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Informal relations among the staff
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Author:  MJKB [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Informal relations among the staff
Has anyone else noticed that formal relations among the staff, particularly in terms of how they address each other, changes over the series? In the later books, everyone appears to be on first name terms, which is good, and unusual in Go literature. However, I 've just been reading Lavender, set during the war, and Miss Slater (Pamela?) is addressed as just 'Slater' , which seems kind of rude to my modern ears. During the Tyrol years especially when Madge is running the show, relations are quite formal among the staff. The only two who use each others christian names are Madge and Mademoiselle, even Miss Maynard addresses Madge as Madame, and thery are roughly the same age. There is another book in which the staff call each other by their surnames without the title, but I can't remember which.They do the same in the Lorna books, and I must say I find it quite jarring. Any comments?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I would guess that partly it is just as the staff grows things become more formal. When there are only three of you, and two are your bosses, you would tend to stick to first names, but if there are twenty or thirty other people there would be more first name terms. Also, Madame and Madmoiselle started straight off as Heads, but Hilda and Nell would have been called Hilda and Nell before they became Heads, so it may have seemed more natural to use their first names. I think that with the larger staff you do also tend to see friendships a little bit - Kathie and Nancy, Hilda and Nell - so if you have one member of staff calling you by your first name it might seem rude not to ask everybody else too.

Also, I may be getting this wrong, but don't they sometimes use the same nicknames as the girls? Matey particularly springs to mind. That could explain the 'Slater' angle.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Someone - not sure if it's Matey herself or Joey - comments that no-one ever calls Matey "Gwynneth", in Excitements after Matey's sister's death. Hilda is sometimes addressed by the nickname "Nan" in the early books.

I was going to say that maybe it was just a reflection of social change, but even by the late 1950s a lot of people would still have been expected to call each other "Miss/Mr/Mrs [whatever]" at work, and certainly so when speaking to someone more senior ... but they don't at the CS. Actually, I think junior staff members still called Hilda "Miss Annersley" in the Swiss books, but I may be wrong there.

I can understand Madge not wanting people to call her by her first name, because she was very young to be a headmistress and to own the school and must have felt that she had to be on her dignity ... if that makes sense.

The "Slater" thing grates on me too. It'd (sorry if this sounds horribly un-PC :lol: ) seem quite normal for male teachers to call each other by their surnames alone, but it seems rude for female teachers to do so.

The staff all seem more pally generally in the later books. Maybe it was because there was nowhere to go on the Platz so they had to spend all their free time with each other :lol: . Or maybe it was because some of them'd known each other for a long time by then.
Author:  blue1 [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I hate the last name calling too. Aside from Slater, in shocks Miss Everett addresses Miss Burnett as Burnett when she has fallen down the well. That always really annoyed me.

Among the staff in later years we generally see the staff in small groups of friends so naturally they would use first names and among the staff in general it always seems to be senior or older staff who instigate the use of first names when talking among a crowd of mistresses.
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I've always noticed the surnames thing in Shocks when Miss Everett is talking to Peggy Burnett, after the latter has fallen down the well. EBD says explicitly that their exchange, which both forget is being overheard by the girls, is 'slangy', and I think the very traditionally masculine use of surnames is supposed to heighten the impression that the mistresses are slipping into 'off-duty' mode.

It still sounds odd (why would two women ever use surnames only, outside some kind of military outfit?) especially as the use of surnames seems to slip in and out of the series, and isn't consistent. I think what may be going on here is EBD signalling that these are two of the younger mistresses, fairly recently emerged from games and gardening training, and maybe using the forms of address which might have been used among their fellow-students. Training as a gardener and as a games mistress wouldn't have been radical, exactly by the time of Shocks, but maybe for EBD, whose notions get more old-fashioned as the series goes on, these occupations would still have had some flavour of newness, and breezy modern 'non-traditionally-feminine' independent womanhood. She certainly has a lot of CS girls, as the series goes on, going to train for one of these occupations.

Am I wrong in thinking that Harriet Vane sometimes refers to female fellows and students by their surnames only in Gaudy Night?
Author:  andydaly [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I used to work in a fabulously old fashioned place, straight out of Dickens, where the man who was senior partner and also managing partner and had been so since God were a lad, was addressed as Mr by all members of staff. When he retired, the new senior partner and managing partner were only ever addressed by their first names, simply because manners had become less formal in the office, and no-one, having called them by their first names for years, was going to start addressing them by titles.

For the last name thing, some of my male friends would call each other by their surnames, and would jokily do the same thing to me, but not mean anything rude or dismissive by it, it was actually meant as a gesture of inclusion, I think! "Slater" sounds to me like a school nickname. Out of interest, I know that in boys' schools the boys would frequently be called by surname only - did the same thing happen in girls' schools in Britain?
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
andydaly wrote:
Out of interest, I know that in boys' schools the boys would frequently be called by surname only - did the same thing happen in girls' schools in Britain?


I don't know what the answer to your question is, but you may have put your finger on something. Shocks was written within a couple of years of Tom Tackles, and in TT, EBD is very strongly arguing that the CS operates to the same high academic and moral standards as boys' public schools and their notions of honour, fair play etc. I don't ever recall any of the CS girls calling one another by their surnames (although I'm amused at the idea of someone shouting 'Maynard, come here!' and all three triplets and Felicity rushing up, or trying to decide precisely who was 'Bettany Senior' and 'Bettany Junior' at any one point!) as EBD would think it uinladylike, but having the younger staff do so might be supposed to put us in mind of boys' schoolmasters - and to show us that Miss Burnett and Miss Everett are cool-headed and plucky ('masculine') when rescuing/being rescued.
Author:  abbeybufo [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Certainly in girls' colleges in the twenties it was the 'done thing' to call students by their surnames. EJO comments on it in New AG (1923)
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
It still sounds odd (why would two women ever use surnames only, outside some kind of military outfit?) especially as the use of surnames seems to slip in and out of the series, and isn't consistent. - Sunglass.

It's the inconsistency that bothers me too, and that's why I brought the subject up. As I've mentioned before, this surname business occurs in the Lorna books, written about the same time -40's, so maybe it was a passing fad with EBD, I've noticed that tendency in her before.
I remember the first time Madge was thus addressed in Exile by Gottfried Mensch, a mere slip of a doctor, married to the first Head Girl, I got quite a shock. From then on, the Madame title was reserved for the much younger staff and the girls. Up to that point even Bill and, I THINK, Hilda, used the formal title. I'm just childishly curious to know when 'Madame' said to all of them do call me Madge.
Author:  Cat C [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I've always read the 'Slater' thing as being just an individual thing - I know women / girls who are known as a shortened form of their surname (eg a Sarah who was known as 'Geoff' - being the first syllable of her surname), either because they prefer it, or because it was easier to distinguish between the three Sarahs in their class at school and it just stuck.

Maybe Miss Slater didn't like the name Pam, or had always been called Slater for some other reason?

The 'Maynard' thing has just reminded me of the Molesworth challenge drabble, with Margot being referred to as 'Maynard 3' :D
Author:  JayB [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
abbeybufo wrote:
Certainly in girls' colleges in the twenties it was the 'done thing' to call students by their surnames. EJO comments on it in New AG (1923)


Yes, I was going to refer to EJO. I recall the Pixie (I think also in New AG) referring to her flatmates by their surnames when talking to Joy et al.

Miss Slater didn't seem to be especially friendly with anyone at the CS, so maybe no-one felt close enough to venture to use her first name.

It would certainly be considered inappropriate and over-familiar to address someone by her first name if you didn't know her well, or hadn't been asked to do so - especially if she was older or more senior. Using first names all round from the moment you meet someone is a relatively new phenomenon.
Author:  JS [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
This debate is reminding me of how horrified Emma was in Austen's novel when Mrs Elton called Mr Knightley 'Knightley'. It was seen as much too forward.

I think EBD was reacting to contexts and doing what she felt right at the time. For example, she always gave the impression that Miss Everitt was rather mannish, so she would call people by their surname. Someone could probably do a nice piece of academic analysis on what people are called at different points of the books and by whom and the inferences that one (the reader) can draw from them.

Edited to say that when an older lady of my acquaintance (aged 80) is being cool and breezy she'll talk about people - mainly actresses - by their surname in a coterie, 'in' kind of way.
Author:  judithR [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Quote:
Am I wrong in thinking that Harriet Vane sometimes refers to female fellows and students by their surnames only in Gaudy Night?


No. I noticed this too.
Author:  Lisa [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
On a slight tangent, we tend to use first names and 'Mr/Mrs Surname' interchangeably in the staff room, including any nicknames that we know the kids have for us. It's all very good natured, but a funny blend of informality and formality I suppose. The embarrassing thing is when we're out socialising or bump into each other in public and we fall into our "well, hello Mr Smith" role which can come across as quite funny to others, particularly when we're of a similar age and in an informal situation such as t'pub! :lol:
Author:  Selena [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Miss Slater is refered to as "Slater" and Miss Burnett is refered to as "Burnett" on occasions when they are on duty with the girls. Perhaps they simply don't want to use a mistress' first name in front of the girls.

Joey wasn't supposed to use Madge's name in front of the other girls when she was at school.
Author:  Alex [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
For some reason our work ID badges have our title, first initial and surname only. So Dr J Russell, Miss J Bettany; one of my colleagues says "Only my very close friends call me Miss D", which is quite funny, and another of my colleagues called me "Miss A" yesterday.
Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Another place I've noticed random lapses into calling-by-last-name is the Cherry Ames series. It seems to be mostly between contemporaries or friends -- the powers that be virtually always prefix a "Miss" -- and alternates with use of first names or other nicknames. This is as early as Cherry Ames, Student Nurse, so well before the WWII military volumes.
Author:  JS [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Aelx wrote:
Quote:
For some reason our work ID badges have our title, first initial and surname only. So Dr J Russell, Miss J Bettany; one of my colleagues says "Only my very close friends call me Miss D", which is quite funny, and another of my colleagues called me "Miss A" yesterday.


A Japanese friend of mine who had been living in Scotland for a while was expecting a friend of hers over from Japan. They had been close - obviously as she was coming all that way to visit - but had always called each other 'Miss' whatever.

Kathy_S wrote:
Quote:
Post subject: Re: Informal relations among the staff

Another place I've noticed random lapses into calling-by-last-name is the Cherry Ames series. It seems to be mostly between contemporaries or friends -- the powers that be virtually always prefix a "Miss" -- and alternates with use of first names or other nicknames. This is as early as Cherry Ames, Student Nurse, so well before the WWII military volumes.




Yes, and in the Sue Barton books too. I was lying in bed thinking of that last night.
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
Again, it's the inconsistency that puzzles me. The lovely thing about the CS is the informality, everyone on first name terms, in the later books, especially. To my knowledge, she is the only GO writer who does this. It starts in Exile as I've mentioned before, when Gotfried and Bill refer to Madge by her Christian name and continues, intermittently to the end of the series. The books in which some of the mistresses call each other by their surname only are few. I just wondered why the break in continuity.
Author:  Selena [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
JS wrote:
A Japanese friend of mine who had been living in Scotland for a while was expecting a friend of hers over from Japan. They had been close - obviously as she was coming all that way to visit - but had always called each other 'Miss' whatever.


But in Japan and China aren't people usually addressed by their family names? I'm reading a book at the moment called the Diary of Ma Yan, and Ma is her family name, which she is known by at school. Her "first" name, Yan, comes last and even her school friends don't use that.
Author:  Chatelaine [ Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
judithR wrote:
Quote:
Am I wrong in thinking that Harriet Vane sometimes refers to female fellows and students by their surnames only in Gaudy Night?


No. I noticed this too.


I think the students all refer to each other by their surnames in Miss Pym Disposes, by Josephine Tey, which is set at a women's PT college in the 1940s. I always liked the way Miss Slater was addressed by her surname only - it kind of went with how I imagined her personality, rather abrupt and "unsoppy", so to speak!
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Informal relations among the staff
I love the sound of that book. Thanks, one for the mention.
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