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Jack and Grizel
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Author:  Alison H [ Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Jack and Grizel

I know this has been discussed before, but I've just noticed a bit in Exploits which I've never really picked up on before - although everyone else probably has :oops: - so decided to mention it again!

As has been said quite often, Grizel seems quite shocked and not particularly pleased when she hears of Joey's engagement. It's possible that she's just genuinely surprised because it isn't as if Jack and Joey had been "courting", and also she's probably quite justifiably hurt that Joey, her oldest friend, hasn't had the manners to tell her the big news herself. However, she says something about how she can't believe that "even" Jack Maynard could change Joey's mind about marriage, and the "even" suggests that she thinks Jack's quite special.

The bit I've just noticed in Exploits involves Jem being concerned about Grizel and Juliet walking home after dark, and Juliet saying that they'll be fine because it's a clear night and no-one's going to run off with them. Jack jokes that anyone who did run off with them'd drop them pretty quickly, and Grizel pretends to be offended and walks off. Juliet is worried that Jack'll think he's upset Grizel, but Jack assures her that he realises Grizel's just teasing and says "I understand Grizel". There doesn't seem to be much point to the scene except to show that Jack and Grizel are quite close, and it's rare in Chalet-land for a single man and a single woman to be "just good friends".

It'd already been indicated in Camp that Jack was destined to end up with Joey, but it just made me wonder again if maybe EBD'd been undecided and really had thought of possibly pairing him up with Grizel instead ...?

Author:  Sarah_K [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

It would have been interesting if she did! Presumeably Grizel would have been a much nicer person (well EBD wouldn't have made her so spikey for so long) if she'd married Jack...

I've often wondered about why Grizel is so obviously not pleased for Joey, it's full of drabble potential from all sides (for example, perhaps Jack and Grizel understand each other so well because they're both in love with Joey? :twisted: )

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I'd never noticed that bit, but it leaves me wondering whether Grizel is actually in a huff when she walks off - the others reassure one another that she's only joking, but given that a few chapters earlier we saw her being genuinely resentful that Joey wants to see Robin rather than talk exclusively to her at the Annexe, I'm not so sure...? It suggests Jack doesn't 'understand' her as well as he says, if he doesn't realise how quick to take offence she is. (And he should, as they both have serious tempers, although we don't see his until after his marriage.)

I do think that the reason Grizel is such an interesting character is that she seems to be the stopping-point for the bit of EBD's imagination that knows perfectly that things don't always work out well, that people can't always be sorted out completely by a few terms at the CS, that some people are dissatisfied and touchy and complicated and want things they can't have. Whether that's Joey's undivided attention, or Jack Maynard, or to be chief bridesmaid, or be a gym teacher. Even though EBD doesn't seem to like her much a lot of the time, when she's on the scene as an adult, the books are a bit more adult too, for me. There aren't too many other resentful, hot-tempered adult malcontents on the scene in the CS.

Author:  claire [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

can someone please write this

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I think someone - Richenda? - started it.

Author:  moiser30 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I always had this funny feeling Grizel was jelous of Joey for some reason.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I always had this funny feeling Grizel was jelous of Joey for some reason.
(moiser)

I'd never picked up on this before, but it makes sense. Joey was younger than Grizel and had declared on a number of occasions that she had no intention of marrying. Grizel may well have had a crush, or more, on Jack and would therefore have felt desolate at the thought of losing both of them to each other. All her life Grizel had envied Joey her happy homelife with Madge and now whe has an even greater cause for jealousy. Grizel is EBD's most well drawn character and we see her suffer emotionally at different stages in the series. Joey's desertion at that particular period in her life would have hit hard. She becomes steadily more morose throuhgout the books until her breakdown and rescue in Reunion.

Author:  Nightwing [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

In terms of Grizel's relationships with Jack and Joey, it's interesting to note that when Grizel accidentally sets Len on fire in Carola, she says something to the effect of the worst bit about the whole thing is that it was Joey's daughter who she hurt (sorry, I don't have my book with me at the moment so I can't find the exact quotation!). I think we can assume that either Joey has always been more important to Grizel than Jack, or that Grizel's feelings for Jack have dissipated over the years.

I'm actually glad that EBD didn't marry Grizel off to Jack, if she'd ever been considering it - the fact that Grizel has to struggle so long and so hard for happiness makes her eventual happy ending so much more meaningful than most characters'.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Quote:
(And he should, as they both have serious tempers, although we don't see his until after his marriage.)


Tell me if I'm missing something really obvious, but I never picked up on that.

I've always found Jack slightly creepy ever since he revealed he fell in love with Joey at 15. I know that's probably just me trying to fit his actions into this time period, rather than when he actually 'lived' but I still find it a little odd.

It wouldn't surprise me if Grizel had feelings for him, but also if he reciprocated them. I know I am definetely imagining this, but I've always thought Mary-Lou might have had "feelings" for him. If she does, she is so like Joey that I think he could return them.

All the same, little fan-girl me thinks that Joey and Jack live happily and nothing bad ever happens to them. So from that position I will not be budged. For now.

[/end of random babble]

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

It's not something I can imagine EBD writing about, but most girls in their early to mid teens will have crushes on famous people, friends' brothers, etc, and, seeing as the CS girls were pretty much isolated from boys their own age, wouldn't have been encouraged to read magazines with pictures of famous people in them (although I think Grizel in her youth may have been keen on the Prince of Wales, the future Duke of Windsor, seeing as she collected postcards of him :lol: ) and presumably would not have been interested in Mr Denny or Herr Laubach :roll: , I can imagine that quite a few people had a bit of a thing for Jack ...

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I think the thing that always suggested that to me was the scene in Problem where Jack has to give advice because Joey isn't there. Again, it could be because of the culture I've grown up in, but if I were Miss Annersley I would think twice about letting a pupil, even or perhaps especially as mature as Mary-Lou, be alone with an older man. Even one as trusted and "good" as Jack Maynard could be accused of something, and as a Dr he should be especially aware of that.

The repetition of the fact Mary-Lou has "Joey's mantle" doesn't really help my dirty mind either...

Author:  LizzieC [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
...if I were Miss Annersley I would think twice about letting a pupil, even or perhaps especially as mature as Mary-Lou, be alone with an older man. Even one as trusted and "good" as Jack Maynard could be accused of something, and as a Dr he should be especially aware of that.


I think here we're in danger of judging what was ok in that day and time period by the prejudices and social norms of now. I think everyone is much more sensitive about this now than we used to be because of things that have happened or come out in the past 10 or 20 years. I've not put this very well, but I do think we need to be careful about judging events in these books by the standards etc of today, rather than ~80-40 years ago (depending on the book).

In addition it's worth remembering that 1. In the incident in question, Mary-Lou expected Joey to be there, as did Miss Annersley when she gave permission for Mary-Lou to go and 2. That Jack (referred to by OOAO as "Uncle Jack") would have been very close to Mary-Lou (possibly one of the few brevet-nieces he did actually know properly). The Maynards lived next door to the Trelawneys for an awfully long time when the school was in England, and I suspect ML would have spent the summers in and out of Plas Gwyn (and possibly the Triplets in and out of Carn Beg), so Jack here is a close family friend, akin to an uncle, and even a possible father figure to ML for a while. Even today it wouldn't necessarily be taboo for a very close male family friend, seen as an uncle, to be alone with children that he knew well. At least, I hope it wouldn't :? .

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I think Mary-Lou would have seen Jack as an uncle-figure, and for the same sort of reason I don't find it worrying when Len and some of the others accept lifts from Phil Graves or other doctors. I can still imagine some of the girls having doctor-crushes, though :lol: . Especially as they were probably trained to think that doctors were ideal men ...

Author:  Caroline [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Perhaps Grizel had a crush on Joey....? :evil:

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Again, it could be because of the culture I've grown up in, but if I were Miss Annersley I would think twice about letting a pupil, even or perhaps especially as mature as Mary-Lou, be alone with an older man. Even one as trusted and "good" as Jack Maynard could be accused of something, and as a Dr he should be especially aware of that.


I think that is your culture - as recently as ten years ago it was still possible for a child to be in the sole presence of an unrelated adult male whom she knew well. Yes, sometimes said adult male did take advantage of that friendship, but I highly doubt Jack did, somehow!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I know it's just me and being brought up as I have been.

Back to the original discussion; the idea of Grizel "liking" Jack is really sweet, I think. It might also explain why she stays at the Chalet School, even though it must be a constant reminder to her of how she was treated by her step-mother, and it must be horrible with everyone knowing she wanted to do something else and couldn't.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I agree that no one would have seen anything amiss about Jack being alone with Mary-Lou. To think otherwise would have been really quite shocking, and would have required specific grounds. He was clearly well within the "safe male" category.

It's hard to believe what a culture shift has occurred in just a few years. For example, the norm early in my career would have been for faculty to welcome students into their homes, etc. Now I'm not even supposed to shut the door when someone is crying in my office, resulting in the no-win situation of students claiming violation of privacy when those outside overhear. And for younger people, it's become virtually impossible to establish the sort of mentor relationship that was important to my generation. Those who have abused the trust have a lot to answer for.

As for Grizel, I think she returns to the school largely because it's the one place she's found some semblance of a home. I suspect she longed to be as much a part of the Bettany family as Robin, and resents having her visions of a happy home disrupted by Jack 'breaking up the family.'

Author:  Mel [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Grizel at the Sonnalpe sees all her friends married, Gisela, Bette, Juliet, Wanda, Bernhilda etc etc and probably saw Joey and herself as similar unmarried friends. Now, if even Joey is engaged, she might feel lonely. And the bitterness deepens.

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I think Mel may be right on that. She would not be alone in feeling sad, even a bit resentful at the unexpected engagement of one of her closest friends. This scenario often happens in real life too. I remember having very mixed felings when my closest friend got engaged very quickly after meeting her present husband. On the one hand I was really happy for her as he was a really nice guy, but on the other hand I felt a little panicky, almost as though I'd been deserted by her. It meant a huge upheavel in my social life, and by that I mean man hunting! Thankfully it all worked out very well and she and I are still really close, but there was that period of adjustment that most of us, I think, find difficult when relationships shift.

Author:  Emma A [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Hmm, interesting comments, but doesn't the bit in Exploits that Alison quotes suggest that it's Jack who might have feelings for Grizel rather than the other way round? Or perhaps they did have tentatively mutual feelings before Jack decided (for whatever reason) that he preferred Joey. And Grizel may have been disappointed at first, but clearly finds a sufficiently fulfilling relationship in Joey's friendship (though after Joey's marriage they're never shown as particularly close friends, until Reunion, probably). I do like the idea that it might have been Joey that Grizel was in love with... :D

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I do like the idea that it might have been Joey that Grizel was in love with... :D (Emma C)
Absolutely not. Grizel's most significent relationship was with Joey and Madge. She was eternally grateful for the fact that the Bettany sisters rescued her from an unhappy home situation. The trajedy is that her deep feelings are not reciprocated.

Author:  Mia [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

This is a great Grizel/Joey drabble - good ambiguity!

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

MJKB wrote:
Absolutely not. Grizel's most significent relationship was with Joey and Madge. She was eternally grateful for the fact that the Bettany sisters rescued her from an unhappy home situation. The trajedy is that her deep feelings are not reciprocated.


That's so true. Madge (at that stage) was a lovely person who was kind to everyone - Robin, Juliet, etc - and, also, however much she might have wanted to help Grizel, she was setting up a new business and needed fee-paying pupils and the Cochranes were obvious people to ask. It's always difficult when someone is really important to you but a lot of other people are more important to them than you are, and Madge and Joey had each other, Dick, Robin, Juliet, and later their husbands and children and nieces and nephews.

It's a shame that Grizel couldn't have stayed closer to her other friends. Gerry Challoner vanishes off the scene (lovely to see her in Mrs Redboots's drabble!), and Deira, Juliet, Bernhilda and the others all marry young and end up living in different countries (from Grizel).

Author:  Josette [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Yes, I think it's probably true that Grizel had felt she and Joey had a link as unmarried friends, when most of their other friends were marrying young and having chidren, and that that's what causes her rather extreme reaction to Robin's news.

Though reading some of the posts it strikes me that perhaps EBD did think about Grizel being in love with Jack and it being unreciprocated, but then lost her nerve and instead used the plot later with Grizel, Deira and Deira's eventual husband - "offscreen" and with peripheral characters, there would be much less chance of a slightly racy (for EBD) plot getting out of control!

Author:  Liss [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Alison H wrote:
It'd already been indicated in Camp that Jack was destined to end up with Joey, but it just made me wonder again if maybe EBD'd been undecided and really had thought of possibly pairing him up with Grizel instead ...?



Ooh, that makes me think of my pet theory, where, although Joey was definitely the heroine of the series, Grizel seems more like EBD's *actual* alter ego - maybe it took a bit of effort for her to give lovely Jack Maynard to Joey!! :mrgreen:

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Yes, I think you have something there, Alison. Grizel is EBD's most finely drawn character. She reminds me a little of Jo March, in fact in some ways Joey Bettany-Maynard and Grizel represent the two different sides of the Little Women's heroine. I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

Author:  Tor [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Quote:
although Joey was definitely the heroine of the series, Grizel seems more like EBD's *actual* alter ego


What an excellent/interesting idea! Joey is EBD as she'd like to se herself, but Grizel is how she really is. It would explain why Grizel is such a great character - so vivid and, despite her faults, really rather one of my favourites.

I always thought Grizel was the type of character which 'goes off and writes itself, and wont be managed by the author', and this does suggest a more subliminal input into her as a character.

I love the potential insight in to EBDs subconscious that this could give.... when she set Len on fire, is this a sign that EBD had already tired of her perfect Maynard offspring? I wonder who nicked EBD's man? And if Grizel was forced to plug away at music for all those years because she had to earn her keep, maybe EBD hated writing in the same way... she certainly didn't seem to follow Joey's own advice r.e. planning and list writing! (I hope not though, I want to believe the CS was conceived with love!)

Author:  Carys [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Slightly off topic but I'm sure I read in one of the Tyrol books a scene between Jack and Bill which made me think-Hmmmm....
Maybe everyone in CS land wanted a bit of Jack! :D

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

There weren't really many other blokes around! Jem was snapped up by Madge pretty sharpish, Gottfried was snapped up by Gisela pretty sharpish, Herr Laubach and (I think) Herr Anserl were both married, Eigen was too young and I really can't imagine too many people fancying Mr Denny.

I've now got this strange idea of Jack being like Rene in 'Allo 'Allo, with all these women chasing after him at the same time, despite his lack of "film star looks" ...

It surprises me that Captain Humphries didn't manage to find a new lady - given that EBD thinks that nearly all her female characters want to find husbands!, although that would have pushed Madge out of the "mother to Robin" role. It's a shame he'd died before Margot Venables appeared ...

Author:  Cat C [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Something that occurred to me reading this: after Grizel left Devon in School At - when did she see her father and step-mother again? Unless I'm just being dense, I can't recall any visits, or any news of their death etc. Would have been much more typical Chalet for Grizel's parents to have died, and then have Madge adopt her...

And in terms of Grizel being EBD's alter ego, I read a suggestion somewhere about the thing with Grizel's father re-marrying without letting his bride know he had a daughter was something that happened to EBD!

Author:  KathrynW [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

She goes back in one of the relatively early books when her grandmother dies doesn't she? Her father and step-mother don't die until she's an adult do they?

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Her stepmother died just before Reunion. I can't remember when her father died, or if it was even mentioned, but it was before Carola because that was when the issue of her not having access to her inheritance before she was 35 was mentioned, and well after she left school because he was the one who insisted that she go to music college.

Author:  JennieP [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Which was the bit with Bill and Jack that made you think, Carys?
When you think about it, she couldn't have been that much older than him, so it's entirely plausible.

Anyone got any bunny food handy?

Author:  Maeve [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Cat C said:
Quote:
Something that occurred to me reading this: after Grizel left Devon in School At - when did she see her father and step-mother again? Unless I'm just being dense, I can't recall any visits, or any news of their death etc.

It's in Jo of that her grandmother is ill and she goes home. Discussing Christmas plans with Joey (the Bettanys are to stay with the Mensches), Madge says
Quote:
‘Grizel is going home to England,’ replied Madge. ‘Her grandmother is very ill, and has asked for her; so she is going, and will not return till the end of January.

Probably Grizel doesn't know how ill her grandmother is as she says to Joey
Quote:
‘Oh, Joey,’ she went on, ‘I do wish you were coming with me to-morrow! I hate the idea of being with only Mr Stevens all the time!’
Mr Stevens, father of Margia and Amy, was going to London to see the editor of the great daily paper to which he was foreign correspondent, and had offered to take Grizel so far. Her own father would meet her there, and take her to Cornwall.
‘Mr Stevens is awfully nice,’ said Jo, in answer to her friend’s last remark. ‘And, anyway, you’re going to have weeks more than the rest of us, so I don’t see why you’re grumbling!’
‘I’m not grumbling! But – well – I’d like you and Miss Bettany too,’ replied Grizel. ‘I did want to be with you for Christmas!’
Jo looked at her curiously. ‘You’ll have Easter with us!’
‘I know! But Christmas is such a homey time! ’Tisn’t much of a home at home!’
Joey was silenced She knew that Grizel’s’ stepmother had made home anything but happy for her, just as she knew that Grizel loved her life at school. Finally, ‘We’ll miss you!’ she jerked out. ‘Buck up, old thing!’
And with that Grizel was fain to be satisfied.

Poor Grizel :(

Author:  Carys [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

JennieP wrote:
Which was the bit with Bill and Jack that made you think, Carys?


I can't remember where it was, which is annoying! I was bitten by a PB at the time but like most of my pb's it came to nothing...

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Carys wrote:
JennieP wrote:
Which was the bit with Bill and Jack that made you think, Carys?


I can't remember where it was, which is annoying! I was bitten by a PB at the time but like most of my pb's it came to nothing...


It wasn't in at Camp, was it? I remember getting vague Bill/Jack vibes in the scene with the hornets. And of course, she was trying so hard to impress him in Joey sticks her oar in...

Author:  Tor [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

I was thinking of Joey Puts Her Oar In, too!

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

That's it. But I also think EBD favoured marriages where the male is several years older than the female. Quite a few of the major characters marry men considerably older than themselves. Jem is a fair few years older than Madge, (mind you, his age kept changing throughout the series), Jack is twelve years older than Joey, Len will be at least twelve years younger than Reg, so maybe EBD thought Jack too young for Bill.

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Nightwing wrote:
It wasn't in at Camp, was it? I remember getting vague Bill/Jack vibes in the scene with the hornets. And of course, she was trying so hard to impress him in Joey sticks her oar in...


The bit I always find amusing in the hornet scene in Camp is when they realise what's wrong at the camp, hear the buzzing, start to run to the car, and one of the doctors shouts 'Fling the women in!' - one of the mistresses - Bill? am too lazy to look it up - throws her skirt over her head before jumping into the car. Which, while obviously quite a sensible thing to do, must have also given the men quite a view - although possibly Guider underwear for camping purposes would have been concealing and stout (to stand up to the Middles' laundry), and not Thekla-ish 'frillies'. It's just that it reminds me of those old-fashioned pin-ups where skirts were always blowing up...

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Well, Jem was obviously trying to get Jack and Joey together - he said something along the lines of "Haven't you got anything pretty to say to Jack?" so maybe Nell got jealous and thought that the skirt thing was a good way of trying to catch Jack's attention ...

Sorry, I am having a really, really boring afternoon at work and have gone into Very Silly mode!

Author:  Lisa [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

:lol: :lol:
Just imagining a 'Carry on Chalet Girls At Camp' type scenario

(for those confused - a series of rather dodgy, innuendo-laden films in the 60s and 70s where women's clothes always fall off/fly up over their heads/melt to the accompanying squeals of "ooh!"

Author:  LizzieC [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Lisa wrote:
Just imagining a 'Carry on Chalet Girls At Camp' type scenario


*is now imagining Jem as a Sid James type character, including dirty laugh* :rofl:

Author:  JS [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

What a beautifully succinct description of Carry On land, Lisa. There must be a drabble in there somewhere. Ooh, Matron..... with Kenneth Williams playing Plato??

Author:  ClaireG [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

As someone (sorry forget who) mentioned, Grizel's most significant relationship was with Joey and Madge. I think it's quite telling that she tries to maker the Robin jealous of Joey's engagement, pointing out that she won't come first with Joey any more. Perhaps Grizel trying to inflict some of her own pain on someone else? I've always felt sorry for Grizel, she has never had anyone of her own who really cared for her and so she was jealous of everyone who came between her and the Bettanys. Although Grizel has known Madge for years, she is never adopted in the same way that the Robin and Juliet are and yet in some ways she is even more in need of that love and stability than they are, or at least as much as Juliet. She gets so excited when she thinks Joey is asking her to be Chief Bridesmaid, it must have been upsetting when Joey says that only a sister could be that and then names someone who isn't a sister and who she has known for a lot less time than she's known Grizel.

I also find Grizel one of the most complex characters in the series and agree it's nice to see that not everyone is instantly redeemed by a few terms at the chalet school. There must be a bit of EBD in her for her character to be so deep and believable. At least she gets her doctor in the end!

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

ClaireG wrote:
She gets so excited when she thinks Joey is asking her to be Chief Bridesmaid, it must have been upsetting when Joey says that only a sister could be that and then names someone who isn't a sister and who she has known for a lot less time than she's known Grizel.


You're right. For some reason, I'd never particularly thought of the casual slight there - that Joey claims a blood relationship as necessary for a particular 'prestige' appointment in the wedding, then says in the same breath that she's prioritising over Grizel a very young girl she's known for less time and who has only recently been adopted by the Russells and so been an adoptive sister (though she's more of a niece, technically, I suppose). OK, Joey adores Robin, and has every right to have whoever she likes as her bridesmaid, but she could have put it a bit less slightingly.

Of course, Grizel jumping in with the assumption she will be chief bridesmaid is another indication of her general wrong-headedness for EBD - the real CS girl would never dream of putting herself forward, and reacts with total amazement when picked to be Head Girl/Hobbies Prefect/solo in Christmas play.

Poor Grizel. I am fond of her resentful, unattractive unloved-child ways. I always hope Robin had a bad cold on Joey's wedding day and had to stay in bed being fragile and tubercular, while Grizel got promoted to holding the bouquet, flirting with the best man (whoever that was?) and upstaging the bride.

Author:  Jennie [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

Yes, I think EBD gave Grizel a hard time to make her a foil for Jo, and perhaps did not realise that Jo's behaviour was not always either polite or generous to poor Grizel. There are several examples, such as the one in 'Camp', where Jo was less than seemly in her behaviour to Grizel who was senior to her in the Guides.

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

n
ClaireG wrote:
She gets so excited when she thinks Joey is asking her to be Chief Bridesmaid, it must have been upsetting when Joey says that only a sister could be that and then names someone who isn't a sister and who she has known for a lot less time than she's known Grizel.

Well done for picking up on that. I remember feeling awful for Grizel when I read that first. In fairness to EBD she always emphasised the point that Joey was tactless, and if ever there was an example of tactlessness, in fact, thoughtless cruelty, it was that.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jack and Grizel

LizzieC wrote:
Lisa wrote:
Just imagining a 'Carry on Chalet Girls At Camp' type scenario


*is now imagining Jem as a Sid James type character, including dirty laugh* :rofl:


And Jack as the Kenneth Williams or Charles Hawtrey type.... "OOOOooh Matron!" Except given that he fathers 11 children, perhaps not.... then again....

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