The CBB :: View topic - Joey's alleged helplessness

I'd dispute that it's because of her writer's imagination - Nell and Frieda must guess what might be in store should the U-boat catch up with them, but their fear affects them far less.

It's interesting that Jo's collapses always happen when there's someone else there to take over. When there's no-one else and she has to cope, she manages perfectly well

Joey isn't helpless, but she is a bit of a liability because of her highly-strung/sensitive nature and her 'delicate' health. This is key to her character all through the series, as far as I can see.

Joey has always been highly strung but I wouldn’t necessarily put that down to her being a writer - a person can be very imaginative without having the skills to turn that into writing.

Joey has always been highly strung but I wouldn’t necessarily put that down to her being a writer...

I think Jack's over-protectiveness has something to do with it in the later books.

Absolutely - it's a co-dependent situation, with both of them performing a role that I think got established quite early on, and which clearly sustains their relationship.

It also doesn't help that Jack is the Head of the San in Switzerland, so any other doctors are going to take special care of their boss's wife.

it wasn't common in the 1940s and 1950s for fathers to be present at the birth of their children in the way that it is now - in some quarters it was thought very inappropriate - but I don't see why Jack couldn't have been there if Joey had wanted him around and if he hadn't actually been involved in the medical side of things.

I do love the thought of Jack hovering around anxiously outside the door, though, and always popping in on some really awful pretence to see how things are going.

he wouldn't keep impregnating her

I disagree - a lot of the time you see them having a healthy, normal relationship, where they tease each other, discuss trivial domestic matters, etc. .

I think EBD admired the fragile

Quote:

I think EBD admired the fragile

Yes. Fragile women, that is. It's an interesting contrast to her message about school-girls being like school-boys, and being disapproving of school-girl passions and tears etc.

Perhaps fragility has to be (i) involuntary and (ii) have dramatic effect to get EBDs offical approved femininity stamp of approval.

Wasn't it Peter Chester in Guernsey who delivered the triplets?

I don't think EBD would approve of that at all, or the idea of an entire school of girls who were very carefully looking after their own health and asking for tonics and days in bed!

But - thinking about Malory Towers from another thread - you'd think there would be one girl who pretended ill health to get out of games or a ramble or cold baths, like Gwen pretending to have a weak heart...?

But surely Matey, who could hear the grass grow, would have immediately detected that the 'shammer' was indeed shamming.

That scene always makes me think I would hate to be Len as she always seemed to be pushed into the parent role and never seemed to be allowed to be a kid as Joey still got to play that role and was cosseted and protected. Yes she is supportive when she isn't directly affected, but she is also dealing with kids and their issues and not adult ones per se

But I don't ever remember anyone suggesting that her relationship with her mother is very likely to be a contributory factor...? It tends to be 'explained' as Len is naturally like that, or that it's her status as eldest triplet.

Slightly OT, I've always thought PackingBoxGate to be the most ridiculous scene penned fromEBD venerable quill.

Although I agree that the "straight to bed with sedation" response seems like a bit of an over-reaction.

I have a mild fever and sore throat. Should I go to work?
Goodness no, straight to bed for at least a week. While we're about it we better quarantine all your friends in case you are contagious.

To be fair, Joey didn't always get away with it - I seem to remember Bill being rather rude to her after she (Joey) faints when she sees Alixe van Elsen sleepwalking and making banshee noises!

Didn't Edna (?) try it on in Oberland? IIRC she's sent to bed with invalid diet, no sympathy, not allowed books. I think there's a mention that this occasionally happens to malingerers and, of course, she's not dealt with by Matey :lol:

Matron came to remove her to San. when the Heads had finished with her; but first she marched the girl to her dormitory and stood over her while she turned out her drawers, her hatbox and every other hidey-hole she could have had. Another forbidden book came to light and a box of candies which was promptly confiscated to be sent up to the big Sanatorium in the Welsh Mountains.

...It makes me think a bit about the notion of private space (non-existent at the CS) and the CS ethos of trusting the girls - if what Matey is really doing in her endless dormitory inspections is checking for contraband, does that not run counter to the ethos of trust?

I think the passage you've quoted above suggests that Matey does not check for contraband during her tidiness inspections, hence the need for Jennifer to turn out her drawers, hatbox and other hiding places when she's shown herself to be untrustworthy.

... presumably drawers were used mainly for stockings and underwear, and the thought of someone looking in your underwear drawer at regular intervals is really not very nice :roll:

Which makes me wonder if Marie ever got letters from Count von und zu Wertheimer. Would that have been different because they were engaged?

...and the postmark on one for Elma caught her eye. With an exclamation of surprise, she turned it over to inspect the back of the envelope. Then she set it to one side, and when Miss Wilson came into the office handed it over to her.

"Look at this Nell," she said. "It's in this morning's post for Elma Conroy."

Miss Wilson took the letter casually and looked at the address.

"Typewritten," she said. "Is she writing about make-up samples or sweets or what?" She spoke laughingly. Then she looked again. "No; it isn't that. This has a Berne postmark."

"Yes, I noticed that," Matron replied. "And there's no address on the back, either."

...The lack of this proved that it came from an English correspondant.

The Head eyed the harmless-looking envelope with deep dislike. "What has the wretched girl been doing, I wonder?"

"I suppose it isn't from her father?" Matron suggested.

"No; it couldn't be... I think you'd better send Elma to my, Gwyn. I'm going to the study so send her to me there. I'm not going to open and read their letters, but when something like this arrives for any of them, I must be sure there's no harm in it."

I wrote for several years to a boy in Rhodesia - but I called him Belinda

Which is why I'm confused that it seems to be the combination of a Berne postmark and a typewritten address that seems to cause surprise - and would a commercial enterprise of any kind sending Elma a typewritten envelope have inevitably put their address on the back anyway?

I suppose that the teachers have a responsibility to look after the children, and would therefore be held accountable if, for example, Elma had run off and it came out she'd been getting letters beforehand and they hadn't noticed.

Author:	cestina [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Joey's alleged helplessness
I'm a very new girl here so this topic may well have been covered in the past but am intrigued by the frequent references to Joey's inability to cope in a crisis. I have to confess this is not how I have ever viewed her and although I realise that there is much mention in the books of her being highly strung it seems to me that she operates well in a crisis despite this. She may have a reaction afterwards of course. And if she is so useless in a crisis then why is she constantly being hauled in for consultation by staff and prefects? I'd love to see some examples of what people view as her helplessness....I'm open to being convinced though I suppose she must rank as one of my earliest role models

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
I think we see her at her most helpless in the war books. During the escape from Austria in Exile, Miss Wilson is in pain from her bad foot and the other girls there are all younger than Joey but, instead of trying to help Nell or Robin or just try to be encouraging generally, Joey gets hysterical, clings to Jack both physically and metaphorically, and causes Jack and Gottfried even more worry than they've got already. Following the journey away from Guernsey, Joey collapses and leaves Nell and Frieda quite literally holding the babies. The triplets were her responsibility, not theirs. If you contrast that with e.g. the way Elisaveta copes with her wartime experiences, Joey does seem pretty helpless by comparison. Just my opinion !

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
It makes such a contrast to earlier Joey, who is usually the first to dig in and nearly kill herself in a crisis. I wonder if Jack was putting something in her doses... It's interesting that Joey, the spirit of the school, is actually something of a Spineless Jellyfish. I don't agree that she is completely helpless in a crisis, and I think there is often a mitigating circumstance which takes some of that away when she is, but she isn't nearly as strong as some of the other characters. Mind, she was probably pregnant quite a lot of the time, which always leads to fainting/helplessness. I think she deals very well with other people's crisis - helping them deal with grief, and things. It's when it directly concerns her that she falls apart.

Author:	cestina [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Right - I suppose I have always put her excessive nervous reaction in such situations down to her writer's imagination. I have always thought that with this vivid imagination she would have a fair clearer picture of the dire consequences of what was happening around them and that she, highly strung as she was, reacted accordingly. I don't have the book with the flight from Guernsey here with me in the Czech Republic so can't look at the passage you mention but I guess in my mind the same would apply.

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
The problem is that Joey is far too imaginative and highly strung for her own good, so when things are directly happening to her, they affect her far more, it seems, than they do other people. When they are escaping from a U-Boat in Goes To It, despite them being in a huge yacht with an enormous crew, two close friends, and with her three babies to look after, Joey goes down with a high fever and only wakes up after they've landed a few days later! And when she gets the awful news of Jack's supposed death in Highland Twins, she completely falls apart, "turns her face to the wall", and can't spare any feeling to look after her children or to reassure Daisy or Robin, who are living with her, and who love Jack themselves. Even later in the series she faints for two hours when Mike almost falls down a cliff, and is very easily upset. I'd dispute that it's because of her writer's imagination - Nell and Frieda must guess what might be in store should the U-boat catch up with them, but their fear affects them far less. I agree that she's great for other people - sitting by Mary-Lou for hours after her accident, because Doris can't be there, for example - but coping after she's had a bad shock or a fright is not one of her strong points!

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Joey's alleged helplessness http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6495

Author:	cestina [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Emma A wrote: I'd dispute that it's because of her writer's imagination - Nell and Frieda must guess what might be in store should the U-boat catch up with them, but their fear affects them far less. I think that's exactly what I mean - she is far better at writing the on-going script than the far more practical and pragmatic Nell and Frieda and that's what leads to her collapsing when she or her family are directly affected. As you say - much too imaginative and therefore highly strung for her own good.

Author:	JayB [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
It's interesting that Jo's collapses always happen when there's someone else there to take over. When there's no-one else and she has to cope, she manages perfectly well - as in the train crash with Erica on the way back to the Platz in Summer Term, when she's fine after a good night's sleep. Even though there we see, as Celestina says, her imagination at work, foreseeing how events might play out and how her family might be affected.

Author:	cestina [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
JayB wrote: It's interesting that Jo's collapses always happen when there's someone else there to take over. When there's no-one else and she has to cope, she manages perfectly well I think that makes her very human!! True to life......

Author:	Tor [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Joey isn't helpless, but she is a bit of a liability because of her highly-strung/sensitive nature and her 'delicate' health. This is key to her character all through the series, as far as I can see. So I'd qualify the phrase inability to cope in a crisis, as unable to cope after a crisis. That's the crux, in my opinion... for example, even though Jack going missing in action could be described as a crisis, I think Joey's collapse is actually the aftermath of the first 'crisis' - the telegram. She doesn't do well when crises come in quick succession (e.g the flight in Exile). Had she been at sea with Jack, for example, I'm sure she'd actually have dealt well in the moment and tried to do something to save him etc. Then she'd faint and be laid up i bed for ages afterwards. I don't know if that makes any sense, at all?

Author:	JB [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Tor wrote: Quote: Joey isn't helpless, but she is a bit of a liability because of her highly-strung/sensitive nature and her 'delicate' health. This is key to her character all through the series, as far as I can see. I think this sums it up for me too. In the early books, Joey’s delicate health relates to physical problems eg a tendency to bronchitis. Later, it changes to emotional delicacy (if you see what I mean). As she has six successful pregnancies (including three multiple births), it would seem physical delicacy is a thing of the past. She is very fit and can hold her own with the school’s best swimmer – and even races Roger Richardson a couple of months after giving birth to twins whom she’s presumably breast feeding. On the other hand, Jack will dose her and send her to bed at the smallest excuse eg falling into a box. Joey has always been highly strung but I wouldn’t necessarily put that down to her being a writer - a person can be very imaginative without having the skills to turn that into writing.

Author:	Mia [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Joey holds it together quite well at some points on the flight to Switzerland, for example, when the Nazis speak to them and she has the presence of mind to pretend to be Roma. I agree it does seem to be quite inconsistent. JB wrote: Joey has always been highly strung but I wouldn’t necessarily put that down to her being a writer - a person can be very imaginative without having the skills to turn that into writing. Isn't this textual, though? I thought EBD had expressly stated this but I would have to look to see where.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
JB wrote: Joey has always been highly strung but I wouldn’t necessarily put that down to her being a writer... Absolutely. I know lots of writers, and don't think I could point to even one I could describe as 'highly-strung', certainly not to the extent they need sedation after getting briefly stuck in a packing case in their own living room. Writers are no more generally highly-strung in my than the average scientist/bus driver/sheep farmer! I think what I tend to find irritating at times about Joey is that, despite all the other times that EBD has someone tell a character they need to pull themselves together, keep calm and carry on, she just panders to Joey's highly-strung-ness. After her childhood delicacy clears up, she's clearly as strong as a horse physically, yet the 'don't worry Mamma' mantra in her family suggests she's dangerously fragile and might be made seriously ill by shock or strain, which doesn't seem to have any basis in reality. No one could describe her life as generally high-stress, and I think there's an element of Joey performing emotional fragility and everyone around her panders to her. It's never Joey who suggests she needs a rest or a sedative - she never has to, because Madge or Jem or Jack steps in and enforces it - and I sometimes wonder what Joey would do if there wasn't someone there to reinforce how 'fragile' she is, and remind her of what a difficult year she's had etc. Would she just get on with things?

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
It seems to me that when there is actually something for Joey to do in a crisis, she is perfectly capable of doing it - it's when she has nothing to do but worry that she falls to bits. At times like her escape from Austria, and again the trip from Guernsey, when she has a lot of time to think about what's going to happen (and what terrible things might happen) she's a wreck. But she's also perfectly capable of thinking on her feet and acting when she needs to.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
I think that I can empathise with that mentality to a certain extent (pulls spine out and grows tentacles) I plan out whole scenarios just to reassure myself that I could escape from burglars etc, and when I do have to do something I usually can, but if I'm just sitting thinking about what might happen I panic really easily. That being said, if I saw a spider, Jack would have to keep me dosed up for about three days, based on his sliding scale of 'response to dosage' ratio.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Madge and Jem have a conversation in one of the later Tyrol books in which one of them says something about Joey being over-imaginative and highly-strung and the other one says "That's why she can write," (or words to that effect). I think Jack's over-protectiveness has something to do with it in the later books. I find it quite upsetting in Joey & Co when Charles is taken ill in the night and goes to wake Len (who at that point is only 14 herself) rather than his parents, because Jack's made such a big deal about how the children aren't to do anything that might distrub/upset Joey. & then Len waits for hours before waking Jack and Joey, for the same reason. I'm sure Joey would much rather that Charles had come to her straight away.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Alison H wrote: I think Jack's over-protectiveness has something to do with it in the later books. Absolutely - it's a co-dependent situation, with both of them performing a role that I think got established quite early on, and which clearly sustains their relationship. (I find myself recognising elements of my brother-in-law and his wife's marriage. She's an ordinarily healthy mother of two, but their (apparently happy) relationship is built on what looks to an outsider like a myth of her fragility where there's a lot of 'My poor, poor little wife' and bed immediately after dinner...) I can't help thinking it's significant that their first love exchange is bound up with Jack giving Joey support in a crisis - it seems like a pattern established itself then, and it was probably deepened by the fact they have to escape into Switzerland almost immediately. She's imaginative, fragile and needy, he's the SLOC/protector. (Also, maybe the fact that he first knew her when she was still genuinely physically fragile during her schooldays has an impact on how he thinks of her health later...? Though you'd think that if Jack genuinely thought Joey was less than perfectly healthy, he wouldn't keep impregnating her, especially given her tendency to multiple babies. And in fairness, she seems perfectly healthy, it's just that this doesn't quite fit with how she's treated by the other people around her who always behave as though she can't be trusted to decide whether she's fit to do something or not...) I wonder how Joey herself thought of her own health? She's usually the one protesting that she's fine, but again, things are always set up so that someone else makes her rest/leave half her family behind/take a sedative...

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Absolutely - it's a co-dependent situation, with both of them performing a role that I think got established quite early on, and which clearly sustains their relationship. I disagree - a lot of the time you see them having a healthy, normal relationship, where they tease each other, discuss trivial domestic matters, etc. Joey also does her bit of looking after Jack - when he comes home tired from the San she looks after him and pampers him as much as she can. So there's more than codependency keeping their relationship alive. The problem is that Jack is her doctor as well as her husband, and he lets his medical duty to her be affected by his own emotional attachment to her. Arguably, so does Jem, who cares about her as a little sister. It also doesn't help that Jack is the Head of the San in Switzerland, so any other doctors are going to take special care of their boss's wife.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Nightwing wrote: It also doesn't help that Jack is the Head of the San in Switzerland, so any other doctors are going to take special care of their boss's wife. I wonder how a situation where either Joey or Madge needed medical help and Jack/Jem weren't around for some reason would be handled? It would be very awkward for the doctor stuck in the middle, surely? But (and I'm guessing completely here - please feel free to correct me!) isn't there an ethical issue with them treating their family? Obviously everyday things within the role a "normal" father would be expected to play are different, but if it was a serious diagnosis or needed long-term treatment, should they get involved? And would they be present at the birth of their children? (That one in particular is really boggling my mind) And as she goes sailing completely off topic once again...

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Doctors certainly aren't supposed to treat members of their own family now, and that would have applied in CS days too. I'm not sure whether "dosing" someone would class as "treatment" in the same way as an operation, being given medication at the San or (had Jack and Jem been GPs) a consultation at the surgery, though. Having said which, it's pretty unethical anyway in that the doses often seem to be administered without the recipient's knowledge/consent . If Joey or one of the children had needed an operation or other treatment at the San, I don't think Jack would have been allowed to get involved. & it wasn't common in the 1940s and 1950s for fathers to be present at the birth of their children in the way that it is now - in some quarters it was thought very inappropriate - but I don't see why Jack couldn't have been there if Joey had wanted him around and if he hadn't actually been involved in the medical side of things.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Alison H wrote: it wasn't common in the 1940s and 1950s for fathers to be present at the birth of their children in the way that it is now - in some quarters it was thought very inappropriate - but I don't see why Jack couldn't have been there if Joey had wanted him around and if he hadn't actually been involved in the medical side of things. My granddad was the first man Bath hospital ever knew who watched his child being born, and his family were so horrified he didn't bother going to the birth of the other four Personally I can't imagine being able to stay away, but of course I've never known any different. I do love the thought of Jack hovering around anxiously outside the door, though, and always popping in on some really awful pretence to see how things are going.

Author:	Nightwing [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I do love the thought of Jack hovering around anxiously outside the door, though, and always popping in on some really awful pretence to see how things are going. "Um, I brought her her favourite lime green nightshirt! She hates going to hospital without it! ?"

Author:	Tor [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Quote: he wouldn't keep impregnating her By-the-by, isn't 'impregnating' a horrible word shudders, for something that should be so beautiful?! I think a lot of Joey's collapsing tendencies, or as JB (i think) nicely put it, her transition from physical delicacy to emotional delicacy, and the oddly overbearing/over-protective side of Jack, may say quite a bit about EBDs ideas about an ideal marriage. Somewhere I read that EBD herself was given to rather intense friendships, that often ended stormily, and that she was quite a theatrical personality. I can just see her wishing that someone would indulge her at times! Thus we get so many lovely scenes between Jack and Jo, as Nightwing says, which sit oddly against the 'don't upset Mama' line, and dosing/bed-rest prescriptions. I also think Cosimo's Jackal makes a very good point about their relationship being defined by the original SLOC moment in many ways. In CS land health is of paramount importance. That in itself always gave me a strong impression of EBD as a person who craved being looked after. She was looking after her own mother, so perhaps she wanted a break...?! Joey is the epitome of the CS girl, and so she gets that looking after throughout her life - which makes her a tad annoying at times, as (i) passivity of that sort isn't typical heroine material and (ii) by the time she is an adult, she isn't usually the the protagonist of her own crisis (compared to the 'twice as much spirit as strength' Joey of Tirol days).

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Nightwing wrote: I disagree - a lot of the time you see them having a healthy, normal relationship, where they tease each other, discuss trivial domestic matters, etc. . Maybe co-dependency is too loaded a term. I mean that one of the underlying structures of their marriage is based on those roles, even when they're not always actively inhabiting them at any particular moment. In fact, it's obvious they don't all the time simply from the number of children they have - if Jack genuinely believed Joey to be as fragile as he sometimes behaves as though she is, he would never have agreed to that number of pregnancies. (I always find myself thinking of the power dynamics of Leonard and Virginia Woolf's marriage, where L was very much the 'caretaker' of a physically and mentally fragile literary genius, and seems to have decided, along with the medics, that pregnancy would be too much for her, which she always regretted.) And I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing, either - J and J's relationship is clearly very happy, and I suppose all our longterm relationships involve some element of role play - apart from the perception of Joey's genuine fragility the children are given, which I think is potentially a burden. Like that time Chas probably suffers needlessly because Len believes she needs to try not to worry her mother at night. I agree with Tor that EBD's idea of an ideal marriage is very much about being looked after, and her writing in general suggests a need for someone else to take control - you even see it every time someone bursts into tears in the study and is sent to bed to recuperate - maybe she always looked like she could cope in her own life, and had to do her crying in the bathroom and come out and carry on afterwards...?

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
It probably was - her dad walked out when she was a kid, her brother sadly died young, and then she cared for her mum after her stepfather's death. I get the impression she'd've loved to be swept off her feet by a strong, manly doctor, or at the very least looked after by a super-efficient matron who'd've brought her mugs of hot milk and told her to stay in bed and rest. I can actually understand that - I'm not sure any of us would want to be "dosed" without our knowledge, but (being someone who is utterly hopeless at anything practical and has no idea what to do when something breaks down!) there's something quite appealing about the idea of someone else wading in and sorting things out, or telling you to go and have a nice lie-down whilst they look after you! I usually calm down after a few minutes, but maybe EBD didn't!

Author:	Thursday Next [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
I think EBD admired the fragile. Joey isn't the only one to collapse at times of trouble, Madge does the same. When Sybil is kidnapped it is Madge who takes to her bed whilst Joey is the strong character looking after her and ordering the household until Jem is on the scene. There are other cases of Madge collapsing.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Quote: I think EBD admired the fragile Yes. Fragile women, that is. It's an interesting contrast to her message about school-girls being like school-boys, and being disapproving of school-girl passions and tears etc. Perhaps fragility has to be (i) involuntary and (ii) have dramatic effect to get EBDs offical approved feminity stamp of approval. Doris Trelawny/Margot Rosomon don't really get the authorial thumbs up, do they...?

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
There are some interesting and very realistic scenes involving people who genuinely don't go around collapsing like Joey does but are having to cope with very difficult situations. The part in Excitements in which Matey, who's always the strong one, is trying to cope with learning of her sister's death is very touching, and I really feel for Mary-Lou in Reunion when she's just lost her mother and is feeling alone, and for Hilda in Trials when we see her looking drawn and stressed following Naomi's accident.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Tor wrote: Quote: I think EBD admired the fragile Yes. Fragile women, that is. It's an interesting contrast to her message about school-girls being like school-boys, and being disapproving of school-girl passions and tears etc. Perhaps fragility has to be (i) involuntary and (ii) have dramatic effect to get EBDs offical approved femininity stamp of approval. I think it's also about the fragility being policed and talked about by other people, not by the girl/woman herself. Out of all of EBD's many fragile characters, there isn't a single one I can think of who says 'I don't think I should do that, because it'll make me too tired/ill'. Imagine how different if Joey were the one saying 'I'd better only join the snow fight for fifteen minutes, or I'll have to stay in bed tomorrow', or 'I'm so exhausted after being rescued from the packing-case that I think I'd better take a sedative and go to bed for the afternoon and leave the rest of you to pack'. (Or even Robin, who must have been aware of her own fragility since early childhood, saying 'I'm too tired to go and pour away this water' or 'I'm not strong enough to go for that walk.') I don't think EBD would approve of that at all, or the idea of an entire school of girls who were very carefully looking after their own health and asking for tonics and days in bed!

Author:	Tor [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
yes, that is what I was getting at by saying 'involuntary', but you've put it much more clearly. I am trying to work out whether this attitude of EBDs is liberating or a little sinister... undecided

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
I think EBD falls into the trap of wanting her female characters to be as strong and hardy as boys, but also needs to emphasise the differences bewteen weak/helpless female and strong/manly doctor. Like when Grizel runs away - Joey has the strength to catch her up and keep her safe until a doctor can arrive on the scene and do the really difficult bit of getting them back safely.

Author:	Mel [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
I don't think that Jack would officially be her doctor. Wasn't it Peter Chester in Guernsey who delivered the triplets? The thing about Joey's famed frailty and collapsing at times of stress is that EBD clearly thought that this was an admirable character trait and probably wished that she was the same. In reality it would be very irritating, especially the awed comments about her writing ability and artistic temperament. She wrote (mainly) jolly school stories for girls - not metaphysical poetry!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Mel wrote: Wasn't it Peter Chester in Guernsey who delivered the triplets? But Jack was away at war at the time, so he couldn't have done it anyway. Are we told about who delivers any of the other children?

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: I don't think EBD would approve of that at all, or the idea of an entire school of girls who were very carefully looking after their own health and asking for tonics and days in bed! I love the idea of CS as a school for hypochondriacs! Far from avoiding Matey, everyone queuing up to ask her for medicine for some strange new symptom and wanting special diets and refusing cold baths, and worrying about draughts, needing bed rest and examining one another's tongues in the mornings! More seriously, one would think that might be a genuine risk with a school that advertises its San connections and that it specialises in fragile girls, that the whole place might become like a kind of slightly cotton-woolly San annexe. In fact, the CS seems remarkably unaffected by the presence of a quite large number of girls who are seen as TB threats or otherwise fragile. There are very few girls who get obviously special treatment over the whole course of the series, bar some people who get early bed after some excitement, and one or two who don't play certain games. But - thinking about Malory Towers from another thread - you'd think there would be one girl who pretended ill health to get out of games or a ramble or cold baths, like Gwen pretending to have a weak heart...?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joey's alleged helplessness
Sunglass wrote: But - thinking about Malory Towers from another thread - you'd think there would be one girl who pretended ill health to get out of games or a ramble or cold baths, like Gwen pretending to have a weak heart...? God, yes, absolutely. It would have been me! Not to get out of walks or rambles, but double Maths on German day, or a science test I hadn't revised for! But I can't even think of one time that a girl spontaneously goes and tells Matey she feels off-colour - EBD's default assumption seems to be that no one does until actually forced to do so. Plus she always behaves as though bed rest is the same thing as a punishment, though I can think of far worse things than a nice afternoon lying down with a book while the rest of my form slog.