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Who are the good parents in CS-land?
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Author:  Alison H [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Following on from the discussion about Austrian characters in the CS books, who (whom? :D ) do people think we're meant to see as the good parents in CS-land? There are presumably lots of brilliant parents/guardians whom we don't really see, but those we do see or hear about all seem to be either uncaring (the Cochranes and the Carricks), clueless (Polly Heriot's guardians), weak (Doris Trelawney, Mrs Winterton), too wrapped up in themselves to bother about their children (Prof Richardson, Prof Fry, Mrs Grantley), weird (Mr Barrass, Mrs Pertwee at least in EBD's book) or have "strange" ideas about child-rearing (the Bensons, the Hopes).

The Mensches and the Maranis are happy family units, but it's not clear whether or not we're meant to approve of how strict the parents are and how great a level of obedience they expect from their children. Robin's "obedience" is usually praised, but are we meant to approve of Ted, who dumps his 6-year-old child on someone she's never even met before? Joey and Jack are usually praised as examples of perfect parents, but I wouldn't say that we really see that in action. Margot and Mike in particular have a lot of problems, to which Jack's answer is to refuse to speak to them because he's unable to control his anger, Len is overburdened with responsibility, Charles is frightened to tell his mother when he's seriously ill and Joey sometimes acts like a child herself (slidey mats!). Dick and Mollie are a nice couple who do their best for their children, but their four eldest children end up being raised by other people. & Jem often sounds like a complete control freak - are we meant to approve of that?

It's fairly clear what the ideal CS girl is meant to be like, but what is the ideal CS parent meant to be like?
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
There seems to me to be a big gap between what EBD tells us about who are good parents, and what she shows us. There's often a big gap between what she tells us and shows us anyway, but it seems bigger than usual when it comes to parenting, which seems to be a huge, fraught issue for her.

She tells us throughout that problem girls are the result of bad parenting/guardianship - and shows it over and over again in Grizel, Emerence, Ted, Yseult, Eustacia, Thekla, Lavender, and every other 'problem' new girl. Outrageous examples of misbehaviour in younger children - the di Balbinis, 'Junior' who squirts Richenda with acid or whatever it was - are all traced to lax or neglectful parenting.

But it doesn't seem to quite work both ways. Jem's control freakery - which I do think we're supposed to approve of - produces resentful, vain Sybil, Joey and Jack's perfect parenting - and again, I think we are supposed to think it's perfect - produces Mike and Margot, and Margot, at least, seems like a pretty troubled individual. Or, conversely, dopey, inept Maisie Gomme produces sensible, sweet-natured, 'natural leader' Jo Scott, who has nothing at all to learn from the CS. The loopy, eccentric Barrasses produce lovely Clem. In terms of longterm guardians, for every Annis Lovell who is soured and spoiled by her nasty aunt, we have Carola Johnstone, who seems entirely unaffected by her nasty aunt, and being hauled unwillingly round the world...?
Author:  lindsabeth [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
But it doesn't seem to quite work both ways. Jem's control freakery - which I do think we're supposed to approve of - produces resentful, vain Sybil, Joey and Jack's perfect parenting - and again, I think we are supposed to think it's perfect - produces Mike and Margot, and Margot, at least, seems like a pretty troubled individual.


Well, I think in some ways this is actually quite realistic. In real life no parent is perfect, and sometimes good parents end up with problem children and vice versa. I do agree that we're supposed to see Joey and Jack as perfect parents, but I think it would have been odd if all their children had turned out to be little angels. Margot seems to be, in my opinion, EBD's attempt to show that everyone has their faults, and that it often takes a lot of hard work to overcome them.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
lindsabeth wrote:

Well, I think in some ways this is actually quite realistic. In real life no parent is perfect, and sometimes good parents end up with problem children and vice versa. I do agree that we're supposed to see Joey and Jack as perfect parents, but I think it would have been odd if all their children had turned out to be little angels. Margot seems to be, in my opinion, EBD's attempt to show that everyone has their faults, and that it often takes a lot of hard work to overcome them.


I suppose I think EBD's realism deserts her when it comes to MBR parenting (though she's perfectly capable of realism elsewhere, but for me it's strongest when she's dealing with characters in whom she's less invested)!

My issue with her characterisation of Margot is that while EBD explains other problem girls in terms of their upbringing, she (and everyone else in the CS world) 'explains' Margot's violent temper in terms of her innate character - ie she somehow just has more 'original sin' than other people, and thus has a 'harder row to hoe' to overcome it! Nothing to do with her family. It's as though EBD has changed her usual philosophy of 'poor parenting makes problem girls' to let Jack and Joey off the hook for Margot's problems. In very black-and-white world where the CS authorities and EBD as narrative voice are continually commenting on good and bad parents and their effects on their children, there's no hint of a suggestion that Margot's problems are the result of poor training. In fact, Jack and Joey are held up by Hilda as examplary - 'train your baby this way and this is the kind of child you'll get' - which then makes the reader wonder why their apparently infallible parenting methods don't always work?

But the later books would be much poorer without Margot, who is very interesting as a character. It's just that she doesn't actually 'make sense' in terms of EBD's usual parenting philosophy. But I'm always very glad she's there as a foil for pi Len! :devil:
Author:  Myth Tree [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
EBD is clear, at least earlier on, that Margot was not 'parented' well. It is mentioned several times that Jo let her off sometimes because of health issues- along the lines of if she was not going to live long her life should be short but happy. In Jo to the rescue her friends tell Jo that she should let Jack help her with Margot as Jo was coping with Margot's temper alone because she didn't want to spoil the little time they spent with Jack.

Is it this that encourages Len's over developed sense of responsibility? Probably. But it is interesting to be shown this flaw in Jo's parenting.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Then I guess just another instance of how EBD revises Joey retrospectively into having been the perfect head girl/mother etc, when the reality, back when those books were written, was more flawed and interesting.

It would feel quite different if, after the book-throwing incident, Hilda was shaking her head to the other mistresses and saying 'Ah well, Joey and Jack spoiled her so much as a small child, when it looked as if she wasn't going to live, that it's not surprising she has anger problems.'
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
It would feel quite different if, after the book-throwing incident, Hilda was shaking her head to the other mistresses and saying 'Ah well, Joey and Jack spoiled her so much as a small child, when it looked as if she wasn't going to live, that it's not surprising she has anger problems.'

I have a real problem with the way Hilda deals with the incident quoted above. Even today, when it is increasingly difficult to exclude children even temporarily, a violent outbreak of that nature against another child would merit at least a couple of day's suspension.
That said, I think the reason for the odd black sheep in the MBR clan is down to hereditory factors. In Rescue Joey recalls Madge telling her that their father was inclined to be short tempered and irritable, and she appears to accept that Margot may have inherited her disposition from him. If the child is predisposed to ill temper, that would explain why the perfect paranting doesn't quite produce the perfect child.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
MJKB wrote:
If the child is predisposed to ill temper, that would explain why the perfect paranting doesn't quite produce the perfect child.


While not wishing to denigrate the nature/nurture debate in any way, I think that it is perfectly possible to agree that even when placed in the best of environments with the best possible parents, it's still possible for a child to grow up with flaws.

However, what Cosimo seems to be saying (and please forgive me if I'm wrong) is that EBD rarely acknowledges this. Emerence is not naturally mischeivous, Thekla not naturally disdainful and haughty, Eustacia not naturally stilted; all of these 'flaws' are explained away by bad parenting. And so yet again, while she can show us Margot, who isn't perfect despite her 'perfect' parents, what she tells us would suggest that Margot should be perfect.

I think that Dick/Mollie do a fairly good job by the standards of the time. Also, I think that Simone deserves some praise; while largely unremarked on, Tessa is one of my favourite characters in the series.

It's interesting, IMHO, what EBD criticises that I wouldn't. Jacynth's auntie, for example; I would have said that she was a brilliant parent for putting Jacynth so much before herself, even to the serious detriment of her health, for thinking and planning so much for her future, and for facing quite serious poverty for the sake of saving for her. Yet, EBD implicitly criticises all of this as it makes her ill!
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Jacynth's auntie, for example; I would have said that she was a brilliant parent for putting Jacynth so much before herself, even to the serious detriment of her health, for thinking and planning so much for her future, and for facing quite serious poverty for the sake of saving for her. Yet, EBD implicitly criticises all of this as it makes her ill!


Does she, though? I thought 'auntie' was seen as a sort of saintly figure, who is prepared to lay down her life for her neice.
On the subject of Jacynth and her aunt, I was always see their lives together as incredibly lonely and depressing; so while I was genuinely moved by the letter Jacynth receives from her aunt post mortem, a little part of me thinks that her life will be more joyful with her adopted family.


ChubbyMonkey wrote:
While not wishing to denigrate the nature/nurture debate in any way, I think that it is perfectly possible to agree that even when placed in the best of environments with the best possible parents, it's still possible for a child to grow up with flaws.

I agree, and I think without her realising it, EBD inclined towards that view of things too. On the other hand, the belief in hereditory influences was very strong in the early part of EBD' s life, and we do hear her make statements about 'well bred' faces etc, which suggests that she came down more on the side of nature rather than nurture.
Author:  ClaireK [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Daisy is a character I really like - and who turns into a balanced grown-up. She's probably had one of the most disrupted upbringings - with her parents in Australia, then moved to Austria and living with relatives wh are strangers, and then with Joey after the go to Guernsey. None of these upheavals seems to have affected her unduely. Which says a lot about her strength of character.
Author:  Mia [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I think that Dick/Mollie do a fairly good job by the standards of the time.


I do like Dick and Mollie but gosh they're pretty useless parents IMO. Mollie is said to be like the child and Bride/Peggy the parent and Dick can't seem to go to his estate office once without dragging his kids with him to check up on his work.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Mia wrote:
I do like Dick and Mollie but gosh they're pretty useless parents IMO. Mollie is said to be like the child and Bride/Peggy the parent and Dick can't seem to go to his estate office once without dragging his kids with him to check up on his work.


:D :D No memory of him taking the kids to his estate office - which book is that? I agree about Mollie seeming to be the child and her daughters the parent-figures, but I think EBD really likes portraying that and actually thinks it's a good thing! You get a version of it with Joey (tree-climbing and slidey mats, eternal schoolgirl) vs responsible Len - and all that 'thank heavens she's not staid old Auntie Doris' stuff.

I think as ever with EBD that it comes down to whether or not she's decided in advance that she is going to portray the characters as good or bad - someone was talking up the thread about Jacynth's auntie being implicitly criticised for overworking herself for Jacynth's sake and neglecting her health, but Mrs Pertwee gets a much less sympathetic portrayal from EBD, though her death is down to much the same reason.

And I was thinking again about Jo Scott - Maisie Gomme Scott is portrayed as a total airhead from the first line of her gushy letter to Joey, but she actually seems to develop some sensible enough ideas about Jo becoming over-responsible:

Quote:
Mummy didn’t like it when she had to go without pretty frocks and trips to Nairobi; but she had just laughed and said “Better luck next year!” It was only Jo herself who really worried about what was going to happen to them all if they had two or even three bad years together.
Jo was not to know, but this was one big reason why Mummy had insisted she should remain behind and go to the Chalet School when they returned to Kenya. She had come to the conclusion that her daughter was doing far too much worrying for her age and it was high time she was where she couldn’t know what her parents were doing about money matters. There was the excuse of the disturbed state of the country, and Mrs Scott wanted no more.


That seems like pretty good parenting for a woman EBD consistently describes as immensely silly...? And interesting that it seems to be Mrs Scott who makes the decision Jo is over-responsible, and to leave her in Europe at boarding-school, not her more 'sensible' husband, as it so often is in EBD's silly mother/'good' father scenarios.
Author:  Mel [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
The remarks about Jacynth's Auntie make her seem rather foolish to kill herself so that J goes to a 'good' school. A more sensible idea would be to move closer to a school, possibly even a state school (gasp) which might have extended her life. She was not to know that the CS would adopt J eventually.
Author:  Mia [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
It's in Bride. He can't do his sums. :lol:
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Mel wrote:
The remarks about Jacynth's Auntie make her seem rather foolish to kill herself so that J goes to a 'good' school. A more sensible idea would be to move closer to a school, possibly even a state school (gasp) which might have extended her life. She was not to know that the CS would adopt J eventually.


Auntie working herself into an early grave by doing knitting at all hours to raise money for CS fees sounds like something out of a Victorian melodrama, but I think it's a shame that EBD never acknowledges that plenty of parents must have made sacrifices in order to be able to do what they saw as providing the best educational opportunities for their daughters. There's something about Connie Winter's parents not being able to afford the new uniform because they're "poor", but that just sounds silly - they're clearly not "poor" or they wouldn't be sending their daughter to the CS, but they probably had to budget carefully and spend less on leisure activities and things for themselves and their home than they would have done had Connie gone to a state school or a cheaper private school.

If there's any mention of people struggling to afford the fees, it's usually because an external event has changed their situation, e.g. the Chesters being the victim of dodgy dealings. It just seems to be assumed that parents don't think twice about paying expensive school fees any more than they'd think twice about buying bread or milk, whereas a lot of parents must have had hard decisions to make and (assuming that they picked the CS because they thought it was what was best for their children, not out of the sort of snobbery we see when Len says that there's no way Mary-Lou'll be going to the village school) they deserve credit for that. & never get it!

*Descends from soapbox.*
Author:  Carys [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Wasn't Connie Winter on a scholarship which covered her education/board, what have you, but her parents had to pay for her uniform? I remember some sort of reference to that.

I like the Lucy family and wish Janie and Julian had been in the series more, I think they are portrayed as a more realistic family than the Maynards.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Mia wrote:
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I think that Dick/Mollie do a fairly good job by the standards of the time.


I do like Dick and Mollie but gosh they're pretty useless parents IMO. Mollie is said to be like the child and Bride/Peggy the parent and Dick can't seem to go to his estate office once without dragging his kids with him to check up on his work.


See, I don't recall that latter scene - which makes me wonder. Perhaps EBD's best parents, at least for us the reader, are the ones that we never 'see' in the books? :D
Author:  Mia [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
As I said above, it's in the opening of Bride.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Yes, sorry - I just meant that as I didn't remember it, I hadn't thought of it when I said that I thought D&M were good parents. So, perhaps the less EBD tells us of parents, the better they seem to us?

Sorry. I shall report to Miss A. straight away for English lessons, as clearly mine needs improving!
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I actually have a certain amount of sympathy with someone who can't do sums ( :banghead: ) but it's interesting that EBD allows Dick to appear on more than one occasion (at the start of Chalet too) a sort of beta-male by the standards of the CS world, especially for the MBRs. Hard to imagine Jem asking the teenage Sybil or Josette to come and cast an eye over some calculations!

Especially when Mollie also seems pretty juvenile, ill or needing to be looked after a lot of the time. When we see her and Peggy at tea with the Wintertons, the only thing we hear about Mollie is that she has an infectious 'schoolgirl' laugh, is plump, and looks absurdly young to be Peggy's mother, and Peggy's 'pretty ways with her mother' are all about taking her mother's basket and handing her her sunshade and reminding her to put it up because it's still hot, like the adult in the relationship!

And Bride is a bit similar when Mollie roars with laughter when Peggy and Dickie's horse takes fright during the water pageant in Wrong -

Quote:
She sat gurgling and mopping her eyes alternately until her very shocked Bride descended on her and demanded to know what she thought she was doing.
‘Peg and Dick might have had a very nasty accident,’ Bride said severely. ‘I don’t see anything to laugh at!’


ETA - I suppose what I'm saying is that it's interesting that Dick and Mollie, having been absent from the majority of their children for years, don't weigh back in like Mr Winteron when they get home, and have to 'sort them out' - presumably because they've been perfectly raised by Jem and Madge! Instead, Dick and Mollie are themselves helped out, or even parented, by their own elder daughters...
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Kat Gordon has that sort of relationship with Aunt Luce, as if it's not clear which of them's the adult and which is the child, and to some extent Clem seems like the only real adult in the Barrass family. & Jessica tells Mary-Lou that part of the reason she feels pushed out by Rosamund is that she and her mother have always been close because "she's an awfully young mother". It's in complete contrast to families like the Mensches and the Maranis where parents are parents and children are children, if that makes sense. In Three Go, Mary-Lou notes immediately that there's a big difference between Madge, who is clearly from her mother's generation, and Joey, who seems more girlish - OK, Madge is 12 years older than Joey, but to 10-year-old Mary-Lou they'd both just look like mums - but there's no indication of whether she thinks that makes one of them "better" than the other.

The Bettanys seem like a very happy family at the beginning of Bride.
Author:  Trouvay [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

Especially when Mollie also seems pretty juvenile, ill or needing to be looked after a lot of the time. When we see her and Peggy at tea with the Wintertons, the only thing we hear about Mollie is that she has an infectious 'schoolgirl' laugh, is plump, and looks absurdly young to be Peggy's mother, and Peggy's 'pretty ways with her mother' are all about taking her mother's basket and handing her her sunshade and reminding her to put it up because it's still hot, like the adult in the relationship!


I was just trying to work out how old Mollie would have been. Wasn't she quite young when she married Dick? Peggy herself was young for a new head girl [I don't have the book to hand, so can't remember how old she was]. Would Mollie have been about 35 here? If so, from my position of being the wrong side of that, it does seem very young. Though when I first read this 35 would have seemed ancient.
Author:  Selena [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Trouvay wrote:
Though when I first read this 35 would have seemed ancient.

As you get older ages always do seem younger. I used to think 25 was pretty old, now i think it's rather young really! :lol:

I think Janie and Julian Lucy are considered ideal parents by EBD. One reason i think this is beacuse their children are portrayed as being very obedient. They are naughty but never do something again once it's been forbidden. That's a little too good to be true in my opinion.

Anne and Peter Chester are not quite as good as the Lucys because of Anne's pride stopping them from letting their relations send Beth to a good school sooner.

I think the main reason Maisie Gomm is a good parent is because she taught Jo (Scott) to adore Joey (Maynard) before she'd even met her! :D
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Mollie was "barely 18" when she got married, and Peggy and Rix came along less than a year later, so Mollie would only have been about 35 there - but Madge seems far more mature at the start of the series, when she's only 24!

Dick, although he sends Madge a very patronising letter (I think it's one of the ones about the Carricks) saying that women need a man to look after them, is definitely not an Alpha Male like Jem. We're told from the start that Madge is the one who wears the trousers in the Bettany family, although it's not quite put like that :lol: .

Not sure how Dick and Mollie would react in a crisis, but The Quadrant seems like a much happier and easier place to be than chez Russell or chez Maynard. I can't imagine Dick and Mollie banning one of the kids from the house or refusing to speak to one of them for a fortnight.

& I know EBD meant it to tie in with religious practices but I feel really uncomfortable about the idea of the Maynard children from the age of about 3 upwards being expected to confess their sins to Joey every night. Confessing to things like breaking an ornament is fair enough, but having to inform Joey every time they called someone a pig seems a bit scary to me.

The Lucy "forbids" system makes me laugh because it just doesn't work :lol: - I get the impression that the kids just make some slight alteration to the misdeed to turn it into something which hasn't been forbidden. With all that practice, Julie might have made a great Ms Loophole if she hadn't packed in her legal work to get married ...
Author:  Selena [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Alison H wrote:
& I know EBD meant it to tie in with religious practices but I feel really uncomfortable about the idea of the Maynard children from the age of about 3 upwards being expected to confess their sins to Joey every night. Confessing to things like breaking an ornament is fair enough, but having to inform Joey every time they called someone a pig seems a bit scary to me.

The Lucy "forbids" system makes me laugh because it just doesn't work :lol: - I get the impression that the kids just make some slight alteration to the misdeed to turn it into something which hasn't been forbidden. With all that practice, Julie might have made a great Ms Loophole if she hadn't packed in her legal work to get married ...


The Lucys also do that "confess at bedtime" thing. Maybe another sign of "ideal parenting"? One of their bundles of joy confessed a sin and immediately started in on Our Father so his mother could not start to tell him off. Rather good strategy - those Lucy children were quite bright :D
Author:  whitequeen [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I remember doing the "confessing" at a very early age as well, maybe 6 or thereabouts, but it didn't do me any real good because I had a kind of idea that I was expected to do something bad so that I'd have something to say at bedtime. I can even remember making stuff up once or twice because I couldn't remember/hadn't done any actual sins. (It's probably unlikely that I really hadn't done anything bad all day but it must have gone unnoticed so that it didn't occur to me at night!)
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
It doesn't work with the Maynards either :lol: . In Three Go, during a game of Impertinent Questions Margot confesses to having broken a window weeks earlier. The kids had (reasonably enough) been banned from playing ball games indoors after a window had been broken on a previous occasion, and had broken the rule, broken a window during a game of catch and all let Jack and Joey think that it'd been broken by heavy rain/high winds. & that's the sort of thing that even kids who aren't supposedly trained to instant obedience'd think they ought to own up to :lol: .
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I noticed in Ruey that Joey tells Hilary Graves to try smacking her daughter:

Quote:
“The only thing that has ever held Mike and Felix, and it did Margot good, too, when she was Marjorie’s age. You try it, Hilary.”
“Oh, go and teach your grandmother to suck eggs!” Hilary retorted. “I spanked her good and hearty the day I found her slapping Lois and she’s never done it since.


Given that corporal punishment is clearly considered much more normal for boys in the CS world - and while characters talk about wishing they could cane girls, the only one I can think of who we know is definitely caned is Richenda, by her father - is it significant that the only Maynard girl singled out as having been spanked when younger grows up to exhibit somewhat violent tendencies, as shown in the bookend incident?

I just found myself smiling at Hilary appearing not to see the irony in spanking her daughter 'good and hard' for slapping her little sister! It's only OK when Mummy does it! :)
Author:  KB [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
I noticed in Ruey that Joey tells Hilary Graves to try smacking her daughter:

Quote:
“The only thing that has ever held Mike and Felix, and it did Margot good, too, when she was Marjorie’s age. You try it, Hilary.”
“Oh, go and teach your grandmother to suck eggs!” Hilary retorted. “I spanked her good and hearty the day I found her slapping Lois and she’s never done it since.


Given that corporal punishment is clearly considered much more normal for boys in the CS world - and while characters talk about wishing they could cane girls, the only one I can think of who we know is definitely caned is Richenda, by her father - is it significant that the only Maynard girl singled out as having been spanked when younger grows up to exhibit somewhat violent tendencies, as shown in the bookend incident?

I just found myself smiling at Hilary appearing not to see the irony in spanking her daughter 'good and hard' for slapping her little sister! It's only OK when Mummy does it! :)


That is one of my favourite moments of the later books since it's one of the only times that Jo is so thoroughly and completely put in her place!
Author:  claire [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I see it in the same way as biting a toddler who is biting - you don't do it because it hurts, not you don't do it just because I told you not to
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
claire wrote:
I see it in the same way as biting a toddler who is biting - you don't do it because it hurts, not you don't do it just because I told you not to


Yes, it sounds as if Hilary's smacked Marjorie for a specific reason whereas the Maynards just smack their children because they can't think of a punishment-to-fit-the-crime which would be the proper thing to do in CS-land :roll: .

I accept that corporal punishment was perfectly acceptable at the time, but I'm not sure what it says about the Maynards that Mike and Felix are so wild that no other form of punishment has any effect.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Alison H wrote:

I accept that corporal punishment was perfectly acceptable at the time, but I'm not sure what it says about the Maynards that Mike and Felix are so wild that no other form of punishment has any effect.


It's Margot who stands out for me, as a girl, given that corporal punishment for girls isn't as common in the CS world and we don't ever hear of any other Maynard girls being spanked, do we, even Con in her naughty sugar-stealing days? It's very much not the kind of parenting we normally see EBD extolling in Joey and Jack, especially - as you say - EBD's liking for 'making the punishment fit the crime'.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Alison H wrote:

I accept that corporal punishment was perfectly acceptable at the time, but I'm not sure what it says about the Maynards that Mike and Felix are so wild that no other form of punishment has any effect.


It's Margot who stands out for me, as a girl, given that corporal punishment for girls isn't as common in the CS world and we don't ever hear of any other Maynard girls being spanked, do we, even Con in her naughty sugar-stealing days? It's very much not the kind of parenting we normally see EBD extolling in Joey and Jack, especially - as you say - EBD's liking for 'making the punishment fit the crime'.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Joey say something about smacking the back of Con's hand for stealing sugar?

I think that it fits more into a 'it's all right to spank boys, teach them to behave like gentlemen' thing - look at Jem with the Balbinos. Perhaps EBD just thought that her readers would assume this was fairly commonplace practice, and that it wasn't a matter for criticism even in her perfect parents?
Author:  cestina [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Perhaps EBD just thought that her readers would assume this was fairly commonplace practice, and that it wasn't a matter for criticism even in her perfect parents?

I'm very sure this is what she thought. It was completely normal practice, it still is in some countries such as the Czech Republic. They look at you as if you are crazy if you suggest that there is another way of disciplining small children apart from smacking them.

However I have to say that the children that I observe there are a)in no way cowed and b) far better behaved than children here, particularly in public.

I could write many articles on this subject but will spare you all :wink:

PS I never smacked my children, despite what the above might sound like.....
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Oh, I don't think EBD thought smacking was wrong, it's just she doesn't show the Maynards employing it regularly (the way we see, for instance, Julian Lucy doing so) which makes me think she saw it as a less 'interesting' parental punishment than some others. Although she reserves most of her 'punishment fitting the crime' ingenuities for school, come to think of it - Freudesheim/Plas Gwyn punishments tend to be more of the 'you've punished yourselves enough' variety.

Though I am always rather alarmed by the way Mike is treated after he goes over the cliff to get his bird's nest:

Quote:
He’s had a doing, you know. Len has kept him well away from Jack these last three days and in any case, no one has felt very loving towards him. He’s been more or less sent to Coventry and Anna has given him his meals with the nursery folk. It hasn’t been a happy three days for him. But as Jack refused to thrash him—said he didn’t dare just then—or have anything to do with him, there was no other way of punishing him.”


I can easily understand a frantic Jack, worried about Joey, saying 'Keep him away from me, or I'll wallop him till he's back and blue' immediately after the incident, but three days on, with Joey obviously fine, and the eldest child is still actively keeping father and son apart?
Author:  emma t [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Alison H wrote:

I accept that corporal punishment was perfectly acceptable at the time, but I'm not sure what it says about the Maynards that Mike and Felix are so wild that no other form of punishment has any effect.


It's Margot who stands out for me, as a girl, given that corporal punishment for girls isn't as common in the CS world and we don't ever hear of any other Maynard girls being spanked, do we, even Con in her naughty sugar-stealing days? It's very much not the kind of parenting we normally see EBD extolling in Joey and Jack, especially - as you say - EBD's liking for 'making the punishment fit the crime'.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Joey say something about smacking the back of Con's hand for stealing sugar?

I think that it fits more into a 'it's all right to spank boys, teach them to behave like gentlemen' thing - look at Jem with the Balbinos. Perhaps EBD just thought that her readers would assume this was fairly commonplace practice, and that it wasn't a matter for criticism even in her perfect parents?

Also, does not Joey smack one of the triplets over them playing with matches? They were also sent to bed, if I remember rightly, and Joey ended up in tears which seemed to do the trick over that.
I agree that Len is expected to do more than her fair share, it's impressed on them that Joey must not be worried; which raises the question is that fair on the children? They should be able to go to their mother if needed. It's the same in the Bettany House, Peggy is always turned upon when there is a crisis, and will be needed at home once her school days are finished. Are they right to expect this from their eldest?
Author:  KB [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Though I am always rather alarmed by the way Mike is treated after he goes over the cliff to get his bird's nest:

Quote:
He’s had a doing, you know. Len has kept him well away from Jack these last three days and in any case, no one has felt very loving towards him. He’s been more or less sent to Coventry and Anna has given him his meals with the nursery folk. It hasn’t been a happy three days for him. But as Jack refused to thrash him—said he didn’t dare just then—or have anything to do with him, there was no other way of punishing him.”


I can easily understand a frantic Jack, worried about Joey, saying 'Keep him away from me, or I'll wallop him till he's back and blue' immediately after the incident, but three days on, with Joey obviously fine, and the eldest child is still actively keeping father and son apart?


The very interesting part for me is what follows that part:

Quote:
I agree that he ought to be punished for disobedience. Why on earth someone didn’t give him a sound whipping at the time, I can’t think. If Jack wouldn’t or couldn’t, where was Jem? He’s the boy’s uncle and the fit person to do it in the circumstances.


My feeling is that EBD felt that authority figures (male, of course) were not only permitted but required to do so. Consider the scene with Mario Balbini when Jem whips him. Prince Balbini's reaction is not outrage at what another man has done to his son (as I imagine it would be now) but rather this:

Quote:
Prince Balbini smiled. 'He will certainly be friends with you, Doctor. Mario owed you a debt; you have exacted payment, and he has paid, as a Balbini is always proud to do. That is the end of it. I appreciate your generosity and will permit him to accept it this time. Now we will continue our promenade.'


And Mario gets the lecture of his life later, threatened with being sent away to school.

While this scene shocks the modern reader, there's nothing in it that suggests to a contemporary reader that anything extraordinary or out of either character or era was done ("he knew that he had already given the little fellow as much as he ought to have at one time"). In fact, EBD makes a point of Mario never having been whipped before (although, considering he 'stiffens himself to meet his punishment', one wonders what he was expecting).
Author:  Lulie [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
This reminds me of my parent's generation telling me that they never dared tell at home if they'd got into trouble at school. As well as whatever punishment the school dished out (and was quite likely to be the cane) parents would dish out an even worse one!
Author:  Lesley [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Quote:
This reminds me of my parent's generation telling me that they never dared tell at home if they'd got into trouble at school. As well as whatever punishment the school dished out (and was quite likely to be the cane) parents would dish out an even worse one!



My father says exactly the same - except on one occasion when his mother learnt that although my Dad had been caned for talking in class the other boy had not - cue my grandmother storming up to the school to accost the Headmaster in his office and demand to know why her son had been punished but the other boy had not - with a mortified Dad along not daring to upset his mum any further. :lol:
Author:  Miss Di [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
KB wrote:
In fact, EBD makes a point of Mario never having been whipped before (although, considering he 'stiffens himself to meet his punishment', one wonders what he was expecting).



Must Take Mind Out of Gutter


Snork.
Author:  KB [ Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Miss Di wrote:
KB wrote:
In fact, EBD makes a point of Mario never having been whipped before (although, considering he 'stiffens himself to meet his punishment', one wonders what he was expecting).



Must Take Mind Out of Gutter


Snork.


*refuses to admit that I thought the same thing* :dontknow:
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
KB wrote:
*refuses to admit that I thought the same thing*

Whatever can you mean?
I had to resurrect this thread because of an article I read this morning by Mary Kenny. She quotes from the OECD report on literacy and numeracy statistics, which place the Chinese at the top of thirty countries. It's thought that China's achievements are due to its parental style. Mothers, in particular, are very hard on their children, and do not tolerate failure. Apparently they are being dubbed 'tiger mothers' and their style of child rearing is in complete contrast to the 'soft' modern parenting of western mothers. Some young western parents are now beginning to take note and are resorting to stricter discipline in the hope of pushing their children academically. Kenny suggests that the Irish mother of a couple of generations ago practised a milder version of this 'tiger mothering' and reared tougher and more self sufficient children. It made me reflect on my own parenting, and even teaching style, which is very, very soft.
Author:  Lydia B [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I saw a review for a book written by an American mother of chinese descent (which i now can't remember the name of) where she details raising her children in this style. I thought it was extremely brave of her to lay herself open for the attacks and criticisms that she knew it would bring. It is also her acknowledgement that this style of parenting can cause a lot of conflict in a family that lives in a western country.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Lydia B wrote:
I saw a review for a book written by an American mother of chinese descent (which i now can't remember the name of) where she details raising her children in this style. I thought it was extremely brave of her to lay herself open for the attacks and criticisms that she knew it would bring. It is also her acknowledgement that this style of parenting can cause a lot of conflict in a family that lives in a western country.


It's called Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by Amy Chua. I've only read newspaper extracts and reviews, but I tend to think that, while, yes, it's about Chinese-style parenting explained to the west, it must also have been published with a certain knowing, tongue-in-cheek attitude. No Yale law school professor (which is what Chua is) would be naive enough not know exactly how this would read. I think it's a calculated joke on a certain kind of US parenting, in which anything the child says or does is praised to the skies, and there's a huge focus on promoting self-esteem:

Quote:
Amy Chua was in a restaurant, celebrating her birthday with her husband and daughters, Sophia, seven, and Lulu, four. "Lulu handed me her 'surprise', which turned out to be a card," writes Chua in her explosive new memoir, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. "More accurately, it was a piece of paper folded crookedly in half, with a big happy face on the front. Inside, 'Happy Birthday, Mummy! Love, Lulu' was scrawled in crayon above another happy face. I gave the card back to Lulu. 'I don't want this,' I said. 'I want a better one – one that you've put some thought and effort into. I have a special box, where I keep all my cards from you and Sophia, and this one can't go in there.' I grabbed the card again and flipped it over. I pulled out a pen and scrawled 'Happy Birthday Lulu Whoopee!' I added a big sour face. … 'I reject this.'"

What kind of a mother throws her four-year-old daughter's homemade birthday cards back at them? A "Chinese" one, that's who, says Chua.

When Lulu turns in a poor practice session on the piano, Chua hauls her doll's house to the car and tells her she'll donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she doesn't have The Little White Donkey mastered by the next day. When Sophia does the same, she screams: "If the next time's not perfect, I'm going to take all your stuffed animals and burn them."


(Full article at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -interview)

I did actually have the chance to talk about it with a Chinese woman in her twenties who was visiting from Beijing the other day, and she said her own childhood had been similar, that her mother had made her go in for brutally competitive gymnastics training from the age of four, at six had given her the choice between intensive violin or piano training, and that she'd often been doing music practice and homework till midnight as a girl, with only top grades being good enough. She said quite unironically that it had been 'misery', but that 'now I am glad', and said she planned to bring up her toddler the same way...
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
A friend if my daughter's, an exceedingly bright and talented child, was brought up very much like that. The first time she sang solo in Church at the grand old age of eight, she wobbled abit on one or two notes, which actually added to the charm of the occasion, imo, but her mother was certainly not charmed. She pointed out her daughter's mistakes coldly and clinically and told her that she had made a fool of herself in public. Stories of this mother's pushy parenting are legion, but I'd have to say that her daughter, who pulled off 12 As in her Junior Cert two years ago, and is expected to pull off 8 A1s in the Leaving Cert - 7A1s and an A2 would simply not be good enough for either mother or daughter - is assured of outstanding success in whatever career she choses to take up. On the other hand, she has grown from a delightful if precocious little girl to an arrogant, smug young woman.
Author:  Emma A [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I can't imagine anyone with a parenting style such as Amy Chua being acceptable in EBD's world! Though she does come reasonably close with Joey and Margot, I think - Joey tells Margot off for not working as hard as her triplets, and for failing to be in the same form as them, even though Margot is in the correct form for her age, and Len and Con are ridiculously advanced.

In general mothers are expected to be loving and reassuring, and it's fathers who are expected to provide the stern discipline - at least outside of school. But in general when it comes to school lessons, EBD seems to think that none of her pupils' parents threaten dire penalties if their children don't get top marks in every subject (like Antonia Forest does with poor Meg Hopkins and her dictatorial dad). There are fathers who create unpleasantness at poor results, but it's generally people like Paul Ozanne, who only does it after the twins have slacked off for years, and are right at the bottom of their class.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Other than Mary-Lou when she's trying to catch up with Clem, and Janet Someone who's competing with Adrienne, and possibly Jacynth, there aren't really any cases of anyone feeling pressurised to do well. A storyline in which a pushy parent wants their daughter to get top marks every time, the child becomes ill because they're overdoing it, and Joey or Hilda gives both the child and the parent a lecture on how it isn't good to work too hard and the child should pack in their work after prep and concentrate on dancing/the Sale/ski-ing, would be a very CS type of storyline, but it never happens.
Author:  KB [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Alison H wrote:
Other than Mary-Lou when she's trying to catch up with Clem, and Janet Someone who's competing with Adrienne, and possibly Jacynth, there aren't really any cases of anyone feeling pressurised to do well. A storyline in which a pushy parent wants their daughter to get top marks every time, the child becomes ill because they're overdoing it, and Joey or Hilda gives both the child and the parent a lecture on how it isn't good to work too hard and the child should pack in their work after prep and concentrate on dancing/the Sale/ski-ing, would be a very CS type of storyline, but it never happens.


It may well be the back-story behind Marilyn Evans' time as Head Girl.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
KB wrote:
Alison H wrote:
Other than Mary-Lou when she's trying to catch up with Clem, and Janet Someone who's competing with Adrienne, and possibly Jacynth, there aren't really any cases of anyone feeling pressurised to do well. A storyline in which a pushy parent wants their daughter to get top marks every time, the child becomes ill because they're overdoing it, and Joey or Hilda gives both the child and the parent a lecture on how it isn't good to work too hard and the child should pack in their work after prep and concentrate on dancing/the Sale/ski-ing, would be a very CS type of storyline, but it never happens.


It may well be the back-story behind Marilyn Evans' time as Head Girl.


That would be a very interesting take on it. It would of course be perfectly plausible as a reason for Marilyn's focus on her academic work. It's always interested me that the CS authorities seem so straightforwardly to assume that prioritising her schoolwork is an act of selfishness on Marilyn's part - she's described as 'ambitious', which I think is quite a loaded term in the context (the choice between 'selflessly' putting the school first or 'selfishly' putting her own work first). Though I never quite know what Hilda means when she says 'the school had to go to the wall' too often, when Marilyn prioritised her own work...? Does that mean skipping prefects' meetings? Letting the Middles play Hangman in prep while she concentrates? Delegating too much to her Second Prefect? What could have been so disastrous?
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Whatever she did, they then made a rule that people in Special Sixth couldn't be appointed Head Girl. Ignoring the fact that it's a plot device to set up the Peggy-Eilunedd storyline :wink: , they effectively acknowledge that "selfish" Marilyn actually had a good point and that it was unreasonable to expect someone swotting for university to take on all the extra work of being HG as well. The idea got forgotten about once the finishing branch is set up and Special Sixth disappeared, but it does sound as if they were holding their hands up and admitting that too much was asked of Marilyn and their system was wrong. Not sure that that's how EBD meant us to see it, but it's how it sounds to me :D .
Author:  KB [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Alison H wrote:
WThe idea got forgotten about once the finishing branch is set up and Special Sixth disappeared


I'm not entirely sure it did. Instead it seems more as if Special Sixth became St Mildred's, who were not prefects.
Author:  MJKB [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
KB wrote:
I'm not entirely sure it did. Instead it seems more as if Special Sixth became St Mildred's, who were not prefects.
Alison H wrote:
WThe idea got forgotten about once the finishing branch is set up and Special Sixth disappeared


I'm fairly sure we had this discussion before, but what matter. Special Sixth, as the name suggests, was for specialising, and that is catered for at St Mildred's.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
This is getting totally off the point now, but I think the idea with Marilyn was that she was still studying for university entrance/public exams, whereas the girls at St Mildred's are past that stage ... although Mary-Lou & co say that they aren't doing any exams when they're in their final year at school and Mary-Lou is HG, so it's all a bit confused anyway! Josette is doing exams in Trials because she panics when she gets ill, but she isn't HG until a year later.

I'm even more confused now! Never mind. The original point was that a storyline in which an ambitious parent comes into conflict with the CS's idea that people shouldn't work too hard would be interesting. Miss Bubb more or less gets slapped down and is then sent packing after a term, but what would they do about a parent who took that view? Or a pupil?
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Alison H wrote:
Whatever she did, they then made a rule that people in Special Sixth couldn't be appointed Head Girl. Ignoring the fact that it's a plot device to set up the Peggy-Eilunedd storyline :wink: , they effectively acknowledge that "selfish" Marilyn actually had a good point and that it was unreasonable to expect someone swotting for university to take on all the extra work of being HG as well.


Whatever about the subsequent ruling, I wonder what Marilyn was supposed to do herself in the immediate situation, if it really did emerge as an either-her-work-or-the-school thing? Should she have nobly resigned as HG citing her work? (Which would have created an absolute furore in the CS world, I imagine?) Should she have put the school first and jeopardised her chances of getting a university place?

As well as what her parents might have thought about it - but then EBD never explores the issue of the parent who is at odds with CS policies. I think part of her fantasy of the perfect school is that all parents bow to its wonder!
Author:  MJKB [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I think Marilyn was very selfish indeed. What did she need to work for anyway? As Alison has noted, Mary-Lou doesn't appear to have done any exams and she got a place at Oxford. Likely as not, Mary-Lou 'put her name down' in time and Marilyn didn't.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Indeed. Furthermore, the first year they moved to Switzerland they didn't do any public exams at all - it was too much hassle after the move, so they had a flower show instead - and it didn't stop Julie Lucy, that year's HG, from getting in to do a law degree.
Author:  Tor [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  Mel [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
The triplets don't do exams in their final year either, have 3 years in the sixth and don't go to St Mildred's. They are needed at the Chalet to be HG, editor and Games Pree. Marilyn Evans should have concentrated on being a good HG then had a further year at the school for her own work. Everyone happy and the CS quids in with extra fees.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
I do wonder about that! If the girls did A-levels in their penultimate year at school, then stayed on for another year, then (as many of them do) spent 2 years at St Mildred's, then the parents were effectively paying - and, whilst the fees might have been reasonable in the Tyrol days, they must have been astronomical in the Swiss days - for their daughters to spend three years dossing about with their mates, eating cream cakes, ski-ing, swimming in Lake Thun and going for walks!
Author:  Mel [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
It's probably worth the money to keep them 'safe' from undesirable young men!
Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Sorry, just read through this entire thread and I have to go back to the very beginning-

It strikes me that Joey herself is presented in the early books as tactless, thoughtless, ocassionally bad-tempered, sometimes rebellious, and immature - but none of these is every attributed to her up-bringing. Grizel's bad behaviour is; Juliet's behaviour, on the other hand, is largely a conscious reaction to her parents' attitude towards her (and ditto her turn-around, after Madge is kind to her.) There's a real mix of reasons why girls act out. It seems to me that it's only later that there's an actual trend of parents/guardians being largely to blame for children's behaviour. (Lavender Leigh is actually the first one who really stand out for me!)
Author:  MJKB [ Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who are the good parents in CS-land?
Nightwing wrote:
It strikes me that Joey herself is presented in the early books as tactless, thoughtless, ocassionally bad-tempered, sometimes rebellious, and immature - but none of these is every attributed to her up-bringing.

Or is it? Jem is of the opinion that Joey's neglect of her health is down to a lack of 'instant obedience', which implies a slight criticism of Madge. But then Madge is only a sister, not a mother, so perhaps EBD has taken into consideration Joey's orphaned status.
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