The CBB :: View topic - Miss Jo Bettany

Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...?

but I rather like the idea of her as one of those eccentric Englishwomen (associated more with the 1920s than the 1950s, but never mind!) intrepidly travelling round the world, popping home every so often with an assortment of bizarre souvenirs from far-flung places and presents for their nieces and nephews. Maybe with Grizel as a travelling companion. And funding her trips by writing books about her experiences.

One friend who, perhaps unexpectedly, got married when already into her forties, recalls the vehemence with which Elinor exclaimed "Oh, you are so lucky."

"If she could have married, maybe there might not have been so many Chalet School books, but there would have been a contented Elinor".

The perfect job for her would obviously have been as some form of counsellor for girls with problems, but that would have been completely anachronistic for the time period.

Sunglass wrote:

That would have been a very interesting storyline, if maybe a bit sad for a series of children's books. :cry:

Sunglass wrote:
Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...?

I must admit that I for one, would have found that quite depressing. I was ten when I read Little Men and I was absolutely devestated when Meg became a widow.

I always wonder what direction EBD would have taken Joey in if not for the war. She obviously intended her to marry Jack, as there are hints in New House, and even earlier, but in Jo Returns the focus is solely on Jo as a writer, not on her potential marriage. How much time would EBD have allowed Jo to have to 'grow up' if WWII hadn't interfered?

In Camp it mentions that Jack has already made up his mind about what Joey meant to him but time would tell etc... which is a wee bit icky IMO considering Joey is seventeen (sixteen?) and still at school, but different times and all that...

I don't know why she did it either - it always upsets me

.

Just pondering (will hometime ever come today :lol:

?) ... GO relationships involving main characters seem to fall into three main categories:
1. Girl and boy meet whilst aged between, say, 10 and 15, and, sometimes after various traumas and either or both of them going off and doing other things they eventually get together. Examples - Anne Shirley and Gilbert Blythe, various characters in EJO's Swiss books, most of the characters in Lorna Hill's Wells books.
2. Older man admires girl from afar. They eventually get together once girl has grown up. Examples - Meg March and John Brooke (possibly, although there isn't that much of an age gap and Meg is not that young when they meet), Elsie Dinsmore and Whatshisface Travilla (that one makes me feel sick!), Emily of New Moon and whatever her husband was called, Jo and Jack, Len and Reg.
3. Woman and man meet, and get married about three months later. Seems to happen with an awful lot of CS people :lol:

I wonder though if she'd just have been absorbed by the school in that case and taken over English, history or language classes while being gradually pushed towards taking over as head mistress (thus bringing things full circle to mirror the beginning of the series with Madge as Head Mistress?).

I seem to remember a lot of disapproval when Anne (of Green Gables) decides she can't marry... um... whathisname. I'm trying to call him Royal Gardiner but surely I've got that wrong?

*makes mental note to re-read some Montgomery next month!*

Regarding the posts about John Brooke's death being unnecessary and not sure why it was put in; well I'm not sure why she shouldn't have put it in. The Little Women, Good wives books are semi-autobiographical and her brother-in-law died leaving her older sister with two young boys to look after so why shouldn't that end up in the books?

I never knew that, so I will forgive LMA. But for me what always annoyed me about John's death is that it's a bit of a throwaway storyline. She doesn't seem to go into it in any great depth. Maybe this was because she felt it was too painful to write, but then why write it at all?

and the wonderful scene where Father Bhaer tries to explain to the children that John wasn't a rich man, or a famous man, but he was a good man, and that was so much more important.

I had a similarly negative reaction to John Brooke's death. It just seemed gratuitous somehow.

Now Jem...

Sw1 - The Two Form Captains 1921
Sw2 - The Captain of the Fifth 1922
Sw3 - Camp Mystery (CK3) 1932
Sw4 - The Troubles of Tazy (Sx5) 1926
Sw5 - Patience and her Problems (Wd3, Sx6) 1927

“What? Oh, no! But my goodness me, that means that she has”—Gillian counted up hurriedly—“eight children!” She gazed with horror at the Head. “Why, the Trips——”
Miss Wilson nodded. “Yes; I know—ten in November. But do remember that they are triplets. She’s only had three boys since then, and all singletons, to quote herself. Michael is past two now and there are four years between him and Charles; and the girls were three when Stephen arrived. I admit that Steve is a bare fourteen months older than Charles, but apart from that, they’re well spaced.”

I thought John Brooke was the dullest creature imaginable, if admittedly loyal and decent and loving etc etc. The depictions of his and Meg's marriage in Good Wives used to make me groan with dismay, where Meg has to learn to give up her 'little vanities' and be wifely, deal with the boredom of being a housewife, and pretend an interest in the business pages of the newspaper - with no suggestion that John should try being a bit less soporifically dull in the evenings!

and the wonderful scene where Father Bhaer tries to explain to the children that John wasn't a rich man, or a famous man, but he was a good man, and that was so much more important.

Author:	Rob [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:25 am ]
Post subject:	Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Inspired by the last few posts on the “Fragile or not” thread … Alison’s view that EBD was trying to make Jo fill too many roles and ChubbyMonkey’s suggestion that the ending of Joey’s story didn’t really fit with her earlier characterisation (hope I haven’t misunderstood and misquoted either of you!) made me wonder whether Jo’s role as the advice-giving lady-author, who remained young-at-heart and was an eternal-schoolgirl would have worked better if she hadn’t got married? Or would that still have been too many roles for her to fill? Despite (or maybe because of) her own single status, EBD seems to have placed great significant on her female characters gaining a SLOC, however she does write both Hilda and Nell as (fairly) strong independent single women; writing Joey as a single woman therefore needn’t necessarily be seen as something that she simply wouldn’t write about. It is a difficult concept to imagine as Jo is married in the series for a lot longer than she is single. Jo is described as a good mother, however her youngest children were confined to the nursery and her elder boys were shipped off to school out of the way - we see very little evidence of family life when all the family are present - although admittedly the series is based at school, but a lot of evidence of her at home when just the schoolgirls are there; there are also a lot of other scenes which show her involvement with the school: writing Christmas plays, ‘mothering’ needy schoolgirls, delighting in telling of her schoolgirl past etc. I find it easier to imagine that someone who devotes as much time to the school as Joey does (even if it is in the nature of a family business) would be someone who didn’t really have many other distractions or responsibilities to divert their attention away from what was of paramount important when they were 16 or so - and certainly not a former pension to run and a family of 11! If this was what was truly important to Jo, would it have been better if she had never married Jack at all? I know a lot of people prefer Jo in the earlier books as she seems more fallible and less perfect; yet if she had remained like this throughout the series, would we perhaps be discussing how stale her character was, since she had never moved on from her schooldays (and would that be so different from now!)? Obviously, a different set of circumstances would have to have occurred post-Exile in order to keep Jo closely associated with the school, and other characters would have had to feature later on as there would be no triplets; however if Jo had remained the ‘maiden aunt’ that she always claimed she would be in the early books, would this have made it less 'awkward' when she claimed to “still be a chalet girl” at 40(ish!), than it did when she was the mother of 11?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I think Joey was allowed to remain forever a school girl because Len effectively took over the mothering role for the rest of the family and was far more responsible than Joey ever is. I think it only works with Joey married and living next door, for I don't see what excuse EBD would have with Joey living there single unless she still lived with Madge and Jem and they lived next door (and wouldn't that provide a few interesting storylines! ) EBD seems to portray Joey as extending her mothering from her family to the school and with the amount Joey has on, something would have to give and I think often it's her family. Joey is too busy helping other people to remember how much she enjoyed having her family to herself and not having to include Juliet and Grizel every single time. I do think your right, Joey had to change and grow and I don't think anyone has problem with accepting her new faults, I think people tend to struggle with the words that Joey was perfect in every way when she so clearly isn't. I think if EBD had written her as having faults and everyone being aware of them like she was as a child, then most would probably like adult Joey so much more. It's the constant, Joey is a wonderful mother and any problem is a result of the terrible children not because of bad parenting. IMO, people could forgive her faults more easily if Joey and others would acknowledge she wasn't/isn't the perfect person/mother.

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...? Not sure what kind of financial situation she would have been left in, if so, but I suppose EBD could have engineered a situation whereby Joey needed and was given some form of job at the CS, even part-time - history teacher? Singing teacher? Some form of school administrator to take the pressure off poor Rosalie Dene? The perfect job for her would obviously have been as some form of counsellor for girls with problems, but that would have been completely anachronistic for the time period. And then perhaps EBD could have had her fall in love and marry again, only I can't quite think to whom - Phil Graves? Only she clearly doesn't find him attractive, while Peter Young, with his obsession with beauty, probably wouldn't find her attractive.... (And Jem would have had enormous difficulty trying to countenance Joey marrying someone other than Jack.) It's hard to imagine adult Joey as single, because she goes pretty much from late-adolescent school leaver to married woman and mother of three in one fell swoop - we don't ever see an adult unmarried Joey. And despite the fact that EBD writes happy, strong single professionals like Hilda, Rosalie and Bill, the way in which she 'rewards' her favourite character with an adoring husband and a huge family of children suggests to me at least that she does see being single and childless as not good enough for Joey, and that consciously or unconsciously, she sees unmarried as second best. It would be very interesting, though, to see a Joey who is just as intuitive and empathetic, just as helpful and open to all claims on her attention, but who doesn't have the 'glamour' and status of being a Mother of Eleven and San Head's Wife, famous writer and chatelaine of a series of glorious houses, but is instead an never-married history mistress at the CS, who writes critically-acclaimed novels in her spare time ...? It's difficult to think about, because the suggestion from EBD seems to be that it's precisely marriage and children that have changed her from being a rather ordinary, flawed schoolgirl to being someone with unusual depths of compassion who wants to 'mother' the whole world...?

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Sunglass wrote: Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...? Ray, I think, wrote a very interesting drabble about just this scenario - further complicated by the fact that Margot, a delicate child, had also died, leaving Jo only with Len and Con.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
EBD seems reluctant in the later books to accept that any of her favourite characters had faults - that's one reason I really appreciate the part in New Mistress in which it's acknowledged that Mary-Lou, whilst she has many good qualities, could also very easily get on people's nerves. In the early books, we see Madge being taken in by Captain Carrick and making a mistake by employing Matron Webb, but in the later books Hilda seems to be infallible. The term "maiden aunt" (I'm one myself, which is rather depressing when put like that!) makes me think of little old ladies with grey hair piled up high on top of their heads and covered with lace caps. BTW. I do wonder what happened to Madge and Joey's aunts, the married ones and "dear old Mary" the maiden aunt! I can't see Joey like that, but I rather like the idea of her as one of those eccentric Englishwomen (associated more with the 1920s than the 1950s, but never mind!) intrepidly travelling round the world, popping home every so often with an assortment of bizarre souvenirs from far-flung places and presents for their nieces and nephews. Maybe with Grizel as a travelling companion. And funding her trips by writing books about her experiences. I think the problem is more that Joey is supposed to have personality traits which conflict: she's supposed to be wise and mature, unable to cope in a crisis, and an eternal schoolgirl, and that wouldn't work any better if she were single than if she were married. & I do find it rather odd that anyone, either married or single, should remain quite so involved with their old school 20 years after leaving it. Even if she'd had an official role such as chairman of the governors, popping in every five minutes, turning up at Spot Supper and repeatedly recounting tales of her schooldays would have been OTT. I know that in Joey's case the school was like a family to her, and that some of the staff were close personal friends of hers, but I still find it a bit odd! I do wonder what happened to the Bettanys' aunts and their families! And to Jem's aunts. Maybe at some point one of them could leave one of the second generation a fortune ...

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt? http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7390

Author:	Mona [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Strictly speaking, I'm a maiden aunt myself, although it never occurred to me until now. Thanks Alison Quote: but I rather like the idea of her as one of those eccentric Englishwomen (associated more with the 1920s than the 1950s, but never mind!) intrepidly travelling round the world, popping home every so often with an assortment of bizarre souvenirs from far-flung places and presents for their nieces and nephews. Maybe with Grizel as a travelling companion. And funding her trips by writing books about her experiences. This is a wonderful idea, and quite in keeping with Joey the schoolgirl. Perhaps if war hadn't intervened EBD would have been able to develop her in this direction. Of course, that would have meant her being away from the school for long periods, which probably wouldn't have worked in EBD's mind, although it would have made the near hero-worship that some of the girls seem to exhibit towards Joey more plausible.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I also wonder if EBD saw marriage as the ideal, whatever she may have said in public. I read somewhere once that EJO had intended her favourite character, Maidlin, to remain single (she was a beautiful, talented, wealthy contralto, singing mostly in oratorios, etc); but that in the end she wanted Maidlin to 'have everything'. Perhaps EBD felt the same way about Joey. Rewriting history to give her alter ego everything perhaps, in the way that I've seen it suggested that Jane Austen rewrote her sister's story in Persuasion, and gave it a happy ending? I very much liked the drabble which has a widowed Jo, with two of the Trips plus Stephen, turning up to teach at the Platz. It shed some interesting lights on her character.

Author:	JB [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Great minds, sealpuppy (or something ) I was thinking about Maidlin when I was reading this thread earlier. There are some quotes in Behind the Chalet School that would suggest EBD saw marriage as an ideal and that she didn't hide this. Quote: One friend who, perhaps unexpectedly, got married when already into her forties, recalls the vehemence with which Elinor exclaimed "Oh, you are so lucky." Another friend says she was certain that EBD longed to marry and said: Quote: "If she could have married, maybe there might not have been so many Chalet School books, but there would have been a contented Elinor". However, Helen McClelland does go on to say that she feels the CS books show that EBD had "impossibly rosy and unrealistic views on the subject" [of marriage].

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I was just thinking that perhaps the lost manuscript of 'India' was EBD attempting to take Joey in the travelling direction? I like the idea of her including Grizel - and I suspect that EBD might have as well, given that she allowed Grizel to stay so long in the series but still got her happy ending etc (she's always seemed like one of EBD's favourite characters to me). She needn't necessarily have been in the series less, either; she would have just been popping in once a term to solve the new girl's problem/recount some marvellous tales/ give away a copy of her new book/ take part in the end of term celebrations before heading off for her next exotic location.

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Sunglass wrote: Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...? That would have been a very interesting storyline, if maybe a bit sad for a series of children's books. Sunglass wrote: The perfect job for her would obviously have been as some form of counsellor for girls with problems, but that would have been completely anachronistic for the time period. IMO this basically is the job that Joey often actually does. Her status as someone who is 'part' of the school but not a school authority figure, and her insight which allows her to see the girl's POV often comes in handly with trouble girls. Partly EBD was obviously just trying to find a way to keep her favourite character in the series, but perhaps she felt that this was a necessary figure in a school anyway, therfore making her quite ahead of her time? In quite a lot of GO books you find a wise (usually female) older character who somehow the leading character befriends and who offers advice and support. For example in the Hamlet Club, you have Margia Lane. So Joey is not an entirely isolated example, though EBD was probably the only author to carry it on for such a long time, with the same character.

Author:	JB [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Loryat wrote: Sunglass wrote: Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...? That would have been a very interesting storyline, if maybe a bit sad for a series of children's books. It would have been sad but the Abbey Girls survived EJO killing off Andrew Marchwood and leaving Joy a widow with twins. Although I do think of Andrew as a plot device rather than a character - his marriage and death allow Joy to stay in the Hall and Jen to marry his brother and live at the Manor.

Author:	Llywela [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
And EBD doesn't exactly shy away from death - in the early years, especially, there are any number of sad bereavements, such as the climbing accident that robs Robin of her father and Bette of her husband, the death of Margot Venables, Jacynth's aunt, etc. Some tragedies are dealt with in some depth, others merely glossed over, but EBD wasn't afraid of allowing at least some of her characters to experience loss. She just wasn't brave enough to inflict such pain on Joey, however.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I always wonder what direction EBD would have taken Joey in if not for the war. She obviously intended her to marry Jack, as there are hints in New House, and even earlier, but in Jo Returns the focus is solely on Jo as a writer, not on her potential marriage. How much time would EBD have allowed Jo to have to 'grow up' if WWII hadn't interfered?

Author:	ammonite [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
But would the series have carried on if the war hadn't intervened and forced a change of scenario and new plot lines or would we have got several more books and ended with a grand marriage of Joey to Jack?

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Loryat wrote: Sunglass wrote: Just thinking about the plotline of Jack's death being discussed on the HIghland Twins thread, and wondering whether it wouldn't have been an interesting compromise between 'Mother of Eleven' Joey and 'Maiden Aunt Joey' if EBD had killed off Jack during the war, leaving Joey a widowed mother of triplets...? I must admit that I for one, would have found that quite depressing. I was ten when I read Little Men and I was absolutely devestated when Meg became a widow. It quite destroyed the book for me. I don't believe the series could have sustained an unmarried Joey somehow, probably because EBD so obviously idealised the married state. Most of the heroines of GO lit, including those of North America, marry and have large families.

Author:	RoseCloke [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Quote: I must admit that I for one, would have found that quite depressing. I was ten when I read Little Men and I was absolutely devestated when Meg became a widow. I never got around to reading Little Men - my library didn't have a copy. I thought they lived happily ever after! I loved Meg and John I would have loved Joey to remain a maiden aunt. It would have suited her far more than being a mother I think. Especially as Jack sometimes comes across as a distant father.. I do feel sorry sometimes for the Maynard children! I don't think it would have been difficult for EBD to keep Joey at the school in either a teaching or a 'successful author, friend of the school, looking for inspiration' capacity. Certainly as a girl I'd have loved it if EBD had lived next to my school, even more so if I went round for tea Edited now I've had a bit of a ponder : I think the points raised about the war are interesting, but I'm not sure we can solve them - to do that we'd have to guess how Austria would have developed post-1938. Unless you mean that Anschluss would have taken place but without a declaration of war. If so, I could see EBD maybe moving the school elsewhere, but definitely still marrying Jack and Jo. I think she'd reached the age where she needed a 'protector'. She had Jem and Madge but they never come across as parent figures - many of the other girls who lead independent lives in the CS books have parent(s), money or both. Jo had neither, until she started writing, and even then I imagine she wouldn't have had enough to support herself for a few years.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I'm not sure what EBD's original plans for Jo's future were - the idea of her becoming an author is mentioned in Jo of but then seems to go on the back burner for the next 6 years, and there was the idea of her going to Belsornia - but, as most school series don't go on that long, it's likely that she didn't initially expect that she'd still be writing the series after Jo had left school. By the later Tyrol books, there are various hints dropped about how Jo might say that she never intends to marry but that everyone thinks she will anyway. Whilst it's very annoying when you're a teenager and everyone says that you'll change your mind about whatever the subject is when you're older, it's not uncommon for GO heroines to say they'll never marry and then change their minds. And Jack had to be the one if only so that Jo could stay close to the school. I suppose EBD could have produced another doctor, but it's quite common for GO heroines to marry men they've known for years.

Author:	JB [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I do wonder if the series would have continued if there hadn't been a war, because this was the time when Chambers were suggesting that the series was long enough. I can't see EBD keeping Jo as a maiden aunt - there are hints as far back as Camp that she'll marry Jack and heriones in this genre of literature don't remain unmarried. I know that Mary Dorothy and Rachel in the Abbey Girls books are single writers but I feel they're secondary characters behind Jo, Jen, Maidlin, etc.

Author:	Loryat [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Nightwing wrote: I always wonder what direction EBD would have taken Joey in if not for the war. She obviously intended her to marry Jack, as there are hints in New House, and even earlier, but in Jo Returns the focus is solely on Jo as a writer, not on her potential marriage. How much time would EBD have allowed Jo to have to 'grow up' if WWII hadn't interfered? In Camp it mentions that Jack has already made up his mind about what Joey meant to him but time would tell etc... which is a wee bit icky IMO considering Joey is seventeen (sixteen?) and still at school, but different times and all that... Having said that I do really like their early relationship so I'm glad EBD did it that way. After all she could have just started the relationship off then and carried it on for several books, but that wouldn't be very GO. Girls always seem to marry after about three months of knowing their husband. Madge and Jem's relationship is practically at snail speed in comparison. I didn't like John's death. It didn't really seem necessary, and IIRC LMA didn't really go into the grief of Meg and the children, so why did she do it? Maybe she had just grown bored of John.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I don't know why she did it either - it always upsets me . Just pondering (will hometime ever come today ?) ... GO relationships involving main characters seem to fall into three main categories: 1. Girl and boy meet whilst aged between, say, 10 and 15, and, sometimes after various traumas and either or both of them going off and doing other things they eventually get together. Examples - Anne Shirley and Gilbert Blythe, various characters in EJO's Swiss books, most of the characters in Lorna Hill's Wells books. 2. Older man admires girl from afar. They eventually get together once girl has grown up. Examples - Meg March and John Brooke (possibly, although there isn't that much of an age gap and Meg is not that young when they meet), Elsie Dinsmore and Whatshisface Travilla (that one makes me feel sick!), Emily of New Moon and whatever her husband was called, Jo and Jack, Len and Reg. 3. Woman and man meet, and get married about three months later. Seems to happen with an awful lot of CS people .

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Loryat wrote: In Camp it mentions that Jack has already made up his mind about what Joey meant to him but time would tell etc... which is a wee bit icky IMO considering Joey is seventeen (sixteen?) and still at school, but different times and all that... Joey's extreme youth even by the time Jack has made up his mind always strikes me as a bit dubious - for God's sake, how long has he been making up his mind, and how old was she when he started making it up? I know there's a well-known precedent in Jane Austen marrying her twenty-one-year-old Emma to Emma's middle-aged brother-in-law and neighbour, who claims to have been in love with her since she was thirteen, but given that it wasn't unheard of for girls to marry at fifteen in Austen's day (like Lydia in Pride and Prejudice), an older man conceiving feelings of attraction towards a young teenager isn't quite so shocking. Anyway, that's by the way. The only thing that bothers me really about Jack having 'made up his mind about what Joey meant to him etc' is that it's so one-sided a way of writing about this stage of the relationship, as though it's only what the guy makes up his mind about that's important. I know it wouldn't have been appropriate (or even remotely in character) for EBD to show Joey developing a half-conscious particular liking for Jack during her schooldays, but it sets up this pattern of male sexual determination and female unconsciousness and passivity that's more than a bit alarming, especially as it's still operative a generation later, when Reg makes up his mind about what he wants from an even younger Len! I don't know, it sometimes seems to me that EBD is so 'nice-minded' and kind of dynastic (marriage is about rewarding favourite Old Girls with doctors and making the new CS girls of the future!) in her approach to marriage in the CS that she doesn't bear in mind the simple fact that many or most (non-arranged) matches are initially based on sexual attraction, as well as liking. So that, when Reg approaches Jack to ask permission to 'speak to' Len (as we assume Jack approached Jem a generation earlier about Joey for the same purpose), one of the things he's saying is 'I want to go to bed with your daughter legally - are you OK with that?' !!!

Author:	Loryat [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
When it comes to marrying after about three months Agatha Christie, Georgette Heyer and DFB are also offenders...actually in both AC and GH, quite often it's more like three weeks! Or less! Spoiler in white, regarding the Dimsie books: And to Dimsie, who is plainly going to marry that doctor man from the first page we meet him! Of course she's morally obliged after he pulls her through her blizzarditis.

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Alison H wrote: I don't know why she did it either - it always upsets me . Just pondering (will hometime ever come today ?) ... GO relationships involving main characters seem to fall into three main categories: 1. Girl and boy meet whilst aged between, say, 10 and 15, and, sometimes after various traumas and either or both of them going off and doing other things they eventually get together. Examples - Anne Shirley and Gilbert Blythe, various characters in EJO's Swiss books, most of the characters in Lorna Hill's Wells books. 2. Older man admires girl from afar. They eventually get together once girl has grown up. Examples - Meg March and John Brooke (possibly, although there isn't that much of an age gap and Meg is not that young when they meet), Elsie Dinsmore and Whatshisface Travilla (that one makes me feel sick!), Emily of New Moon and whatever her husband was called, Jo and Jack, Len and Reg. 3. Woman and man meet, and get married about three months later. Seems to happen with an awful lot of CS people . That bit always upsets me too, and then I always blank out that it happened at all by about half way through Jo's Boys and only remember it when Meg is wearing a widow's cap or something in one of the scenes. No need for that death that I can see! I think those categories sum up the relationships quite well (although I haven't read the Emily books in years, and thought she married Teddy in the end rather than Dean..? Could very easily be mid-remembering though, and either way she fits into category 1 or 2). Is that a reflection of the times or is it that the authors don't want to portray their heoines as playing "fast and loose" with young men? Or some combination of the two? I seem to remember a lot of disapproval when Anne (of Green Gables) decides she can't marry... um... whathisname. I'm trying to call him Royal Gardiner but surely I've got that wrong? makes mental note to re-read some Montgomery next month! Anyway, back to Jo Bettany, maiden aunt! I do think that EBD really always intended her to marry Jack, but it would have been interesting to see her as an adult and not a wife and mother. I wonder though if she'd just have been absorbed by the school in that case and taken over English, history or language classes while being gradually pushed towards taking over as head mistress (thus bringing things full circle to mirror the beginning of the series with Madge as Head Mistress?).

Author:	Loryat [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Sarah_G-G wrote: I wonder though if she'd just have been absorbed by the school in that case and taken over English, history or language classes while being gradually pushed towards taking over as head mistress (thus bringing things full circle to mirror the beginning of the series with Madge as Head Mistress?). I wonder if EBD was thinking about that, given that she had Joey teach in Returns? She had already said that Jack wanted Joey, but IIRC we don't have any inkling of what Joey is thinking till the SLOC moment and EBD is notorious for scrapping storylines and not bothering to mention it to anyone!

Author:	RubyGates [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Regarding the posts about John Brooke's death being unnecessary and not sure why it was put in; well I'm not sure why she shouldn't have put it in. The Little Women, Good wives books are semi-autobiographical and her brother-in-law died leaving her older sister with two young boys to look after so why shouldn't that end up in the books?

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Sarah_G-G wrote: I seem to remember a lot of disapproval when Anne (of Green Gables) decides she can't marry... um... whathisname. I'm trying to call him Royal Gardiner but surely I've got that wrong? makes mental note to re-read some Montgomery next month! I think he was called Royal Gardiner, though for some reason, seeing it out of context like that makes it much funnier than it was probably intended to be! He was all swoonsomely handsome, dark and melancholic, and paid wonderful compliments and did everything right, and poor Anne was as horrified as everyone else when she realised she wasn't remotely in love with him, despite the fact that he was practically perfect and Gilbert appeared to be in love with Christine Stuart. But - thinking about 'playing fast and loose' with men, the way poor Len is forbidden to do by Joey, in a particularly unhelpful maternal intervention - LM Montgomery makes a bit of a point of showing women changing their minds about men, or having unhappy love affairs, in the Emily books, as well as the Anne ones. Emily has this weird relationship with the much older Dean Priest until he releases her from their engagement, then is in unhappily love with Teddy, who is engaged to her friend Ilse, but when their mutual friend, the ambitious poor boy Perry, is said to be dying, Ilse jilts Teddy and runs off to confess her love to Perry, leaving Teddy free... And there are other jiltings, unhappy marriages and broken relationships Even LM Alcott is prepared to explore more complicated emotional territory than EBD with Lawrie's unrequited love for Jo, then his falling for Amy etc, and Jo's feelings of exclusion before she falls in love with unsuitable, poor, middle-aged Professor Bhaer, as well as Meg's being widowed. One gets the feeling that EBD liked a nice, organised, crystal-clear emotional life, with no ambivalence, jiltings, broken love affairs, jealousy. It's a pity in a way, because I always think what little we get of the Grizel-Deira-the guy triangle is complicated, messy and well done...

Author:	Loryat [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
RubyGates wrote: Regarding the posts about John Brooke's death being unnecessary and not sure why it was put in; well I'm not sure why she shouldn't have put it in. The Little Women, Good wives books are semi-autobiographical and her brother-in-law died leaving her older sister with two young boys to look after so why shouldn't that end up in the books? I never knew that, so I will forgive LMA. But for me what always annoyed me about John's death is that it's a bit of a throwaway storyline. She doesn't seem to go into it in any great depth. Maybe this was because she felt it was too painful to write, but then why write it at all?

Author:	RubyGates [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
That's something to be considered Loryat. There was an awful lot of stuff that happened in her life that she didn't put in and quite a lot that was invented. For example her youngest sister died in childbirth but Amy doesn't die and also Jo, who is based on Louisa, gets married but she never did. Perhaps she liked the idea of Meg as a long-suffering but serene widow?

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Loryat wrote: I never knew that, so I will forgive LMA. But for me what always annoyed me about John's death is that it's a bit of a throwaway storyline. She doesn't seem to go into it in any great depth. Maybe this was because she felt it was too painful to write, but then why write it at all? Yes, I feel the same way. John is dispensed with and Meg becomes a very young widow - 30, I think. There is no grief explored, Meg is immediately resigned and John becomes some sort of spirit guide, which is Meg's only consolation. I appreciate that it was autobiographical, but then why change anything at all. Jo whose character is based on LMA herself marries, while LMA remained unmarried. (Completely off point, does anyone agree with me that the last two books in the series are very poor by comparison with the first two?) Call me, or my younger self, completely anti feminist, but I had to have all my favourite GO characters marry. I also love big families, though I think Jo's is a little too big. Anne and Gilbert's is just the right size and beautifully balanced along age and gender lines.

Author:	Nightwing [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
On the subject of John dying - I never thought it was a throwaway storyline. Little Men was one of my favourite books in the quartet, and to me the focus is so much more on the children then the adults. I can see why it would be annoying for people that we never get to see Meg grieving, but we get Demi's reaction to it - trying to be the man of the family, saying not to call him Demi any more as he wants to be called John; and the wonderful scene where Father Bhaer tries to explain to the children that John wasn't a rich man, or a famous man, but he was a good man, and that was so much more important.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Nightwing wrote: and the wonderful scene where Father Bhaer tries to explain to the children that John wasn't a rich man, or a famous man, but he was a good man, and that was so much more important. I loved that too, and like any great truth, it has remained with me. However, I don't think the little Men is a patch on Little Women, maybe because a)Jo becomes too preachy, not unlike her literary descendent, and b) like EBD, I prefer reading about girls.

Author:	Pado [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
I had a similarly negative reaction to John Brooke's death. It just seemed gratuitous somehow. Now Jem...

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
Pado wrote: I had a similarly negative reaction to John Brooke's death. It just seemed gratuitous somehow. Now Jem... I thought John Brooke was the dullest creature imaginable, if admittedly loyal and decent and loving etc etc. The depictions of his and Meg's marriage in Good Wives used to make me groan with dismay, where Meg has to learn to give up her 'little vanities' and be wifely, deal with the boredom of being a housewife, and pretend an interest in the business pages of the newspaper - with no suggestion that John should try being a bit less soporifically dull in the evenings! I'd have killed Jem off quite happily at virtually any stage in the series. Or, if he never arrived on the scene at all (the San being opened by some married older medic), and the car crash had killed off only Mrs Carrick, what about marrying the subsequently reformed cad Lindley to Madge...? To go back to the idea of an unmarried Joey - it occurs to me that there's an assumption on EBD's part that Joey is universally seen as utterly happy and lucky and fulfilled and enviable, partly because of her writing, but mostly because of her apparently happy married life and large, equally happy family. So her generosity and empathy are seen by EBD and all the other characters are seen as outflowings from someone who is herself completely contented and fulfilled in every way. I can't imagine the 'cult of Joey' working in the same way, if Joey was less obviously 'lucky' in life. Would equal generosity and empathy have been viewed very differently if Joey was unmarried, not so embedded in her family, fame and wonderful old houses, and - crucially - not financially comfortable? It just seems as if lots of what Joey has to offer is reliant on her relative wealth. She has time for problem new girls and space to take in wards and longterm guests, or to go charging off to help Mary-Lou close up Carn Beg, because of the largeness of her house and income (along with Jack's), which is able to afford lots of domestic help and take the drudgery of childcare and housework off her hands and free her up to care for others, offer scholarships, pay for Reg Entwistle's education, adopt train crash babies without worrying about the cost etc. I don't think we ever see her in a position where she has to really sacrifice something concrete to help someone else, do we?

Author:	cal562301 [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Miss Jo Bettany - maiden aunt?
This possibly totally off topic, if so, forgive me! But all this talk about CS (and other GO) girls falling in love young, reminded me of Queen Elizabeth II. IIRC she first met Prince Philip when she was 13 and he was an 18 year old Naval Cadet. The tradition is that she fell in love with him at first sight - according to photos I've seen, he could have been quite handsome as a young man. Of course, the Queen would have had an even more sheltered upbringing than CS girls. If only half the rumours you hear/read are true, although they've been married for over 60 years, he's quite a ladies' man and the marriage might have had its problems, but of course divorce (or even separation) for the queen would be unthinkable, even though her sister and 3 of her 4 children have gone through divorce. To try and bring it back on topic, I was wondering how much this trend was a sign of the generation in which EBD wrote. 'Nice' girls certainly didn't generally have as many boyfriends as they seem to these days. I know my mum went round in a crowd of of friends of both sexes before pairing off with one of the men, which seems to have been what often happened in her day.