The CBB :: View topic - The lot of CS-Land Servants

Bonita and Michelle peeped shyly round the door to utter soft words of congratulation.

Such music had rarely been heard at the Baumersee, and it carried far on the still night air. By twos and threes the people from the farms crept up through the woods, and peeped between the trees at the sight so strange to them.

'Why didn't you tell me this morning, Michelle?' ... Michelle had nothing to say to that, so Janie gave her the money and told her what to get, adding, 'And hurry up, Michelle. It's Bonita's Saturday, and if you're late you'll have to wash up your own tea-things - remember that'.

Gertlieb smiled at them - she never seemed to do anything else but smile - but she went on steadily with her work. There was a great deal to do to-day, for all the mincepies which would be eaten tomorrow had to be made.; and Frau Mensch had suddenly been seized with a fear that there would not be enough sausages, so there were more to be prepared, and Gertleibe must work if she wanted her tow hours in the afternoon, when she could go to the market and buy gifts for the little brothers and sisters at home.

''But if it's going to make too much work for you, I can easily cancel our arrangements'.
... 'It won't hurt Michelle and Bonita to get up at six for once; and I rather like it, once I'm up'.

We had a good nurse for the baby, but she refused to do the doorstep.

f we take as a given that those were the ways of the time, what does it tell us about those times, and about Elinor herself?

The next moment there was a tap at the door, and then Gwladys-from-the-hill-farm came in to announce with her usual sniffle, “A lady to see you, Miss.... Will I tell the shuvver to come to the kitchen, Miss?”
Miss Wilson sighed inwardly. Gwladys never would have suitable manners for a parlour-maid; but they were lucky to have anyone at all these days. A club foot and short sight had prevented her from being in any of the Women’s Services. Their bright, pretty little Guernesiaises maids who had come with them when the school had evacuated from Guernsey had gone long since. Michelle and Rhoda were in the W.A.A.F., and Annette and Olivette had joined the W.R.N.S.; while Dulcie was driving a motor-lorry.

'Anne got a young girl of fifteen and did most of the housework with her help as well as having complete charge of Babs. Beth had to give a hand with the twins and Nancy and she’d never done such a thing before. Then that girl—Lily, her name was—turned out to be the most awful thief and Anne had to shunt her at a moment’s notice. It was months before they got another maid—they either refused to come or else wanted the earth in wages.

They’ve had Dulcie rather more than a year now. You’ve seen her, so you can imagine what she’s like. She’s devoted to them and she never minds work, but she’s as dull as they come. I’d go crackers if I had to manage with just her!’

‘Oh no, you wouldn’t!’ Nan retorted. ‘You’d hustle round and try to get something into her. I know you now!’

Janie suddenly relaxed and grinned. ‘You’ve got something there—if Dulcie was capable of taking anything in. Julian says she’s splendidly allergic to brainwork of any kind. She can barely read or sign her own name and I doubt if she can do much more than add. Anne never dares to send her on an errand where she’ll have to bring home change. Any one could cheat her and she’d never know it.’

but they were lucky to have anyone at all these days. A club foot and short sight had prevented her from being in any of the Women’s Services. Their bright, pretty little Guernesiaises maids who had come with them when the school had evacuated from Guernsey had gone long since. Michelle and Rhoda were in the W.A.A.F., and Annette and Olivette had joined the W.R.N.S.; while Dulcie was driving a motor-lorry.

Interestingly, Angela Thirkell (who can outsnob EBD any day, much as I love them both) has her 'ladies' admitting that life after the war, without a live-in servant & only a 'woman to do the rough', is bliss compared with having someone in the house all the time! :shock:

Of course, Joey had her continental slaves so presumably British ones were much more bolshie!

It makes me think of a David Attenborough natural history programme. Imagine - in a hushed voice he speaks ...

'And here we can see the creatures we have come to film. They ahve taken the bait of music and are approaching warily through the undergrowth and dark woods, listening, listening ... and when the music is gone, they flee, back to safety. What a magnificent sight, never before filmed, of these rare, exotic creatures!

[Which is a long way round of saying that this attitude isn't confined to the past - it seems to raise its ugly head whenever and wherever domestic labour is cheap.

Cosimo's Jackel saidThey would talk casually about 'keeping them on their toes' and replacing them every year or two in case they got 'too comfortable.'

But in all my life I havenever met anyone like this woman, and I think that is why this subject has resounded with me ... although we are supposed to believe that the CS mistresses are lovely employers, when we look at how they talk about their maids, and how the maids are actually treated we see that in reality the situation is somewhat similar to the RL one in which I work.

Marie may not have been quite as devoted to Madge as Anna was to Joey. When she married Andreas she split her loyalty between her employers and her husband. Fair dues to her that her choice suited her employers eminently. But Anna, that faithful factotum, is so dedicated to serving Joey and her family that she turned down a proposal of marriage, possibly in the belief that you cannot serve two masters! Well, with a 'wholesale' employer - Joey, you need a 'wholesale' employee - Anna.

But in terms of 'good' and 'bad' servants, what are their specific characteristics and how are those characertistics used to show us whether they are 'good' or 'bad'?

The good ones never show up their employers by being ungainly or mispronouncing French words, and they are permanently smiling and grateful for their wages and time off, however small these are. They are magically absent unless specifically summoned, and they make it plain that they really work 'for love', rather than for a salary or a roof over their heads. They 'insist' on sleeping in the night nursery after a day of child care and housework, they are psychic enough to rise at dawn to make cakes and lemonade in case someone decides to go on a picnic. They frequently return early from a free afternoon, in order to demonstrate how over-generous their employers' allocation of time off was. They frequent cast looks of 'pure adoration' at said employer. And of course they turn down offers of marriage from superior devotion to the Family - in fact, their own lives are considerably less important than the family's comfort, from Gertlieb's getting time off to buy her family Christmas presents, to Anna's proposal, to Gwladys's club foot.

Also, the right kind of servant, or ex-servant picks up their employer's 'ladylike' ways and passes them on to their daughters, who then move up in the world, because they are not distressingly working class, have 'dainty' table manners and instinctively prefer 'soft' colours.

a good servant would never dream of sending her daughter to the chalet school!

James H Kettlewell's proposal letter always makes me laugh. How many well-to-do Yorkshire industrialists would write that drivel about "a high-up lady like you" :lol:

With Reg, it's made clear that his grandfather was a doctor, so Reg will just be returning his family to their proper place in life. EBD just had to point that Reg had a grandfather for a doctor, rather than just show the Maynards helping someone who was "proper" working-class to attain the greatness of doctorhood

I'm becoming gently riled by this thread

I do think we are in danger of forgetting the period in which EBD grew up and the attitudes that were current then. She is very much of her time and she is writing about servants as they were viewed.

Imagine the amount of washing that 7 kids under the age of 6 would have generated :shock:

I'm becoming gently riled by this thread

I do think we are in danger of forgetting the period in which EBD grew up and the attitudes that were current then. No, it doesn't make it right, but it is hardly fair to blame EBD for being of her time (Slightly off-topic - it makes her ability to distinguish between Germans and Nazis even more remarkable.)

And un-Christian, since you brought that up. The Anglican Church may well have been happily spouting idiocies about social class via particularly pernicious hymns etc, but the things EBD has Joey say to Ros Lilley about Mary and Joseph being a village girl and a carpenter show that she and her creator were perfectly able to distinguish between fallible, varying church teachings and the low social status of the Holy Family in the gospels!

I find nothing wrong with the fact that Jo had servants (incidentally, the Queen, who must have millions of them was known to say 'I have no servants, but a very large staff') I some times think Jo needs more help with the numbers especialy in holiday time. But I do take issue with EBD's take on servants - especially Austrian ones and the blind adoration which could lead to exploitation. Anna, apparently won't have a vacuum cleaner, or possibly washing machine but surely Jo could insist? Surely the faithful servant like Anna would be obedient?

I would have thought that the Maynards needed an industrial strength washing machine like ones in launderettes with all the people in the house - or did they send them to the laundry - in Interlaken?

They believe that the only place she should be is at Les Arbres. They speak as though Nanny has done a bunk to live the high life in London in their absence.
Then, Julian points out that Janie would have sent Nanny off if she had been there. This then comes across as though the point is that Janie, and Janie alone, has the right to give poor nanny 'permission' to visit seriously ill close family.

Absolutely ghastly.

British servants evidently weren't as good :wink:

. We're told that Jo actively disliked Clara, the Bettanys' maid in Taverton - presumably the same maid who had the affrontery who ask for Christmas Day off. The Trevanions' maid is praised, but only to make the point that Eustacia can't do anything right because she upsets a maid whom everyone else likes.

British servants evidently weren't as good :wink:

Also, I'm not sure what her father was supposed to do about Eustacia taking over the domestic reins - it sounds a bit lunatic to hire a housekeeper for a household of two (which is the only alternative I can think of, and which the maids might have been displeased by, too). And Elfie Woodward leaves school to housekeep for her father and brothers when she's only two years older than Eustacia is. I wouldn't have said that a teenager 'running' the household was necessarily an unsuitable thing for the period...?

Nor I, Katy Carr took over the housekeeping before she was 14. From her sick bed too! As a child reading that I couldn't understand why it was necessary to have a housekeeper with two perfectly reliable women already there, but apparently the Victorians did not regard servants as sufficiently intelligent to carry out tasks without delegation.

Post subject: Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants Reply with quote
My parents looked after Gran (Mum's Mum) all their married life.

I read this in Janie Steps In last night. Janie and Julian have gone away fro a couple of days, leaving Nan in charge. During this time Nanny has a call to say that her father is seroiusly ill and asking for her. She gets permission from Nan to leave at once to see him. On their return, this is what Janie and Julian say:

Quote:'What?' It came as a duet and Julian added, 'What on earth is she doing in London when she ought to be here here at Les Arbes?'
'She got a wire last night to say that her father was very ill and asking for her ... '
'But Nanny had no right to go off like that when I wasn't there!'
'Oh, come on, J.,' Julian said ... 'you know you'd have sent her off at once if you'd been there ... '

I have a couple of comments to make about this. First of all is J&J's intial response. They believe that the only place she should be is at Les Arbres. They speak as though Nanny has done a bunk to live the high life in London in their absence.
Then, Julian points out that Janie would have sent Nanny off if she had been there. This then comes across as though the point is that Janie, and Janie alone, has the right to give poor nanny 'permission' to visit seriously ill close family.

Absolutely ghastly.

A teenage daughter taking over the household on the death of her mother would have been completely in keeping with the period.

I agree, Julieanne, that there's something chilling about Janie's feeling that Nanny had 'no right' to go to see her ill father without receiving explicit permission from her mistress - even if, or especially if, she would automatically have granted it. The children have Nan - and presumably other servants to lend a hand? - to look after them for the brief period before their parents return, and after all, Nanny's family is more important than her job. I think that's what my issue is - a servant seems to be seen as owing loyalty to her 'family' as well as - or over and above - her family.

As they crossed the road, Jo said to Debby, "Debby - I may call you that, may I? - will it be possible for Miss Wychote to come over to us sometimes, do you think? We'd love to have her if she could."
"Debby's my name," said that person drily. "Yes, Ma'am, Miss Phoebe can come."

But also, Debby here seems to be to be seeing through, as it were, Jo's delightfully informal yet charming act. That "drily" suggests to me that she is well aware of Joey's presumption of superior status - she talks about "Miss Wychote", after all, and doesn't suggest that Debby call her Jo - and doesn't really buy into i

I think Sealpuppy has it absolutely right and Joey is actually being extremely polite here. Phoebe will have said "Debbie"; it would not have occurred to her to call her anything else and Joey is being careful to double-check it's appropriate for her to use the name.

I was discussing with a 70 year old friend this morning how much the past is "another country", especially with respect to varying views on this Board. I find it fascinating. I am old enough to remember some of the old ways, both as regards class divisions and attitudes to staff and I don't find it nearly as offensive as some on the Board clearly do although I am very happy that we have moved on.

ETA - what I mean by the last point is, wouldn't Joey have addressed Debby entirely differently - presumably as 'Miss X'? - if she'd encountered her as an elderly neighbour in the village? Her social class would be unchanged, but not being in domestic service would change the terms...?

Reg's Aunt is of the same class as Debby yet she is addressed/referred to as Mrs Whatever so it must solely be that Debby is in domestic service.

Lesley wrote:

Reg's Aunt is of the same class as Debby yet she is addressed/referred to as Mrs Whatever so it must solely be that Debby is in domestic service.

I don't think so. The choice of how she is addessed is Debbie's. If she wanted to be Miss Blank, that's how people would address her. If she had been hired as a housekeeper she would definitely be Miss or Mrs Blank, but the difference here is that she is Phoebe's old nurse. That's why Joey is feeling her way, finding out Debbie's preference. As far as I can make out, some former nurses were still addressed as Nurse or Nanny, and visitors would have to check if they too were allowed this form of address.

How, for instance, would Joey's Anna have been addressed when she went into the grocery shop in Howells village?

".Joey was being polite with Debby, but in Exile she rather rudely introduced Matron to Janie Lucy as "Matey" rather than as "Miss Lloyd", and poor Janie then had to address her as "Matey" because she didn't know her name!

Do we know anything at all about Matron's background? Is she of a different class to the other CS stafff?

I don't think there is any evidence that Matey is on the Staff proper, not the domestic staff. Presumably she trained as a nurse and can speak French and German.

I've mentioned this before elsewhere, so please bear with me - something I find particularly interesting where Matey is concerned is that she apperently is educated to a lower level than the Staff proper.
This conclusion is based on a very small detail. The School is playing Subject and Object at one of their Saturday Evening things. The object is Cyrano de Bergerac's handkerchief. There's some discussion as to whether this would be 'vegetable' or not, then Matey asks who CdB is?
The girls rush to tell her.

Re Matey: does this all suggest that she might occupy a similar class limbo as a governess might have done? The kind of position that's definitely not below stairs and is generally occupied by a gentlewoman (perhaps one in a state of genteel poverty), but which doesn't put its occupant quite on a par with her employers?

I've just been reading Alison Uttley's 'The Country Girl'.....

' ... a middle-aged woman would be best, who would take full charge ... I mean, cook, clean, wait, do everything? There's only me, so it wouldn't be a heavy place. ... Not elderly, you understand, just a sensible woman who would be gald to be settled and comfortable, and who wouldn't want to leave me alone too much in the evenings'.

'She'd have to eat with me and sit with me, and I'd hate that. Besides, I'd need another woman to do the work'.

'It seems to me', said Isobel, 'that the thing that matters most is whether you like her personally. I don't think you could live in a house with another woman without a certain degree of friendship. A servant to you would always be more than just a person who did your cooking and cleaning, she'd be a human being in whom you were interested'
... 'I quite like Mrs Auchinvole, but I'm afraid she hardly understands that I don't want so much a sympathetic friend as one who will keep the flat clean, cook and wait a decent meal. There is too much of the we-are-widows-together about her for me'.
... 'Did you manage to broach the subject of uniform?'
... 'Prints in the morning, and a dark dress in the afternoon I insist upon ... she was a housekeeper before she was married, so she may have a cap and apron in her disposition'.
... 'She would give a sort of tone to the flat, go well with the family portrates, and the Georgian silver ... '
... 'I don't really think she can cook much, but an intelligent person ... can do a lot with a cookery book ... '
... ' ... Couldn't you call her a housekeeper? It's a come-down in a way, for a woman who's had a house of her own, to come back to domestic service, and I'd always address her as 'Mrs Auchinvole'.
' ... I shouldn't think of adressing her as anything else! The truth is, I'm an arrant coward with servants ... I can't have had any slave-owners among my ancestors - slaves, more likely.'

'Any weakening on my aprt ... would mean a suggestion that she bought in her work and sat with me of an evening, a thing I simply could not endure'.

thought it an excellent thing to keep her mistress in her room until about ten o'clock, so that she might put the house to rights in a leisurely manner. What was the use, she thought, hurrying to get the dining-room ready for half a grapefriut, and tea and toast for one? ... Mrs A brought it in this morning, as she always did, with everything nicely arranged, the small silver teapot and jug shining, a rack of the crispest toast, marmalade and butter in tiny dishes, and the grapefruit carefully prepared ... she set the tray on the table by the bed ...

' ... she seemed very pleased to come'. 'Oh yes, and she had no uniform complex at all; said she'd never think of wearing anything but a dark dress in the afternoon, and seemed positively to like an apron - said it was a 'freshener.' Of course, she feels that she's quite out of the way of domestic service, but ...'
'Did she like the flat?'
... ' ... she thought highly of the kitchen and her bed-sitting-room. The gas fore especially appealed to her ... I can see she's keen on housework ... she looks a fresh, wholesome creature ... She did say it would be a treat to have a place of her own ... she likes to sew and knit ... I shan't expect perfection, neither must she'.
Isobel said, 'My only fear is that you will spoil her ...'
'I could see her settling down for a nice confidential chat, so I got up and said I was sure she'd like to see her own room and the kitchen'.
'Oh yes, but once you've listened to the complete story of her life, that'll be that. You can keep clear of it afterwards'
'... I don't want to seem uninterested or unkin, and I'll certainly listen with patience ... to one recital, but she must understand that she's a working housekeeper not a companion'.

In the mid-seventies there was a hit sit-com, Butterflies, starring Wendy Craig. She was a dentist's wife, with 18 year old twins who lounged around at home. The husband came home to lunch and they had a daily woman every weekday, from what looked like 9-5. The wife didn't work, or do any voluntary things, nor did she cook. Her bad cooking was legendary. So, poor dear, she went off and found a semi-platonic lover.

All domestic service, but with a very different slant and mostly (give or take the headline cases) a different attitude on both sides, employer and employee.

But domestic service is considered to be informal. The employer pays, but what they have paid for is the life of the employee.

Salary £25,000 gross (tutor responsible for own tax & NI);
Accommodation provided, own bedroom with possible shared bathroom; Term Time: 5 hours per day plus full days at weekends. 7 days per week in term time and a minimum of 35 hours per week; Food not included, unless eating with family; Occasional use of car. Candidate will be required to take a driving test at client's cost to confirm ability prior to any offer of a position; 20 days holiday plus Bank Holidays to be taken at a time as agreed with the Family. This would usually be in the school holidays; £2000 pa. benefit to cover personal travel to the UK. The tutor would be paid this sum upfront and it would be up to them to organise and pay for the tickets. Duties: Pupil attends a school in Thessaloniki and the tutor will be responsible for managing the school year, grades, essays, Greek, English, cultural activities, planning, ensuring suitable environment for studying for the pupil etc.; Tutor will be required to travel with pupil either to or from locations, and to accompany him sometimes on school trips.; The tutor will be responsible for organising sailing lessons and other sporting activities.; The tutor will be responsible for organising the pupils' piano lessons and ensuring a good schedule that leads to examinations and measurable progress.; Tutor must be totally flexible for the family e.g. help with moving house, sorting out child's equipment etc. Must be a part of the team. Requirements:Must excel in Maths; Must be fluent written & spoken English (& conversational Greek very useful as will be living in Greece).Child can be taught in English. French language is also desirable.Grade A at A Level Maths. Maths degree desired.; Required to teach English to A level standard and above.; English / Literature; Energetic; Highly flexible; Non smoker; Will be required to sign a contract & confidentiality contract.

RoseCloak - I stopped breathing as I read on ... not breathless, but complete apnoea ...

julieanne1811 wrote:

RoseCloak - I stopped breathing as I read on ... not breathless, but complete apnoea ...

I do wonder where they're going to find someone fluent in English and French, with conversational Greek, a Maths degree, A level English and the patience and talent to put up with their child as well as being hyper-organised and generally willing to put up with their conditions! Surely someone that able would get a better job?

I didn't know people advertised for Annas any more!

High-profile Saudi Arabian family with two daughters aged 4.5 years & 13 months are looking for a loving, nurturing & mature Nanny to take sole charge of the older child only.
The family's main home is in Khobar, Saudi Arabia (Persian Gulf coast near Bahrain) with second residence in London's Sloane Square area. They also frequently travel locally and internationally - around 2-3 months in the summer (Europe, US etc.) and app. one month in winter.
The Nanny will be responsible for the older child who also attends pre-school; there is a nanny for the younger one who will stay on for at least another year. Working hours will be 6 days for 12 hours a day with time off being negotiated as needed and the nanny will also need to be 'on call' at night time. No other duties than childcare (teaching English, activities etc.) will be involved as this is a fully staffed household and the nanny will have help available to her all day.
Salary offered is £600 per week net, negotiable.
This is an excellent position with a nice and genuine family looking for a dedicated, caring nanny to become part of their family

The younger boy is very gifted and speaks three languages already; it is therefore important that the Governess can challenge him, stimulate his development and spark his learning interest

Quote:

The younger boy is very gifted and speaks three languages already; it is therefore important that the Governess can challenge him, stimulate his development and spark his learning interest

He needs to go to the CS!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri May 28, 2010 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	The lot of CS-Land Servants
These thoughts have come about after reading a post in 'lines unlikely ... ' in Anything Else. Someone suggested that Joey might have said to Anna to have a day off while she and Jack had a family day with the children, as an inprobable line. So I've been thinking about servants and maids (to be used interchangably in this thread) in CS-School Land, and I'm taking as a given that times were different than now. I wonder what we can learn about Elinor and her views of the people she considers of a different (read 'lower'!) class than the main CS characters. And because I'm reading Janie of la Rochelle at the moment, I'll be using evidence from that book to support my ideas, as well as situations from the main-line CS series. So here goes. In Janie, we have the newly-married Janie setting up home with her husband, Julian. They have two maids, Bonita and Michelle, both of whom are young, although we don't know how young. When the honeymooners return home, the maids have been 'hustled' into hiding by Pauline (who is living with them) to allow them to enter their home alone. We're told that Quote: Bonita and Michelle peeped shyly round the door to utter soft words of congratulation. Here we have the first indication that Elinor thought of maids as 'other' - almost not quite human? It chimes well with something written in Camp: Quote: Such music had rarely been heard at the Baumersee, and it carried far on the still night air. By twos and threes the people from the farms crept up through the woods, and peeped between the trees at the sight so strange to them. It makes me think of a David Attenborough natural history programme. Imagine - in a hushed voice he speaks ... 'And here we can see the creatures we have come to film. They have taken the bait of music and are approaching warily through the undergrowth and dark woods, listening, listening ... and when the music is gone, they flee, back to safety. What a magnificent sight, never before filmed, of these rare, exotic creatures! In Janie, too, we have the situation when she is sobbing about the poor health of Julian's Grandmother. There is no attempt to stifle her sobs in case the maids hear her - this too suggests that maids are seen as 'other' - not quite human. In a house where sounds are heard by all we might imagine that one would hide one's grief from those not connected with the situation, but here we have Janie not troubling to hide her grief (and it's never referred to in conversation with Michelle and Bonita, so it can't be because she intends to explain to them) from her maids. It can only be because the thoughts of the maids aren't important and Janie and Julian have no need to explain themselves to the girls. While I understand this on one level - there is no need to explain oneself to one's employees, on another level to act in a way that might give rise to curiosity suggest that those who might be curious actually aren't worth bothering about. I've expressed it very harshly, but I hope you understand what I mean ... Anyway, to return to Janie. Michelle (poor thing!) has to tell Janie that they need potatoes. Quote: 'Why didn't you tell me this morning, Michelle?' ... Michelle had nothing to say to that, so Janie gave her the money and told her what to get, adding, 'And hurry up, Michelle. It's Bonita's Saturday, and if you're late you'll have to wash up your own tea-things - remember that'. Now, first, surely washing up one's own tea-things isn't an arduous task? Then the very explicit instructions given to Michelle by Janie suggest that if she hadn't been given complete instructions something would have been omitted. This gives us the impression that maids are unable to think for themselves or to use their own intelligence or initiative. And considering that the error (that Michelle didn't tell Janie that potatoes were needed) isn't serious and is easily resolved it appears rather unecessary for Janie to ask Michelle why she wasn't told about it earlier - it's redundant. Like all CS-Land maids and servants, Bonita and Michelle are always smiling and 'adore' their mistress. Anna, too, is smiley and adoring of Jo. As is Gertlieb, the Mensches' maid who the Bettanys meet when they spend Christmas with the Mensches. And we're given a brilliant descrition of the life a maid: She brings in a huge jug of hot water for the visitors to wash with, she brings in the hampers containing their clothes, she brings in the food at meal-time, although it's served by the hosts. She must be a strong woman since hampers and water are both heavy - I would have thought that Gottfried, the son, could have carried the heavy loads more easily. We're told that Gertlieb is 'a good girl' by her mistress and she, too, is always smiling. When Joey awakes at eight on Christmas Eve, Gertlieb has been up since five thirty in order to make breakfast for the family who were up at six, and they have all done most of the 'ordinary housework'. It's unsuprising really, that they all have spotless houses gelaming with all that polishing! Then Quote: Gertlieb smiled at them - she never seemed to do anything else but smile - but she went on steadily with her work. There was a great deal to do to-day, for all the mincepies which would be eaten tomorrow had to be made.; and Frau Mensch had suddenly been seized with a fear that there would not be enough sausages, so there were more to be prepared, and Gertleibe must work if she wanted her tow hours in the afternoon, when she could go to the market and buy gifts for the little brothers and sisters at home. Bonita and Michelle, too, have their time managed for them. Julian has to go into work early and he and Janie are discussing early breakfast. Quote: ''But if it's going to make too much work for you, I can easily cancel our arrangements'. ... 'It won't hurt Michelle and Bonita to get up at six for once; and I rather like it, once I'm up'. Julian's concern is only for his wife - Michelle and Bonita are there to do their bidding so are not considered and are even talked about as though they usually sleep in late. Because of their early morning the girls are sent ot bed early in the name of 'I'm considering you and making sure you get the rest you need', but it's more about ' this is what I need and I need to be sure you can deliver' ... And I don't quite understand why the two of the them have to get up so early. They are expected to get up an hour and a half before Julian - that's 3 man-hours early. What do they do in all this time, please? I work for a delightful gentleman who has a tricky wife. Having paid she believes that she then owns the person she has paid. The two full-time carers have to do all the catering for the large family as well as their heavy care load. She regularly tips up the bin all over the kitchen floor to see if the bin itself is clean - which it always is, leaving the mess for the carers to clean up. It's this belief - that having paid someone you then own them, that seems to be prevalent in the CS books. A lot of it is probably because Elinor had little personal contact with people of a different class, and so is only able to write of them in relation to the needs of her characters. We are never given an inkling about what the servants might have thought about things, or that they might have actually had lives of their own. In Janie, Julian's Grandmother tells them about a time when her maid ricked her ankle and was unable to do the doorstep. She says: Quote: We had a good nurse for the baby, but she refused to do the doorstep. !!!!!!!!!! I am so gald that this woman had the strength of character to say 'no'!!! Again - it's a case of 'we've paid you, we own you, this is what we need'. If we take as a given that those were the ways of the time, what does it tell us about those times, and about Elinor herself? In CS-Land all the mistresses are fair and kind and considerate and all the servants adore their mistresses. smile and are very happy to do whatever is required of them, at any time, in any way. What do you think?

Author:	MJKB [ Fri May 28, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
julieanne1811 wrote: f we take as a given that those were the ways of the time, what does it tell us about those times, and about Elinor herself? I've enjoyed reading this, and I think I can safely say I haven't read anything on the board that deals exclusively with the 'help'. In some ways, Agatha Christie's appallingly snobbish attitude towards servants in her books, which includes portraying them as some adenoidal, brainless subspecies, is to be preferred to the pathetically grateful mistress adoring sycophants created by EBD, and Anna is the embodiment of this. Does anyone remember if Anna ever goes on holidays (apart from accompanying the clan to Tyrol), or takes a day off. Is she ever even sick? She doesn't seem to have or even to want any 'me' time, but is always at the complete disposal of her 'adored' mistress. Even at night, she is expected to sleep in with or next door to the younger children, and lest she should get any ideas above her station, she is shunted into a tiny crawl space which is accessed by a ladder no less, in Die Blumen! All this servitude for the bliss of working for such a wonderful family. Anna should be to Joey what Susan is to Anne in AOI, a faithful worker and companion, who feels she is a vital part of the family. Susan, too, is a bit too good to be true, and a bit too adoring of her surrigate family, but at least Anne treats her like an equal and is a mutual friend of Susan's friends. They gossip together with Miss Cornelia and, most significantly, eats with the family.

Author:	Llywela [ Fri May 28, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
We do occasionally hear of either Anna or Rosli getting a day off - usually because Joey then has to get someone else to babysit, because heaven forfend she should have to care for her own children for a day with only one servant to help. It's the family holidays to Tirol that get me - this is Anna's home town, her whole family are there, and since she never gets more than a day off at a time (usually more like an afternoon), she never gets to see them. Ever. She grew up in this town, it must hold so many memories for her. Yet during the books recounting holidays there - usually entire summers - she is lucky to be given so much as a day to go visiting her family, and Joey usually manages to make even that much sound remarkably benevolent. Even when Jack and Joey take their family out exploring for the day to see the sights - sights Anna must know and love as well - she doesn't get to go with them, or to have the day off to spend revisiting old haunts herself, because she has to stay and look after the babies. She has the most thankless job in the world! Poor Anna.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri May 28, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I always think it's instructive to look at how the 'ideal' servants differ from the 'un-ideal', for EBD. If the ideals are Anna, Gertlieb and Janie Lucey's Michelle and Bonita, then we get the un-ideal in Lavender: Quote: The next moment there was a tap at the door, and then Gwladys-from-the-hill-farm came in to announce with her usual sniffle, “A lady to see you, Miss.... Will I tell the shuvver to come to the kitchen, Miss?” Miss Wilson sighed inwardly. Gwladys never would have suitable manners for a parlour-maid; but they were lucky to have anyone at all these days. A club foot and short sight had prevented her from being in any of the Women’s Services. Their bright, pretty little Guernesiaises maids who had come with them when the school had evacuated from Guernsey had gone long since. Michelle and Rhoda were in the W.A.A.F., and Annette and Olivette had joined the W.R.N.S.; while Dulcie was driving a motor-lorry. So the CS is slumming with Gwladys from the hill farm, and her improper pronunciation of French words and the disabilities that prevented her from going into the services like the other maids. One wants to point out that Gwladys probably wasn't thrilled with having to be a servant either! And the bit about the Chesters' servant situation in Janie Steps in always makes my blood boil: Quote: 'Anne got a young girl of fifteen and did most of the housework with her help as well as having complete charge of Babs. Beth had to give a hand with the twins and Nancy and she’d never done such a thing before. Then that girl—Lily, her name was—turned out to be the most awful thief and Anne had to shunt her at a moment’s notice. It was months before they got another maid—they either refused to come or else wanted the earth in wages. They’ve had Dulcie rather more than a year now. You’ve seen her, so you can imagine what she’s like. She’s devoted to them and she never minds work, but she’s as dull as they come. I’d go crackers if I had to manage with just her!’ ‘Oh no, you wouldn’t!’ Nan retorted. ‘You’d hustle round and try to get something into her. I know you now!’ Janie suddenly relaxed and grinned. ‘You’ve got something there—if Dulcie was capable of taking anything in. Julian says she’s splendidly allergic to brainwork of any kind. She can barely read or sign her own name and I doubt if she can do much more than add. Anne never dares to send her on an errand where she’ll have to bring home change. Any one could cheat her and she’d never know it.’ There seems to be considerably more sympathy for the Chesters being down on their luck than for the plight of their unfortunate maid of all work, who is stuck in a poorly-paid, dead end, tiring job because of her illiteracy - which may of course only be a lack of educational opportunities due to poverty. The thing Julian says about her being 'splendidly allergic to brainwork' always makes me want to throw something at his smug upper-class head. I think EBD clearly likes pretty, bright, cheery servants who 'adore' their employers - interesting how she often uses that word for people who are further down the social scale, like Mademoiselle LePattre, who 'adores' the Bettany girls when she's still a governess, Joey's Anna and various Tiernsee locals who likewise 'adore' Joey. Interesting that two of the feistier servants - Marie Pfeiffen in the early days of the CS, and Karen - are school servants, rather than employed by an individual family. So it's OK for Karen to scold Joey in Goes to the Oberland for letting the window open, but Anna could never take that tone with her! The other thing that drives me mad about her portrayal of servants is that either they are stolid robots like Anna-the-faithful-handmaid, or inclined to a hysteria EBD seems to associate with a certain kind of servant - Rosa (when Sybil is kidnapped) and Rosli (when Win disappears) react in exactly the same hysterical way, and have to be 'brought to their senses' by their employers. Who presumably keep a cool head because of their well-bred sang-froid.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: but they were lucky to have anyone at all these days. A club foot and short sight had prevented her from being in any of the Women’s Services. Their bright, pretty little Guernesiaises maids who had come with them when the school had evacuated from Guernsey had gone long since. Michelle and Rhoda were in the W.A.A.F., and Annette and Olivette had joined the W.R.N.S.; while Dulcie was driving a motor-lorry. Well, I'm sure you'll agree that it wasn't very nice of Mr.Hitler to march into Poland, thereby forcing Britain to declare war on Germany and by so doing, depriving those nice people, the Chesters and the Luceys, of decent help. As for the short sighted, club footed Gwladys -from-the-hill-farm, shame on her for being born so disabled and her parents for providing such poor genes!

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

The lot of CS-Land Servants http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7931

Author:	Mel [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
In School At Madge sighs as she compares Gertlieb with her smiling acceptance of two hours off for Christmas with their own, no doubt pert, maid at home, who wanted a whole day if not more. The trouble is, we are supposed to be on the side of the employers and 'tut' but even reading this as a child I was on the side of the English maid who wanted her time off. In Switzerland the maids at the school are 'ruled by Karen' and sleep in dormitories (pretty cubicles?) and are equally beaming/hysterical types. Would that be likely in 1950s Switzerland which had such a high standard of living?

Author:	Emma A [ Fri May 28, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I'd say in the early days of the CS, EBD's attitude was fairly universal, judging by the fiction of the period, anyway! Some of Georgette Heyer's 1930s-set detective novels do have scenes told from the servants' point of view, and there's a fair bit of grumbling behind the scenes in 'Behold, Here's Poison', for example. Though there is outrage in that family when their parlourmaid is interviewed by a reporter and features in a newspaper after the master of the house is murdered, and she is fired forthwith for "impertinence". Dornford Yates's novels (1920s to 1950s) seem to class English servants as devoted and intelligent - and often resourceful - (Carson, Bell, Therese, et al.), and the lower orders in general (unless they've been 'got at' by Communists) as respectful to their social superiors. His post-war novels are rather more cynical in tone, however. And although Lord Peter Wimsey often treats Bunter as a friend or colleague, his valet is very definitely not of the same social order, and neither of them would consider each other equals - it's very much a major-batman sort of relationship, I think. AFAIK, in upper-class households in particular, servants were non-people. Servants didn't knock at doors, for example, since they couldn't be expected to either disturb or be disturbed by the occupant, and conversations would take place as though servants were not present and able to listen. The film 'Gosford Park' for example, shows very well how the upper classes regarded their servants - and also what the servants thought of their masters, too. Patricia Wentworth's books rarely include the servants-eye view, but there are quite a few old family retainers who speak their minds and won't be brow-beaten by their 'family', in fact quite frequently seeming to rule the roost! This is post-war, though, so probably reflects the greater difficulty keeping servants after the war than EBD expresses. By the later CS books, I think EBD was getting ludicrously idealistic about the servant situation (as Alison H's memorable drabbles indicate!), and the attitude of her adoring servants is highly unlikely. Anna starts as a maid, doesn't she, but then seems to morph into cook, laundress, cleaner, nursemaid/nanny and dog-walker when more and more children arrive in the Maynard home.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I think EBD's perfect servants are her own fantasy maids. My mother-in-law (b1908) said her parents had a cook-general (which sounds excitingly military but wasn't!) and a nursery maid, together with a man to do the rough gardening once a week. Her father was middle-management so they were probably equal in 'rank' to EBD's family. So a few devoted slaves would have been heaven for EBD's mother, I should think. Interestingly, Angela Thirkell (who can outsnob EBD any day, much as I love them both) has her 'ladies' admitting that life after the war, without a live-in servant & only a 'woman to do the rough', is bliss compared with having someone in the house all the time! Of course, Joey had her continental slaves so presumably British ones were much more bolshie!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
sealpuppy wrote: Interestingly, Angela Thirkell (who can outsnob EBD any day, much as I love them both) has her 'ladies' admitting that life after the war, without a live-in servant & only a 'woman to do the rough', is bliss compared with having someone in the house all the time! Of course, Joey had her continental slaves so presumably British ones were much more bolshie! I used to live in the Middle East, where most western expats had a live-in maid to whom they paid an absolute pittance. I have to say I was absolutely appalled at the way ordinary working-class/lower-middle/ middle-middle class British people, who seemed perfectly benign in other ways, behaved towards Flipina and Sri Lankan women who were a long way from home, looking after other people's children, while their own were a long way away. Get any bunch of women together in a room and they'd start sharing stories of incompetence/greed/dishonesty/ingratitude/sexual misconduct (provocative glances at 'sir') etc. The worst of it was that these people - many of whom, I'm sure, would have been the descendants of domestic servants in the UK - 'learned' how to deal with their domestic help this way from other expats, and prided themselves on no longer being 'taken for a ride', and 'wising up'. They would talk casually about 'keeping them on their toes' and replacing them every year or two in case they got 'too comfortable.' It was one of the most depressing things I've ever watched in action. Which is a long way round of saying that this attitude isn't confined to the past - it seems to raise its ugly head whenever and wherever domestic labour is cheap.

Author:	RroseSelavy [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
julieanne1811 wrote: It makes me think of a David Attenborough natural history programme. Imagine - in a hushed voice he speaks ... 'And here we can see the creatures we have come to film. They ahve taken the bait of music and are approaching warily through the undergrowth and dark woods, listening, listening ... and when the music is gone, they flee, back to safety. What a magnificent sight, never before filmed, of these rare, exotic creatures! Thanks for this slice of genius, it made me laugh out loud I think this really does sum up EBD's view of superstitious & simple peasantry. I wonder what Ros Lilley and Joan Baker, as the only two working-class girls to attend the CS, made of having servants around, and of the way they were treated? As an aside, it actually feels slightly odd to use the word 'servant' - the connotations just jar too much for me.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: [Which is a long way round of saying that this attitude isn't confined to the past - it seems to raise its ugly head whenever and wherever domestic labour is cheap. Yes, I came across this too, in the late 70s, when we spent a year in Egypt. We had a maid in the mornings from 8.00-2.00 and I nearly gave her a heart attack when, on learning that she had a small baby, I said blithely: 'bring her along with you, she can play with my own baby!' She had never heard of an employer making such an offer. (Though in my experience then, it wasn't the Brits who were so bad, it was the US oil-wives who also refused even to shop locally, buying everything from the 'Commissary'.)(Apologies if there's anyone on here of that ilk!)

Author:	Abi [ Fri May 28, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Even now, some friends of mine who visit Zimbabwe regularly say that the (white) people they were visiting were totally shocked and almost appalled when my friends picked up their plates and took them through to the kitchen for the maid - the notion of actually helping out or doing anything for themselves just hadn't occurred.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri May 28, 2010 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Thanks Emma . Marie and Karen are great . However, even they're shown as being obsessively devoted to their employers: Karen brings Hilda's favourite biscuits to her for elevenses every day, and Marie is supposedly overjoyed at the wondrous gift of a CS group photo for a wedding present because it's a copy of one that Madge has got! I can just about buy the devotion in the early years because there was a lot of poverty in the area and steady jobs can't have been that easy to come by, and we're told that Marie considers herself lucky to be employed by Madge because she gets treated much better than friends who are in service elsewhere do (which ties in with Madge's thoughts about how little time Gertlieb is given off by the Mensches), but not in the later books. The descriptions of Anna as a "faithful handmaiden" really grate on me, though, and so does the way that Gaudenz is sometimes shown as some sort of hulking village idiot. & the descriptions of Janie's maids drive me mad: they're patronising described as "little girls who were to help Janie with the work" - that makes them sound about 6, and it makes it sound as if the one actually doing most of the housework will be Janie! It could just be because the Russells had a more formal household and also employed Rosa (although she was a nanny rather than someone doing housework), but Marie is always described as the Russells' housekeeper, whereas Anna, even in the late Swiss books when she would have been in her late '30s, is described as the Maynards' maid. I'd like to know why EBD did that. MJKB, in one of the Swiss books we're told that Anna is going home to Tyrol for a few days. &, in a bit of Trials (or possibly Theodora) which was cut out of the pb, we're told that she's going to visit some friends for the afternoon but wants to take Felix, Felicity and Cecil with her .

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri May 28, 2010 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I'm going off-piste again slightly - some of these posts have made me think of the wife of the gentleman I work for. Quote: Cosimo's Jackel saidThey would talk casually about 'keeping them on their toes' and replacing them every year or two in case they got 'too comfortable.' This is what this lady (and she is no lady!) does. In all the years I have worked there she has gone through British agencies, then Australian, then New Zealand, South African, and now she's 'in' Poland. She gets herself such a bad name that the agencies cotton on and tell each other and she's unable to find more carers. These poor girls, many very young (Gappers) and all far from family support can wake up one day and simply be told to leave the house by that evening. That's usually when she's found someone she prefers and she wants to get them in quickly. She has the 'skill' of being able to reduce young people to tears, leaving them believing that it is they who are in the wrong. I am very fortunate in not having to live there (I only go in twice a week for 3 hours), and I give all the support I can to the carers. But in all my life I havenever met anyone like this woman, and I think that is why this subject has resounded with me ... although we are supposed to believe that the CS mistresses are lovely employers, when we look at how they talk about their maids, and how the maids are actually treated we see that in reality the situation is somewhat similar to the RL one in which I work.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri May 28, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
julieanne1811 wrote: But in all my life I havenever met anyone like this woman, and I think that is why this subject has resounded with me ... although we are supposed to believe that the CS mistresses are lovely employers, when we look at how they talk about their maids, and how the maids are actually treated we see that in reality the situation is somewhat similar to the RL one in which I work. It's really depressing to think that those attitudes have survived into the 21st century. I have a cleaner, Dahli, and I love her. Dhe comes to me for 3 or 4 hours once a week. I have been known to cry on the odd occasion that she couldn't make it. I honestly don't know what I would do without her. She has been with me since 2001 when I went back to uni to do a post grad. It took two years to complete and my husband figured that when I had finished, I'd have no further need for Dahli. I put it to him gently that if it was a case of Dahli or him, it would be no contest. Dahli is from Georgia, and it's obvious that her life was incredibly hard. She has about 200 words of English but we have our own way of communicating. I asked her about how she likes living in Ireland, and she told me that she is really happy here, and that life is better for her. Now, since she earns her living working as a house and office cleaner, and lives in a studio apartment in a fairly dodgy part of Dublin, I shudder to think of what her life was like in Georgia. I pay her a significant percentage of my net hourly rate, but she has told me that she earns less than half of what I pay her per hour in her other jobs. i think that says alot about how the world values traditional 'woman's work'.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri May 28, 2010 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
It would've been nice to see that sort of close relationship between either Madge and Marie or Joey and Anna. By the end of the series, Marie had been working for Madge for over 25 years - and Andreas had been working for Jem since they were both single - and they'd seen each other's children grow up, been through all the traumas of wartime together, and so on. Joey and Anna went through a lot together too, but we never even see them discussing the children, and we don't even see Anna's reaction when the telegram about Jack arrives during Highland Twins. There's a nice bit in Head Girl - cut by Armada - in which Jem says that he's glad that Marie and Andreas have got together, though. Admittedly he says that it's worked out well because it means Marie won't be leaving when she gets married, but he also says that Andreas will make her a good husband, which in a patronising way is quite sweet .

Author:	MJKB [ Sat May 29, 2010 7:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Marie may not have been quite as devoted to Madge as Anna was to Joey. When she married Andreas she split her loyalty between her employers and her husband. Fair dues to her that her choice suited her employers eminently. But Anna, that faithful factotum, is so dedicated to serving Joey and her family that she turned down a proposal of marriage, possibly in the belief that you cannot serve two masters! Well, with a 'wholesale' employer - Joey, you need a 'wholesale' employee - Anna.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sat May 29, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
MJKB wrote: Marie may not have been quite as devoted to Madge as Anna was to Joey. When she married Andreas she split her loyalty between her employers and her husband. Fair dues to her that her choice suited her employers eminently. But Anna, that faithful factotum, is so dedicated to serving Joey and her family that she turned down a proposal of marriage, possibly in the belief that you cannot serve two masters! Well, with a 'wholesale' employer - Joey, you need a 'wholesale' employee - Anna. Yes - this is interesting, isn't it? What would have happened if Anna had married? Do we know what her prospective husband did? I'm assuming he wasn't another Andreas. In which case, would Joey have been happy for him to 'live in' in order to allow Anna to continue to do her job with the Maynards? And somebody wrote (sorry - can't find it. Need coffee) that it's interesting to compare the 'good' servants with the 'bad', and their comparative characteristics. It made me think of Mr Flowers maid who chaperoned the girls when there was the hotel fire. She acted according to her 'class' (as set out by EBD) by screaming hysterically when they were attempting to escape from the furnace. The 'upper class' girls, however, proved their station in life by being calm under duress ... actually, that might make an interesting thread. Watch this space! But in terms of 'good' and 'bad' servants, what are their specific characteristics and how are those characertistics used to show us whether they are 'good' or 'bad'?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat May 29, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
julieanne1811 wrote: But in terms of 'good' and 'bad' servants, what are their specific characteristics and how are those characertistics used to show us whether they are 'good' or 'bad'? The good ones never show up their employers by being ungainly or mispronouncing French words, and they are permanently smiling and grateful for their wages and time off, however small these are. They are magically absent unless specifically summoned, and they make it plain that they really work 'for love', rather than for a salary or a roof over their heads. They 'insist' on sleeping in the night nursery after a day of child care and housework, they are psychic enough to rise at dawn to make cakes and lemonade in case someone decides to go on a picnic. They frequently return early from a free afternoon, in order to demonstrate how over-generous their employers' allocation of time off was. They frequent cast looks of 'pure adoration' at said employer. And of course they turn down offers of marriage from superior devotion to the Family - in fact, their own lives are considerably less important than the family's comfort, from Gertlieb's getting time off to buy her family Christmas presents, to Anna's proposal, to Gwladys's club foot. Also, the right kind of servant, or ex-servant picks up their employer's 'ladylike' ways and passes them on to their daughters, who then move up in the world, because they are not distressingly working class, have 'dainty' table manners and instinctively prefer 'soft' colours.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat May 29, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants

Author:	MJKB [ Sat May 29, 2010 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: The good ones never show up their employers by being ungainly or mispronouncing French words, and they are permanently smiling and grateful for their wages and time off, however small these are. They are magically absent unless specifically summoned, and they make it plain that they really work 'for love', rather than for a salary or a roof over their heads. They 'insist' on sleeping in the night nursery after a day of child care and housework, they are psychic enough to rise at dawn to make cakes and lemonade in case someone decides to go on a picnic. They frequently return early from a free afternoon, in order to demonstrate how over-generous their employers' allocation of time off was. They frequent cast looks of 'pure adoration' at said employer. And of course they turn down offers of marriage from superior devotion to the Family - in fact, their own lives are considerably less important than the family's comfort, from Gertlieb's getting time off to buy her family Christmas presents, to Anna's proposal, to Gwladys's club foot. Also, the right kind of servant, or ex-servant picks up their employer's 'ladylike' ways and passes them on to their daughters, who then move up in the world, because they are not distressingly working class, have 'dainty' table manners and instinctively prefer 'soft' colours. Brilliant!! I can't think of one more trait to add to the above.

Author:	tiffinata [ Sun May 30, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
a good servant would never dream of sending her daughter to the chalet school!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun May 30, 2010 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Gosh - yes, you're right tiffinata. I wonder if any of them thought about doing that? What would have happened if they did manage to do it?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun May 30, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
tiffinata wrote: a good servant would never dream of sending her daughter to the chalet school! But it's OK if you're dead, having passed on your dainty ways, and the CS adopts your daughter, albeit initially to send her to the village school in a language she doesn't speak, because that's what you do with servant-class children. It's also OK if your daughter is chosen as the deserving recipient of a CS scholarship, as long as you don't get swollen-headed and serve Mrs Gay home-made cake at your kitchen table in your homely ex-servant way - that way, it's obvious you're not scheming your way up the social ladder...

Author:	Alison H [ Sun May 30, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
With Reg, it's made clear that his grandfather was a doctor, so Reg will just be returning his family to their proper place in life. EBD just had to point that Reg had a grandfather for a doctor, rather than just show the Maynards helping someone who was "proper" working-class to attain the greatness of doctorhood . James H Kettlewell's proposal letter always makes me laugh. How many well-to-do Yorkshire industrialists would write that drivel about "a high-up lady like you" ? (Sorry for being sarcastic, but ...)

Author:	MJKB [ Sun May 30, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Alison H wrote: James H Kettlewell's proposal letter always makes me laugh. How many well-to-do Yorkshire industrialists would write that drivel about "a high-up lady like you" ? Ah, but surely you realise that all Yorkshire industrialists at the time would regard the Bettany girls as 'high up ladies', at least in EBD's view. Alison H wrote: With Reg, it's made clear that his grandfather was a doctor, so Reg will just be returning his family to their proper place in life. EBD just had to point that Reg had a grandfather for a doctor, rather than just show the Maynards helping someone who was "proper" working-class to attain the greatness of doctorhood Apparently you can inherit doctoring because there is some kind of doctoring genes.

Author:	RubyGates [ Sun May 30, 2010 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Ah yes but James H Kettlewell is obviously a very well brought up man who knows his place in life! Seriously though I was reading a recently published chick lit book where the plot revolves around two families who end up renting the same holiday villa for a week. They all decide to stay and make the best of things and one of the families has their Australian gap-year student/au-pair with them. Including the student there are eight people all together at the villa but her employer says to her "so you'll be cooking for seven instead of four" and I thought "well eight surely, or are they expecting this poor student not to be eating anything all week?".

Author:	Alison H [ Sun May 30, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I wonder how much of the snobbery in the books was to do with EBD's own background: for someone who wasn't from the top end of the social spectrum herself, she always seems very worried about it all! It's often the case that the worst snobs aren't so much people who are genuinely "posh" as people who feel that they've got something to prove. EBD's background was lower middle class, and maybe when she and her mother went up in the world when her mother remarried they felt that they had something to prove to their new friends and relations, and also they'd always've been worried about keeping up appearances over her (EBD)'s father doing a bunk.

Author:	cestina [ Sun May 30, 2010 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I'm becoming gently riled by this thread I do think we are in danger of forgetting the period in which EBD grew up and the attitudes that were current then. She is very much of her time and she is writing about servants as they were viewed. Even lower middle-class families would have had a maid-of-all-work, possibly even living in, and not only children were meant to be seen but not heard when she was growing up. Servants certainly came into that category. And in post Austro-Hungarian Empire Austria those attitudes were even more engrained. It was often girls from poor households in Bohemia that went into service in Vienna and other big Austrian cities; they were regarded as a chattel of the household. No, it doesn't make it right, but it is hardly fair to blame EBD for being of her time (Slightly off-topic - it makes her ability to distinguish between Germans and Nazis even more remarkable.) In my view the CS servants did rather better than most..... And to pull something in from the thread about the Upper and Lower Classes - if the church was teaching that everyone has their pre-ordained place and has to stick to it, I don't think one can blame the laity for following its teachings. That's not the only hymn containing similar sentiments.......

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sun May 30, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
cestina wrote: I'm becoming gently riled by this thread I do think we are in danger of forgetting the period in which EBD grew up and the attitudes that were current then. She is very much of her time and she is writing about servants as they were viewed. Yes - you're right cestina. I had no idea to imply that Elinor was 'wrong' at all. She was, as are we all, products of the times in which we live, and therefore we accept without question many things at which following societies might be aghast. Given that, I just found it interesting (I really must find a synonym for that word ... ) to consider the lot of servants and maids, especially as nowadays most people don't employ others to do that kind of work for them.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun May 30, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
It would have been very difficult to manage a house the size of Die Rosen without servants, in the days before hoovers, washing machines, etc. Imagine the amount of washing that 7 kids under the age of 6 would have generated .

Author:	cestina [ Sun May 30, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
Alison H wrote: Imagine the amount of washing that 7 kids under the age of 6 would have generated . Good heavens yes! It was fairly common practice to employ someone extra on washing day and I can imagine that the locals would have been happy to take up that sort of offer.....

Author:	Mel [ Sun May 30, 2010 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
I find nothing wrong with the fact that Jo had servants (incidentally, the Queen, who must have millions of them was known to say 'I have no servants, but a very large staff') I some times think Jo needs more help with the numbers especialy in holiday time. But I do take issue with EBD's take on servants - especially Austrian ones and the blind adoration which could lead to exploitation. Anna, apparently won't have a vacuum cleaner, or possibly washing machine but surely Jo could insist? Surely the faithful servant like Anna would be obedient?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun May 30, 2010 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The lot of CS-Land Servants
cestina wrote: I'm becoming gently riled by this thread I do think we are in danger of forgetting the period in which EBD grew up and the attitudes that were current then. No, it doesn't make it right, but it is hardly fair to blame EBD for being of her time (Slightly off-topic - it makes her ability to distinguish between Germans and Nazis even more remarkable.) You are quite right to point out that her ability to distinguish between Germans and Nazis is worthy of note, particularly so given that it's not particularly common in children's books of the period. But I fail to see why it's less interesting or relevant to point out the instances where EBD is, quite frankly, a crashing snob in a way that's very much of her time. And un-Christian, since you brought that up. The Anglican Church may well have been happily spouting idiocies about social class via particularly pernicious hymns etc, but the things EBD has Joey say to Ros Lilley about Mary and Joseph being a village girl and a carpenter show that she and her creator were perfectly able to distinguish between fallible, varying church teachings and the low social status of the Holy Family in the gospels! I think everyone realises EBD was of her time in many ways, and no one is singling her out for particular blame. It's just interesting to tease out her attitude to servants from the series because it's a topic where her good intentions (Anna being treated 'like the family' apart from the fact she does all the work, the CS girls being trained to speak politely to Marie Pfeiffen etc) are also horrifically patronising and blinkered, and suggest, as someone else said up the thread, a distinct class anxiety of her own. I also also don't think anyone is taking issue with the fact that major CS characters had multiple servants - it's certainly historically accurate for the pre-war books, though largely anachronistic by the end of the series - just the way EBD tends to construct them as robotic 'faithful handmaidens' who would lay down their lives for their mistresses etc. Or to construct them as hysterical/illiterate/club-footed negative stereotypes.