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Guides
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Author:  Maeve [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Guides

Quote:
Guides followed, those unfortunates who for one reason or another did not belong either going for a walk if it was fine, or working under Matron if it were not.

That's from Tom but variants of the sentence occur in many other books and every time I come across it I am puzzled as to why some people didn't belong. I don't know much about Guides -- are there moral, religious, philosophical or practical reasons why someone might not join? In a small, closed community like the CS, it certainly seems as if one would have missed out on a lot of the fun and belongingness by not being one.

Author:  CBW [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
In a small, closed community like the CS, it certainly seems as if one would have missed out on a lot of the fun and belongingness by not being one.


particularly if worling with Matron was the alternative. Seems a tad unfair to get what would normally be a punishment just for not belonging to guides

Author:  Kathy_S [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think at the time there were two main objections to Guides. The most prevalent claim was that they were unladylike -- all that campcraft, for example. Parents on that side might well demand that their offspring spend the time in something like needlework with Matey. :? At the other end of the spectrum, there would have been parents of a pacifist turn of mind who objected to the military drill that was an integral part of the program early in Guiding.

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

There were objections to the Scouting/Guiding movement by people who interpreted it as being overly militaristic and imperialistic - Baden-Powell himself was very much an imperialist - and being linked with religion and the establishment and so on. I don't know if it's changed now, but I remember that when I was a Guide :D in the mid-1980s you still had to swear an oath to do your "duty to God" and "serve the Queen".

I can't imagine that many of the sort of families whose daughters went to the CS would have taken that view, though - unless they were families from outside Britain/the Commonwealth who, like Thekla in her first term, they took the view that it was a British/Commonwealth-only thing.

Then there'd have been people who just didn't like the idea of camping and marching and so on. We went on a Guide camp on the Pennine Moors once and it rained for 4 days: put me off camping for good!

Must've been very boring for the people who weren't Guides, though, as Maeve said. It was certainly very mean to make them "work under Matron", which was usually something used as a punishment!

Author:  Miriam [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

There are two girls who we are told did not belong to Guides; Thekla and Betty Wynne-Davis.

As far as I remeber, Thekla had refused on principle to join, since she disapproved of anything so English. Betty had been a member, but resigned from her company when she quarraled with Elizabeth. I think that Hilda Hope was also not a member, since she didn't appreciate the vigourous work that guides demanded. I'm not sure whether Eustacia joined or not either.

The girls who we are told did not join are the girls who are seen as flawed in some way, and not part of the real spirit of the CS. One could argue that in EBDs eyes, they were automatically deserving of punishment fro not joining!

I suppose the point was that they didn't want to leave this group of girls totally unsupervised for a large part of Saturday morning, but they also didn't want to burden one of the mistresses with losing their free Saturday mornings by having to make plans for and amusing this group. Thus it fell on Matron to 'usefully occupy' and keep an eye on them. Sewing suited all ages, and was helpfull to her and the school, so that's what she did! And a wallk was always a healthy and useful thing to do. At the same time, I imagine the atmosphere was lighter than if you were there for a punishment, and a lot more chatter etc was allowed.

One could also see it as a subtle form of pressure to encourage the girls to join the Guides.

Author:  Emily [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

I remember hearing that Guides or similar movements are unpopular in and around Germany because they are too reminiscent of the Hitler Youth.

Author:  LizzieC [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

Alison H wrote:
I don't know if it's changed now, but I remember that when I was a Guide :D in the mid-1980s you still had to swear an oath to do your "duty to God" and "serve the Queen".


So did mine when I was a Brownie and then a Guide in the mid 1990s.

Wikipedia suggests that the promise is the same today.

Guide Promise wrote:
I promise that I will do my best,
To love my God,
To serve the Queen and my country,
to help other people,
And to keep the Guide Law.

(Guide Promise Source)

Author:  Mia [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

LizzieC wrote:
Wikipedia suggests[/url] that the promise is the same today.

Guide Promise wrote:
I promise that I will do my best,
To love my God,
To serve the Queen and my country,
to help other people,
And to keep the Guide Law.

(Guide Promise Source)


No, it's different; one loves one's God, rather than automatically a Christian God...

Author:  Kathy_S [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject: 

Emily wrote:
I remember hearing that Guides or similar movements are unpopular in and around Germany because they are too reminiscent of the Hitler Youth.

I wouldn't be surprised, but it doesn't seem very fair, given that Hitler shut down the Scouts and Guides, and forced their members into the Hitler Youth.

Author:  Lesley [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

My promise - made in 1971 :oops:

I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God.
To serve the Queen and help other people
And keep the Guide Law.


And that needed no act of remembrance it was there straight away! :lol:

Author:  Liane [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mine was the same as Lesley's (in the 90's)

Author:  Sugar [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

I promise that I will do my best:
To love my God,
To serve the Queen and my country,
To help other people
and To keep the Guide Law.

Current Guide Promise.

MY God - whatever faith you belong to. It's also changed to Gods for faiths that worship multiple deitys. The God/Gods that the person making the promise believes in.

My country. - Can be changed to "the country in which I live" for asylum seekers/refugees and the like.

If you go to a Regional/National large scale Guiding event you will often hear a generalised stumbling over the new bits by the Adult Guiders who still have the "traditional" promise ingrained in their psyche. I always forget the last bit of the Guiders promise cos it's optional.

Author:  Emma A [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 

I think it was in Mrs Redboots' drabble The Marlows at the Chalet School where Nicola refused to join Guides (after the huha at Kingscote) and objected to the fact that not joining Guides was treated as though it needed punishment. It was something I'd never considered before, but EBD did treat Guides as being so fun and useful that no right-minded girl would want to stand out.

Author:  JS [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

I was in the Girls Brigade AND the Guides, until the Girls Brigade found out and forced me to choose. I chose the Guides, mostly because they didn't make me choose, but also because I liked the option of doing lots of badges, whereas there was only one a year in the Brigade.

Author:  MaryR [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Kathy_S wrote:
At the other end of the spectrum, there would have been parents of a pacifist turn of mind who objected to the military drill that was an integral part of the program early in Guiding.

That was true in Dorita Fairlie Bruce's Nancy books as well. She has some characters who object to the drill and the uniforms of the Guildry movement, claiming they were too militaristic. Though in Bruce's books, drill actually seems to be part of the ordinary school curriculum.

Author:  Jenefer [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

In Judy the Guide, the girls had to have permission from their parents before they could join. Several did object, including one who thought it an unsuitable activity for girls.

Not all girls enjoy Guides and it should be a voluntary activity. However the alternative at the Chalet School was dreadful.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

Emma A wrote:
I think it was in Mrs Redboots' drabble The Marlows at the Chalet School where Nicola refused to join Guides (after the huha at Kingscote) and objected to the fact that not joining Guides was treated as though it needed punishment. It was something I'd never considered before, but EBD did treat Guides as being so fun and useful that no right-minded girl would want to stand out.


Not mine, alas - I read that drabble, though (I seem to remember it was never finished and ended in the middle of a fearful cliff!), and it did rather inspire me to write The Marlows at St Mildred's because I felt that Nicola and Lawrie would do well at the Chalet School, rather than badly, as they had in that drabble!

Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

JS tell us more! How dramatic! Was it terribly serious Court-of-Honour-ish?

Author:  JS [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

Dreaming Marianne wrote
Quote:
JS tell us more! How dramatic! Was it terribly serious Court-of-Honour-ish?


It was just all a bit bizarre. The Girls Brigade was at my own church and I'd been a member for years. Then I joined Brownies then Guides at another church with some girls from school. I'd no idea of keeping it secret (why would I?) but then the dates clashed on something. I didn't realise I was doing anything wrong but the Brigade were furious and said I couldn't be both - so I decided I didn't want to be involved with them any more. So, not dramatic, just a bit weird, which I suppose is a good preparation for life!

Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

You know how, just before they took Solemn Vows, nuns used to be shown a room with two tables, on one lying the clothes that they enetered in and on the other a habit and veil? They were then meant to ut their hand on one or the other to symbolise their choice? (Well, they probably don't now, but I like the idea!) I had a similar sort of image, only with a Promise Badge and a very grim-faced Guider...

Author:  Pat [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

My Promise, back in the 60s was:
I promise on my honour to do my best to do my duty to God and The Queen, to serve other people at all times and to obey the Guide Law.

Author:  Pado [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:06 am ]
Post subject: 

Mine, USA, 1960s

On my honor
I will try
To do my duty
To God and my country
To help other people at all times
And to obey the Girl Scout Law.

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