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Honour in GO Books
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Author:  Matthew [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Honour in GO Books

Reading through some of the other GO authors I became struck with the whole idea of honour in the genre. There really does seem to be very strong, and I would say often unrealistic, ideas on honour in books written by a wide range of GO authors including EBD. I especially found it difficult to believe than any girls, let alone the numbers in the stories, would report themselves for minor rule infringements when they were under no suspicion at all. And more than that, would be expected to do so by their friends! Why would anyone in their right minds actually do that? Surely the whole point of minor rule breaking is the getting away with it under the noses of authority element? Were children really that different back then? Or was it just that the author's were allowing their own high ideals on such things influence their writing? I would be very interested to read your ideas on this.

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I think the idea of "honour" was just a lot more important generally in those days, in the early CS period anyway. A gentleman (or lady)'s word was supposed to be their bond, whereas now everyone insists on having everything in writing. Until gambling was legal, gambling debts were "debts of honour" and it was taken for granted that they would be paid even though there was no legal obligation for anyone to do so. There was even - although admittedly not by the 1950s! - the idea of running off to join the French Foreign Legion if your honour had been impugned :lol: .

Realistically, I find it very hard to believe that the average schoolchild would own up to a minor rule infringement, unless the misdeed had come to light and someone else was being blamed unfairly or the teacher was threatening to punish the entire class if no-one admitted responsibility. However, it probably wouldn't have gone down very well with publishers and parents if characters in books had been shown getting away with breaking rules.

The CS code of honour does seem rather complicated sometimes! The idea of not sneaking is common to most schools - "tell-tale-tit, your tongue will split!" - but things like saying it's OK to talk to your friend in prep because, although it's against the rules, you'll probably get caught, but it's not OK to pass a note to your friend because that's trying to hoodwink the prefect/mistress in charge must have been very confusing for new girls!

Author:  GotNerd [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I'm not sure the note thing was that confusing. When I got caught passing notes at school, I certainly felt a lot more guilty about it than when I was told to be quiet and do my work. I think passing notes feels more dishonest, though I'm not quite sure why.

Anyway, there is certainly a difference, in my mind at least, between the two, though I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly what it was.

The owning up part does seem very unrealistic. Unless others were going to suffer, I would never have owned up to my crimes. Although there are sometimes funny consequences of doing so.

At school, I wasn't very good at doing my homework. I was capable, I just...didn't do it. I hadn't done some Classics homework, and the teacher asked me where mine was. I didn't have a lie prepared, and I coujoldn 't be bothered to make one up on the spot, so I decided to tell the truth. I said that I hadn't done it.

"You mean you forgot?" He said.

"No, I just didn't do it."

"Well...why?"

"I just....didn't..."

He had nothing to say to that. :lol:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I think that it would be partly influenced by the fact that these were being published, and so wouldn't be able to be too immoral, but there certainly is a high standard of honour in GO - and BO - lit. But on the other hand we do see some instances where they don't "play the game"; Joey and Co. sneaking off to the ice carnival, for instance.

Personally, I think it's a shame that there isn't such a strong tradtion, IMHO, any more. The basic sense of trust between the CS girls and mistresses is based on the fact that they can be honourable and will own up if they do anything wrong. Plus it is enforced by their peers - for example in 'New Mistress' when Francie doesn't own up until the very last minute.

I don't think that it's that overdone. Maybe there are a few instances where it would have been unlikely for people to actually uphold the honour - fines for slang - but on the whole it seems to be an established tradition in the genre, which I always think (well, ok, then, assume) reflects RL.

Author:  LauraMcC [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I love the fact that they always can be trusted to own up etc, even if it is slightly unrealistic, and that being put on their honour is generally enough to make trhe girls behave. And actually, I must admit that I would usually own up to my crimes, if I ever committed any, as I would feel far too guilty not to. I would probably instantly put my fines in the slang box, too, although I can see why many people wouldn't. :halo:

GotNerd wrote:
At school, I wasn't very good at doing my homework. I was capable, I just...didn't do it. I hadn't done some Classics homework, and the teacher asked me where mine was. I didn't have a lie prepared, and I coujoldn 't be bothered to make one up on the spot, so I decided to tell the truth. I said that I hadn't done it.

"You mean you forgot?" He said.

"No, I just didn't do it."

"Well...why?"

"I just....didn't..."

He had nothing to say to that.


That reminds me of when I studied Latin at school, and my teacher was very against people making up stories as to why they hadn't done their homework. She was forever lecturing us to just own up and say we hadn't done it, if asked. I was very tempted to not do my homework one day, and tell her what you told your teacher, that I just hadn't done it, with no reason attached, but I doubted whether she would have believed me.

Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I'm one who finds the note/whispering distinction fairly arbitrary, as it seems to be erected on the grounds that the more likely you are to get caught, the less dishonourable it is...? (That assumes note-passing is less likely to be discovered than whispering, which - as an experienced schoolgirl note-passer in my day! - I think is nonsense! You have to write a note, fold it up, figure out some way of getting it to the other person by passing, throwing etc etc - plus if you're seen at any point in the operation, there's written evidence!)

Also, I do tend to snort at whoever it was said that the note-passers were stealing because they were 'stealing' the confidence of the prefect or mistress in charge. Hello, far-fetched elevation of minor misdemeanour into Major Wrongdoing...?

Though the single instance of Schoolgirl Honour that strikes me as unnecessary moral niggling is not in EBD but AF - it's when Nicola is being punished for smuggling a forbidden book back to school, by being given a long list of classics to read. Despite the fact that she thinks the punishment is for a ridiculous reason, and it's only a matter of one book on a lengthy list, Nicola, unasked, volunteers the information to Miss Cromwell that she's already read one of the titles. I found this tiresomely goodygoody.

Author:  JB [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I think that although there's a sense of honour, CS pupils do break the rules in a minor way without thinking it dishonourable eg there are many occasions when the younger girls speak in English when they shouldn't be but they wouldn't pay a fine for that unless they were caught. And the same goes for slang. The culture of the school is such that if they do get caught, they pay a fine. I do wonder how this would have actually worked eg did the girls carry small change around with them in case they were fined or did they have to go and get the money from their locker or dormy? If the latter, you'd imagine a few people would forget, although perhaps peer pressure is such that they wouldn't.

I find it right that when a mistress or prefect knows that someone in a class is responsible eg Francie Wilford and the wind-up toy, that person owns up. There's at least one occasion when someone doesn't own up to what's going on and the form prefect intervenes because it's seen as their job not sneaking. When Bride and Lavender fight over who sits at a certain desk, Lavender won't own up to having started it, so Anne Webster tells the mistress what happened.

Outside of that, there are instances when i'm not clear about the line between sneaking and reporting, and I worry if that line's drawn too firmly, it could lead to bullying (although obviously that would never happen in the CS).

Like Alison, I find it difficult to believe that girls would own up to things which hadn't come to light. Perhaps there are lots of successful midnight feasts we don't hear about because no-one was ever caught?

In one of Antonia Forest's Kingscote books (sorry, can't remember the specifics), Nicola Marlow realises that if she follows the course of action she wants it'll go against the rules of honourable behaviour, so she stops. However, at the same time, she curses the code which is tying her hands, something which I don't think would happen in the CS.

Author:  abbeybufo [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Part of this is that girls' schools generally tried to model their code on the perceived honour values of boys' public schools. So authors like EBD - and EJO in her earlier titles [the latter of whom we know read her brothers' books] - tried to show schoolgirls imbued with the same honour code as boys had been shown to hold in the boys' school stories.

I am sure this is at the root of the distinction between 'mischief'/'good' and 'dishonourableness'/'bad'.

Author:  Lesley [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

GotNerd wrote:
I said that I hadn't done it.

"You mean you forgot?" He said.

"No, I just didn't do it."

"Well...why?"

"I just....didn't..."

He had nothing to say to that. :lol:



I wish I'd had your teacher. I was sent out of class in the Upper Sixth (year 13?) because I truthfully told my A'Level History teacher that I had genuinely forgotten about a project we were all supposed to have done over the Summer. It wouldn't have been so bad had I not listened to two or three others tell her that they had left theirs at home - when I knew they had also forgotten as we had all been discussing it just before she arrived. They were all just told to bring it in the next day - I was sent out of class.

I live in hope of someday being able to speak to the woman - and if she asks what the most important thing was that I learnt in her class it would be that telling the truth is not always the right thing - that I learnt to lie through having her as a teacher.

Author:  JayB [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Quote:
Nicola Marlow realises that if she follows the course of action she wants it'll go against the rules of honourable behaviour, so she stops. However, at the same time, she curses the code which is tying her hands, something which I don't think would happen in the CS.

Wasn't that in the cricket match where she could easily have won the match by bowling out the feeble Head Girl with a fast ball? She'd had another moral dilemma in a previous match, where she wondered whether it was fair to use private, family knowledge of Ginty's character and batting skills against her in a school event.

Nicola does set herself, and those around her, quite high standards of honour. She's quite baffled in Autumn Term when she comes across people such as Tim and Lois and Marie who don't have the same standards.

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

abbeybufo wrote:
Part of this is that girls' schools generally tried to model their code on the perceived honour values of boys' public schools.


We're actually told that in Eustacia, when Eustacia tells tales about Margia and Nell Wilson tells her that if she'd told tales at a boys' school then she'd've got a good thrashing from one of the other kids. No wonder Eustacia ran away!

It must be nice to be able to work in an atmosphere of trust. In my old job, a policy was instituted whereby you had to make up any time lost through attending a medical appointment or through arriving late even when it wasn't your fault, because the odd person had been suspected of makings thing up to get time off. I would have thought it was pretty obvious that if someone said they were going to the dentist's twice a year and that their bus/tram/train had been late say once a month that they were probably telling the truth, and that if someone made either excuse every week that they were probably lying, but we were treated as if none of us could be trusted and it really hacked people off :( .

The only time I was ever late for work was when the public transport system ground to a halt after an unforecast fall of snow during the morning rush hour, and it was blatantly obvious that neither I nor any of the others who'd arrived late were lying about it not being our fault but they still made us make up the time!

Sorry, that got a bit off the point ... maybe the girls felt that if they gave the impression they couldn't be trusted then they would be supervised more strictly. In the early years, a big deal's made of the fact that Madge trusts the girls to behave at break without a mistress there to watch them, and when Grizel runs away and Madge says "I thought I could trust you girls," a possible inference is that they'll be given less freedom if her trust is betrayed again. Or maybe CS girls weren't that self-centred and just wanted to be thought honourable, of course!

Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Re AF's depiction of honour in Nicola Marlow, isn't it more Nicola's own, very delicate, personal sense of honour, rather than school honour, in the case of bowling out Val Longstreet or using family knowledge to beat Ginty? She feels a bit sorry for Val, who is fussy and useless as headgirl, and she worries about whether it's fair to use her personal out of school knowledge of Ginty's cricket weak spots.

I think that comes from a different place in her than, say, the more external honour code that says that when your sister is Head Girl, you need to not make her life difficult by acting up when she's exercising authority, and to never betray any 'insider' knowledge gleaned from your elder sisters talking in the holidays. (Which is a situation that comes up all the time at the CS - where lots of prominent characters are sisters and cousins, and in positions of authority over one another, or are relatives or adoptive relatives of staff - and I wish EBD had explored it more!) Yet she's horrified when Tim Keith comes prepared to break that code, and wants all kinds of extra privileges as the Headmistress's Niece. Also, Nicola is quite prepared to break bounds and miss lessons, which don't seem to come under the heading of 'honour' for her in the same way.

Author:  hac61 [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Some of the girls were Guides too, which instilled a sense of honour in them.


hac

Author:  JayB [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Quote:
Also, Nicola is quite prepared to break bounds and miss lessons, which don't seem to come under the heading of 'honour' for her in the same way.

And when she's caught but doesn't want to explain herself it's family standards, rather than school standards, that come into play - she follows Giles's theory that if you don't want to tell the whole truth, it's more honourable to tell a big thumping lie rather than try to weasel out of the situation with half truths (which of course was what Lois and Marie did). When faced with a moral dilemma Nicola usually asks herself WWGD or WWRD. Or sometimes WW Hornblower or Nelson D.

Quote:
Some of the girls were Guides too, which instilled a sense of honour in them.

Sometimes. It didn't work that way at Kingscote. And there again we see Nicola's difficulty when other people don't match up to her own personal expectations. Rightly or wrongly she expected Guides to behave honourably, and wanted nothing more to do with them when they didn't.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Sunglass wrote:
Though the single instance of Schoolgirl Honour that strikes me as unnecessary moral niggling is not in EBD but AF - it's when Nicola is being punished for smuggling a forbidden book back to school, by being given a long list of classics to read. Despite the fact that she thinks the punishment is for a ridiculous reason, and it's only a matter of one book on a lengthy list, Nicola, unasked, volunteers the information to Miss Cromwell that she's already read one of the titles. I found this tiresomely goodygoody.


But I think that is typically Nicola - her peers, even her twin sister, would not have done so. Don't forget, Nicola has her own private Laws of Reading - things like not skipping, and finishing a book once she has started it - and she probably, at this time in her life, doesn't re-read. Plus even though she thinks she hates Dickens, she probably actually quite liked the idea of a reading-list - she managed to finish it before the end of term, after all.

Author:  JayB [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

The real punishment there, for Nicola, is being put on her honour not to read anything of her own choice until she's finished the list. Crommie presumably knows her pupils well enough to know that Nicola will scrupulously observe that, and won't even have a quick dip into Hornblower (which she does re-read, I think, doesn't she?) in between Dickens and Scott.

Whereas Tim would probably read what she chose regardless. And maybe so would Lawrie, if she could convince herself that Crommie didn't really mean that, and she had to read xyz because (insert some reason connected with Lawrie being the next Dame Sybil Thorndike).

Author:  Mel [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Tom Gay is one who always seems to be on the alert for dishonourable behaviour from girls, thanks to her father's education. She comes over as a bit of a prig in the early books especially over nudges and mimed requests in Prep. Surely the whole idea of silence in Prep is to ensure peace and quiet? Then better a nudge for a 'bungy' than disturbing everyone with a loud request and subsequent, still loud, ticking off from prefect. Also, I can't imagine confessing to Matey that I had sat on a blouse. Poor Rosalie is forced into this by Tom!

Author:  Sunglass [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Mel wrote:
Tom Gay is one who always seems to be on the alert for dishonourable behaviour from girls, thanks to her father's education. She comes over as a bit of a prig in the early books especially over nudges and mimed requests in Prep.


Yes! It seems at times as though it's only the fact that Tom's ideas of honour, like her pre-CS education and her appearance, are 'masculine' that prevents her from just seeming priggish and a bit holier-than-thou. If it wasn't that EBD has clearly decided that she's an admirable character (as indeed she turns out to be, in fairness), I could easily imagine the other CS girls finding her tiresomely goody-goody and telling her to lighten up!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

OK, here's the kind of episode that I get confused over, as regards the distinction between 'sneaking'/telling tales and justifiable reporting or truth-telling to a straight question when asked by a mistress. This is the episode in Lintons where Thekla gets Joyce out of bed to try to bully her into sharing her enmity towards Joey. Cornelia hears a noise, comes out and finds them behind a window curtain, and exclaims so loudly Bill wakes up and discovers the three of them.

When Bill interrogates them in her room, Cornelia does her best not to get the other two in trouble, saying truthfully that she heard a noise in the corridor, and maybe the other two did too. Thekla lies and says she heard Joyce in the corridor:
Quote:
The other two girls were startled into silence. Cornelia, knowing where she had found the two, and how, was so taken aback at this flagrant falsehood that she had nothing to say. As for Joyce, that lie of Thekla's ended the last feeling of friendship between them. ..
“I didn't hear any noise in the corridor, Miss Wilson. I-” Then she came to a sudden full stop. She could not tell the exact truth, for that would mean giving Thekla away, and whatever the Prussian might have done, Joyce was too well trained in the schoolgirl's code to tell tales. So she stopped short and went red.


The next morning, Joyce will only say, truthfully, that she heard a 'whispering sound' in her cubicle, but won't implicate Thekla, and neither will Cornelia actually say anything directly, though she hints very obviously:

Quote:
Cornelia deliberately turned round, and looked at her. Then she set down her mug with decision. Thekla changed colour. She was only sixteen, and though she could tells lies quite brazenly, there was something in the other girl's action that upset her.


Miss Wilson doesn't appear to believe Thekla's story, and sends for Margia, as head of her dormitory:

Quote:
“Did you hear any noise last night after you had gone to bed, Margia?” asked Bill, plunging headlong into things.
“Yes, Miss Wilson,” said Margia. “I heard the dormitory open and Thekla come in. I knew it was Thekla from the cubey she went to. Then I heard you follow, and, of course, their voices in the corridor. But as I knew you were there, I thought I had better not interfere.”
“I see. Nothing else?”
“No, Miss Wilson.”
“Thank you. You may go - Oh, wait a moment! Are you sleeping better now?”
Margia, who had been suffering from slight insomnia lately, nodded. “Yes; much better, thank you.”
“Still wake easily, I suppose?”
“Fairly easily, Miss Wilson.”
“And do you find it an easy matter to see that your dormitory get up when the rising bell goes?”
“Yes, thank you. As a rule it is quite easy.”
“Who are the most difficult to rouse?”
With her eyes wide with wonder, Margia replied, “Thekla and Hilda are the worst, Miss Wilson. I had to shake Thekla this morning,” she added.


Bill renews her direct questions to Joyce, and tells her to break the code of tale-telling:
Quote:
You may as well tell me,” she added, “for I intend to know, and you will all stay here till I do. Also, though the code of never telling tales is, as a rule, quite justifiable, I am afraid you must break it for once.


Then Cornelia breaks in while Joyce is still hesitating to tell on Thekla:

Quote:
. “Joyce won't tell you, but I am going to report as head of her dormitory that when I heard the sound of voices in the corridor and went out, I saw a strange bulge in the curtains over the window where we were when you came. I pulled them apart, and Joyce and Thekla were both there, sitting in the window seat; Thekla had hold of Joyce, and Joyce looked scared our of her wits.


Only then does Joyce admit this is true, but only because of what Cornelia has just said:

Quote:
Seeing that Cornelia had already given away things most handsomely, Joyce looked up, very flushed and uncomfortable. “Corney is right, Miss Wilson. But I'd never have told you if she hadn't got it first shot,” she said.
“So I gather,” replied Miss Wilson dryly. “I wish you people would try to realize that there are time and seasons when the schoolgirl code cannot be followed implicitly.


Leaving aside Joyce, Cornelia and Margia are both 'good' CS girls who presumably have the same ideas about schoolgirl 'honour' and are both heads of dormitory. Why does Cornelia refuse for quite some time answer straight questions from a mistress that would implicate Thekla (but protect Joyce), but Margia does so immediately, even volunteering information about having to shake Thekla awake, and is not seen as telling tales for doing so? What exactly does Bill mean about the 'schoolgirl code' not being followed implicitly all the time? That you must always obey it unless a mistress tells you not to?

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Do we have any lawyers present to sort this out - it all sounds very complicated!!

I assume Margia didn't think she was telling tales, because all she was really saying was that Thekla had got up in the night and she knew that Bill was already aware of that as she'd caught her. Cornelia presumably felt that this was a case for "reporting" as Joyce was about to get the blame for something that (going off what Corney had seen) Thekla had bullied her into, but she wanted to give Thekla the chance to do the decent thing and own up first. When Thekla didn't, and Joyce wouldn't tell, Corney felt that she was right to step in.

It's a minefield, really :roll: - it's no wonder that someone like Eustacia, who had never been to school before and never even had much to do with other people her own age, didn't understand what it was and wasn't OK to do. Having said which, it's like that in a lot of organisations - how many of us have fallen foul of someone in a new job or in a club/society we've just joined over inadvertently breaching some etiquette which we couldn't possibly have known existed?! Deliberately lying so that someone else gets the blame for something you've done wrong, which is what Thekla does here, must be wrong in anyone's book, but I can understand Eustacia not understanding why she was wrong to tell tales on Margia for doodling in her hymn book or whatever it was.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I think in the case of Margia, it could be seen as being more unofficial - a check-up on her health, and a small aside just to pass on names for Matron to watch over in case they're not sleeping well and won't tell her. Presumably she doesn't expect it to get anyone into trouble.

Whereas Corney, not knowing anything about what went on to begin with, tries to just shield them both from trouble as much as possible, and then tries to get Thekla to confess because that's the more honourable thing to do, but isn't afraid to step in herself when she sees that it isn't going to happen.

And Joyce, I suspect, was still young enough not to fully understand the distinction.

((I hope that provides an, at least partially logical, explanation? Though I suspect not!))

Author:  Cel [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Leaving aside Joyce, Cornelia and Margia are both 'good' CS girls who presumably have the same ideas about schoolgirl 'honour' and are both heads of dormitory. Why does Cornelia refuse for quite some time answer straight questions from a mistress that would implicate Thekla (but protect Joyce), but Margia does so immediately, even volunteering information about having to shake Thekla awake, and is not seen as telling tales for doing so?


I haven't read this book in a long time, so I could be wrong, but at this stage did Margia have any idea what had gone on the previous night, besides the fact that Thekla had been caught out of bed, which Bill already knows? If not, then I don't think her answering Bill's questions could be construed as telling tales - she could not herself have made the link between Thekla being a very deep sleeper and the fact that she claimed to have been woken by a noise in the corridor, as she doesn't know this detail.

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Margia wouldn't have known the details of the incident (presumably it would have been dishonourable for Cornelia to have told her them when she went to fetch her?), but Joyce and Thekla are both present and clearly in trouble, and Bill's first question to her - I was just re-reading this for the Lintons thread - is whether she heard anything last night after she'd gone to bed, to which she says yes, she heard Thekla come in and go into a cubicle. So it's not masquerading as a sort of health check with the heavy sleepers question on the side. Plus if Margia knows Thekla was out of bed in the middle of the night and is now being grilled by Bill, then she must know perfectly well that volunteering the information that she had to shake Thekla awake this morning incriminates her...?

But here's the bit that wouldn't stand up in a court of law - Margia never actually saw Thekla, with her own eyes she just says she knew it was Thekla because of the cubicle she went to (Joyce's)! Admittedly, Joyce and Thekla are sort-of friends at this point, but on the basis of what Margia heard, it could have been anyone going into Joyce's cubicle. Plus I think any lawyer would throw 'I didn't actually see her, but I knew it must be Thekla' out of court, especially when the claim is from someone who had only just woken up in the middle of the night and was possibly still half asleep...

Anyway, OT. I don't get the 'schoolgirl honour' logic of this episode either! I appreciate that Margia clearly isn't breaking the tale telling code, but I'm not sure what makes her readiness to answer a straight question from Bill different from Cornelia's reluctance to do so...?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Sunglass wrote:
But here's the bit that wouldn't stand up in a court of law - Margia never actually saw Thekla, with her own eyes she just says she knew it was Thekla because of the cubicle she went to (Joyce's)! Admittedly, Joyce and Thekla are sort-of friends at this point, but on the basis of what Margia heard, it could have been anyone going into Joyce's cubicle. Plus I think any lawyer would throw 'I didn't actually see her, but I knew it must be Thekla' out of court, especially when the claim is from someone who had only just woken up in the middle of the night and was possibly still half asleep...


Margia is head of Thekla's dormitory, so they would be going into Thekla's cubicle and presumably she knows who sleeps where in the dormy?

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

Margia is head of Thekla's dormitory, so they would be going into Thekla's cubicle and presumably she knows who sleeps where in the dormy?


Sorry, my bad! I was thinking Margia was head of Joyce's dormitory, rather than Thekla's. You're right, of course. :oops:

I was also thinking, though, about Joyce's part in this - in an obvious way, it's much clearer why she won't 'sneak' on Thekla. But given that at this point (I think) Gillian, if not Joey, has made it clear how badly her expulsion might upset their seriously ill mother, you'd think that a desire to exonerate herself for her mother's sake - given that she's innocent for once - would take priority over 'no sneaking'...?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Presumably she didn't think that being caught out in the corridors would be enough to warrant being expelled; or, perhaps, she just hadn't thought of that side of. We are always told that she's heedless, after all. (At least, I think we are :oops:)

Author:  Cel [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Sunglass wrote:
Plus if Margia knows Thekla was out of bed in the middle of the night and is now being grilled by Bill, then she must know perfectly well that volunteering the information that she had to shake Thekla awake this morning incriminates her...?


But (and sorry to keep harping on this point) clearly Margia knows that Bill is well aware that Thekla was out of bed, as she heard Bill accompanying her back to the dorm during the night. So the fact that Thekla was exhausted from lack of sleep and had to be shaken awake isn't new information for Bill, and therefore Margia wasn't getting her into any more trouble than she was already in.

Ok, I'll stop now :oops:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

In fact, put like that Cel, I can picture her saying it in a most annoyed and long suffering fashion, forgetting that this is Bill she's talking to!

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

I think you need to remember that at the CS, at any rate, there's a difference between reporting and sneaking. Margia, in a position of authority as head of a dormy, has a responsibility to report any misdeeds and to answer Bill's questions, just like a prefect would. (Prefects, remember, represent the Head to the students, but also the students to the Head: it's a fine line to walk!) Joyce, on the other hand, has no authority, and so her allegiance is seen to be to her classmates and not to the staff.

Author:  Abi [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Nightwing wrote:
Joyce, on the other hand, has no authority, and so her allegiance is seen to be to her classmates and not to the staff.


I think this is very true. Also, Joyce is fairly immature and might perhaps have found the distinction between 'sneaking' and 'reporting' difficult, especially if she'd come from a school where even reporting was frowned on - plus I can imagine her adoring friends at her previous school sacrificing themselves to save her from trouble and Joyce thinking that was what you had to do!

As regards Margia, it's fairly clear that (as Cel said!) she knows that Miss Wilson already knows about people being out of bed:

Quote:
"I heard the dormitory door open and Thekla come in. I knew it was Thekla from the cubey she went to. Then I heard you follow, and, of course, there were voices in the corridor. But as I knew you were there, I thought I had better not interfere."


I think Cornelia wanted to give Thekla a chance to tell for herself; also she wasn't entirely certain exactly what had happened and was reluctant to tell if she didn't have to. But in the end she did - she obviously knew she couldn't let Thekla get away with it.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

That's what I meant, sorry if I didn't explain myself very clearly - Margia is not volunteering any information which Bill doesn't have already, and Cornelia gave Thekla the chance to own up but then felt she had to intervene as otherwise Joyce would have taken the blame for something that wasn't her fault.

Also, Cornelia isn't gaining anything personally by what she's saying, whereas Joyce would have been getting herself out of trouble by getting Thekla in it, even though it was Thekla's fault ... no wonder some people got confused :roll: .

I don't think Joyce was in any real danger of being expelled. Although she'd already been in trouble over the Miss Norman affair, getting up and leaving the dormitory in the night wasn't a really major offence. Thekla was expelled for trying to get someone else into trouble rather than for being caught wandering about in the night.

IMHO, the offence closest to Thekla's elsewhere in the series was Margot Maynard's blackmailing of Ted. Admittedly she didn't get very far with it, but that was only because Mary-Lou intervened: the intention was there. I don't think the word "dishonourable" is ever used there, though - and it certainly should've been.

Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

You lot are all much better than I am at grasping the nuance of when reporting becomes sneaking! Clearly you win at schoolgirl honour, and I would, entirely innocently, be the bit where Eustacia or Thekla (can't remember) entirely accidentally rats on someone because she doesn't realise she's not supposed to... :oops:

I'm not entirely convinced, though, that -- if Joyce hadn't been cleared by Cornelia and Margia's testimony -- being out of bed at night would have counted as a minor offence in the record of a girl who had already been threatened with expulsion.

I think Lintons is one of the books where the school authorities don't (in my view) make enough of a distinction between the harmless fun of the midnight feast (the fact that everyone gets sick or has nightmares always seems to me a bit much, as though EBD was absolutely determined everyone would be caught and sufficiently punished on top of the school punishment) and the much nastier one of continually bullying a 'weak' teacher. I think getting dosed, being lectured on their greediness and thoughtless and untrustworthiness, being on punishment food for a week and having an entire half-term's work of pocket money confiscated is a bit much for a victimless midnight feast. (Or that would have been victimless, if EBD hadn't decided to rush in the Deus ex Machina of violent bilious attacks!)

All I'm saying is that in Joyce's shoes, I wouldn't have let the honour code stop me from exonerating myself, knowing I was completely innocent, with the threat of expulsion and upsetting my sick mother hanging over me..

Author:  JayB [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Quote:
....clearly Margia knows that Bill is well aware that Thekla was out of bed, as she heard Bill accompanying her back to the dorm during the night. So the fact that Thekla was exhausted from lack of sleep and had to be shaken awake isn't new information for Bill, and therefore Margia wasn't getting her into any more trouble than she was already in.


Margia does, unwittingly, discredit Thekla's story of having heard a noise in the corridor and gone to investigate. She, a light sleeper, heard nothing - and then she goes on to indicate that Thekla is a very heavy sleeper, so it's unlikely that Thekla would have heard something when Margia herself didn't. But since Margia didn't know what story Thekla had told, she didn't know that was what she was doing.

And Bill already didn't believe Thekla's story, so it's not as if Margia was getting her into trouble she wouldn't otherwise have been in.

Schoolgirls themselves aren't always sure where the line between 'sneaking' and 'reporting' falls. In one of the Springdale books, Primula reports a particularly nasty act by an unpleasant girl. Anne (the victim) worries that Primula was in fact sneaking. Primula replies that the Head didn't think so, and she is known to be dead against anything resembling sneaking. All the girls involved were prefects at the time.

Author:  Matthew [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

The whole Joyce/Thekla situation is one I fail to understand at all. How on earth is it dishonourable to defend yourself from false accusations? Can anyone explain that to me? If Thekla had stayed silent then it would have been one thing but once she starts trying to get Joyce into trouble, surely it's only common sense for Joyce to speak?

Author:  Abi [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

But children don't always have much common sense, especially if they think their friends might hate them for trying to save themselves. It may not be logical but I do think it's realistic that the whole idea should take on an exaggerated form.

Actually, coming to think about it, there's a parallel with RL situations where people don't dare admit a bully is hurting them because they're afraid of what might happen. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but there is the peer pressure element.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Here's one I think is made rather heavy weather of in New House, where Matron Besley has confiscated books in cubicles and violated the prefects honour by going into their private rooms to take their books too:


Quote:
‘Report to Bill—I think we ought,’ said Simone, with a wag of her small head which loosened part of the still precariously pinned-up roll of black hair which caused her so much trouble since, ten months ago, it had been neatly bobbed.
‘How can I possibly do that?’ asked Jo irritably. ‘Can’t you see the picture! “Please, Miss Wilson, I wish to report that Matron has been going into our rooms and confiscating our books.” I should only get ticked off for impertinence. Bill would never listen to tales about another member of the Staff from just a schoolgirl—unless it was anything frightfully serious, that is. No mistress worth her salt would.’


Now, this seems to me to be a slightly delicate situation, certainly - but delicate for the school authorities who should have explained such rules clearly to Matron Besley in advance, not for Joey and co. To my mind, there's nothing of 'telling tales' in the prefects simply saying to Bill as head of the new house that there's clearly been some misunderstanding about early morning reading, and they felt she should liaise and explain the situation to her new colleague, as obviously they can't, really. The rule about the prefects' rooms being exempt from matron's checks also needs to be explained, but, whether or not the prefects think this all comes from Matron Besley's personal malice, it could easily be finessed by everyone behaving as though she means well, and that the school is at fault in not having explained all the rules to her. That way, no one loses face.

I know it needs to escalate for plot purposes anyway, but for four 'grown up' senior prefects to appear to think that handling this kind of situation involved 'tale telling' on one staff member to another seems uncharacteristically childish, when none of them are...?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

But I do think that Bill would have been cross about it if Joey had gone to see her. For starters, Joey isn't the most tactful of people, and secondly how would you feel about being told how to do your job by someone who really knows very little about it (ok, personal gripe, seeing as I've even had complaints about the length of my hair where I used to work. As if I could do anything about that!)?

I agree that maybe if the situation was handled very delicately that might have solved it, but in all reality Joey would have caught Bill in a bad mood, or said something that was misconstrued, or Matron Besly would have got very upset over it (well, moreso than she did) and Joey would have been blamed for going over her head etc. And if it had worked out, we'd probably all be going "Oh, how neatly and unrealistically that got sorted out!" :lol:

Author:  Loryat [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:


Now, this seems to me to be a slightly delicate situation, certainly - but delicate for the school authorities who should have explained such rules clearly to Matron Besley in advance, not for Joey and co. To my mind, there's nothing of 'telling tales' in the prefects simply saying to Bill as head of the new house that there's clearly been some misunderstanding about early morning reading, and they felt she should liaise and explain the situation to her new colleague, as obviously they can't, really. The rule about the prefects' rooms being exempt from matron's checks also needs to be explained, but, whether or not the prefects think this all comes from Matron Besley's personal malice, it could easily be finessed by everyone behaving as though she means well, and that the school is at fault in not having explained all the rules to her. That way, no one loses face.

I know it needs to escalate for plot purposes anyway, but for four 'grown up' senior prefects to appear to think that handling this kind of situation involved 'tale telling' on one staff member to another seems uncharacteristically childish, when none of them are...?


To me this actually makes a lot of sense. As far as I can see, it's more about the fact that 'telling' on Matron would put Bill in an awkward position, as then she'd have to undermine the Matron's authority on the basis that a girl who's not even left school yet has told her that Matron's doing something wrong. I think Joey would grasp this but be unable to express it clearly. It's not so much that it would be seen as sneaking, as that it creates an awkward situation. I think it's believable that Joey would anticipate that, yet not be mature enough to sense that perhaps this is something that should be dealt with, no matter how awkward it will be.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Honour in GO Books

Speaking of new staff not knowing the rules, why was it OK for the Middles in Rivals to carry on walking in twos along the path, meaning that the St Scholastika's girls had to walk on the sodden grass and get their shoes muddy? We're told that Miss Stewart didn't know the rules and therefore didn't tell them to get into single file - although surely it should've been flaming obvious that that was what she should tell them to do! - but wasn't it dishonourable to take advantage of a new mistress's ignorance? & if that was the usual rule then surely they were all breaking it anyway, even if they hadn't been expressly told what to do? As it was, the Saints got muddy, the CS Middles got told off, and Con presumably looked very stupid for not telling them to move over so that there was room for the Saints to get past without walking on to the grass.

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