The CBB :: View topic - Josette's accident

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#1: Josette's accident Author: Rob, Location: Currently in a rainstorm

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:20 am
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Have just been re-reading Gay and was left wondering the following:

In Highland Twins and Lavender Sybil is about 10/11 years old and a member of lower second. So why is she not at school when Madge introduces Miss Bubb and subsequently gets the call about Josettes accident? Surely even if she was a weekly boarder she would have been at school for Guides/Brownies and so that she was present to meet the new headmistress?

Secondly assuming that Lady Russell did for some reason leave Sybil and Josette at home, presumably they were left in the charge of Marie/Rosa/Sir James, rather than being home alone? So what exactly was the (apparently blameless) person who was supposed to be responsible for them doing whilst Sybs was playing with a kettle of boiling water?

#2: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:42 am
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It says that Rosa was there but out doing things and didn't hear the cries.

Quote:

Josette's really very rotten. It's a nasty scald, poor baby - all over her tummy, and down one leg. I know they're anxious about her. I should think this will teach young Sybil to be a little less cocksure in future. Auntie says she is very sorry; but Uncle won't let Sybs go home till half-term. If she hadn't been messing about with the kettle, Josette couldn't have run into her, and then it wouldn't have got spilt. Rosa wasn't here - she was in the poultry-yard - and Sybil had no more sense than to drag Josette up to the bathroom, and take her clothes off, one by one. By the time she'd finished, her vest was sticking to her, and Sybs just yanked it off - and half the skin with it. If it hadn't been for that, she wouldn't have been so bad. It's all Sybil's fault.

So it's not the fault of the adult who was supposed to be minding the eight year old and the four year old but left them in the kitchen with a boiling kettle, too far away to hear the screams of a badly injured child, rather it's the fault of the eight year old for fooling around with the kettle (which she shouldn't have been doing), and for having the audacity to not know the correct first aid for scalds. But mainly it's Sybil's fault because she was vain and quick tempered.

#3: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:13 am
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I really thought it was awful the way Sybil got the blame for that. It was an accident, after all - even if Rosa'd been in the house, you can't watch children all the time and accidents do happen. We're told that just before Josette's accident David'd broken his arm falling out of a tree, but no-one seemed to blame anyone for that. EBD just seemed to have it in for Sybil Shocked

#4: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:05 am
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I always thought so too. In Tirol it wasn't so bad. Yes she and Rix used to fight and she would say David and me belong but that was in reponse to Rix's bossiness and trying to hold her own with an older, bossier cousin. Then in England she seems to become vain and quick tempered. That accident seemed to truly be an accident

#5: Author: RoseCloke, Location: In my pretty box-like room

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:08 pm
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I could understand the Russells blaming Sybil at the time (because if Josette really was that ill, it would be natural to find a 'black sheep' to take the blame, and they must have been under a lot of emotional strain).

The part that I couldn't understand (and still don't) was how often people referred to the incident years later. Sometimes it's immediate family mentioning it, sometimes it's other relatives or (I think) Mary Lou, who mentions it once or twice. If Sybil was truly remorseful and became a reformed character (which, arguably, she did) then I don't see the point in dragging up an obviously painful episode from the past.

#6: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:59 pm
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I've always felt that Sybil was the second generation's Grizel. EBD just couldn't be satisfied until the poor girl had been ground down to feeling ashamed of her own beauty. I do wonder if it was jealousy on EBD's part, and on Jo's.

And since Jo is supposed to be very sensitive to other people's feelings, why did she never let Sybil forget the scalding? Hadn't the poor girl suffered enough? Towards the end of the series, it seemed as if EBD couldn't be vindictive enough towards her.

#7: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:34 pm
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I thought it was a handy plot device, parroted throughout the series sans cesse to minimise the confusion for those reading out of order and explain why Sybil changed from brat child to lovely helpful daughter.

#8: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:02 pm
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I agree, Mia. Also, my impression of the kettle incident is that Sybil's the one who can't forget it - Joey tells her not to think about it again (I think in Peggy) and Sybil says she can't do that but she'll try not to get upset over it. I really like Sybil as an older girl and I think it was good that EBD gave us a Russell girl who wasn't (at least originally) perfect.

As regards the accident itself - well, presumably Josette and Sybil weren't left in the kitchen or told to play with the kettle. That they were doing so was Sybil's fault as presumably it wasn't Josette who wanted to play with kettles. My mum's a nurse and knows about the damage boiling water can do. From a very early age we were made to be aware of the dangers of hot water etc. I wasn't even allowed to touch the kettle and I bet Sybil wouldn't have been either (if she was real lol). So Josette's accident comes about as a result of Sybil playing with the kettle and not making sure Josette was out of the way (another thing we had well drummed into us as children - if you've got hot water, even just a wee cup of tea, make sure there's no kids about to run into you). I can completely understand Jem's fury.

#9: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:38 pm
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Up to a point, yes - but I have nieces and nephews with ages ranging from 20 months to ten. Three of them would fit Sybil and Josette's ages, (four year old twins - boy and girl, and eight year old niece). I can quite easily envisage a scenario where Sophie might, through disobedience and thoughtlessness, admittedly, injure Hannah because Hannah is forever following her big sister and trying to do the same things.

What I can't envisage is Sophie being blamed for not knowing the correct first aid, nor can I envisage that they would be left so severely on their own that she'd have the opportunity to drag a screaming four year old up stairs and peel off all her clothes.

#10: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:28 pm
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Lesley wrote:

I can quite easily envisage a scenario where Sophie might, through disobedience and thoughtlessness, admittedly, injure Hannah because Hannah is forever following her big sister and trying to do the same things.

Exactly - small children are sometimes disobedient and thoughtless. It's a very unusual and unnatural child who never disobeys or makes a mistake, in my opinion, and it's unrealistic to expect it. It's the responsibility of the adults to make sure that children aren't able to get into situations where disobedience or thoughtlessness can put them in danger. Inevitably sometimes things go wrong and there are accidents, but it's unfair to blame the child for normal childish behaviour.

#11: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:35 am
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Does it specifically say it happened in the kitchen? For some reason I'd always assumed it was the nursery kettle and near to the bathroom.

#12: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:49 am
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It doesn't actually say it, but it's implied. This is Daisy:

Quote:

Auntie says she is very sorry; but Uncle won’t let Sybs go home till half-term. If she hadn’t been messing about with the kettle, Josette couldn’t have run into her, and then it wouldn’t have got spilt. Josette stood on Sybil’s foot, and she shrieked and dropped the kettle. It fell on the poor baby, against her chest, and upset all down her tummy. Rosa wasn’t here – she was in the poultry-yard – and Sybil had no more sense than to drag Josette up to the bathroom, and take her clothes off, one by one. By the time she’d finished, her vest was sticking to her, and Sybs just yanked it off – and half the skin with it. If it hadn’t been for that, she wouldn’t have been so bad. It’s all Sybil’s fault.

#13: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:29 pm
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Mind you, Daisy does have issues with Sybil. And she's been highly critical of her before this happens.

Did none of them understand that Sybil needed love and reassurance, not criticism?

Actually, looking back on my own childhood, it was terrible in retrospect, the way any adult seemed to assume that they were free to say the most appallingly critical things to your face, and get away with it, almost as if they were doing their duty.

#14: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:14 pm
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Quote:

Did none of them understand that Sybil needed love and reassurance, not criticism?

Matey seems to have been the only person to consider Sybil, and then it seems to have been her physical health rather than her emotional wellbeing she was concerned about. Miss Wilson asks:

Quote:

'How has it affected Sybil? Jo told me she was to blame.’
‘I’ve never known any child so subdued in my life. The doctor was furious with her. For some days he wouldn’t go near her or speak to her, and Madame couldn’t, of course. She wouldn’t leave Josette. The poor child nearly cried herself ill. I sent for her father in the end and told him plainly that if he didn’t do something about it, he’d had another invalid in the family. So he came over to see her, by which time she’d fretted herself into a fever. Her temp. was 103 degrees when I took it, and I’d put her to bed. He forgave her on the spot, and talked very sweetly to her. I think she’s learnt a lesson that will last her for life. She’s a different girl now.’

#15: Author: Rob, Location: Currently in a rainstorm

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:05 pm
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Jennie wrote:

Did none of them understand that Sybil needed love and reassurance, not criticism?

JayB wrote:

Matey seems to have been the only person to consider Sybil

IIRC in later books doesn't Joey say that she was the only one to feel sorry for Sybs/to worry about Sybs directly after the accident. Possibly even specifying that Madge and Jem didn't?

*Rob - may have made all this up?!*

Does anyone wonder what it was that Rosa was up to in the poultry yard that was that engrossing it meant she was away sooo long and didn't hear, that Sybil had spilt boiling water over Josette and then taken her screaming upstairs to the bathroom before she returned? Confused

*Rob - mind firmly in the gutter on this one!*

ETA: Maybe it was just a long way? Laughing

#16: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:29 pm
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Good point Rob - doesn't Rosa ever learn? Wasn't she the one who allowed Sybil to be kidnapped?

#17: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:52 am
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Joey does indeed claim - in Peggy - that she felt very sorry for Sybil over the accident.

Joey however is one of those people who remembers things how it suits her too, like in Future when she tells Irma Ankoczy that Madge - who was overjoyed when the triplets were born - was furious that Joey caught up with her so quickly in terms of numbers of kids! She never had a good word to say for Sybil before Jo To The Rescue (edited to put the right name because I always muddle the holiday books up Embarassed

).

In Rosa's defence, she was obviously supposed to be responsible for the poultry as well as the kids, and you shouldn't need to watch a kid of 8 or 9 all the time but accidents happen. And in Tyrol she was a young girl responsible for 2 Russell children, 4 Bettany children, Primula and possibly also Robin.

Last edited by Alison H on Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

#18: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:26 am
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Alison H wrote:

Joey however is one of those people who remembers things how it suits her too, like in Future when she tells Irma Ankoczy that Madge - who was overjoyed when the triplets were born - was furious that Joey caught up with her so quickly in terms of numbers of kids! She never had a good word to say for Sybil before Joey and co.

In Joey's defence I think that was said as a joke and that Madge wasn't actually furious except in a jokey (sp?) way.

She does seem to have a selective memory though, and I agree about her attitude toward Sybil - although she was very kind toward her and tried to stop Sybil from worrying - it always seemed to be that she couldn't help referring to the accident and reminding Sybil that she was at fault.

#19: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:05 pm
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That's what annoyed me so much, the constant mentioning of it. It was equally Josette's fault for running into Sybil, and Rosa ought to have made sure the girls weren't in the kitchen before she went into the poultry yard.

In fact, Jo reminds me of a woman, who, seeing that I was upset, asked me why, then when I told her it was because my cat, Timmy, had had to be put down, told me she knew how I felt, then described her dog's last illness and death in excruciating detail. If she'd known how I felt, she'd have kept quiet.

#20: Author: La Petite Em, Location: Cheltenham

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:29 pm
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Alison H wrote:

Joey does indeed claim - in Peggy - that she felt very sorry for Sybil over the accident.

Joey however is one of those people who remembers things how it suits her too...

Also, doesn't she claim to have invented 'Plato' when it was Margia?

#21: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:39 pm
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Jennie wrote:

That's what annoyed me so much, the constant mentioning of it. It was equally Josette's fault for running into Sybil, and Rosa ought to have made sure the girls weren't in the kitchen before she went into the poultry yard.

I don't think you can really blame a baby for running into someone. Also my take on the accident is that Sybil went into the kitchen though she knew she shouldn't, rather than being left there.

As regards the First Aid, I always got the impression that Daisy means Sybil should have run for an adult rather than trying to deal with the situation herself. Does the taking of Josette to the bathroom also imply that Sybil was possibly trying to prevent the accident from becoming common knowledge by dealing with it herself? (Obviously, she didn't realise how serious it was). Otherwise she would have just stripped Josette in the kitchen.

Quote:

Also, doesn't she claim to have invented 'Plato' when it was Margia?

People, I don't think we should blame Joey for that! IMO that's just an EBDism. Since Joey did invent just about every other teacher's nickname, it's not surprising EBD forgot that she hadn't invented this one.

#22: Author: Rob, Location: Currently in a rainstorm

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:13 pm
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Some interesting points Loryat, however to play devils advocate ...

Loryat wrote:

Also my take on the accident is that Sybil went into the kitchen though she knew she shouldn't, rather than being left there.

Perhaps a question which should have been asked (although as far as I am aware the reader never hears that it has been) is what Sybs was doing with the kettle. Was she playing 'house'? Had Rosa foolishly left the kettle on the stove whilst she went down to the poultry yard? Was Sybs trying to be grown up and to make tea for herself/Josette/ready for Mummy coming home? Admittedly she shouldn't have had the kettle however were her motives as wrong as her actions?

Loryat wrote:

I don't think you can really blame a baby for running into someone.

Maybe not. However was Josette every asked why she bumped into Sybil/stood on her foot? Was it merely an accident or was it a display of anger/temper - had Sybil perhaps just told her that she (Josette) wasn't old enough to play with the kettle? (This may seem far fetched however it wouldn't be if you imagine the child was Margot Maynard rather than Josette, so ...)

Loryat wrote:

As regards the First Aid, I always got the impression that Daisy means Sybil should have run for an adult rather than trying to deal with the situation herself.

Quite possibly. However Rosa, who was seems to have been the only adult around, was outside in the poultry yard (which, as we have previously discussed, was presumably too far from the house for her to hear Josette's screams) so would Sybil really have thought this the best option, or at 10 would she have considered it best to be responsible herself? After all how many times in the books do the girls consult the class 'doctors daughter' regarding what the best treatment in a given situation is, rather than going to Matey (although admittedly those situations are not as serious as this!)

*Rob - may have thought about this more than EBD ever did!*

#23: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:08 pm
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I think Sybil probably took Josette to the bathroom with the intention of getting her into a cold bath, thinking that that was the best way of helping, and just didn't realise what'd happen when she took Josette's clothes off.

It would've been better to've got Rosa, but it's easy to panic when there's been an accident and she probably thought that the sooner she tried to do something about the burns the better.

Just for comparison, I always feel a little sorry for Emerence in that no-one ever points out that she wouldn't've hit Mary-Lou had Mary-Lou not been running after her - in an area which Mlle de Lachennais had told them to avoid - and yelling instructions at her, even though she was trying to help. Likewise with Grizel feeling guilty when Joey chased up the Tiernjoch after her instead of having the sense to get someone like Herr Marani to go instead.

#24: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:17 pm
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I think it's interesting how we all agonise over this issue. Also why did EBD never give us more information? Unless there are extra bits added in the hardback, there's very little to go on. All we know is that it's 'Sybil's fault' and that it involved a kettle.

Rob, I have wondered what Sybil was doing with the kettle. Playing house etc sound possible. But given Sybil's character at this point in the story, I am willing to believe she was being disobedient - playing with the kettle when she had been told to leave it alone, for example.

I don't think it's ever said why Josette ran into Sybil. My take is that she was just running about, the way small kids do. It's never suggested that she was misbehaving out of temper.

The doctor's daughter thing is a good point (the daughters all seem to learn things through osmosis, as well - eg learning that yawning=liver trouble???). It's possible that Sybil (clearly not realising the seriousness of the situation) was attempting to deal with things by herself in a responsible way. However given that Josette would be screaming, etc, I don't think Sybil should have considered that and I do feel that she was partly motivated by a fear of getting caught. In Highland Twins, Nancy has to deal with Fiona's slapped cheek because the girls don't want the mistresses to see her.

I actually like the later Sybil, but young Sybil sounds like a total brat, not that we see much of her. Like so many CS girls, she is Reformed After A Serious Accident. IMO, EBD gives her a much easier time of reforming than Margot, who time and time again reforms only to commit yet another horrendous act in the next book.

#25: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:31 pm
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Perhaps, but Sybil is never allowed to forget what she did - which, even if it was disobeidience - was an accident - she didn't deliberately pour the water over Josette.

With Margot - she deliberately conspired to force a girl to stop being friends with her sisters and threatened to blackmail her. She also, in a fit of temper, deliberately threw a bookend at another girl's head and,m when Games Prefect, lost her temper so throughly with a girl she caused her to injure another in a hockey game. Yet by the end of the series we are expected (by EBD) to admire her for finally managing to control her temper.

#26: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:01 am
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Loryat wrote:

I think it's interesting how we all agonise over this issue. Also why did EBD never give us more information? Unless there are extra bits added in the hardback, there's very little to go on. All we know is that it's 'Sybil's fault' and that it involved a kettle.

This is everything we get told about it in Gay:

Josette, who is four years old at this point, is due to start the babies class the week after the Chalet School begins the new term (which at least explains why she is home).

I have put what I see as the major points in bold.

Quote:

In the meantime, I’m just putting up a notice for my sister. She was rung up when she left the room and had to fly. Josette has upset a kettle of boiling water over herself, so my sister fled. She wrote the notice out before she left, and gave it to me. Go and look at the board. Come on, Jacynth. Go and get your things on, and tell Gay to do likewise. I’m off to collect the rest of the crowd.’ And Mrs Maynard turned and sped from the room, followed by a throng of girls, all eager to see the notice-board.
Jacynth followed, but she raced upstairs to find Gay and tell her to get ready. She found that young lady still in gym knickers, with her frock in one hand, holding forth to the rest, who were not much further on.
‘If that’s what we’ve got to put up with till the Head comes back, all I can say is that most of us look like having a thin time of it!’ she was proclaiming. ‘Beth! You’ve said nothing. What do you think about it?’
‘Nothing – as yet,’ replied Beth, who was tying the big bow at the nape of her neck. ‘You folk had better hurry up and get dressed. We don’t know what comes next. Didn’t Madame say she wanted to see us again?’
‘She’s had to go because Josette had scalded herself,’ said Jacynth.
The girls jumped. They had not noticed her entrance. ‘Did you say Josette has scalded herself?’ demanded Daisy. ‘Oh, poor Auntie Madge! That’s the second accident in the family since Easter. David fell out of a tree and broke his collar-bone. He’s not going back to school till it’s properly knit. If Josette’s scalded, she’ll have a bad time.’

Quote:

‘Perhaps Madame will do something about it,’ suggested Gillian.
‘They won’t want to worry her. Josette is quite bad; it was a nasty scald, poor kiddy, and no one will want to bother her if they can help it.’

Quote:

‘Not here!’ There was finality in Daisy’s tone as she spoke. ‘The final court of appeal is my Aunt Madge. Only, I don’t want to bother her if we can help it. Josette’s really very rotten. It’s a nasty scald, poor baby – all over her tummy, and down one leg. I know they’re anxious about her. I should think this will teach young Sybil to be a little less cocksure in future. Auntie says she is very sorry; but Uncle won’t let Sybs go home till half-term. If she hadn’t been messing about with the kettle, Josette couldn’t have run into her, and then it wouldn’t have got spilt. Josette stood on Sybil’s foot, and she shrieked and dropped the kettle. It fell on the poor baby, against her chest, and upset all down her tummy. Rosa wasn’t here – she was in the poultry-yard – and Sybil had no more sense than to drag Josette up to the bathroom, and take her clothes off, one by one. By the time she’d finished, her vest was sticking to her, and Sybs just yanked it off – and half the skin with it. If it hadn’t been for that, she wouldn’t have been so bad. It’s all Sybil’s fault.’
‘Then I’m sorry for Sybil,’ said Janet soberly. ‘It must be awful for her to know that she’s caused her little sister so much pain.’
‘Oh, it’s upset her. She isn’t like herself just now at all,’ said Daisy. ‘And Uncle Jem being so furious about it makes it a lot worse. He doesn’t usually lose his wool over things. If there’s any ticking-off done in that family, it’s generally Auntie Madge who has to do it.’

Quote:

They would let Lady Russell know, but her youngest little girl, who is called Josette, has had a dreadful accident. Sybil, her eldest girl, upset a kettle of water over Josette somehow. Sybil is dreadfully miserable about it. I am so sorry for her.

Quote:

But if ever Madge made a mistake in her lift, she’s done it now! And we can’t bother her at the moment. Josette is a shade better, poor kiddy. They think the scalds are going on well; but the shock has been very bad, and she’s still frighteningly weak. Jem says that if she weathers another week she’ll pull through. And for it to happen now, when we wanted Madge to be as free from worry as possible! I think Sybil has had the lesson of her life. I was raging when I heard what she’d done; but no one could keep on, she’s such a poor little bundle of misery. Even Jem – and he was wild with her for days – has had to come round and forgive her. Madge, needless to state, did so almost at once. And that made Sybs weep harder. She’s had a bad time of it.

Quote:

‘Jem has just rung me up. Josette is stronger again. Her heart is steadier, and though he refuses to say anything definite, he has better hope of her now. But they’ve very nearly lost her. You can see why we’ve all studiously refrained from troubling Madge about school affairs.

Quote:

‘Had Josette been so ill? Jo told me about the accident, and she said she was rather badly hurt; but she never told me there was any real danger.’
‘She’s safe now, thank God! But they’ve nearly lost her. However, she is coming round at last. I saw her yesterday, poor mite. She’s shrunk to a mere scrap, and her poor little face looks all eyes. I could have cried to see her.’ And Matron, who was famed for a lack of sentiment, blew her nose fiercely.
‘She’ll soon make that up. Mercifully, children are as quickly up as they are down. How has it affected Sybil? Jo told me she was to blame.’
‘I’ve never known any child so subdued in my life. The doctor was furious with her. For some days he wouldn’t go near her or speak to her, and Madame couldn’t, of course. She wouldn’t leave Josette. The poor child nearly cried herself ill. I sent for her father in the end and told him plainly that if he didn’t do something about it, he’d had another invalid in the family. So he came over to see her, by which time she’d fretted herself into a fever. Her temp. was 103 degrees when I took it, and I’d put her to bed. He forgave her on the spot, and talked very sweetly to her. I think she’s learnt a lesson that will last her for life. She’s a different girl now.’
‘I see. Well, I shan’t say anything to her, of course. I’m thankful the baby is safe. Poor Madge! It’s been bad for her.’

Quote:

‘Good morning, Miss Bubb,’ she said. ‘Will you sit down? Have you had your elevenses? No? Then coffee, please, Rosa,’ to Marie’s younger sister, who was the Russells’ nanny and who had accompanied her to carry little Josette and lay her on a wide settee in a far window. ‘I am sorry,’ continued Lady Russell, ‘but Josette wants to be with me, and just at present we are obliged to spoil her, I’m afraid. – Josette, say “How do you do?” to Miss Bubb, pet.’
Miss Bubb looked at the child. Josette had her mother’s black curls and cameo-like features; but her eyes were speedwell-blue. She was very white and thin, poor mite, and there were still marks of suffering on her little face. The tiny hand she held out was clawlike, and Miss Bubb, after greeting her, said to her mother in an undertone, ‘How ill she still looks! I am afraid she has had a time. I had no idea it was such a serious thing.’
‘Oh, she’s much better now,’ said Madge Russell quickly. ‘Of course, she was in a grave condition for some days, and the shock upset her heart. But she is much better now – well on the highroad to recovery. The doctors all say that in a year or so she will be as well as ever. But in the meantime we have to go slowly. No school of her for another year no!’
Josette, satisfied that she was with her mother, had picked up a picture-book and was looking at the pictures, and the low voices of the two ladies at the far side of the room could not reach her.
Miss Bubb turned away, and looked out of the window. Somehow, seeing that fragile-looking small child made her feel as if she could not say nay of the very spiteful things she had planned to say on the way up to the Round House. She also suddenly felt something of what the parents must have suffered in Josette’s accident.
‘How can you ever forgive Sybil?’ she burst out. ‘I should hate the very sight of her!’
‘Oh, no, you wouldn’t,’ returned Sybil’s mother confidently. ‘She’s just as much our girl as Josette is. She meant no harm to her little sister, and if it had been only an accident, even my husband would not have been angry with her. She has broken her heart over the whole thing, poor little maid. The trouble was that she deliberately disobeyed an order, and our poor baby has had to pay for it physically. I think Sybil has paid quite heavily enough mentally.’

#27: Author: Lyanne, Location: Ipswich, England

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:50 am
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It was a dreadful thing to happen, but my children knew by the age of 4 not run come near people with a kettle.

Now, I will admit that Aaron (who is just 4) still comes near me when I have a kettle, luckily I have the height & the maturity to put it down safely and move him away. But Aaron's a looney child & Josette is a good girl, living in a era when hot water did often come from kettles rather than the hot tap.

Given that Rosa quite likely has no first aid training & certainly not what we would do now (butter on burns, anyone?) I've always thought that ROsa might have dealt with the accident as Sybil did.

#28: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:44 pm
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Lyanne wrote:

Given that Rosa quite likely has no first aid training & certainly not what we would do now (butter on burns, anyone?) I've always thought that ROsa might have dealt with the accident as Sybil did.

Surely Rosa, living in the house of a great surgeon like Sir James Russell, would have learned the latest first aid techniques to keep the children under her care safe!! Shocked

#29: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:49 pm
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Not necessarily - Jem was a TB specialist, not a burns specialist. And many doctors and nurses, even today, are extraordinarily bad at First Aid. Also the idea of putting butter on burns had definitely not faded from memory at that time - my parents, born 1937 and 1939 can still remember their grandparents advocating it - and as Rosa was a young Tyrolean peasant girl it's likely that she had been taught that method by her grandparents.

For an eight/nine/ten year (whatever she was! Rolling Eyes

) Sybil probably did no less than the vast majority of people would have done, which was attempt to remove the clothing that was, as she thought, burning her sister. Incidentally had it been present day and Josette wearing something like a shell suit then Sybil would have been praised - this material keeps burning even if doused in water. Even if Sybil had been taught the correct first aid in such circumstances, expecting her to remember it when it's her sister that's burning, that she knows she's to blame and there is no adult near enough to hear Josette's screams or stop Sybil dragging her upstairs and removing her clothes is totally unbelieveable.

#30: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:55 pm
—
Given that 1970s first aid instructors still felt the need to campaign against butter on burns, I'd say that bit of folk medicine was still alive and kicking in EBD's time. Just out of interest, what IS the correct first aid? I'd say, douse her with cold water ASAP, but my training isn't all that up-to-date, and I'd expect Sybil would still run her to the bathroom first out of fear of making a mess in the kitchen and because it would be easier to get full coverage in a bathtub.

I really don't remember what they did in the 50s when I pulled the coffee pot over myself -- just long term bandaging with gauze and ointment afterwards, and a ban on tablecloths. (Coffee pot on table with cloth isn't the best idea around toddlers....)

I also never thought leaving an 8-year-old to watch a 4-year-old while the supervising adult was reasonably nearby terribly odd. It was normal in my neighborhood.

#31: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:15 pm
—
AFAIK correct first aid is to get into cold water asap.

My mum had a bad scald as a kid - and her mum put butter on it Shocked

. I doubt the doctor was very impressed when presented with a pre-fried little kid. When by brother dumped boiling soup over himself as a kid she chucked him immediately in a bath, and there was no long-term damage.

#32: Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:17 pm
—
I was talking to one of my friends from work the other day and it turns out that when he was 1, he managed to knock a kettle of boiling water over himself and now has a scar all the way down his left shoulder and arm. He doesn't remember a thing about it and so I felt less bad about making the CS connection than I would have otherwise.

#33: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
—
I remember reading in an Elizabeth Jane Howard novel - one of the Cazalet quartet - which was set in the 1940s, of a scald being treated, at home, by hot parafin wax on the burn. It sounds more painful than the original scald.

#34: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:22 pm
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I thought it was interesting that, in Sue Barton: Rural Nurse, which was published first in 1939, she advises the application of cold tea to burns. While I doubt the tea itself had many useful properties, the cold water would certainly have done the trick. It would be interesting to know whether such treatment was commonplace, at least in America, or whether it was an attempt to spread this new form of treatment of burns to a wider audience.

#35: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:37 pm
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I should have thought that tea would have been better than cold water, because it would have been cleaner - being made from boiled water. I imagine the idea of putting butter on a burn was to keep any infection out - there were no antibiotics in those days to fight the infection! A scar is much better than being dead.

#36: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:29 am
—
Isn't there a reference in one of the Swiss books to Anna covering Rosli's hand in flour when she's spilled boiling jam (ouch!) on herself?

#37: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:24 am
—

Cath V-P wrote:

Isn't there a reference in one of the Swiss books to Anna covering Rosli's hand in flour when she's spilled boiling jam (ouch!) on herself?

You're right - it's in Wins the Trick:

Quote:

There was a wild shriek from the house, which brought Rösli bounding to her feet. It was followed by another and another. Rösli cast a wild look at the children. All seemed fast asleep. She turned and ran as fast as her legs would carry her to the kitchen where a distraught Anna was wringing boiling jam off one hand and an arm. There was jam everywhere and the big preserving pan had rolled into a corner and lay oozing more jam. Rösli forgot her charge. She snatched at the first handy cloth and began to wipe off the jam, Anna moaning all the time. Then she fetched the big flour bin and plunged the poor hand and arm up to the elbow in the flour.

However at least she wipes off much of the jam first, which would mean it didn't go on burning.

#38: Author: meerium, Location: belfast, northern ireland

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:32 am
—
I think the correct first aid (though it's been about 5 years since my first aid training) would be to dunk her in the bath in her clothes - it's the stripping away of the clothes that does the damage. The cold water would cool the cloth quickly enough, and once Josette soaked for 5 or 10 minutes, the clothes could be removed without doing so much damage to the skin. So Sybil had the right idea, at any rate.

#39: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:36 am
—

meerium wrote:

I think the correct first aid (though it's been about 5 years since my first aid training) would be to dunk her in the bath in her clothes - it's the stripping away of the clothes that does the damage. The cold water would cool the cloth quickly enough, and once Josette soaked for 5 or 10 minutes, the clothes could be removed without doing so much damage to the skin.

Nooo, this could cause the person to go into major shock. You're supposed to apply cold water, keep the burn/scald uncovered and remove any clothing that isn't stuck to the burn/scald and phone an ambulance, asap, hopefully you wouldn't be waiting for 5-10 minutes.

*Red Cross First Aider*

#40: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:32 am
—
When I was at catering college 1978-81 we were told the following:

Burns/scalds/cuts - hold under cold running water

BUT

for boiling jam - plunge into the flour bin

At the time I thought it was very CS

I can remember one girl on the bakery course pouring boiling jam over herself and we were told by the lecturers that it was ok as she was near the flour bin and able to get her arm in quickly.

#41: Author: Lexi, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:26 am
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How does putting it in flour help though?

*probably being very dense*

#42: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:55 am
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I honestly thought you were joking Dawn, until you said it was very CS! I don’t get the flour bin idea at all. Flour’s not a good conductor of heat like water is.

#43: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:39 pm
—
What was Sybil supposed to do? What would have been the accepted firat aid at the time? I'm sure cold water would not have come into it, and if they really thought butter was the answer, how could Sybil or anyone apply it without taking off Josette's clothe first. I suppose an adult would cut off the child's clothes, but that would be a difficult decision for a girl of Sybil's age.

#44: Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:06 pm
—
My old cleaner always used to say that you should put a bit of bleach on a burn...

#45: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:09 pm
—
I was thinking about this on the train home tonight. Basically I think Sybil was seen to be in the wrong because when the accident happened she didn't alert an adult (one could argue that she could have run for Rosa) but instead she dragged Josette upstairs and tried to deal with it herself.

I imagine it as if by taking Josette away and pulling her clothes off, etc, she was trying to cover up what she'd done, because she'd disobeyed in the first place, and made the situation worse and Josette more ill; and that was why they were so hard on her. Does that make sense?

#46: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:12 pm
—

KathrynW wrote:

My old cleaner always used to say that you should put a bit of bleach on a burn...

Sorry to spree, but OMG! Owww. I'm terrified of needing to have first aid at any time because people just don't know what to do. I once had to stop some people putting a motorcyclist who had come off his bike into the recovery position (they rolled him onto a broken arm, owww!)

I'm totally behind the Red Cross's campaign to teach FA in schools.

#47: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:18 pm
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I wonder if Jem (I typed Jam at first there - mind still on earlier posts) was angry at Sybil for shaking his faith in his much admired "total obedience" system and publicly demonstrating that it didn't really work.

#48: Author: Rosalin, Location: Swansea

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:32 pm
—
Jo says that Sybil made the burn worse by taking Josette's clothes off, so they appear to have known not to do that.

In the second half of Exile they are all doing first aid classes because of the war. If those had continued while they were at Plas Howell, it's possible that Sybil could have been told what to do, as the war is still on during Gay. Although she could hardly be blamed for forgetting given the circumstances.

#49: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:33 pm
—
I think he was probably so angry because Josette nearly died, it was probably hard to be objective under those circumstances! It is an extreme situation.

#50: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:34 pm
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The paraffin wax wouldn't help the immediate burning, but it would seal the burn against infection, which would be the most immediate pre-antibiotics problem.

Another first aid tip is: after the heat has been taken out of the burn by cold water, the burn needs to be covered. Burns hurt when the nerves come into contact with nitrogen from the air. The easiest way to exclude air from the burn is cling film. Just make sure the burn has been well-watered first. After that, cling film will help take the pain away. As indeed would paraffin wax, but I would recommend cling film Cool

#51: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:42 pm
—
Basic First Aid really ought to be taught in schools, along with managing money and a lot of other things that'd be a lot more useful than some of the things we had to learn!! Actually, the older girls learnt First Aid during the War, didn't they? I seem to remember something about Biddy O'Ryan and Marjorie Burn and some others tying bandages. Shame it seemed to get dropped ... although of course it may have reduced the need for assistance from doctors ...

#52: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:23 pm
—
I have been having a look on the internet for the treatment of burns using flour. I can't immediately find anything (apart from a couple of sites saying don't do it, although they don't mention jam) but it turns out that gentian is effective - a reason for the move to Switzerland?

#53: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:33 pm
—

Rosalin wrote:

In the second half of Exile they are all doing first aid classes because of the war. If those had continued while they were at Plas Howell, it's possible that Sybil could have been told what to do, as the war is still on during Gay. Although she could hardly be blamed for forgetting given the circumstances.

It's almost certain that Sybil would have belonged to the school's Brownie Pack, so she would probably have learned First Aid there. Of course, whether she listened to what she was taught, or felt that, being Jem's daughter, she knew it all already is a whole other question.

After the Bali bombings, there was quite a bit on the news about treating burns (as Australia had just developed the spray-on 'second skin) and most experts advised not removing clothing unless it was very loose and could be taken off without pain to the patient. As burnt materials (wood, etc.) contains huge amounts of bacteria, any clothing left on forms a barrier of sorts against infection. Anything sticking to burns can be taken off by medical professionals once the patient arrives at hospital.

And it's cool, running water that is the ideal treatment for burns. Still water, such as putting the patient in a bath or even just holding a burned finger in a basin of cool water is not as effective as letting water from the tap run over it as the still water will heat up rapidly and could serve to prolong the burning under the skin.

#54: Author: averill,

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:42 am
—
Has anyone ever heard of using toothpaste on a burn?

I was 8 when, trying to iron a doll's dress and having propped up the iron not too carefully, had it fall over my arm leaving a nice imprint of 1/2 the iron, lengthwise, on my arm from my wrist almost up to the elbow.

I don't remember whether I though I would get in trouble for it but I didn't tell anyone. I turned the iron off and unplugged it, then ran to the bathroom and ran cold water over my arm for a long time (maybe 10-15 min). Then having seen adults use both butter and toothpaste on a friend's nanny when she burned her hand with the oven at New Year's Eve dinner (and not wanting to alert my mother who was in the kitchen) I smeared toothpaste all over the burn.

This was probably not proper first aid but it worked at the time. It turned out to be a second degree burn near my wrist, blisters and all, decreasing severity up along the rest of my arm. I kept it bandaged with gauze and wore long sleeves and no one knew until a few weeks later.

The scar has mostly faded after 25 years but I can still see a bit of it where the worst part of the burn was.

I didn't start reading Chalet books until I was 10 or 11 and had lots of sympathy for both Sybil and Josette over this incident.

#55: Author: andi, Location: London

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:35 pm
—
My mother swears by toothpaste for burns. (But then she is a dentist, so possibly biased) Very Happy

I've always vaguely assumed it had something to do with there being bicarb in the toothpaste, although come to think of it I don't actually know why that would help. Will stop waffling now!

#56: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:21 pm
—
Goodness, I quite thought that EBD had made it up! I wonder why flour for jam burns...

St Thomas' hospital always advocated bicarbonate of soda for burns - you see it in the novels of Lucilla Andrews, if any of those are still in print, and also someone I once knew (sadly, long since dead) who trained at Tommy's, also advocated it. I think you dissolved it in cold water, mind.... and Tommy's A & E is pretty pants about burns nowadays (far better to go straight to the Chelsea and Westminster, which I rather wish I'd done in the first place when I'd been careless and got a bad chemical burn a few years ago).

#57: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:11 pm
—
Lisa A, I thonk what they were saying was 'gentian violet' often used on major burns. wikipedia has an article about it.

#58: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:25 am
—

Mrs Redboots wrote:

Goodness, I quite thought that EBD had made it up! I wonder why flour for jam burns...

I have no idea - maybe our lecturers were secret EBD fans Shocked

the only thing I could thing of was that the flour would pull off the jam - but then surely it would take the skin with it.
And at 16 you don't think to question lecturers about possibly dodgy first aid techniques

#59: Author: *Aletea*, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:20 pm
—

Rosalin wrote:

Jo says that Sybil made the burn worse by taking Josette's clothes off, so they appear to have known not to do that.

In the second half of Exile they are all doing first aid classes because of the war. If those had continued while they were at Plas Howell, it's possible that Sybil could have been told what to do, as the war is still on during Gay. Although she could hardly be blamed for forgetting given the circumstances.

I always thought they were cross because Sybil took Josette's clothes off 'one at a time, by the time she reached her vest she yanked half the skin off'. Presumably if Sybil had taken all the clothes off immediately and then put J in the bath, or put her in the bath and left the clothes on, then there wouldn't have been the skin pulling?

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