The CBB :: View topic - How many languages does Joey speak?

"...I'll never forget the awful feeling of helplessness when I heard Hindustani all round me and couldn't understand a word! I soon picked it up, of course..."

Joey and Madge speak Italian to each other on one occasion when they're discussing Robin's health and don't want anyone else to understand, and I vaguely seem to recall Miss Wilson using it as a secret code language one time as well..

It just goes to show that EDB had little knowledge of other languages.
There is no such language as Hindustani.
Hindi which is the national language was declared so after independence i.e 1947.So the language which Jo heard was not Hindustani.
The problem here is the states are divided according to the language and what Jo heard depends on what part of India Jo was.

The use of the word "Hindustani" annoys me as well but, as Lesley said, it seems to've been largely a case of inaccurate terminology. St John Rivers uses it in Jane Eyre as well.

I'm wondering what exactly EBD meant by "patois" which is a blanket term used for variants from the standard language of the country. So if it appears in Richenda it could have been either Schwizerdütsch, some form of French as spoken in Switzerland or indeed Romansch though this seems less likely as this counts as one of the four national languages of the country, Italian also being one.

She definitely should have picked up at least a little Welsh while living at Carnbach, though - and being Joey, you really would expect her to want to! But the only word she seems to know is 'hanes' - which I have never heard in the context she uses it for, and I've lived in Wales all my life.

Joey's inability to pick up Welsh irritates me as much as Glendower House being referred to as the "English" branch. Both are very much of their time, but show the same casual racism as the reference to "Hindustani" mentioned earlier in the thread.

Likewise, her having picked up Italian from the Italian girls on 'speak whichever language days' seems perfectly plausible, likewise Spanish if she takes the odd lesson from the polyglot Miss Denny (although the only Spanish CS girl I can think of wouldn't have overlapped with Joey?), and a reading knowledge of Latin from school, which would help with the Romance languages.

So it's possible EBD was quite right about Joey learning to speak Hindustani - though Urdu would be more likely if Dick and Mollie lived in the part of India which is now Pakistan, I suppose.

For the sake of argument, though, what languages would have been spoken at the CS during Joey's schooldays that she didn't appear to magically pick up by osmosis? Dutch and Norwegian...?

In one of the early Tyrol books, we're told that Thyra and Ingeborg Eriksen, two new juniors - which suggests that they're aged 11 or under - speak very little but Norwegian, and I can't imagine that anyone else at the CS spoke Norwegian (unless Margia and Amy'd picked up a few words in Bergen). Fancy leaving two little kids in a place where they couldn't communicate with anyone but each other! They must've been terrified :shock:

Finno-Ugric languages are a nightmare. Well, I'm sure they're not to the people who speak them, but they are to me! The only word of Hungarian (other than goulash and Magyar) that I can remember is that honved means army, and I think the only word of Finnish that I can remember is sauna. I can ask for tea with milk in Estonian, though

Alison H wrote:

Which could explain why Ivy Norman had such a wonderful reputation with the Junoirs, if she is able to help two girls not able to speak the languages settle in

Beszélek magyarul! Egy kicsit. Én élt Magyarországon.

I am impressed with the Romany-speaking and it is very 'young Joey'. The Roma will only speak Romany with you or teach you their language if they like you a lot (that is if you are gadjikane (non-Roma) so it's quite in character, what with her talking to and being adored by everyone on the Tiernsee.

I really like the idea of Joan getting a high-flying job with the UN or the diplomatic service, and having her photo in the prospectus as an example of what one can achieve after learning to be trilingual ...

Are you going to give the translation of that phrase? I'm assuming it's Hungarian because I spot 'Magyar' in it.

I seem to remember a Thora Helgerson? Can't find her in a book though.

I always assumed the two little Norwegians were put into the narrative purely to show how big and multicultural the school was getting rather than for any particular plot point, but EBD could equally have forgotten all about them!

This is now going to sound incredibly stupid because I can't for the life of me remember the girl's name, but isn't there someone who was prefects around the same time as Joey who was Norwegian? Or from another Scandinavian country possibly? I could very easily be wrong because I haven't read the earlier books in ages and this is a very dim memory but... Thyra something maybe? Or Thora? :oops:

Referred to as "big" whatever her name is and cast in a male role in a school play..? Ooh, the innkeeper, possibly? Surname may begin with "H" but equally may not. :wink:

I may see if I can look this up myself as I'm not sure anyone's going to get anything out of those clues!

Sarah_G-G wrote:

Referred to as "big" whatever her name is and cast in a male role in a school play..? Ooh, the innkeeper, possibly? Surname may begin with "H" but equally may not. :wink:

I may see if I can look this up myself as I'm not sure anyone's going to get anything out of those clues!

I want to say Sigrid Bjornssen?

I'm pretty sure she's the Joseph to Marie Von Eschenau's Madonna.

IIRC, Paula and Irma von Rothenfels lived in Hungary, despite being members of the Austrian aristocracy. I'm not sure if EBD was making some sort of point about the break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire or what. Or maybe I've imagined that ...

I think they lived in Hungary. It is a very complicated family with branches in Austria, Hungary, Germany and Italy.

Random silly question! Whilst at school, did anyone and their friends use a "special" teenage language?

When I was at university the cleaner in my staircase was Brazilian and trying to learn some English. Her grandmother had given her an English phrase book printed in 1927 which included such choice phrases as:

But what made us laugh was a series of questions about a pencil which included 'do you have your pencil in your pocket?' and 'is it a long sharp pencil'. :lol:

There was a Swedish girl - Astrid someone - in one of the later Swiss books. Mr and Mrs Stevens were supposed to've recommended the CS to some friends in Bergen, who obviously thought that it sounded so wonderful that it didn't matter that no-one there spoke Norwegian!

Joey, though, doesn't fit into the music/maths model does she? Good at music (although nothing is actually said about the theory side of things ever), but poor at maths.

julieanne1811 wrote:
Joey, though, doesn't fit into the music/maths model does she? Good at music (although nothing is actually said about the theory side of things ever), but poor at maths.

Isn't there some link between music, languages and maths? I know that people who are good at music often have a mathematical mind as well, and something is telling me that music often goes with language. Am I correct?

Joey, though, doesn't fit into the music/maths model does she? Good at music (although nothing is actually said about the theory side of things ever), but poor at maths.

If she was good at both music and language, she probably should be good at maths in the real world ...

Quote:

It's certainly true that linguists (ie people who study how language works, rather than people who learn/speak lots of languages) are more likely to come from a mathematical background than from a literary one - something that surprises people, and also makes one wonder why universities decide to provide 'literature and linguistics' courses. People with a literature-type background generally hate formal linguistics.

I've always assumed that, for most of us (who aren't geniuses, and that includes Joey Bettany/Maynard), our abilities are such that it is hard to disentangle what are 'innate' abilities from whether we just had a bad learning experience

When you get to the level of the truly exceptional (and I hope I am not offending anyone by implying that you are not truly exceptional...

Author:	Selena [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:	How many languages does Joey speak?
I am reading A Problem for the CS at the moment and came accross a scene today where Rosamund has been invited to tea with Joey & the triplets and has just told Joey it had been awful at first, turning up at the CS not knowing any French or German. Joey replies that she sympathised because although she'd known French and German since she was little, she'd spent six months with Dick in India after leaving school and Quote: "...I'll never forget the awful feeling of helplessness when I heard Hindustani all round me and couldn't understand a word! I soon picked it up, of course..." It got me thinking about what languages Joey can actually speak. So far it's: English (obviously!) French German Hindustani (presumably fluently???) Romany (from Exile) Latin (as Joey is fluent enough teach this) Italian (I believe lessons in this (possibly from Miss Denny) are mentioned in one of the Tirol books, I can't remember which?) Patois (at least the triplets can speak this in Richenda and I can't imagine Joey therefore not knowing it! Spanish??? (she learns Spanish history in Rebel) That's nine languages!!! But it puzzles me why Joey does not learn any Welsh - not even enough to say thank you to a couple of Welsh children. Is Welsh her nemesis?! Can anyone think of any other languages Joey knew & if she actually did know Spanish?

Author:	Mel [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Doesn't she learn Belsornian from Elisaveta and some Russian which comes in useful when tracking the evil Cosimo? Interestingly, she doesn't pick up any Welsh, either at Plas Gwyn or Cartref!

Author:	Abi [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
She learned Belsornian from Elisaveta. Not sure about Spanish, though. Yes, it is a bit frightening, isn't it? Mind you, some people just seem to have that ability. My sister speaks French and German, a reasonable amount of Russian, some Norwegian, a smattering of whatever it is they speak in Burkina Faso (I forget!) and is currently learning Biblical Hebrew in her spare time!

Author:	Nightwing [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Doesn't she speak a bit of Russian in Princess? She's been getting lessons from Robin's father. I'm not sure how much Romany she actually knew - she only calls out to ask if they want their fortunes told, and perhaps she learned this phrase after having the same thing happen to her on numerous occasions It does seem weird that she never picks up any Welsh - and neither does anyone else, I might add! I'd wonder if EBD rather looked down on it, except that she describes Welsh voices as musical (I think?) which seems an odd thing to say about a language you think little of...

Author:	Selena [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Gosh i'd forgotten about Russian & Belsornian! That's eleven then - i only speak English fluently & am stunned at Joey's ability! Come to think of it, was Robin also partly Polish? Or am i imagining that? Would she have spoken any Polish?

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How many languages does Joey speak? http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7458

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
She learned Russian from Ted Humphries, and understood it well enough to understand Cosimo's conversation with Ternikai. Robin's mother was Polish, but spoke French to Robin. That could've been because EBD was going off 18th century notions of French being used by the Polish upper-classes, but it was probably (and boringly!) just that Ted didn't speak Polish and Marya didn't speak English but they both spoke French, so that was the language they used at home. Robin being half-Polish seems to get totally forgotten about: it's never mentioned during the War, when you'd think it might've been. I don't know why she never picked up any Welsh, although she wasn't in Carnbach for long and it probably wouldn't've been spoken much in the border areas near Howells. Taverton moves between Devon and Cornwall , but if we assume that it was in Cornwall then maybe she'd now be involved in the movement to boost the number of people speaking Cornish: Welsh might've helped her a bit with that. She never asked Flora and Fiona to teach her Gaelic, either. I can't remember any definite reference to her speaking Spanish, but Miss Denny teaches it at the school and Joey seems automatically to pick up any language going. She definitely speaks Italian, which seems to be used as a secret code language : Joey and Madge speak Italian to each other on one occasion when they're discussing Robin's health and don't want anyone else to understand, and I vaguely seem to recall Miss Wilson using it as a secret code language one time as well. Whereas Jem and Mr Flower use Afrikaans as a secret language, a mystery of which I mean to get to the bottom one of these days . Oh, and she speaks Romansch as well, because she tells the triplets about it being similar to Latin and Italian.

Author:	Nightwing [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Alison H wrote: Joey and Madge speak Italian to each other on one occasion when they're discussing Robin's health and don't want anyone else to understand, and I vaguely seem to recall Miss Wilson using it as a secret code language one time as well.. I think it's in the second half of the book with the Balbini twins, during the halfterm trip where the girls get stranded in a bus. Miss Wilson is speaking it to, er, Miss Stewart maybe? and Jo joins in the conversation. Some of the other older girls speak it too, though, just not so well as Joey and the mistresses, so they can't really keep up.

Author:	mohini [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
It just goes to show that EDB had little knowledge of other languages. There is no such language as Hindustani. Hindi which is the national language was declared so after independence i.e 1947.So the language which Jo heard was not Hindustani. The problem here is the states are divided according to the language and what Jo heard depends on what part of India Jo was.

Author:	Lesley [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
mohini wrote: It just goes to show that EDB had little knowledge of other languages. There is no such language as Hindustani. Hindi which is the national language was declared so after independence i.e 1947.So the language which Jo heard was not Hindustani. The problem here is the states are divided according to the language and what Jo heard depends on what part of India Jo was. Before the Partition of British India, the terms Hindustani, Urdu and Hindi were synonymous; all covered what would be called Urdu and Hindi today. - from Wikipedia - cannot say how accurate it is but there seems to be some thought that Hindustandi was the basis for both Hindi and Urdu and could be understood by speakers of both. Joey would have visited before the partition.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
The use of the word "Hindustani" annoys me as well but, as Lesley said, it seems to've been largely a case of inaccurate terminology. St John Rivers uses it in Jane Eyre as well.

Author:	cestina [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
I'm wondering what exactly EBD meant by "patois" which is a blanket term used for variants from the standard language of the country. So if it appears in Richenda it could have been either Schwizerdütsch, some form of French as spoken in Switzerland or indeed Romansch though this seems less likely as this counts as one of the four national languages of the country, Italian also being one. My godfather spoke 11 languages with an extraordinary degree of fluency.....I think once you have one really fluently "under your belt" every language beyond the first becomes easier to acquire. ETA For anyone interested in language acquisition Benny the Irish Polyglot's adventures are well worth following: http://www.fluentin3months.com/

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Alison H wrote: The use of the word "Hindustani" annoys me as well but, as Lesley said, it seems to've been largely a case of inaccurate terminology. St John Rivers uses it in Jane Eyre as well. Yes, I remember being irked by that, too, but the Wiki entry seemed to suggest, as someone said above, that, before Partition, 'Hindustani' was more or less synonymous with what would now be called Urdu and Hindi. I'm never entirely convinced by Joey's capacity for learning languages as EBD describes it, and I am someone who picks up languages with relative ease - having fun with the local dialect of Arabic, which is very subtle and interesting, at the moment. I find Joey's fluency in German and French (and the local dialect) after a year at the CS perfectly plausible, but I never completely buy her relative fluency in advance of the setting up of the CS, apparently based on holidays here and there. (I know it's only there so that the Bettanys look experienced and cosmopolitan compared to Grizel!) Likewise, her having picked up Italian from the Italian girls on 'speak whichever language days' seems perfectly plausible, likewise Spanish if she takes the odd lesson from the polyglot Miss Denny (although the only Spanish CS girl I can think of wouldn't have overlapped with Joey?), and a reading knowledge of Latin from school, which would help with the Romance languages. The others I find less plausible, or maybe it's simply that EBD is putting the bar pretty low for claiming Joey can 'speak' Belsornian or Russian - maybe only at the most basic conversational level, so that she grasps a few words of Cosimo's speech and guesses the rest? It does take more than simply being around a speaker on a casual basis, as EBD always implies, and learning more than ione language simultaneously means you learn each one rather more slowly. I assume the Romany is only a few phrases learned from the New Forest gypsies Miss Maynard seems to be on good terms with, or the Tzigane bands. Less sure about Joey knowing the local dialect from the Gornetz Platz area, when there's so little contact between the expats and the local people compared to Tyrol - although is the Coadjutor a local? The no Welsh thing is puzzling - I've spent five days in Welsh-speaking Wales in my entire life, and even then I can manage greetings and thanks and directions and stuff, so it seems odd that Joey couldn't even thank the Carnbach children!

Author:	Llywela [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
The Coadjutor is a local girl, yes - we are told that she was hired locally by the School advance party ready for when Joey and the family arrived, and was only around 16 at the time with very little English. So Jo could conceivably have picked up bits of the local dialect from her, I suppose. I've always assumed that Joey was only really fluent in a handful of languages - French and German - with just a smattering of the other languages. She definitely should have picked up at least a little Welsh while living at Carnbach, though - and being Joey, you really would expect her to want to! But the only word she seems to know is 'hanes' - which I have never heard in the context she uses it for, and I've lived in Wales all my life.

Author:	ammonite [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
cestina wrote: I'm wondering what exactly EBD meant by "patois" which is a blanket term used for variants from the standard language of the country. So if it appears in Richenda it could have been either Schwizerdütsch, some form of French as spoken in Switzerland or indeed Romansch though this seems less likely as this counts as one of the four national languages of the country, Italian also being one. I seem to remember it described as Schwizerdütsch in one book, that the triplets at least were speaking, so presumably EBD thought that was the local patois to that area of Switzerland. I know someone who is Scottish and English is his fourth language after Gaelic,Latin and Greek. Plus he can speak French, German, and Hindi. Aside from this he is also a qualified pilot, surgeon, magistrate and takes classes in stick making and can play the bagpipes! He makes you feel so inadaquate! I have recently been wondering why Len felt the need to Languages at Uni. She was already fluent in 3 languages, had presumably read most of the classics in their original language etc. Why not just do a teaching qualification?

Author:	Joey [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Llywela wrote: She definitely should have picked up at least a little Welsh while living at Carnbach, though - and being Joey, you really would expect her to want to! But the only word she seems to know is 'hanes' - which I have never heard in the context she uses it for, and I've lived in Wales all my life. Joey's inability to pick up Welsh irritates me as much as Glendower House being referred to as the "English" branch. Both are very much of their time, but show the same casual racism as the reference to "Hindustani" mentioned earlier in the thread. On the other hand, in my dialect, "hanes" does mean "gossip", in addition to the more formal meaning of "history". I'm not sure where EBD got that from, though: in no way can Carnbach or St. Briavel's be described as being anywhere near rural south-West Wales.

Author:	Llywela [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
You know, I'm never entirely sure just where off the Welsh coast St Briavel's is supposed to be, since it is initially described as being in the Irish sea, yet the students are routinely taken to Swansea to see the dentist!

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Joey wrote: Joey's inability to pick up Welsh irritates me as much as Glendower House being referred to as the "English" branch. Both are very much of their time, but show the same casual racism as the reference to "Hindustani" mentioned earlier in the thread. I have sometimes wondered whether EBD simply didn't consider Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic to be languages worthy of Joey's attention, given that she pointedly shows her acquiring virtually all other languages that come within her ken. You could argue, I suppose, that she has other things on her plate when the MacDonalds are living with her, but Biddy O'Ryan (who could plausibly have spoken Irish) and other Irish girls seem like a lost opportunity during her schooldays - especially as Joey seems to actively seek out other nationalities of CS girls for language practice. And how long does Joey live in Carnbach without acquiring even basic conversational Welsh? Again, it looks slightly pointed if she bothered to learn Hindustani in a year in India... For the sake of argument, though, what languages would have been spoken at the CS during Joey's schooldays that she didn't appear to magically pick up by osmosis? Dutch and Norwegian...?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Given that I am a complete dud at languages (failed my German GCSE) and can still get around in German and Russian (stupid GCSE ), some of her achievements impress me more than others! She does speak Russian, in 'Princess', because I think that that may have been where I got the first idea to learn in - that and my best friend also wanting to do it. The Romany I've always imagined is something she would have picked up from the Tzigane; there's the time that she tells the fortune of, IIRC, Gillian, after seeing the Tzigane, so presumably they were going around offering it, which is where she would have heard it.

Author:	Loryat [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Sunglass wrote: Likewise, her having picked up Italian from the Italian girls on 'speak whichever language days' seems perfectly plausible, likewise Spanish if she takes the odd lesson from the polyglot Miss Denny (although the only Spanish CS girl I can think of wouldn't have overlapped with Joey?), and a reading knowledge of Latin from school, which would help with the Romance languages. Yes, Miss Denny is the real star of languages, since apparently she can speak English and French, German, Italian and Spanish all well enough to teach! (And doesn't she also teach Latin occasionally?) And yet she is only ever the 'odds and sods' mistress! In fairness to Joey and EBD, doesn't EBD kind of lay off Joey's incredible linguistic abilities after the Tyrol years? Maybe once she married and had kids she just didn't have time to go about absorbing new languages. And, also, I can see EBD thinking of Gaelic and Welsh as romantic, cultural, Celtic langages that are not for the English. She doesn't seem to look down on them, since she has Welsh and Gaelic spreaking CS pupils. Plus, it's arguable that both languages would be much harder to learn than Joey's other most fluent languages which are all descended from Latin.

Author:	Emma A [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
M M Kaye, who is usually very accurate about India in her novels, uses the term Hindustani to describe the language Winter speaks when trying to defend the feverish Alex Mallory when they are discovered hiding after the first horror of the Mutiny (in Shadow of the Moon). I think it must not be synonymous with both Hindi and Urdu, since in The Far Pavilions, Ash specifically speaks Urdu (he translates a song written by his friend Hamilton into Urdu) as well as a few other Indian languages. That said, both books are firmly set in the 19th century. In her 1947-set Death in Kashmir, I think she avoids the issue by referring to people speaking "in the vernacular", by which she actually means speaking in whichever native language it happens to be. In this book she also gave a pronunciation guide stressing that it would be the pronunciation her characters would have used at that time. So it's possible EBD was quite right about Joey learning to speak Hindustani - though Urdu would be more likely if Dick and Mollie lived in the part of India which is now Pakistan, I suppose.

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Emma A wrote: So it's possible EBD was quite right about Joey learning to speak Hindustani - though Urdu would be more likely if Dick and Mollie lived in the part of India which is now Pakistan, I suppose. Am I completely imagining a reference to 'the Deccan' somewhere in the series? Not that that would narrow it down, really, as it's most of the southern part of central India, as far as I know, or at least the huge chunk between the Eastern and Western Ghats...

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Yes, we're told that Dick doesn't plan to marry because the Deccan is no place for a Western woman. He announces his engagement to Mollie shortly afterwards .

Author:	Selena [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Sunglass wrote: For the sake of argument, though, what languages would have been spoken at the CS during Joey's schooldays that she didn't appear to magically pick up by osmosis? Dutch and Norwegian...? Wasn't there a Hungarian girl mentioned at one point?????

Author:	cestina [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
I think she may well have been able to pick up some Dutch by osmosis but Hungarian? Never in a month of Sundays. It's the only European country where I've looked at a menu and had no idea whether I was staring at starters, main course or puddings! Finland would be the same .....

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Finno-Ugric languages are a nightmare. Well, I'm sure they're not to the people who speak them, but they are to me! The only word of Hungarian (other than goulash and Magyar) that I can remember is that honved means army, and I think the only word of Finnish that I can remember is sauna. I can ask for tea with milk in Estonian, though . I feel very sorry for the people whose first language was neither English, French nor German. In one of the early Tyrol books, we're told that Thyra and Ingeborg Eriksen, two new juniors - which suggests that they're aged 11 or under - speak very little but Norwegian, and I can't imagine that anyone else at the CS spoke Norwegian (unless Margia and Amy'd picked up a few words in Bergen). Fancy leaving two little kids in a place where they couldn't communicate with anyone but each other! They must've been terrified .

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Alison H wrote: In one of the early Tyrol books, we're told that Thyra and Ingeborg Eriksen, two new juniors - which suggests that they're aged 11 or under - speak very little but Norwegian, and I can't imagine that anyone else at the CS spoke Norwegian (unless Margia and Amy'd picked up a few words in Bergen). Fancy leaving two little kids in a place where they couldn't communicate with anyone but each other! They must've been terrified . Which could explain why Ivy Norman had such a wonderful reputation with the Junoirs, if she is able to help two girls not able to speak the languages settle in

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
It's a shame that so few people seem to use their fluency in three languages - other than to come back to teach at the CS, of course. Joan Baker talks about wanting to work hard at languages to improve her chances of getting a good secretarial job, and I think Elinor Pennell does too, but the only time I can remember hearing that someone's actually got a good job because of the CS's emphasis on languages is a vague reference to Verity's solicitor's daughter working at the British Embassy in Paris. & she might've been at the school during the War when they didn't operate the trilingual system anyway . I really like the idea of Joan getting a high-flying job with the UN or the diplomatic service, and having her photo in the prospectus as an example of what one can achieve after learning to be trilingual ...

Author:	cestina [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Alison H wrote: Finno-Ugric languages are a nightmare. Well, I'm sure they're not to the people who speak them, but they are to me! The only word of Hungarian (other than goulash and Magyar) that I can remember is that honved means army, and I think the only word of Finnish that I can remember is sauna. I can ask for tea with milk in Estonian, though . I can do "I love you" in both Finnish and Hungarian (yes indeed, many years ago I was engaged to a Finno-Ugric scholar) and also a phrase from a famous poem "Talpra magyar, hí a haza!" which he told me meant "Take to your heels Hungarians...." On googling it I find the translation is "On your feet, Magyar, the homeland calls!" and it is a call to revolution against the Austrian oppressors. Has a somewhat different meaning to an army (honved!) running away from the battlefield. Oh the perils of translation......

Author:	Selena [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Fiona Mc wrote: Alison H wrote: In one of the early Tyrol books, we're told that Thyra and Ingeborg Eriksen, two new juniors - which suggests that they're aged 11 or under - speak very little but Norwegian, and I can't imagine that anyone else at the CS spoke Norwegian (unless Margia and Amy'd picked up a few words in Bergen). Fancy leaving two little kids in a place where they couldn't communicate with anyone but each other! They must've been terrified . Which could explain why Ivy Norman had such a wonderful reputation with the Junoirs, if she is able to help two girls not able to speak the languages settle in Another EBD-ism i think. Why send two Norwegian girls to the CS (instead of a school where they can speak the language) then never mention them again or have anyone picking up Norwegian? Do you think she intended to develop their characters more / involve them in a main storyline but never got round to it? Whenever I read the bit about those two girls, I think of The Witches by Roald Dahl because the boy is Norwegian.

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
I always assumed the two little Norwegians were put into the narrative purely to show how big and multicultural the school was getting rather than for any particular plot point, but EBD could equally have forgotten all about them! This is now going to sound incredibly stupid because I can't for the life of me remember the girl's name, but isn't there someone who was prefects around the same time as Joey who was Norwegian? Or from another Scandinavian country possibly? I could very easily be wrong because I haven't read the earlier books in ages and this is a very dim memory but... Thyra something maybe? Or Thora? Referred to as "big" whatever her name is and cast in a male role in a school play..? Ooh, the innkeeper, possibly? Surname may begin with "H" but equally may not. I may see if I can look this up myself as I'm not sure anyone's going to get anything out of those clues!

Author:	cestina [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Yes there is Sarah but I am too lazy to go upstairs and check her name.....

Author:	Cel [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Was it Thyra Helgersen or something like that?

Author:	Mia [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Beszélek magyarul! Egy kicsit. Én élt Magyarországon. I am impressed with the Romany-speaking and it is very 'young Joey'. The Roma will only speak Romany with you or teach you their language if they like you a lot (that is if you are gadjikane (non-Roma) so it's quite in character, what with her talking to and being adored by everyone on the Tiernsee.

Author:	cal562301 [ Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many languages does Joey speak?
Mia wrote: Beszélek magyarul! Egy kicsit. Én élt Magyarországon. I am impressed with the Romany-speaking and it is very 'young Joey'. The Roma will only speak Romany with you or teach you their language if they like you a lot (that is if you are gadjikane (non-Roma) so it's quite in character, what with her talking to and being adored by everyone on the Tiernsee. Are you going to give the translation of that phrase? I'm assuming it's Hungarian because I spot 'Magyar' in it. Don't know any Finnish or Hungarian, but I do know a bit of Basque (Euskera) which is another unique language in Europe.