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Laundry and regular changing.
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Author:  MJKB [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Laundry and regular changing.

I wonder how often the girls changed their blouses and underwear etc. They bathed very frequently but they may not have been allowed to use deodorant. I read somewhere that such things were highly suspect in the fifties and that girls had to sew pads for underarm sweat into their clothes. Things like perfume were also frowned upon, I wonder why?

Author:  Mel [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

In camp the Middles need to do their own laundry because they are allowed only two frocks per week. Possibly blouses would be the same. As for underwear, I don't think changing every day would be the norm until the 1960s? Perfume would be bracketed with bubble bath as a bit flighty or even worse 'common.' A little lavender water on a handkerchief might be permissible (for potential headaches) or ice cologne stick on a ramble.

Author:  Jennie [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I do wonder about the perfume, as Jo was given a small phial of perfume for Christmas when they spent their first Christmas in Tyrol with the Mensches.

And when I was a teenager, it was quite common to give perfume to family and friends for Christmas.

Oh the joys of wondering whether my uncle would be giving me 'Evening In Paris' or 'Californian Poppy'!

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Ah, Evening in Paris with the little blue bottle, much more sophisticated than Californian Poppy lol.

Author:  Jennie [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Vile, weren't they?

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Disgusting but that was all I knew

Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

In "Through the Narrow Gate" by Karen Armstrong (memoir by a woman who entered a convent at 18), she describes who they wore bloomers I think ,and only got to change them twice a week I think. She was studying in London and had to travel on the tube, and apparently her legs got covered in soot. This was in the 1960s I think.

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

EBD possibly classified perfume under the same "not quite appropriate" heading as make-up - although I'd forgotten that Joey gets some as a present.

Vaguely on the same sort of topic, doesn't Ruey try a home perm (or was it dye?) at one point - it goes wrong and she says that she kept washing her hair and it got too soft. Presumably had Joan Baker tried a home perm it would have been considered "fast", but evidently it was OK for Ruey :roll: !

Author:  Miriam [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

It was OK because it failed, and Jo probably told her that she got what she deserved, having to go round looking a mess until her hair recovered. If it had succeeded, I'm sure she would have been told off alot more seriously.

I thinks it's significant that Margot - the non conformist triplet was the one who helped her. Len would probably have been shocked at the idea.

Perming isn't entirely disaproved off. Pamela (in Oberland) has had her hair permed, and the general reaction is muted approval. Mary-Lou joked about not having to haver her hair permed, but no one considered it an unreasonable suggestion. It's only when one is a young schoolgirl that these things are Not Done.

Author:  Jennie [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Perhaps Pamela, being older, looked after her hair/perm properly, whereas Joan had had her hair permed, then didn't set it, but left her hair looking all bushy and frizzy.

And some people have hair that looks good when permed, and some people don't.

Author:  MJKB [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I wonder if the home perm of CS days is the same horrendous style that so many 'little old ladies' sport today as they would have been school girls in the fifties. The Flower Power generation are coming up to their sixties now, some are already there, and they refuse to allow age to make frumps of them. I think that's terrific as I'm just behind them in age.
When I was growing up in the sixties and seventies very few girls I knew would tamper with their hair. We would have thought dying ones hair to be pretty brassy. (Perms by that stage had gone out to be replaced by long straight hair). Well do I remember the shock in our house when we got news that my eldest sister, who was visiting the states that summer, had dyed her hair blonde. It was definetly a case of the street next, and that was in 1970.

Author:  Meg14 [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Just to go back to the idea of bubble bath being flighty. There is a scene in Highland Twins when Shiena arrives at Plas Gwyn and has a bath to get over the horrors of the journey. Joey offers her either lavender or verbena (I think) bath salts and then realises that Shiena has never used them and she seems to consider this as an example of Shiena's very old fashioned upbringing. I can see that bubble baths could have been considered much more decadent than bath salts and the justification for using the bath salts is that it makes your skin smoother but may be it shows that perfumes and scented baths were considered acceptable by EBD.

Author:  Cat C [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

The bubble bath thing might have changed over the course of the series - I don't think there was any hint that it was odd that Jack had managed to 'snaffle' a sachet of bubble bath to play her trick in Leader - I mean, it wasn't thought odd that her mother would have such a thing.

Author:  jennifer [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Would bubble bath and bath salts be seen as more of an adult thing than a schoolgirl thing (and the same with perms).

The approved perm in Oberland is on an older girl, who is finished her normal schooling, while the bath salts and bubble bath have been bought by and for adult women, not the school girls.

The one that gets me is the makeup - it's clear that makeup is fast and cheap on people like Joan, but Peggy, in Oberland, tells one of the other girls that she's rude to *not* wear makeup, forcing other people to look at her shiny nose and pale lips!

Author:  Mel [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

But it was considered odd that Peggy Burnett would have a bubble bath and wasn't it an unused present belonging to Mrs Lambert? Perhaps EBD saw bubble bath as suitable for film stars eg film stills showing girl in bath with glass of champagne - very Doris Day/ Cary Grant type romantic comedies.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

It was a kind of puritanical idea at one time - bathing was supposed to be for getting clean, not for lingering in nice scented hot water which was seen as being too "sensual" :lol: .

Author:  Miriam [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Quote:
The one that gets me is the makeup - it's clear that makeup is fast and cheap on people like Joan, but Peggy, in Oberland, tells one of the other girls that she's rude to *not* wear makeup, forcing other people to look at her shiny nose and pale lips!


Part of that was the style. Peggy's mother had taught her to use it properly, to cover any defects (eg a shiny skin and nose) and to delicately enhance her good features, and it was this philosophy that she passed on to Edna.

Joan wore a thick layer, that 'could be scraped off with a knife', and probably didn't do much for her looks. Apart from that, it was the school rulr that make-up was not allowed for girls under sixteen.

Author:  Meg14 [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Quote:
It was a kind of puritanical idea at one time - bathing was supposed to be for getting clean, not for lingering in nice scented hot water which was seen as being too "sensual"


Which fits in terms of those awful sounding cold or chill-off baths and the idea that having a chill off bath was only for wimps. I suppose schoolkids were expected to lead a more puritanical life. This particulalry works if I think of what I have read about places like Gordounston in 1950s (ie freezing dormitories and a harsh outdoor lifestyle!)

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

It would appear that EBD regarded deodorant, bath salts, bubble bath etc as far too frivolous.
What I find amazing is how Len has to coax her mother's permission to wear her hair in a pony tail. Why? What could she or anyone else have against pony tails? Was it that they suggest a rude part of a horse's anatomy?

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I'd agree with the general idea that the CS, like many girls' schools, would have encouraged cleanliness, but not vanity, and there would have been a sense that cold baths, lots of sleep, exercise fresh air and plain food (or what EBD calls plain food, which still sounds pretty sweet-toothed to me!) were the way to bring up strong, sensible members of society, not cosseted young ladies. I think in the early days of the school there would still have been a push against lingering late Victorian ideas of (middle/upper-class) young girls as weak, cosseted, and incapable of physical exertion after puberty.

I agree with whoever said that lingering in a hot bath would have been considered rather sensual, and not suitable for school girls. Also, more practically, can you imagine how long it would have taken in the mornings for the entire school to have baths, if it were possible/pleasurable to linger in the water?

Actually, I've never really had a sense of how many different 'sittings' in each bathroom there were every morning by the Swiss days, when the school was large? Three? Four? More?

Author:  Cat C [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Quote:
Why? What could she or anyone else have against pony tails? Was it that they suggest a rude part of a horse's anatomy?


I thought the idea was that it would get tangled as a result of not being neatly plaited.

Quote:
Actually, I've never really had a sense of how many different 'sittings' in each bathroom there were every morning by the Swiss days, when the school was large? Three? Four? More?


Fairly sure there's an account of the bathroom rota for a dormitory in one of the earlier Swiss books, where you know how many people there are in a dormitory and how many bathrooms they have to share - I think there were three slots anyway.

Author:  andydaly [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I was thinking how long it would take to heat enough water for a couple of hundred baths first thing in the morning - you'd have to have someone stoking a furnace all night!

I think the ponytail objection would be that a single ponytail is too mature for a young girl, who would have been expected to have her hair bobbed or in two tails/plaits. Wasn't there a big to-do about Mary-Lou wearing her hair in a single tail? Or is that just because she'd had the Kenwigses for so long?

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Morniong baths had to be either cold or chill off and from the way it was written people who went for chill off were thought of as rather soft.

Author:  Miriam [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

There were normally three slots for morning baths, but occasionally we hear of a fourth slot. I think they tried to keep it down to three, because if you were fourth, you really were pushed for time to get everything done in time for breakfast.

When you think that the bath list had to co-ordinate with the early practice list, and that dormitory prefects always got to bathe first, there must have been quite a bit of work arranging the bath list.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I wonder if Rosalie had to do that as well as everything else. It's a wonder the poor woman never had a nervous breakdown!

Author:  JB [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I think the fuss about Mary Lou (which mainly comes from The Gang) is because she's done something different with her hair. Others in the group do the same thing afterwards - Vi, I think, ties her hair in one tail rather than two - so that they look more like Seniors.

I imagined that Len's pony tail was tied high on her head so it would be more likely to tangle and might Joey see it as a bit too modern? It seems ok for girls to have a single plait or tail which ties on the neck. Hope that makes sense - I can picture it but it's harder to put into words.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I think the problem was that, early on, a high pony tail was seen as "fast."

Author:  abbeybufo [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

JB wrote:
I imagined that Len's pony tail was tied high on her head so it would be more likely to tangle and might Joey see it as a bit too modern? It seems ok for girls to have a single plait or tail which ties on the neck. Hope that makes sense - I can picture it but it's harder to put into words.


Yes, It would have been the 'high on the head' type of ponytail that was considered modern - and possibly a bit fast :roll:

It was a style that we were not allowed at school in the early 1960s, though rules were more relaxed from 1964 on, IIRC - it was also thought that the constant straining of the hair back would cause baldness :shock:

Author:  JustJen [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Pony tails: They are frown on at my son's school due to head lice.

Quote:
Joan wore a thick layer, that 'could be scraped off with a knife', and probably didn't do much for her looks. Apart from that, it was the school rulr that make-up was not allowed for girls under sixteen.


I think they brought that rule in when Betty and Elizabeth and co. were caught wearing lipstick and nail polish when some VIP's were visiting the school.

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

At my junior school in the late 50's there was a battle everyday. A girl would come in with a high pony tail which her mother did for her. The Head teacher (there were only 2 teachers, 1 for all the infants, 1 for the juniors) used to take it down and tie it on her neck. This went on for months and the girl cried nearly every day. We watched with fascination and dread, she was a very "old school" type of teacher and we lived in fear of her. Unfortunately once you were a junior there was no escape from her for the entire 4 years.

Author:  Miriam [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I'm suprised her mother didn't give in, just to save her daughter the daily public embarressment. It wasn't as though she actually acheived anything.


Quote:
I wonder if Rosalie had to do that as well as everything else. It's a wonder the poor woman never had a nervous breakdown!


Don't think so. Whenever bathroom lists need to be rearranged in a hurry we normally see Matron doing it. Baths come under health and hygiene, which is more Matey's area of responsibility than Rosalie's. She probably got the early practice list from the music staff and arranged the baths around it. Maybe a girl was allowed to skip her morning cold bath if she had had a hot bath the night before?

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I've just been thinking, weren't pony tails associated with the rock and roll crowd in the 'fifties? Can't imagine fastidious Len having anything to do with anything so radical, so I wonder why EBD pitched on her for the pony tail and not someone more rebellous.

Author:  Meg14 [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Why didn't they just have showers first thing in the morning? Wouldn't that have saved more time?

Author:  Cat C [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I doubt showers had been invented then!

Author:  JackieP [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

I'm not sure when showers first came into use (they have them in one of the Swiss books, after all), but I suspect they would have started out being the one's which only spray straight down, which would have made it tricky to get a wash without getting hair wet.

JackieP

Author:  Emily [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

janetbrown23 wrote:
At my junior school in the late 50's there was a battle everyday. A girl would come in with a high pony tail which her mother did for her. The Head teacher (there were only 2 teachers, 1 for all the infants, 1 for the juniors) used to take it down and tie it on her neck.


Sounds like the girl with the plaits in Matilda. I'm presuming she didn't get swung around by the pony tail and land in a field?? :shock:

Author:  MaryR [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Cat C wrote:
I doubt showers had been invented then!

:lol: :lol: Oh, I think they had, Cat!! :lol: I had showers at my French penfriend's home in 1961 - indeed they only had a shower, no bath - and it was a big house. They also had them at her weekly boarding school. I must admit it was the first time I had met them, though, and really yearned for a bath after three weeks. :roll:

Author:  Mia [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Showers did exist - think of the showers in Nazi concentration camps. I believe they started to become popular in continental Europe at the beginning of the 1900s but they've been around in their basic form since ancient times. The Greeks depict them in their paintings and writings.

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

In Jane, Len invites Jack into the house for a shower and Jack is seriously impressed when Len tells her that they have about seven bathroom. I often wondered too why the school didn't install showers in Switzerland. It would have made logistical sense in the morning, and a cold shower would have been preferable to a cold bath because you'd have more room to manoeuvre. A quick one two three and you're out.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Showers existed, but were not in general use in British schools (or homes, for that matter); certainly at my place there were none. Then they put some in the "new" cloakroom, but nobody ever used them (we were incredibly body-shy, and you never saw another girl naked, despite dormitories with no cubicles). I think showers were thought of as either Continental or American and Not Very Nice. (And the Swiss Chalet School is very English indeed! The Austrian one isn't, but the baths there were of the type that were filled up with jugs, I think, not plumbed-in).

We had two clean blouses a week and, certainly by the time we left school, changed our underwear daily or almost daily. I can't remember what we did about socks/stockings.....

Author:  champagnedrinker [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

MJKB wrote:
I wonder how often the girls changed their blouses and underwear etc. They bathed very frequently but they may not have been allowed to use deodorant.


Given that we never hear anyone complaining "we're only allowed 2 dresses a week" - in terms of "I smell" & only in terms of "I've got it inky"; I wonder if E B-D was only reflecting the norms of the time, when clothes were harder to wash/iron, and washing machines required much more human intervention ....

As to the comments about deodorant not being that good for girls, it was probably as well ... I'm not that expert in the history of deodorant/ anti-perspirant, but weren't older perspirants pretty bad for you - blocking the pores up completely?

And, I suspect noses are more sensitive today!

Author:  JayB [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

They didn't wear their dresses/blouses and tunics all day every day, did they? They changed if they had games and then again for the evening. So a uniform dress or blouse would last longer than if worn from getting up through to bedtime.

Even when I was at school in the '60s/early '70s, we didn't expect a clean blouse or dress every day. Before automatic washing machines and tumble dryers, it couldn't be done unless you had a dress for every day of the week.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

On the topic of bathing etc., here is a quote from Madeleine L'Engle, who attended an English boarding school in the French Alps in the 1930s. She was born in 1918, and when she was 12, the search for a climate that would help her father's gassed lungs brought the family to the Alps. Sound familiar?
A Circle of Quiet, pp 161-162 wrote:
We were never alone. If we wanted solitude it was thought that we must have some perverse reason. We had fifteen-minute bath "hours" three times a week: we were supposed to bathe modestly in our underclothes; I love nothing better than the glorious sensuous feeling of water on my skin, and would bathe in the normal way, then rush into my underclothes and dip underwater, always afraid of being caught and held up as an example of American depravity (If I did anything wrong it was an international incident); while we were bathing, the matron was apt to peer either over or under the partitions.

At least the CS seems to have offered a little more privacy in the bath, unless you were suffering from hypothermia. I wonder how long the bathing in underclothes remained current, since I suspect at the time few would have been so indelicate as to mention such a thing? However, that general sense of "never alone" seems pretty typical of the CS, very hard on the Eustacias of the world. (I'd have had a hard time myself, even though I spent my early years in a 5-person bedroom.)

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Kathy's quote from 'A Circle of Quiet', is fascinating. That belief that the body is dirty and shameful is so alien to our twenty first century mind, but it still prevailed in some cultures up to the late twentieth century.
Some of the baths in my concent boarding school had boards over them. Apparently the nuns at one time used them when they bathed so that they could avoid looking at their naked bodies. I don't think they were actually in use in my time there, but they obviously hadn't thought to get rid of them. It seems very sad that so many women were emotionally crippled by this overwhelming sense of sin.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

Oh dear - I seem to be sinning either way. I have to cover myself up, but I do so with a load of bubble bath!

Author:  Tor [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laundry and regular changing.

This is a bit madly off topic, but was suddenly wondering when the spa/sauna movement took off in Austria (and Germany).

Whenever I've been to Austrian spas on skiing holidays, they are rather fascistic when it comes to nakedness. In that you HAVE to be. I have no probs with nudity (with strangers at least. I think I'd avoid going to said spa with my in laws, for example :lol: :lol: ), but this wasn't any chilled out, 'hey, anything goes'. It was no nakedness, no entry. I got the impression that a swimming suit was seen as dirty (maybe chlorine from the pool... but you could also swim naked in the pool :| )

Sweden, say, as a contrast is equally into naked saunas, but people are more chilled out in an 'each to his own' kind of way.

I wonder if the Austria of EBDs day was similarly into naturism. I can't quite imagine Herr Mensch (Herr Marani, maybe...) wandering around in the buff, even in a single sex environment. Or is this a more recent thing? I'm getting at the perceived 'healthiness' of naked bathing versus the sinfulness mentioned above. And whether EBD might have subscribed to nakedness for health, but not for enjoyment (say NO to bubbles!).

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