The CBB :: View topic - Language/Dialects EBD got wrong

through

[^/[^Print]\]

The CBB -> Anything Else

#1: Language/Dialects EBD got wrong Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:02 am
—
As I myself read the CS books, one of the most irritating things is EBD's attempt at an Irish 'brogue'. Fair play to her for trying, but it is just blatantly inaccurate. For example - 'ye' in Ireland means exactly a plural of 'you' - directly the same as chi in Welsh and vous in French. But Biddy often uses it to address one person in particular.

So what do the Welsh and Scottish people think of her rendering of their dialects? Does EBD do the 'broken English' of the French or German girl at all accurately? And tell me, because I don't know, is ANY of her actual bits of French or German correct? Laughing

#2: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:09 am
—
I never really noticed her French being that bad. Or at least, I only noticed it being bad when it was being spoken by someone who wouldn't have been fluent and therefore was intentionally bad. But then, my French is pretty appalling.

As for the Hiberno-English, it is awful, isn't it? But no worse than many people's versions of it.

#3: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:27 am
—
'Le comptoir' does not mean 'the bill'. It may have done at one point, possibly, but it now means 'the counter'. One of those words I thought I knew and which took ages to delete!

#4: Author: leahbelle, Location: Kilmarnock

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:02 pm
—
Her attempts at Scottish dialect really annoy me. They sound very contrived and unreal to me and I can't imagine any real Scot using the vernacular the way her characters sometimes do.

Can't comment on the Highland Twins' accents, though, as the islands' accent is very different to that on the mainland.

Last edited by leahbelle on Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

#5: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:55 pm
—
I don't think that my accent sounds 'faintly cockney'. Particularly as Emerence was from the late 40's/early 50's when Australian English was still very much modelled on British English.

#6: Author: Catrin, Location: Durham

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:06 pm
—
As a Cheshire girl born and bred, I have never ever heard the term "collywobbles" that Jack Lambert uses. And it's not an ugly accent at all - unless EBD thinks that Cheshire = Scouse! Laughing

#7: Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:07 pm
—
Some of her French IS grammatically incorrect, though I have no clue about the German. However, I just accept it and read on with a smile. Very Happy

Might be her fault, might be the publisher's.

As to the writing of a French person speaking English, there must be hundreds of ways of doing it. No one way can surely be correct - just think how we all speak French so differently. It all depends on how well a person KNOWS the language, and of course everyone is at a different level.

#8: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:23 pm
—

Tan wrote:

I don't think that my accent sounds 'faintly cockney'. Particularly as Emerence was from the late 40's/early 50's when Australian English was still very much modelled on British English.

I seem to remember Nevil Shute describing Australians as sounding a bit Cockney. Perhaps it was accepted amongst writers of the time, although I think he actually visited Australia, unlike EBD.

#9: Author: Lexi, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:46 pm
—

Catrin wrote:

As a Cheshire girl born and bred, I have never ever heard the term "collywobbles" that Jack Lambert uses. And it's not an ugly accent at all - unless EBD thinks that Cheshire = Scouse! Laughing

I have! But I think I picked it up when I was younger and I was living in Leeds then, not Liverpool so I don't think it's a North-West thing Confused

#10: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:50 pm
—
For something really bizarre, I'd pick her "American" vocabulary. "Collywobbles" sounds a lot more familiar -- though I probably just know too many readers of Miss Read Smile

#11: Author: pim, Location: Londinium

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:54 pm
—

Catrin wrote:

As a Cheshire girl born and bred, I have never ever heard the term "collywobbles" that Jack Lambert uses. And it's not an ugly accent at all - unless EBD thinks that Cheshire = Scouse! Laughing

I've heard of collywobbles. I'm fairly sure it's a term my mother uses - she's from West Yorkshire though...

#12: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:55 pm
—
I think Jack actually says "collywest", which I've an idea is a Cheshire term.

"Collywobbles" is a fairly commonly-used word here (I'm from the Lancashire side of Manchester so I'm not in Cheshire Laughing

) but I don't know if it's a dialect word or not!

I find EBD's ideas of American speech rather bizarre. I have never known an American who regularly goes around referring to people as rubbernecked four-flushers etc Rolling Eyes

#13: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:56 pm
—
Her Wlesh one isn't wonderful either (strange considering how close to the English border Gwensi is that her accent is meant to be so strong), yet Dickie has none) but don't get me started n how ALL of the 'lower' class Welsh characters have to have the same surname and first name

#14: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:04 pm
—
I think Dickie wasn't brought up in Wales though? Don't the family move there from somewhere else? Or am I fabricating?

I've never noticed anything with EBD's use of Scots dialect to criticise. I don't remember it being used often. The most prominent Scottish characters, the twins, are Highlanders so I can't really comment on the accuracy of their depiction. Actually I quite liked it but I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrong.

What really gets me is how 99% of Scottish characters are called Jean (of course I'm talking about the girls here) though, to be fair, EBD is not alone in that. EB is worse. Also how they all believe all the local myths. It's not the belief that annoys me so much as the fact that none of the English girls believe in any English myths. I'm sure there must be some! CS is not so bad as Judy the Guide, which I just read in transcript and which really annoyed me for its national stereotypes. Evil or Very Mad

#15: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:06 pm
—
I found this on the internet:

Quote:

Colly-west is a very old English dialect expression meaning "awry, contradictory, or in the wrong direction," derived from the name of Collyweston, a village in Northampshire, England. It's not clear what the inhabitants of the little village of Collyweston did to deserve being so immortalized, but there you have it.

Apparently, the phrase dates from Elizabethan times... Why EBD would associate it with Cheshire, I have no clue.

Very Happy

#16: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 pm
—
My family uses collywobbles and I don't think we have any Cheshire ancestry (or if we do it is several generations back!) I always loved the word until a few moments ago. According to the online dictionary it means bowel pain! The word colly is supposed to derive from coal ...

#17: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:00 pm
—
I think the way she writes the Highland Twins' accent isn't too bad. It's their clothes that always bothered me! But I HATE the bit (in New Mistress? Or maybe Excitements? Or Theodora? Confused

) with the Scottish boy staying at the hotel or pension or whatever it is, who likes all baby animals and steals the piglet. I can't remember what he says, exactly, but it always makes me cringe. It's not really the words he says, which aren't really wrong in themselves, I think it's more just the stereotyping. Or is it because it says he's from Glasgow and he doesn't use Glasgow words? I can't remember exactly what it is Embarassed

. And I hate it when people like Biddy, and the Scottish boy from the Mystic M, and Gwensi, are told off for speaking with their natural accents, and ordered to speak better English, as though an English accent was somehow superior.

#18: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:23 pm
—
Oh yes the clothes are appalling! EBD clearly got the idea from a tin of shortbread or a Highland games or something. Women woldn't even have worn those clothes! Gah.

That bit with the wee boy and the pig did annoy me I think. Can't remember why though. Actually I think I just found the whole scene really annoying. Or maybe it was because it wasn't very likely that someone who could afford a Swiss holiday would speak all that broadly - but unfortunately despite the best efforts of EBD and her ilk, we all still talk like Wullie from The Simpsons.

The 'brogue' thing used to really annoy me as well - especially in New/United with the mystic M boy because then it is really none of whichever mistress it was's business. I don't remember Gwensi being told off but Biddy getting lectured on her language was one of my main problems with the books when I was a kid. It's just so snobbish - like in Leader when we learn that Jack has been in trouble for speaking the Cheshire dialect. And in Problem when we are told that ros had 'always spoken prettily' but (thank God) was losing her ? accent. Wherabouts did she come from?

#19: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:29 pm
—

Loryat wrote:

And in Problem when we are told that ros had 'always spoken prettily' but (thank God) was losing her ? accent. Wherabouts did she come from?

She came from Hampshire.

But that was what was considered correct in those days - national or regional accents were simply not appropriate or acceptable for a properly educated person, so elocution lessons were common. My English teacher at school told us that she had to lose her Welsh accent very rapidly at Oxford - that would probably have been just after WWII.

#20: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:55 pm
—
I just assumed she'd lived locally as it was mentioned about her ancestors all living there

#21: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:47 pm
—
And yet it's OK for Miss Stewart to have a 'soft Highland accent' - Eusatacia I think.

#22: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:53 pm
—
There's a bit from Blyton's "The Twins at St Clare's" that always stuck with me for whatever reason:

Quote:

The Irish lilt in their voices was very pleasant to hear.

Yup, that's me. Irish lilt. Laughing

I get so self-conscious about my accent when I'm in a group of people with another accent. I was really aware of it at the Gather! It must have been weird for the CS girls with local accents.

#23: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:54 pm
—

Hannah-Lou wrote:

Or maybe Excitements? Or Theodora? Confused

) with the Scottish boy staying at the hotel or pension or whatever it is, who likes all baby animals and steals the piglet. I can't remember what he says, exactly, but it always makes me cringe.

His dad calls the boy a "wee gomerril" (can't spell it) when he reprimands him for stealing the pig.

Quote:

And it's not an ugly accent at all - unless EBD thinks that Cheshire = Scouse!

*Coughs*

I was discussing accents with year 10 today trying to get them to think about prejudice. They like Irsih and Scottish accents, but not Welsh. Then I horrified them with different accounts of people not liking the Scouse accent.

#24: Author: white_hart, Location: Oxford

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:18 pm
—
A friend who also likes the CS asked a Welsh friend of ours the other day if 'hanes' was really Welsh. And apparently it is! But it's pronounced 'ha-ness', and we'd both been saying 'hayns' Rolling Eyes

#25: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:36 pm
—
I've also only herd it used for history, not for gossip. Clec for gossip

#26: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:36 pm
—
It's used for gossip where I come from (Swansea area) as in 'when she phones she gives me all the hanes'.

Our acceptance of and enjoyment of regional accents is really fairly recent, EBD was only following received wisdom. I suppose it was thought that an accent would hold you back, and also that you wouldn't be generally understood, and I think that was more true when people moved about far less and weren't used to hearing other modes of speech. I was certainly shipped off to elocution classes in my youth. Seems incredible now.

I must say that the (undeliberate) French mistakes I've noticed have been fairly sophisticated ones, and it was reading the books that sparked off my own lifelong interest in languages, so I feel quite grateful to EBD!

#27: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:50 pm
—

Tara wrote:

Our acceptance of and enjoyment of regional accents is really fairly recent, EBD was only following received wisdom.

It wasn't unique to the UK, either. I think I've mentioned before that my own mother was forced into speech therapy for several years, because her accent was considered too Southern for an educator. She always reverted when she got on the phone to relatives, but ironically went on the war path if we picked up speech patterns from 'your father's ignorant relatives.' (To be fair, that was less a matter of accent than things like "huh" at the end of a sentence.)

#28: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:03 am
—
It's not just EBD that talks about accents but a lot of characters change their accents in Michelle Magorian's books especially the scholarship kids. And a lot of them are teased for their accents. In regards to Biddy I think the attitude towards the Irish especially back then was pretty appalling, though there rarely seems to be a comment on Deira's accent

#29: Author: Caty, Location: New Zealand

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:24 am
—
Ah, but Deira may well have been Anglo-Irish. Wasn't her father in the Army? And then she probably would have spoken with an English accent.

#30: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:38 am
—

Tara wrote:

Our acceptance of and enjoyment of regional accents is really fairly recent, EBD was only following received wisdom.

I can remember getting into trouble as a kid/teenager if I came out with anything that sounded remotely Bristolian - particularly the very glottal urr on words that end er; that was a sure fire way (at age eight or nine) to get a five minute lecture on speaking proper English.

And that is only twenty years ago.

Mind you, the Bristolian accent is one of the less attractive regional accents so perhaps my parents did have a small point...

Ray *did have to cultivate a Bristol twang for her first job however!*

#31: Author: Rosy-Jess, Location: Gloucestershire-London-Aberystwyth

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:48 am
—
People frequently don't believe that I come from the field formerly known as Gloucestershire because I have a generic southern accent. They're more willing to accept I come from the Cotswolds though, because "I speak properly."

Having lived away from Gloucestershire for a few years I am rapidly losing my ability to pick up the local accent on my return, but there was a fabulous verse which we used to say at school which I always remember which depicts the accent nicely. Please excuse my spelling;

'Ay can't read nor write, but that don't really matter, 'cos I does come from Gloster-shire, an' Ay can drive a tratter'

That always helps me pick it up. Apparantly they say it in Somerset and Wiltshire as well though.

#32: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:55 am
—

Ray wrote:

Tara wrote:

Our acceptance of and enjoyment of regional accents is really fairly recent, EBD was only following received wisdom.

As a child growing up in Morley, but going to the "posh" school in Leeds, I very quickly learnt to have 2 ways of speaking, (but refused point blank to have the elocution lessons that a lot of my friends at school had). But I could never understand why my parents made such a fuss about me speaking like the other local kids did.

Now that I have 3 kids and (by sheer chance) live half a mile from where I grew up, I understand exactly why my parents hated the "Maaarli" accent so much Laughing

Back in the 1960s, it was impossible to get a job with the BBC unless you spoke "Queen's English", regional accents were completely barred. When I left school in 78 we were told that we would be judged at interviews by the way we spoke (which may well have been my school being 10 years behind the times, but gives an indication of how important it still was).

Even now some accents are seen as much more attractive than others and people who run call cntres have to juggle between locating to an area where there is a pleasant local accent and where the government incentives are for new companies.

#33: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:46 pm
—
My friend who is a German teacher read School at for the first time recently (another step towards CS world domination) and was huffing and puffing about the use of German phrases in no time at all. A lovely bus ride was punctuated by exclamations of "they wouldn't say that!" at regular intervals (don't ask me what they wouldn't say however as I stopped listening quite early on). I just remember thinking it was great as I began to learn French and German at school and could work out for myself what was being said. I felt very cosmopolitan.

#34: Author: francesn, Location: away with the faeries

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:20 pm
—
I only found Gwensi's accent annoying because it wasn't what I would associate with that area of Wales. It is, however, Welsh. Just about 100miles west of where she was setting it.

EBD's German can be wonderfully ungrammatical - I can't think of any examples of the top of my head, but literally translating some of her comments can be quite amusing.

#35: Author: Charity,

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:55 pm
—

Kathy_S wrote:

Tara wrote:

Our acceptance of and enjoyment of regional accents is really fairly recent, EBD was only following received wisdom.

It wasn't unique to the UK, either.

My husband is always being told off by his mother when he uses local Cypriot words (in Greek) rather than speaking like someone from Athens Rolling Eyes

Terribly snobbish and such a shame she isn't proud of where they come from.

I'd love to have read EBD's take on a Greek accent Smile

#36: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:15 pm
—
I must put my hand up as another mother who says, "speak proper English" In Staffordshire book is pronounced with a loooong boooook rather than buk, and also the other ooo words - including the furry ursine puppet named sooty! I come from Nottinghanmhire - but my parents made sure I didnt grow up with the Notts accent - even though I understand it perfectly! I still feel regret that the dialect words and accents are diminishing rapidly - I had problems understanding my F_I_L when I moved here! Werrit, fettle and firkle any one?

#37: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:13 pm
—

Karry wrote:

I must put my hand up as another mother who says, "speak proper English" In Staffordshire book is pronounced with a loooong boooook rather than buk, and also the other ooo words - including the furry ursine puppet named sooty! I come from Nottinghanmhire - but my parents made sure I didnt grow up with the Notts accent - even though I understand it perfectly! I still feel regret that the dialect words and accents are diminishing rapidly - I had problems understanding my F_I_L when I moved here! Werrit, fettle and firkle any one?

I always thought that my Mum was awful for correcting my "adorable" attempts to put on a Fife accent as a youngster but heaven knows I;m grateful now. It is one of the less attractive Scottish accents in it's broadest form. I sometimes think they invented the glottal stop there and my most distinct memory is Mum saying "it's butter, not burr"! Actually that sounds incredibly snobbish doesn't it? But people now compliment me on my "lovely soft Scottish accent" so I'm quite glad she insisted I didn't adopt the full on Fife twang even if it wasn't PC. The other thing they do is put "like" at the end of nearly every sentence, ostensibly as an interrogative e.g "I was going for the messages, like and went to that new shop, you ken? Oh - have you been there already, like?" And you get the picture.

#38: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:54 am
—
I can understand wanting a neutral accent for things like TV broadcasting and call centres - it's counterproductive if 2/3 of the listeners can't understand the person who's speaking.

On a side note - in Taiwan, learning English is quite popular. The schools like to hire teachers with American accents (as opposed to, say, British). However, the people hiring can't necessarily tell the difference between an English and an American accent by ear, so they go by passport, prefering people wtih Canadian or American passports.

So my roommate, who was born in Poland and speaks English fluently but with a Polish accent, has no problem getting a job, but a friend of hers who was raised in Canada and speaks with a pure Canadian accent has trouble finding a job because he has a British passport.

Plus, I'm not sure I'd want my kids learning some of the American regional accents either.

#39: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:51 am
—

Kathy_S wrote:

Couteney Cox is from the South and when she decided to beome an actress had to go to elocution lessons to lose her accent, which I think is pretty bad in this day and age. Though just as well as if she hadn't we'd never have had her lovely Monica in Friends.

#40: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:58 pm
—
And these days, because I speak "received pronunciation" or whatever it's called, I get accused of being "high class" or "posh"..... which, believe me, I do not take as a compliment.

Ray, the Bristol accent is lovely, one of my favourites!

And I think Dick Francis also has an Australian character finding it easy to pass as a cockney.

#41: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:19 pm
—
I think part of the thing about regional accents and phrases was that there were a lot of non-first-language English speakers at the school, and the school didn't want them to pick up any non-standard English. That's fair enough - when I went to France for the first time, the family I stayed with were told off by their mother for speaking slang in front of me, because they didn't want me to pick up any improper French.

How much French and German did EBD really know? She seems to use French more than German in the books, and use more indicators of French when writing English (phrases like "but yes" and "my Jo"). I've spotted some French howlers, but I don't know whether they're attributable to her ignorance, or to her publishers/editors' ignorance/carelessness.

#42: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:40 pm
—

Mrs Redboots wrote:

And these days, because I speak "received pronunciation" or whatever it's called, I get accused of being "high class" or "posh"..... which, believe me, I do not take as a compliment.

I get that a bit too. The funniest thing in Edinburgh is that a lot of people I speak with are profoundly shocked when I say I went to a normal state comprehensive school in Dunfermline. The assumption seems to be that as I have a fairly middle class (terrible phrase but I can't think of another) Scottish accent and went to university I cannot possibly have received a state education. Is Edinburgh the only city in the UK where it's believed by a large swathe of the population that it is almost essential to send your kids to private school if you want them to do well? It really astounded me when I moved here at 18 to discover that it wasn't just the filthy rich who felt they needed to pay for schools. It was normal families like my own whose parents were (not very well paid) teachers and the like. It's not as if there are no good state schools in Edinburgh either. Some top the league tables regularly. There are a few bad ones, of course, but they are in a minority and allegedly improving all the time.

Anyway I'm rambling at a total tangent to the topic. To sort of get back on track I'll wonder whether a CS teacher could have afforded to send their child to the CS if they had been e.g an impoverished widow (i.e with no private income just like most of us and thus dependent on earning a living) with one child. Personally I doubt they could have afforded it but if the poor kid was allowed to attend I expect it would be a bit awful having your Mummy as one of your teachers. I speak from semi-experience. My Dad taught at a different school from mine but enough of the teachers at my school knew him and they often embarrassed me about it. Even worse at primary school my grandfather was headteacher of another primary school in a neighbouring town and all my headmasters knew him and made sure I knew it!

#43: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:43 pm
—
Both my parents were teachers in my school, although my dad retired two years before I started. It never really bothered me on a day-to-day basis, although to this day I think I was discriminated against on prize days etc because the teachers (who I knew really well) didn't want to seem to be favouring me.

I think some of the mistresses has little sisters in the school - the Burnetts, perhaps?

#44: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:16 pm
—
From some of Joey's comments I get the impression that she and Jack might've struggled to send all their kids to private schools had the girls not been able to go to the CS for free.

There's also a comment, when they're raising money for the chapels in Coming of Age and Biddy O'Ryan says that she'll donate a tenth of he salary Shocked

, by ... I think it's Davida Armitage, about how she's helping to pay for her nephews' school fees so she doesn't have much money to spare, which I always found quite interesting.

Sorry, that's got way back off topic again! It must've been a bit odd for a lot of people in that they had close connections to the staff - Joey had her sister as Head, and the younger Maynards/Bettanys/Russells all knew most of the staff well - Len got a black look for saying "Auntie Biddy" instead of "Miss O'Ryan" at one point - and it must've been hard for all the staff dealing with them.

#45: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:16 am
—
Hmm, well Madge had her sister, Miss Burnett had two younger sisters at the school and Miss Burn had one, Mlle Lepattre had her nieces there and Matron Venables had her daughter. I think that's all, and most of those were in the early day.

The school must have been pretty expensive in the Swiss days. They didn't have the cost of living/cheap labour advantages of Austria, most of the girls travelled internationally to get there, and the school offered a lot of things.

Language specialisation (French, English, German, Latin, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Middle English), skiing, boating, a swimming pool and gymnasium, art and drama and dance and private music lessons, two chapels, a library, a full science lab and domestic economy lab, gardening, extensive half term trips, really good food and extra special medical care.

Plus, all the Maynards, Bettanys, Russells and Venables got free tuition and living expenses and only had to pay for extra lessons.

#46: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:30 am
—

Tamzin wrote:

As someone who went to state school in Edinburgh I can tell you that lots of fairly well off people do send their kids to state schools. Since I've always lived in Edinburgh I don't know how many private schools we have in comaprison to everywhere else, but my mum's from the west and she says there's loads.

I have encountered a lot of people with CS type attitudes who, if their families can't afford school fees, are encouraged to get scholarships etc because to their parents it is simply unthinkable to sent your child to a state school (at least past the primary age). Actually one of my best friends went to a private school on a bursary. She told me it was because the local school was really rough so her mum didn't want her going there and I took this as fact until I discovered that actually it was one of the better schools in Edinburgh (and a lot better than mine).

My head teacher at my primary sent all his kids to his school, and most of the teachers sent their kids to a state school, but there was one who sent her kids to private school. A teacher at my high school wanted to send her kids to private school, but one didn't want to go and ended up in a state school.

#47: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:59 am
—
I seem to remember that the triplets and Stephen don't cost the parents anything for their education because of 'Granny Maynard's legacy' It always made me think that she must have been a rich old bird to finance 52 years of private education!

#48: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:13 pm
—
I don't think Joey ever paid for the triplets' education as her sister owned the school. It was just Stephen that was provided for y Granny Maynard, I thought.

#49: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:17 pm
—
Weren't they planning to use the triplets' share of Granny Maynard's legacy to help them through university?

#50: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:19 pm
—
Oh... that does actually sound familiar.

Ignore me, I'm highly sleep deprived. Laughing

#51: Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:38 pm
—
I'd love to see a drabble about the very early school days of one of the Bettany/Russell/Maynard clan. Len tells Richenda in 'Richenda' Rolling Eyes

that they found it very difficult to remember to make 'Auntie Hilda' into 'Miss Annersley' and that's reinforced by Joey in 'Tirol'. Anyone? Could be quite funny..

Back on track... I had to consciously drop my not-very-strong Belfast accent when I went to school in Berks. Between everyone going 'huh' and my speech therapist telling me off for going too fast, switching accents was inevitable. Funny, the complaints reduced once I started using a poshish southern English accent.... Although when I came home for uni, my dad told me to drop the English accent because (a) it was English and (b) it was posh English! Now I don't really have a strong accent at all, although I have been known to switch from BBC English-Belfast-tinge of Liverpool in one conversation, much to my friends' annoyance or amusement...

I'm amused by the comments re Australian accents and Cockney- mainly because to me, that's what it does sound like! Although the Aussie accent is stronger than Cockney...

Re 'hanes' I suppose that's the equivalent of our 'craic'?

..and as for Deira, regardless of her father's occupation I very much doubt she would be classed as Anglo-Irish. Her name is a traditional Irish one to begin with, and have you forgotten her 'Irish grievance' rant re Cromwell et al in 'Head Girl'? Not something a girl with an A/I background is likely to worry about too much...

#52: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:06 am
—
I thought that rant came from an old Nurse of hers -rather than one of her own opinions?

#53: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:51 am
—
I find the private school attitudes really interesting - where I grew up sending your kid to a private (i.e. with fees, not part of the state system) school was quite rare. It was more common to make sure you bough a house in an area with good schools.

It was funny, because people who sent their kids to private school were often the ones who had out of control kids, and figured private school would straighten them out. I had to wonder about the effect of loads of discipline problems on a posh school classroom. The other primary reasons were a kid who was struggling at public school, often because of a behaviour or learning problem, and needed more attention and a very structured environment to thrive, or people who sent their kids to religious private schools.

I get the impression that the motivation for sending your kid to private school in England was multi faceted - partly for the quality of the education, partly for the social connections (not being exposed to the 'wrong sort' of people, making ties to the old girl/boy network for later career advancement, partly to regulate accents, again for success in later life.

You see a similar sort of thing in the US among upperclass professional families these days - if their child doesn't get into an Ivy League university, their life is obviously going to be meaningless, and there's a huge push to get kids in, involving private tutoring, SAT classes, music/dance/elocution/art lessons, carefully choreographed extracurricular and volunteer activites, all to produce the perfect college application.

#54: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:52 am
—

Lesley wrote:

I thought that rant came from an old Nurse of hers -rather than one of her own opinions?

Me, too. And she gets presented at Court and comes out in London Society as a debutante after leaving the school. Regardless of Deira's name, it all sounds pretty minor-aristocrat and Anglo-Irish to me....

#55: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:10 pm
—
I went to a private primary school for purely practical reasons. In order to get to the state primary I'd have had to cross a major road. There were two younger than me at home, my brother being newborn. In order to take me there, my mother would have had to turn out with all three of us in all weathers. The private school was just along the road and my mother could see me safely into the school gates from our own front door.

My sister followed me to that school. My brother went to the state primary school for various reasons. Our private school was girls only. By the time he was school age they'd changed the school catchment areas - because of the road, in fact - so his journey to school didn't involve any major road crossing. And as he was the youngest, my mother didn't have to worry about dragging younger ones around on the walk to and fro. In fact, as it was a safe walk, he went to and fro on his own from the age of 7 or 8.

At that age, I wasn't really aware of what my friends' fathers did, but the houses I visited weren't any different from my own - ie standard 3-bed semis. All the pupils seemed to come from normal suburban families. (In the Junior part that is. There was a Zulu princess in the Seniors...)

The school was a convent, and some parents had chosen it because they were Catholics, but by no means all the pupils were Catholic - we weren't. So, the point of this ramble is, people might choose private school for all sorts of reasons.

#56: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:49 pm
—
Caroline wrote:

Quote:

Regardless of Deira's name, it all sounds pretty minor-aristocrat and Anglo-Irish to me....

Can someone please tell me what Anglo-Irish means?

#57: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:02 pm
—
In this context, it means people of a privileged social class in Ireland who were descended from the Protestant English settlers from the 17th-19th centuries. In a nutshell! But as you can imagine, it's pretty complicated politically... and it's generally a historical term.

#58: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:02 pm
—
On the private school front, for me (and for my brother) it was a case of private school for secondary at almost any cost. The state school(s) I was catchmented for were absolutely diabolically bad (to give you an example of one, my mother toured it on one of the open evenings and had a look at the display in the maths class room - which showed, amongst other things, a beautifully set out long division problem. The teacher, seeing her interest in it, said "That's an example of our third year work. It's very advanced." *pauses to let that sink in* My mother stared at the teacher for a second and said, "My daughter has just finished learning long division now." I was 11. The Monks Park third years were 14/15.) and the other state schools where I had any hope of going (and that would have been via the appeals process) were not a great deal better. In fact, I think roughly half my (state) primary class ended up going private because of this!

Also, on the subject of parent teachers, I do know one lad who probably wished his father HADN'T been teaching at his school - his father was either head of sixth form or deputy head at the school...and consequently had to deal with some of the backwash when darling son was caught dealing drugs...

Lastly, Mrs Redboots: Each to their own! All I can say is that it ceases to have any attraction when you've been sworn in it enough times!

Ray *swannee? Deese gettin'!*

#59: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:10 pm
—
Thanks, Kate, for your explanation of the term Anglo-Irish. Would there be any relationship between them and the people described as Orangemen in Gone With the Wind?

#60: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:21 pm
—
I haven't read or seen Gone with the Wind, so I don't know! But in contemporary Ireland, Orangemen are members of the Orange Order in Northern Ireland - which is a Protestant organisation. They're closely associated with Unionism - ie they support Northern Ireland's union with Britain.

It's not precisely the same thing as Anglo-Irish, as the Anglo-Irish wouldn't necessarily be Unionist or Northen Irish. Aside from the fact that the Orange Order is a contemporary thing and Anglo-Irish is generally a historical term now. But Orangemen in Gone with the Wind could be different and so in that context, might be the same as Anglo-Irish!

#61: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:06 pm
—
I think the original Orangemen were soldiers of William of Orange - who was the Protestant Dutch King? invited to take the thrown of England from the despised Catholic King James, and - here is where history falls out of my head - I think sent soldiers over to Ireland, but someone else will have to fill in the details of why, because I can't be bothered to go downstairs and dig out the book I read about it in Embarassed

#62: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:12 pm
—
All you ever wanted to know about the Orange Order in the north is here.

From this page I think it is the same Orangemen ye are talking about, especially from this bit (in a summary of Chapter 3 of GWTW):

Quote:

Gerald had come to America from Ireland at the age of twenty-one. Gerald’s family was poor and Catholic, and for years had actively opposed the occupying English (and Protestant) government agents (called Orangemen after the Protestant King of England, Scotland and Ireland, William of Orange, 1650-1702). Gerald had killed an English landlord’s rent agent and had left Ireland with a price on his head. He had gone to work at the Savannah store belonging to his brothers, James and Andrew, who were already living in America. Gerald was ambitious, and had not wanted to spend his life in the store.

#63: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:06 pm
—
The term "Orangemen" - "named after" William of Orange (who defeated James II at the Battle of the Boyne in Northern Ireland) - is more commonly used to refer to Protestants from Northern Ireland/with Northern Irish ancestry than to "Anglo-Irish" Protestants. A lot of Northern Irish Protestants, being Presbyterian/of other Nonconformist denominations, were actually barred from local government posts etc by the legislation which restricted such positions to Anglicans.

(Gerald O'Hara refers in very negative terms to one of the neighbouring families as "Scotch-Irish" - they would've been Protestants of Northern Irish origin.)

It does also get used to describe Protestants generally, though.

"Anglo-Irish" usually refers more to either the descendants of Anglo-Norman families who settled in Ireland in medieval times, or the descendants of English Protestants, usually Anglicans/Church of Ireland, who were given land in Ireland either by Oliver Cromwell or William of Orange, and were generally fairly wealthy/privileged. The Duke of Wellington's probably the most famous historical example.

I assume that Deira belonged to that group seeing as she was presented at court. Possibly Mollie Bettany, whose father was apparently still with the Foresters in India after the Irish Free State was set up Confused

, did too.

#64: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:29 pm
—
Thanks for all your explanations about the Anglo-Irish and Orangmen. If Diera was from one of the Anglo-Irish families who would have benefitted from her ancestors getting land from, say, Cromwell, then why the rant about Cromwell in Head Girl? It could be, as Lesley said, that she was just spouting opinions she heard from her nurse or someone else, or I suppose it could have just have been an EBDism in that she changed from Irish Catholic to Anglo-Irish between books.

Thanks, Alison for also mentioning the Scotch-Irish family (the MacIntoshes) in GWTW. I had been wondering about them too as I assumed that their families had originally come to Ireland from Scotland. But I guess I was wrong (though why if they were Protestants from Northern Ireland was the word Scotch used?)

#65: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:51 pm
—
I suspect that EBD just didn't know much about Ireland. As Lisa said above, "Deira O'Hagan" is a very Irish name - even to this day, you can often tell whether an Irish person is Protestant or Catholic from their surname. I would have said O'Hagan would be an Irish Catholic surname - and therefore she would not be likely to be Anglo-Irish. But EBD probably didn't know these things, picked an Irish name for an Irish character and then wrote about the Irish that she knew - who would more than likely have been Anglo-Irish.

#66: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:29 am
—
The actual phrase is as follows -

Quote:

"..'Tis not meself to be submitting to the tyrant of her, be she fifty times head girl here. She may be English - the curse of Cromwell on thim all!" (this last with a sudden hazy remembrance of her old nurse) - "but I'm Irish, and there's niver a one of us fears a tyrant-"

#67: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:07 am
—

macyrose wrote:

Thanks, Alison for also mentioning the Scotch-Irish family (the MacIntoshes) in GWTW. I had been wondering about them too as I assumed that their families had originally come to Ireland from Scotland. But I guess I was wrong (though why if they were Protestants from Northern Ireland was the word Scotch used?)

A lot of the Protestant families in Northern Ireland are descended from Scottish families who settled there in the 17th and 18th centuries. I think "Scotch-Irish" is a more American term - although IIRC it's also used in The Thorn Birds so maybe it's an Australian term too - because British history books tend to use the term "Ulster Scots" instead.

#68: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:16 am
—
The term "Scotch-Irish" or "Ulster Scots" would also probably also suggest that the people in question are Presbyterian as opposed to Church of Ireland/England.

Is there ever a mention of Deira's religion? Or Biddy's? Or any other Irish girl?

#69: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:41 am
—
I'm positive that Biddy's Catholic - although I can't actually think where it says so Embarassed

. Clare Kennedy is also Catholic - she's mentioned as being the one who takes Nina Rutherford to Catholic prayers when Nina's new. Mollie Bettany was presumably Protestant though.

I don't think Deira's religion's ever mentioned.

I've just picked up Althea to see if Althea's religion's mentioned, and the 4th page mentions that Althea's brother's going to be spending his summer holidays at Strangeways ... that's completely distracted me now Laughing

#70: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:50 pm
—
Thanks Alison and Kate for explaining the term Scotch-Irish. I learn so much on this board! Very Happy

I too had been wondering if Deira's religion was ever mentioned but was too lazy to go through all the books. Even it had been mentioned that she was Catholic that doesn't mean she couldn't have switched religions between books. Sort of like Jack Maynard. He's Mollie Maynard's brother and IIRC Mollie is a Protestant so we would assume her brother was one too but somewhere along the line Jack becomes a Catholic (in Highland Twins when Fiona is going to use her second sight to try to "see" Jack she's given the rosary that Jack used since he was a boy at school which implies he's always been Catholic).

#71: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:12 am
—

macyrose wrote:

Thanks Alison and Kate for explaining the term Scotch-Irish. I learn so much on this board! Very Happy

I've had to look at the issue of Deira's religion and background, as she's going to be the focus of my next fill in CS book. As far as I can find, she is never mentionned as being either Protestant or Catholic, and is never shown as going to either set of Prayers particularly.

Her whole background is a mass of confusion. The very Irish name; the lack of stereotypical Irish accent (like Biddy's); the Spanish grandmother; the presentation at Court; the rant about Cromwell; the debutante thing.

You could probably argue it either way. I've plumped for Anglo-Irish Protestant aristocracy..... Who knows what EBD actually meant for her to be!

Laughing

#72: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:08 pm
—
Caroline wrote:

Quote:

I've had to look at the issue of Deira's religion and background, as she's going to be the focus of my next fill in CS book.

I'm looking forward to reading your next book, Caroline! Have you started writing it? When do you think it may be published?

#73: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:50 am
—

macyrose wrote:

Caroline wrote:

Quote:

I've had to look at the issue of Deira's religion and background, as she's going to be the focus of my next fill in CS book.

I'm looking forward to reading your next book, Caroline! Have you started writing it? When do you think it may be published?

I've kind of started... I wrote about ten chapters some time ago - whilst Juliet was still in editing and I was in The Zone. Since Juliet got published, though, I haven't written anything! All authored out, I think.

The first three chapters (or a slight adaption of) have been submitted to FOCS to be published as a short story / teaser, which is what I did for Juliet. I'm hoping to get some feedback from the Irish FOCS contingent on my thoughts of Deira's background - I don't want to write the whole book and then find my ideas are completely wrong...

So, the short story should be in the next three FOCS mags - although I haven't had that confirmed; it might start in August rather than May.

As for the book, well, I know of at least three or four other books ahead of me in the queue (those by Lisa_T and KB being two of them), and I have to finish it first. I wouldn't reckon on seeing it till at least 2010.... Very Happy

#74: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:28 pm
—
*bounces up* If you need any more Irish opinions you know where I am... Very Happy

#75: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:49 pm
—
And moi! Whereabouts was Deira supposed to be from anyhow?

#76: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:53 pm
—
Ireland Wink

#77: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:04 am
—

Róisín wrote:

And moi! Whereabouts was Deira supposed to be from anyhow?

County Cork, according to Head Girl. I've put her family in an entirely made up and probably ruined castle in the Blackwater Valley (when they aren't in London, anyway...). I understand there are one or two castles in that neck of the woods...

#78: Author: meerium, Location: belfast, northern ireland

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:02 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

The term "Orangemen" - "named after" William of Orange (who defeated James II at the Battle of the Boyne in Northern Ireland) - is more commonly used to refer to Protestants from Northern Ireland/with Northern Irish ancestry than to "Anglo-Irish" Protestants. A lot of Northern Irish Protestants, being Presbyterian/of other Nonconformist denominations, were actually barred from local government posts etc by the legislation which restricted such positions to Anglicans.

...

It does also get used to describe Protestants generally, though.

Can I just check something, Alison H? Are you referring to historically, in literature, or currently? Because certainly currently, 'the term 'Orangemen' refers to members of the Orange Order, not Northern Irish Protestants generally. As a Northern Irish methodist, I'd take heeeeuuuuuuge exception to being referred to as an Orange(wo)man!!! The colour orange tends to be associated with Unionism (in the same way Nationalism tends to be associated with green), but the term 'Orangeman' is specific to the Orange Order.

#79: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:10 pm
—
Sorry Embarassed

- I meant in terms of 19th century books which I think was the original question, and I probably didn't put it very well. Didn't mean to offend anyone - sorry again Embarassed

#80: Author: meerium, Location: belfast, northern ireland

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:47 am
—
Lol, not offended in the slightest! I figured you didn't really mean these days, but just wanted to clarify; and I was hoping to do it in a way that indicated I wasn't actually offended. Very Happy

#81: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:57 am
—

Alison H wrote:

Also, the Scots who inhabit what is now called Scotland originally migrated from Ireland - back in the 4th/5th century. The surmane prefix 'Mac' meaning 'son of' dates from that time and was brought to (present day) Scotland by the migrating Scots from Ireland. So the Scots who went to Ireland in the 17th/18th century were actually migrating back to their original homeland.

#82: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 2:39 pm
—

JayB wrote:

This is my area so I feel I have to jump in with some kind of comment Embarassed

Early medieval Scotland was a mix of immigrating Irish, Picts and immigrating Saxons and the like. The Irish influence was concentrated on the side of Scotland that was (is) closest to Ireland and it gradually weakened over time, until you have two very different sets of people.

The language, however, stayed - we know almost nothing of Pictish and the language we call 'Scots-Gaelic' is really very very similar to Irish - they are almost as close as American and British English - the main difference is spelling and pronunciation, but the words are the same, e.g. d'oscail (Irish) d'fhoghscail (Scots-Gaelic) - both pronounced "duskell".

There is a millenium in between the original Irish invasion of western Scotland and the emigrating Scots who came to Ireland later on (although there was, of course, constant communication). So the idea of them "really just coming home" or coming back to "their original homeland" is, I think, giving a very misleading picture of the attitude of both sides, and discounting an awful lot of history that happened in between.

#83: Children spelling Author: Lorna, Location: Birmingham, England

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:09 pm
—
I am a teacher living on the Birmingham/ Black country background. Some of the children in my class have been known to spell 'I' as 'oy' because of their local accents. I think accents and dialects are fascinating!

#84: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:18 pm
—
Some of the pupils I teach hardly ever use 'my' preferring 'me' e.g. 'me mum said that I can go to the park.'

#85: Author: francesn, Location: away with the faeries

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:30 pm
—
Hi Lorna and congrats on your first post!

#86: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:06 pm
—
I used to know a guy from Newfoundland and I loved his accent. He also had a distinctive way of speaking. For example, instead of saying "I'm tired" he'd say "John be tired". I guess it's all relative because to him I was the one with the accent.

Also on the topic of language, one of my colleagues is Scottish and he and his wife took a trip recently to the U.S. He told me that many of the people he met couldn't understand what he was saying and his wife, who's Russian, had to translate for him and they understood her perfectly! At first I thought he was joking but he assured me it was true.

Last edited by macyrose on Thu May 03, 2007 11:56 pm; edited 3 times in total

#87: It gets worse ... Author: Lorna, Location: Birmingham, England

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:07 pm
—
Thanks Frances ...

The worst of it is sometimes my pupils will say somethin to me and I find myself going all colloquial in reply. We were learning the 'ai' sound the other day so I taught them to say 'The rain in spain falls mainly on the plain.' They were quite impressed with that!

#88: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:21 am
—

macyrose wrote:

Also on the topic of language, one of my colleagues is Scottish and he and his wife took a trip recently to the U.S. He told me that many of the people he met couldn't understand what he was saying and his wife, who's Russian, had to translate for him and they understood her perfectly! At first I thought he was joking but he assured me it was true.

I can believe that...when my dad went to New York he and his friend were asked what language they were speaking! They were speaking English with Scottish accents.

I think most people, when they learn English, learn American-English - therefore they sound more American then we do.

#89: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:27 pm
—
Ooh when I was in LA recently, my car hire was upgraded, I got free coffee twice in Starbucks, in Urban Outfitters I got a free necklace and I got into a couple of clubs without paying all on the strength of my Englishness Very Happy

Completely OT and just showing off really, lol

#90: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:29 pm
—
A local turn of phrase is "I aren't" instead of "I'm not". This used to grate on me incredibly when I first moved here and I really wanted to correct people. I have therefore been horrified to find myself using it recently - "I aren't doing it!" sounds particularly outraged if one is asked to do something unreasonable.

#91: Author: Lorna, Location: Birmingham, England

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:53 pm
—
A strange one in the Black Country is 'I bay' translated to mean 'I didn't' or 'it bay' as in it isn't. A local play on words being 'It bay a bay' to describe a window.

Supposedly the black country dialect (Yam Yam - see Wiki) is the closest remaining to Shakespearian English.

#92: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:41 pm
—

Lisa A. wrote:

A local turn of phrase is "I aren't" instead of "I'm not". This used to grate on me incredibly when I first moved here and I really wanted to correct people. I have therefore been horrified to find myself using it recently - "I aren't doing it!" sounds particularly outraged if one is asked to do something unreasonable.

A great many people at my work use the past tense incorrectly. None of them are yokels although possibly they are all from the socio-economic group that doesn't aspire to further education. Anyway it drives me up the wall although I'm too timid to say anything for fear of being called a snob. Basically instead of saying, for example, "I'd gone to the shops" they'll say "I'd went to the shops" or instead of "I'd taken the letter" it will be "I'd took the letter"etc etc etc. I don't know what this particular grammatical error is called but it really grates on me. Crying or Very sad

I've never heard it used much until I started work at this particular office and I sometimes wonder if the usage is infectious. Anyway the people who do this are from Edinburgh, Midlothian and East Lothian for the most part.

#93: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:42 pm
—
Sounds like normal Edinburgh to me...

Examples are:
I/he/she seen a film.
I've took all my holidays.
So-and-so's went home.

Most of the people I know talk like this, actually I thought people did it in most of Scotland! I know it's wrong but it's just habit and I was never really brought up to believe that 'speaking correctly' was important, though I was always expected to be polite. Miss Annersley would have had her work cut out with me, I can tell you!

#94: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:19 pm
—
That's fairly Northern Ireland, too "I'd went".... Although I'm "as English as they make them", to quote EBD (although I believe I'm actually part-Scottish), I've been married to an Ulsterman for the best part of 30 years and have adopted some of his expressions!

#95: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:36 am
—

Lorna wrote:

A strange one in the Black Country is 'I bay' translated to mean 'I didn't' or 'it bay' as in it isn't. A local play on words being 'It bay a bay' to describe a window.

That's interesting - it's very close to a dialect elsewhere in the country which uses "bayn't". Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the Bristol one or if it's actually Suffolk in and around Bury st Edmunds... Embarassed

On a slight tangent, my grandmother was a Manchester girl and she moved from there to Ipswich when she was in her late teens/early 20s which did lead to a few difficulties with the local accent. The story of their first trip to the butcher's shop's been told to me on several occasions: She and her mother walked in, their dog on a lead with them, and proceeded to order the meat they needed. The butcher, seeing the dog said to them, "Do you want a bun for the dog?" My grandmother and her mother looked at each other and basically went "What?!" so the butcher repeated it and picked up a lamb leg bone. "A bun," he said, waving the bone. "Do you want one for the dog?"...!

Lastly, about twenty or thirty years later, a friend of my grandparents was a primary school teacher in Bury St Edmunds and it pleased her, on one occasion, to set her class a writing exercise about hedgehogs. (No, I don't know why hedgehogs!) The instructions were (I think) to try and write three sentences about hedgehogs and the class were to ask if they needed any words spelt. Small boy stuck his hand up and the following exchange took place:
"Please miss, how do you spell 'sin'?"
"Sin? What's that got to do with hedgehogs?"
"Well, Oi have sin a hedgehog, miss."

Ray *who thinks the Suffolk accent has some entertaining possibilities*

#96: Author: Lorna, Location: Birmingham, England

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:52 am
—

Ray wrote:

"Well, Oi have sin a hedgehog, miss."

A couple of the children in my class have actually reverted to spelling 'I' as 'oy' because of their regional accents. A fact that as you may imagine really pleases me when their SATs are in two weeks.

#97: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:17 pm
—

Loryat wrote:

Sounds like normal Edinburgh to me...

Examples are:
I/he/she seen a film.
I've took all my holidays.
So-and-so's went home.

Most of the people I know talk like this, actually I thought people did it in most of Scotland! I know it's wrong but it's just habit and I was never really brought up to believe that 'speaking correctly' was important, though I was always expected to be polite. Miss Annersley would have had her work cut out with me, I can tell you!

I think you're probably right and it is common enough. It's just that I'd never encountered it at all before working in this particular organisation. Growing up in Fife I picked up all sorts of weird and wonderful turns of phrase but oddly enough that specific "error" doesn't seem to feature there. Maybe I've just had a sheltered life up till now. Sad

#98: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:40 am
—
To me, so many of those are a lengthening of what I might say. For example I might go for something like "I took all my holidays". Or I don't know. It looks odd written! Maybe I would go for I've taken...

#99: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:10 am
—

Squirrel wrote: To me, so many of those are a lengthening of what I might say. For example I might go for something like "I took all my holidays". Or I don't know. It looks odd written! Maybe I would go for I've taken...

Grammatically, I think

I took all my holidays

or

I have taken all my holidays

would be considered correct, although I can't remember the names of the different tenses. Embarassed

However

I have took all my holidays

is a mix of the two.

#100: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:30 am
—
Hmmmm - I think that if I was to respond to that, I'd probably reply with "you've taken them have you?" That is certainly how I would respond to a three year old anyway!

#101: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:16 pm
—
The posts that came after this have been moved to this thread - "Names for things" so if you want to keep contributing to that strain of debate you can do so there Very Happy

The CBB -> Anything Else

output generated using printer-friendly topic mod.

All times are GMT

Page 1 of 1