everywhere they go. Anything that happens to them at school, she's likely to hear about, from Hilda or Rosalie or Matey or Mary Lou. Even when they go away, it's to stay with her friends, such as Simone.

The one exception is when Margot is invited to stay with the Hopes - and then Joey only agrees because Madge will be there to keep an eye on her.
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's horribly frightening when it's spelt out like that, isn't it :shock: ? As you say, there is no-one - friend, teacher, matron, neighbour - whom they know who is not mixed up with Joey.

I'm just trying to imagine a teenage world in which your mum is liable to pop into your school at any time; your friends are invited to your home for afternoon tea whether you're there or not; your headmistress and most of your other teachers are close family friends; and your neighbours are either your dad's colleagues, your mum's old schoolfriends or both. No wonder Con kept retreating into a dream world :roll: .
Author:  moiser30 [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:
It's horribly frightening when it's spelt out like that, isn't it :shock: ? As you say, there is no-one - friend, teacher, matron, neighbour - whom they know who is not mixed up with Joey.

I'm just trying to imagine a teenage world in which your mum is liable to pop into your school at any time; your friends are invited to your home for afternoon tea whether you're there or not; your headmistress and most of your other teachers are close family friends; and your neighbours are either your dad's colleagues, your mum's old schoolfriends or both. No wonder Con kept retreating into a dream world :roll: .


I think I would have moved schools, it's okay when they first went like when they were 10 most people would like there mum seeing them anytime but when you get to 13-14 you like to talk to your mates without you mother knowing everything you did.

it happened to me the dinner lady knew my grandma and anything I did at dinner my mum would know before I got home. :x

so I can see why Con would go into a dream world and Magott acted like they did.
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:56 am ]
Post subject: 
I could see Len going one of two ways in university.

In one case, I think she would blossom after finding herself free of much of her previous burden of crushing responsibilities and expectations, and discover a whole new world outside of the Platz and CS. She would make new friends, explore new ideas, and end up ditching the Platz and Reg to go off and teach somewhere else before meeting someone she wants to marry, and having a not-to-big family.

I the other case, I could see her hitting Oxford and falling apart. She's no longer the darling of the mistresses, in a protected, sheltered environment where everyone knows her family and has watched her grow up. She faces new ways of teaching and evaluating her work, and girls (and boys) who are totally outside her experience. She finds herself in the middle of her class standings, rather than the top. She's on the outside socially, instead of being looked up to. She had no-one to be responsible for except Con (who is off having a great time, and doesn't want her sister interfering). Maybe she finishes her degree, maybe she drops out, but she runs back to the Platz at the first opportunity, marries Reg, and settles down to darn his socks, have lots of babies, and help out at the school.
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