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#1: going to St Mildreds Author: Laura VLocation: Perth, Australia PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:53 pm
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St Mildreds is a finishing school I would have expected the students to be girls who on leaving would be the ones who would be presented. I find it quite surprising that academically gifted girls such as Bride, Julie Lucy and Mary Lou are all students yet this is in contrast to later years where none of the Maynards attend and I can recall few Chalet girls from the last Swiss books becoming students. What exactly was the prupose of a finshing school and when did attendence to such establishments start to decline?

#2:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:48 pm
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I think St Mildred's is yet another example of a place where EBD is (a)straddling two time periods and (b) unwilling to give up on her notion of what an education should be in order to be accurate about what a Swiss finishing school curriculum was actually like in the 50s.

There are still finishing schools in Switzerland - a friend I often visit lives near one in Rougemont (actually now closed - but Princess Diana went there, and Sarah Ferguson and a lot of other rather pointless posh English roses) so I tended to look on in mild amusement at its activities. The Institut Villa Pierrefeu (IVP) appears to still inhabit 1950s notions of the Things Girls Need to Know - flower arranging, international etiquette, French, cookery, hostessing, how to dress, and 'savoir-vivre'.

Actually, have a look at the website and scroll down the curriculum, if you want a laugh - it claims that many students have found what they learned at the IVP 'more useful than their university degree!'

http://www.ivpworld.com/candypress/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=32&language=en

This hasn't essentially changed from what a 1950s finishing school would have had on its curriculum - they would probably have had a lot of dancing lessons too, partly in preparation for the London Season. St Mildred's is very atypical, being definitely academic in its slant, and not assuming that a career was far less likely for its attendees than a 'good marriage', in which they will use all their hostessing skills. In fact, other than EBD's desire to hang onto some characters for longer, it's not clear to me why it exists at all, other than offering 'a bit more school' to its pupils. It does not socially' finish' them.

I think St M's is so atypical of the 'real world' of the 1950s finishing school because EBD was writing it as an outpost of the CS and couldn't entirely contravene the CS ethos of good academic standards, female usefulness and strength, and careers being encouraged, even expected, for many girls. Absolutely, there would have been a big overlap between finishing school attendees and debutantes in the real world, but again, unless EBD sends very few of her CS girls on to St M's and brings in virtually all of St M's population from a blue-blooded elsewhere, that won't work, either. Mind you, it's also true that by the time EBD was inventing St M's, the presentation of debs was winding down anyway - last real London season was 1958. As Princess Margaret apparently said, it had to stop 'because they're letting in every tart in the country' - ie, it was no longer so exclusive, the nouveaux riches were infiltrating, and people were taking money to 'present' debutantes - as you could only be presented by someone who had herself been presented.

Fiona McCarthy's recent book The Last Curtsey is about the final 1958 season. Sorry - hadn't meant to write an essay - am stuck in the office as it's raining to hard to go home!

#3:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:55 pm
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The finishing branch seems to have been introduced as "something different", to give EBD a chance to write slightly "older" storylines - i.e. Elma and the dodgy boyfriend - and also as a precursor to moving the main part of the school to Switzerland given that Austria was still partitioned and occupied by the Allies at the time. I don't know whether Oberland maybe didn't go down very well or whether she just went off the idea, but I suppose once she'd opened it she couldn't really just close it again.

It is a rather odd sort of finishing school, though! The idea of having a London season would still have been going even by the end of the series - the Duchess of Cornwall had a year at a Swiss finishing school before going into "society" and she'd have been born 8 years after the triplets - and it would've been mainly people from that world going to finishing school in the '50s and '60s, not people like Mary-Lou and Bride.

But, as Sunglass said, that wouldn't have worked unless a load of new characters were brought in. Maybe that was what EBD originally planned when she wrote Oberland, in which a lot of the girls weren't at the CS? I would think that it was probably just something that seemed like a good idea at the time, and because it was near the main school couldn't then be shoved into the background as easily as the rarely-mentioned Carnbach branch was.

In its later years when the CS is based in one of the most expensive countries in the world and parents must have had to pay a fortune for all that sports gear etc, there are far fewer upper-class girls there than there were in the early years when fees were probably far lower... probably not deliberate but even so ...

#4:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:26 am
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But St Millie's had been around in the English books but was known as Special Sixth. It was only when they went to the Oberland that it became know as something different. I know Caroline German explained in Robin that it would be started for all those girls who had gaps in their education because of the War

#5:  Author: RosieLocation: Land of Three-Quarters Sky PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:39 pm
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The Special Sixth at least wasn't presented as a 'finishing' branch/school, though. I was going to say it seems much more academic, with the girls specialising before university entrance (cf The History Boys, perhaps, only just the academic side...), but of course, the Millies also specialise academically! Maybe the difference is that the latter aren't purely academic, but there to become young adults etc. It is also much more separate from the main school, both physically and in daily contact.

It is just a bit of a random place, isn't it?!

#6:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:12 pm
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Some of the girls who go on to St Mildred's have reached the top of the main school but are young to be leaving school, or have to wait to go on to whatever training they want. In Challenge, Heather Clayton had to wait to start her nursing training, and went to St Mildred's rather than repeat the year at the school proper.

The triplets might have gone for their final year, since they had reached the top of the school at seventeen, but EBD naturally wanted to keep them in the story for as long as possible, so she came up with reasons why they stayed on at the main school.

I think there was a real point to St Mildred's as long as the main school was in England or Wales - it gave the older girls a chance to see something of the world, at a time when Britain was still very much in the post war period of rationing and austerity and very few people travelled, and to work on their languages. It was a kind of further education for girls who didn't want to go on to university.

There seems to be much less point to it once the school proper is out in Switzerland, because the girls have already done the travel and the languages by the time they get there. It's not so easy to see what benefit girls such as Mary Lou, who are in the right year for their age, and who plan to go on to university, get from their year as Millies.

#7:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:19 pm
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Maybe its like a gap year for most the girls?

#8:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:35 pm
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Josette gives her reason for wanting to go to St Mildred's as being spending more time with her friends ... which doesn't seem very convincing. I know that it's weird when you leave school and go to different unis/colleges and are split up after several years together, but I'm not sure how one more year's going to make that easier.

It probably did them good having a year with fewer restrictions - going straight from the very regimented life at the CS to the relative freedom of university must have been a major culture shock - but it does seem to've been seen more as a year out/gap year than anything else.

For people not going on to further education, who are very few by the end of the series, it was maybe just another year before going "home" and husband-hunting or whatever else they were going to do - doesn't Dick Bettany say something about Peggy being too young to come home yet?

I wonder why EBD only wrote the one book set there - does anyone know if Oberland was received badly?

#9:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:54 pm
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Alison H wrote:
Josette gives her reason for wanting to go to St Mildred's as being spending more time with her friends ... which doesn't seem very convincing. I know that it's weird when you leave school and go to different unis/colleges and are split up after several years together, but I'm not sure how one more year's going to make that easier.


In a way I can kind of understand Josette wanting to stay cos she did have two years away from them all and then seemed to find it hard fitting back in. She goes from being best friends with Lesley Malcolm, Vi Lucy and Doris Hill and being one of the leaders in the form to having all her best friends go up a form at the end of Three go to then leave the following term after that. When she gets back she doesn't appear to have a best friend any more. Vi Lucy has become Mary Lou's best friend but chums up with Barbara, Doris Hill stays at Carnbach and goodness knows what happens to Lesley, she seems to pair up with someone else like Hilary or Ruth Barnes. Its at the point where Madge says she's glad Josette has found a best friend when she meets Jo Scott so obviously it has been as issue as I had never seen Josette as being best friendless.
She probably wanted one more year before she's split up again and Canada had probably been sold as a good thing as it was her health (and age) that was given as the reason she wasn't promoted and therefore seperated from her friends

oops, I'm probably a bit off topic here. Back to St Millie's. I think EBD probably wrote it as a one off as her focus was the main school. It would have been nice to have read a book about Carnbach too

#10:  Author: EmerenceLocation: Australia PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:14 am
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Great thread! I'm enjoying reading about the finishing branch.

Out of curiosity does anyone have a transcript of Oberland floating around anywhere? It's one of only two CSes missing from my collection (the other being Mystery), and also the only one I've never read. I'm very curious about St Mildred's ...

#11:  Author: Laura VLocation: Perth, Australia PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:23 pm
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Tom Gay going to St Mildreds also puzzled me. Surely a finishing school is a place for 'young ladies'!

#12:  Author: JSLocation: Perthshire PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:00 pm
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I enjoyed Oberland - it was one of the first books I had (old copy that my mother had) although reading it at quite a young age I had some difficulty with some of the concepts. For example, Edna and make-up. There's a line where it says she goes around with pale lips and shiny face and I (aged very young) wasn't sure if this was what she'd look like after make-up or before!

I don't remember having any problems with the Elma storyline, but I did think it odd that they got into trouble for playing cards on a Sunday. Clearly I had a heaten upbringing.

To get back to the purpose of the thread, it did seem a bit of a nice idea when the school was in England and even when it was some way away at Welsen. But when it became effectively another house of the school proper, it seemed a bit superfluous (although it was always handy to have any nice French girls who happened to be there to arrange the ballet for the pantomime!)

#13:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:10 pm
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It never occurred to me to think of Special Sixth as a previous version of St Mildred's. I suppose it would make sense if St Mildred's was billed as something other than a 'finishing school', which meant the acquiring of a very specific kind of social 'finish', before you were launched on the marriage market during the next Season. I think the problem is that EBD is trying - I don't know how consciously - to reinvent the finishing school as a less frivolous entity. She wants to present a new face of the CS, and maybe, as someone suggested upthread, to write more about the older girls, and have a reason for some favoured characters to come 'back to school' or have another year.

But the fact remains that the cohort of CS girls who go on there are not, in general, potential debutantes, and if they were, the kinds of education they go on acquiring at St M's would not fit them in any way for the Season and an upper-class marriage. Some are in fact going on to university - whereas Fiona McCarthy says in her debutante memoir that only she and one other deb in the 1958 season were going on to Oxford (clearly other universities don't count!) and that they were very much regarded as oddities and bluestockings.

But maybe EBD, with her own emphasis on education, thought that finishing schools were more academic than they were - in which case, maybe she did see them as outposts of Special Sixth?

#14:  Author: PatLocation: Doncaster PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:28 pm
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JS wrote:

I don't remember having any problems with the Elma storyline, but I did think it odd that they got into trouble for playing cards on a Sunday. Clearly I had a heaten upbringing.


This goes back to the time when Sunday was kept very special. At one time there were different books and games for Sundays. I remember back in the 60s that we avoided buying anything on a Sunday because it meant that people had to work. Our minister's kids weren't even allowed to go to the beach and swim.

#15:  Author: JBLocation: Cumbria PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:52 pm
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I feel there are lot of inconsistencies about how St Mildreds is treated. At first, the majority of the sixth form go there for a year or two. Even Julie, who has been kept back at the school proper for a year due to her peritonitis, spends two years there before going on to University.

Later in the series, more girls seem to give it a miss and go straight to University or, like Maeve Bettany, go straight to a career.

I agree that the concept makes more sense when the school proper was in England.

#16:  Author: abbeybufoLocation: in a world of her own PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:09 pm
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In Bride, when the new prefects are having their first [unofficial IIRC] meeting, they talk about how much younger they are than their predecessors, as the older ones have all gone off to St M's - so it looks as if the original intention was a kind of sixth-form college, as we would term it now

#17:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:14 pm
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But they don't take exams at St Mildred's, do they? They've already done their A Levels, or Higher School Cert, if that's what it was called, by the time they get there. So it's definitely post-Sixth form.

#18:  Author: JSLocation: Perthshire PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:29 pm
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Quote:
JS wrote:

I don't remember having any problems with the Elma storyline, but I did think it odd that they got into trouble for playing cards on a Sunday. Clearly I had a heaten upbringing.


Sorry, obviously meant 'heathen' - I even have problems with the word! My dad, brought up a Catholic in a predominantly Protestant part of town (this was 1940s/50s Dundee) recalls being told off for whistling on a Sunday and as for playing football, well, the local gums would be bumping!

But even my grandparents (on the other side), very Church of Scotland (I recall Grandpa saying to me one hot Sunday as I was accompanying him to church in a very respectable skirt suit and long-sleeved shirt to 'put on yer jacket, others might gang aboot half neckit (naked) but that's no cause for us to'.

Having said that, I'm sure they played cards every day of the week, but only whist so maybe that was okay!

We're about to see an example of how times have changed this Sunday coming. When my parents were children, only the Catholic kids were allowed to go out and roll their eggs on Easter Sunday - the Protestants were allowed to go for a genteel walk but nothing so exuberant as egg-rolling. I don't think it's religion-based now (only problem is that with egg hunts and the like it's getting too Americanised but maybe that's a rant for another day.........)

#19:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:13 pm
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I just looked again at the beginning of Oberland and noted that Bill, at the very start of St Mildred's first year, definitely uses the word 'finish' about the girls' characters, not their social graces, which is a very EBD take on the finishing school. I also hadn't noticed before quite how apparently accidental the initial size (39 girls) of St Mildred's is - from what Bill says, they'd intended it solely for CS girls, but when Peggy Bettany's friend Nell Randolph asked if she could come, a bunch of other people and schools got wind of it, and it grew from there. (Again, like the CS itself, word of mouth, not advertising...) There is also a reference, when Bill is dividing up the Millies into three 'forms' with different specialisms, to one form intended specifically for 'younger girls who were likely to make a stay of two years' - which, given that we're told that all the new girls are aged between 16 and 18, sounds as though some can't yet have done their final school exams... Which makes calling it a finishing school more and more odd.

Interestingly, there's also more talk of money and wealth early on in the novel than I'd remembered. EBD is clearly aware of RL finishing school fees and the cost of living in Switzerland. We hear about Miss Annersley paying Nell's fees, because her family is poor, and that Nita Eltringham has a scholarship intended for CS girls, but that virtually everyone else is from 'wealthy or well-to-do' families. (I wonder precisely what the difference is? Rich vs comfortable? ) Also that Bill has decided to keep Nita and Nell's circumstances to herself, for some reason which is never quite explained, but which has something to do with not knowing how the non-CS girls will react to the knowledge. Is it significant that the least likeable new girl is the daughter of a nouveau riche cosmetics magnate?

#20:  Author: ElaLocation: London Village PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:17 pm
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Something that puzzles me about St Mildred's, or more specifically about Tom Gay attending. Her father is a clergyman, and presumably not all that well off, which is the reason why she initially won't be going to the Oberland along with her friends. But, in a twinkling, her father is made canon (IIRC), and suddenly there is enough spare cash for Tom to attend an expensive "finishing school", and later for the Gays to endow a scholarship. Is this likely? Was Mr Gay's promotion likely to lead to such an increase in the family's living standards?

#21:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:38 pm
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From context, it appears as though the Canonry was a far richer living. I think back then a clergyman's - and it was always man's, in those days - income depended very much on where his parish was. There wasn't, I don't think, a standardised stipend the way there is now. Canon Gay would have quite possibly had quite a fair salary increase.

Mind you, he was already paying school fees for Tom. The implication is that St Mildred's fees are somewhat more expensive than the Chalet proper, otherwise he might not have had a problem with them!

#22:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:31 pm
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I would imagine that either branch in Switzerland would have been more expensive than the English branch because of travel costs and the costs associated with sending luggage over to the Continent.

#23:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:59 am
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Plus the cost of living was much higher in Switzerland (is it in New Mistress they talk about the cost of a cup of coffee?) so they'd have had to charge more just to cover food, heating, wages of domestic staff, etc.

And the cost of expeditions, of which there had been very few during Tom's time at school in England (and none overnight), but which were a major part of the school's life in Switzerland, and the extra clothes and equipment needed for rambling/climbing and winter sports.

Plus going to St Mildred's would push back by a year the time when Tom would be able to start earning her own living and be independent of her parents. If the Gays were hoping to start saving for retirement when Tom finished university, that might be an issue.

#24:  Author: MiriamLocation: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:04 pm
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JayB wrote:
But they don't take exams at St Mildred's, do they? They've already done their A Levels, or Higher School Cert, if that's what it was called, by the time they get there. So it's definitely post-Sixth form.


Yes they do, or at least they hav e the option. In whichever book Len takes Higher it describes them all lining up outside the hall, and there is specific mention that some of the Millies had come to take Higher.

Tey didn't do it the first year or two - not until the CS was next door with an exam centre, but later on the option was there - maybe for girls who had failed the first time, or girls who had left school early in order to get a year abroad, but still needed to do exams.

#25:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:53 pm
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I don't know how anyone at the CS passed the public exams Confused Laughing - a lot of them weren't always in the "right" form for their age and ended up either skipping forms or spending ages in the VIth form, the 3 languages issue must've muddled the teaching of the syllabus, and lessons were always being interrupted for walks/winter sports/water sports!

#26:  Author: RosieLocation: Land of Three-Quarters Sky PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:16 am
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I have the impression they didn't really do the public exams at all, but am not entirely sure how accurate an impression this may be... I assume they didn't in Tyrol, but there are mentions from Wales onwards, right? Perhaps it all seems rather incidental compared to the importance of GCSEs and A-Levels now!

I agree; they must have passed simply by being good Chalet girls...

#27:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:27 am
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They did exams in Armishire - there are references to Biddy O'Ryan and her friends writing to Robin at the beginning of Highland Twins about their Higher School Certificate results - and presumably even to St Briavel's. They didn't when they first moved to Switzerland, but in one of the early Swiss books Hilda announces that the school's now an approved centre for GCE exams so presumably they were doing O-levels and A-levels.

There are various mentions of public exams - Josette worries about losing revision time when she's ill in Trials, and the girls from St Hilda's come over to sit the public exams at the CS in one of the later books - but no-one ever seems to mention their results. Presumably they all passed by being good Chalet girls, as you said, and got into uni the same way!

EBD could've made a good storyline out of someone failing, like when Alicia failed her School Cert in Malory Towers because she was ill ...

#28:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:14 pm
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Alison H wrote:
Presumably they all passed by being good Chalet girls, as you said, and got into uni the same way!

EBD could've made a good storyline out of someone failing, like when Alicia failed her School Cert in Malory Towers because she was ill ...


Yes, even though she does talk about girls who are not academically bright or particularly diligent, she doesn't seem prepared to use failure of poor marks in an exam (even with illness as a get-out clause) as a plot point, which one would have thought would be an obvious plot, even an interesting one for someone who writes a lot about physical and psychological fragility. Although I found myself wondering (a) did EBD take public exams herself? Not being British, I have very little familiarity about the 'place' of public exams for girls during her lifetime. Also (b) would it have been the case that only some, possibly even a minority, of the CS seniors would actually have sat public exams? Would the self-proclaimed 'duds' and/or those not planning careers simply not take them, and this would be considered entirely normal?

#29:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:28 pm
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Attitudes changed a lot in the 20th century. So did the exams themselves - School Cert/Matric/Higher School Cert were replaced by O-levels (and later CSEs) and A-levels in ... I looked up the date for one of my drabbles and can't remember it now Embarassed , but it was late '40s/early '50s, and then GCEs and CSEs were replaced by GCSEs which were first taken in 1988. However, the general idea's the same - one lot usually at 16 and one lot usually at 18. So those people leaving school before 16 would not have taken them, but that wouldn't apply to the girls at the CS.

In the early days of the CS, when most of the girls didn't intend to go on to further training, it would've been unlikely that many people would've done public exams, but I would think that people like Juliet who went on to university would've done, although it's never mentioned. Certainly by the end of the series you'd expect all the girls to be taking public exams. It's just something that EBD puts very little emphasis on, despite the plotlines that she could've got from it - girl fails due to illness, over-confident girl who doesn't work hard enough gets her "pride comes before a fall" come-uppance by failing badly, girl collapses due to exam stress, etc.

#30:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:37 pm
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Alison H wrote:
girl collapses due to exam stress, etc.


No, she'd be sent to bed in the middle of the exam, overruled by Matey or one of the San doctors, if she looked poorly.

It does seem odd though, how little emphasis is placed on exams, particularly in the later days. The girls write them, but no one ever seems to fail them. Maybe that was the reason for holding girls back two or three times, so when they got to the exams, they'd be sure to pass.

#31:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:43 pm
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Presumably, when the school was in the Tyrol, the girls would have taken public exams (those like Juliet, as you say, though I would have thought Simone, the other early careerist, would have needed the baccalaureat or its 1930s equivalent to enter the Sorbonne - France has never been particularly impressed by the idea of foreign equivalents!) at a centre in Britain, then? And, really, all of the girls would be expecting to sit public exams by the Swiss years? Interesting - I'd been vaguely assuming that it would still have been not uniform...

Yes, the more I think of Enid Blyton's school stories, the more I think EBD is missing out on a fertile source of plot points - the bad girl sneaking into the mistress's desk to sneak a peek at the French paper for which she hasn't studied! Although perhaps that falls under the category of Things Too Bad to Depict in a Girls' School Story - the kind of thing for which Matey ticked off Joey's original villainess (Rosetta Fernandez?) in Malvina Wins Through?

#32:  Author: RosieLocation: Land of Three-Quarters Sky PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:15 pm
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Sunglass wrote:
I would have thought Simone, the other early careerist, would have needed the baccalaureat or its 1930s equivalent to enter the Sorbonne - France has never been particularly impressed by the idea of foreign equivalents!) at a centre in Britain, then?


Simone mentions working for her bac at some point, although I am not sure if she aims to get it before she goes to the Sorbonne, or once she gets there! Sadly, whilst I'd love to spend the afternoon/evening trying to find Simone's academic ambitions, I have a date with a book about her country's role in WWI... (And it is boring me a great deal.)

#33:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:27 pm
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I was at school in the 1960s, and going to university was by no means a foregone conclusion then. Almost everybody did O levels, at least at the school I was at - it was certainly not universal, although I think all schools offered them - but for those who stayed on into the sixth form, there was a one-year "General" course offered; people could resit an O level for a better grade, or just study subjects that interested them for a final year. People did go to university, of course, but entrance requirements were harder than they are now (there were, of course, fewer universities), and normally included an interview before a conditional offer was made. Grades for people wanting to read science subjects were significantly lower than for arts!

#34:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:01 am
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KB wrote:
I would imagine that either branch in Switzerland would have been more expensive than the English branch because of travel costs and the costs associated with sending luggage over to the Continent.


EBD more or less tells us that it's the cost generally, rather than St Mildred's in particular, doesn't she, when Bride and Co. argue that Tom might as well come to St Mildred's as the school is going to Switzerland anyway and Bess replies that Tom might have to stay at Glendower House because her people are so "poor". Yes, here's the passage:

Changes wrote:
‘There’s one thing,’ Julie said, as they turned and sauntered down the drive, ‘and that is all this ought to dispose of Tom’s objections, oughtn’t it? I mean, if the school at large is going to Switzerland, she might just as well go to the Welsen branch as the one up at the Platz.’

‘Yes; that’s true,’ Bride agreed. ‘Good! I’d have hated to miss old Tom after all this years together.’

Bess, who was in many ways the most thoughtful of them all, shook her head, ‘I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Tom’s people may decide that she must go on and finish at St Agnes’. I know they’re fearfully poor, for I’ve heard Dad say so. He always said it was a shame that Mr Gay didn’t have a better living after the way he’s worked.’


Sunglass wrote:
And, really, all of the girls would be expecting to sit public exams by the Swiss years? Interesting - I'd been vaguely assuming that it would still have been not uniform...


I think another difference between then and now is that, while all the girls would be expected to sit public exams, they may well have only been entered in those subjects where they were deemed good enough to pass. And they wouldn't necessarily do all their exams in one year - it's a classic public school thing for everyone to sit maths O level at 15, for instance, rather than 16. Also, I suspect they took a varying number of exams depending on ability (and a much smaller number than we take today). My mother, for instance, only sat five O levels in the 1950s, and didn't take maths at all.

With much smaller numbers of entrants sitting a smaller number of exams, you can be pretty flexible. For School Cert, IIRC, you only sat five or six subjects, and although you had to do them all the same year to Matriculate (I think), you only needed Matric. if you were planning on going to Uni.

#35:  Author: CBWLocation: Kent PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:21 pm
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Quote:
Also, I suspect they took a varying number of exams depending on ability (and a much smaller number than we take today). My mother, for instance, only sat five O levels in the 1950s, and didn't take maths at all.


My Mother's grammer school had a limit of 8 for O Levels and 3 for A Levels and didn't permit anyone to take any more than that. She says that was standard for the time with girls taking between 5 and 8 O Levels depending on ability/interest/career choice.

#36:  Author: KatyaLocation: Lost in translation PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:30 pm
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I recall at least one of my parents (possibly both) saying that you had to pass five O-levels in the same exam session in order to get your General Certificate of Education - it wasn't a GCE in each subject, but a General Certificate, hence the need for a range.* This would have been the late 50s/early 60s. Whether, and if so when, this changed, I don't know, but I'm sure I've heard of people passing fewer O-levels than that. And doing more than three A-levels, unless it was double maths (have completely forgotten what the 'extra' maths A-level is called - dur!) was almost unheard of (as was getting three As).

*Reading previous posts again, maybe this was actually matriculation? Not sure... And at my secondary school, the top group in maths all took GCSE in 4th year not 5th, then did AS.

#37:  Author: MaryRLocation: Cheshire PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:53 pm
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Katya wrote:
I recall at least one of my parents (possibly both) saying that you had to pass five O-levels in the same exam session in order to get your General Certificate of Education - it wasn't a GCE in each subject, but a General Certificate, hence the need for a range.*

I went at to school at the same time as your parents, Katya, and each subject counted on its own merits. You didn't have to get five for it to count. I only passed four as I was ill, but they still counted - and took two more in the Sixth, along with A leverls. But we could only take the exam if we had passed our mock exams earlier in the year. And we certainly didn't take as many O or A levels as they do today.

#38:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:01 pm
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MaryR wrote:
Katya wrote:
I recall at least one of my parents (possibly both) saying that you had to pass five O-levels in the same exam session in order to get your General Certificate of Education - it wasn't a GCE in each subject, but a General Certificate, hence the need for a range.*

I went at to school at the same time as your parents, Katya, and each subject counted on its own merits. You didn't have to get five for it to count. I only passed four as I was ill, but they still counted - and took two more in the Sixth, along with A leverls. But we could only take the exam if we had passed our mock exams earlier in the year. And we certainly didn't take as many O or A levels as they do today.


I think it was School Certificate (General at sixteen, Higher at eighteen) where you had to pass 5 or 6 subjects in one session to Matriculate - O levels were never like that, AFAIK. And the other thing about School Cert was that at the General stage, the whole year group would have taken the same 5 or 6 subjects. And that was it - none of this GCSE escalation you get these days with brighter kids being pushed to take 10+ subjects.

Am I right in thinking that if you matriculated at the General stage, you didn't need to take any subjects Higher School Cert to get into Uni? And of course, if you didn't want to go to Uni, you didn't need to matriculate...

#39:  Author: KatyaLocation: Lost in translation PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:07 pm
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MaryR wrote:
...each subject counted on its own merits. You didn't have to get five for it to count. I only passed four as I was ill, but they still counted - and took two more in the Sixth, along with A leverls. But we could only take the exam if we had passed our mock exams earlier in the year. And we certainly didn't take as many O or A levels as they do today.


I wonder what my dad was on about, then? Because I'm sure that's what he said... Unless it depended on the exam board - I know he and my mum have frequent disagreements about what subjects they were required to take, and marking schemes, and... Rolling Eyes Very Happy

#40:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:23 pm
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My mum and dad did 8 O-levels each (in 1961). I did 9 GCSEs (in 1990), as did everyone else in my year, but then the school increased it so my sister and the other people in her year did 10 (in 1993). Some people seem to do 12 or 13 now. And we all did 3 A-levels, plus most people did General Studies, but it was almost unheard of for anyone to do more than that.

You had to have 5 GCSEs at Grade C or over to go on to the 6th form now ... and don't the school league tables base points on the number of pupils getting 5 GCSEs at Grade C or over?

To get back to the question of the Chalet School, some people specialise in various areas and "don't take" certain subjects in the 6th form, but we never see people choosing their options/deciding which subjects to sit public exams in.

#41:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:06 pm
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Regarding dropping - it seems to always be either math and/or science which are dropped, or art and music. I don't think we ever see a student dropping English, or History or French and German.

What subjects would these exams be offered in?

#42:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:09 pm
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Pretty much any subject. Usually it would be compulsory to do maths, English language, English Lit and (until recently) French for GCSE.

I love the idea of people not being able to drop history, though!

#43:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:12 pm
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I look at it from the science geek's point of view - it's always much, much more socially acceptable to be bad at math and ditch it at the first opportunity than it is to say "I hate history" or "I hate reading and I'm bad at it", and be told "Oh, that's okay, you're just not literarily inclined".

#44:  Author: PaulineSLocation: West Midlands PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:29 pm
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"O" levels from the start were taken as separate subjects and counted singley. By the sixties some Universities, training colleges and hospitals would expect a student to pass at least five at one attempt. However they may take English Langauge or literature or both plus maths at the end of the fourth form and then take either French or German, two or three sciences, Geography, History, or RE to give a total of eight subjects and five at one sitting.

Not all schools offered public exams, secondary moderns and county secondary's certainly did not. Rosamund and Joan would not have taken "O" levels at the school they were at.

GCSE's came in the late sixties so that none grammer schools could offer exams. Prior to that some might have taken Royal Society of Arts exams ( the boys could at the county secondary I went to, but the girls could not) or go to a branch college of commerce or technology to take commerical or domestic science subjects at RSA or National Diploma level, a pre-Higher National Diploma level which was equivelent to "A" levels and was replaced by BTec in the seventies or eighties.

At the early CS the girls who went on to University often had coaching to prepare them. before the St Mildred's, so I read it that St Mildred's gave them small group teaching so seperate coaching was unnecessary and they achieve the university entry.

#45:  Author: JaneLocation: Southampton PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:28 pm
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Rosamund and Joan would have taken CSEs (Certificates of Secondary Education) which were a less demanding public exam alongside O Levels for people (usually) at secondary moderns. Both were replaced by GCSEs. I suppose the lower and higher tiers of GCSE were brought in when it became clear that it really was difficult to set one exam for all attainment levels...

When my mother took her School Cert in about 1949, you did have to pass all the subjects to get the certificate - she failed one, and it scarred her for life. I only recently found out that she resat the following year and passed with credit! Her birthday is August 26 so she was very young the first time.

#46:  Author: LollyLocation: Back in London PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:42 pm
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PaulineS wrote:


GCSE's came in the late sixties so that none grammer schools could offer exams. .


Pauline, I think you are confusing CSEs with GCSEs....GCSEs came in in the late 80s I believe. I took them in 1992 and could recall the change from O level to GCSE happening while I was at the school. And many of our teachers still referred to O levels...

#47:  Author: arky72Location: Cheshire PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:09 pm
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Lolly wrote:
PaulineS wrote:


GCSE's came in the late sixties so that none grammer schools could offer exams. .


Pauline, I think you are confusing CSEs with GCSEs....GCSEs came in in the late 80s I believe. I took them in 1992 and could recall the change from O level to GCSE happening while I was at the school. And many of our teachers still referred to O levels...


I took my Maths GCSE in 1988, the first year of the exams, and then another 8 in 1989 alongside an A/O level in Maths. Both my year and the year above were termed "guinea pigs"as no one seemed to have any idea if the new exam system would be successful or not! It must have been ok, as they are still doing them now, but they added A* results in at some point - the highest grade I could get was an A.

#48:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:19 pm
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A*s came in some time in the 2nd half of the 1990s but I'm not sure exactly when. I was in the 3rd year to do GCSEs and they were still messing about with them then! I think we were also the last year who had to apply separately to UCCA and PCAS (universities and polytechnics) before everything got merged. They don't half mess about with the system ...

#49:  Author: abbeybufoLocation: in a world of her own PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:44 pm
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I left school in 1967 [after taking my A-Levels] and don't think CSEs had come in by then, tho' as it was an academic school they may have passed me by - so don't think Joan Baker would have still been at school to benefit - think she'd probably have had to settle for RSA or similar for the secretarial skills and hope for a pass GCE [5 or higher - 1 being best and 3 being the lowest we were expected to produce Shocked ]
My elder stepdaughter was taking both GCEs and CSEs [2 exams in the same subject, for several of them!] in about 1980 so they were still separate then, can't remember if they'd been merged by time younger s-daughter did hers a couple of years later, but she didn't live with us, so the memories of her schooldays less sharp than those of the elder one who lived with us from the age of 13 - 21 Confused

#50:  Author: BeckyLocation: Newport, South Wales, UK PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:46 pm
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I did GCSEs in 1996 and we had A* then (I got A* in French and German Laughing ), but my SLOC said they weren't available when he did GCSEs - that was either 93 or 94.

#51:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:03 pm
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A* was a cunning way to 'improve' results as it made four 'pass' grades instead of only two i.e.A* A B and C. Candidates who would have achieved D now got a C and so on.

#52:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:10 pm
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Becky wrote:
I did GCSEs in 1996 and we had A* then (I got A* in French and German Laughing ), but my SLOC said they weren't available when he did GCSEs - that was either 93 or 94.


My daughter did hers in 1995, and I think A*s were still pretty new. Certainly I'd said she could have contact lenses if she got all As (I really didn't want her to have them until she was 18, not 16!), and she got a mixture of As and A*s, which was not exactly what I'd meant.... but she still got her contact lenses! I have a feeling 1995 was the first year the grade was introduced, but I could be wrong, it could have been 1994.

#53:  Author: Lisa_TLocation: Belfast PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:33 am
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I did GCSEs in 95, and A* was new for that cohort. I got it in History and always believed until I got an A at A'level and then a First that it was because I had chicken pox the week I sat the second history paper.

I suppose parts of the old mentality still linger - you're still expected to have 5 A*-C passes to get anywhere, and at Queen's, at any rate, you had to 'matriculate' before you could be admitted to the university. According to them, this simply meant presenting proof of your A'levels. Then they computerised the whole thing and registering for the new year stopped being an all-day process since they had instant access to all the records they had on you.

Re exams and the CS - there's several mentions of exam-stress. Wins The Trick comes to mind, also Problem (HB). The latter always makes me laugh because Miss A has just said she doesn't want to send public exam people home for the summer in a state of post-examitis collapse, which triggers a rather bizarre interchange between Biddy and Nancy re the Abbess's comments when they were doing their exams. Only Biddy was a good few years younger than Nancy...

#54:  Author: KarryLocation: Stoke on Trent PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:39 am
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I was, in 1969, the first year in Nottinghm not to do the 11+, as we had gone comprehensive. The school I went to was a previous Secondary Modern (much to my elder sisters' disgust, they had both gone to West Bridgeford Grammer, which was where they had expected me to go!). The year aboveme all did the CSE (Certificate of Secondary Education) exams, with no chance of doing O Levels. We were streamed into the Grammer stream, SM stream, and 'Other' streams. It was further complicated by us being the first year that the leaving age was raised to 16. We had a very tough 5th year with those people who had expected to leave at 15 being forced to stay on a year until 16! Those of us in the Grammer stream were not allowed to do subjects such as Typing or Cooking, as that was reserved for the SM stream! How things have changed!

#55:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:59 pm
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abbeybufo wrote:
My elder stepdaughter was taking both GCEs and CSEs [2 exams in the same subject, for several of them!] in about 1980 so they were still separate then, can't remember if they'd been merged by time younger s-daughter did hers a couple of years later


I was in the last year of GCE O levels / CSE - sat mine in the summer of 1987.

As a grammar school we didn't actually sit any CSE's, just O levels, but what we did take was the "16+" exam in a couple of subjects - these were trial versions of GCSE's brought in ahead of the offical first year (who sat their exams in summer of '88 ). For the 16+ you had a choice of papers at different levels - basic, intermediate, advanced - and you got two certificates - one with GCE grades on and one with CSE grades on. I think it worked out that if you took intermediate papers the highest grade you could get was a B at GCE / Grade 1 CSE. You had to take the advanced (or whatever it was called) to be able to get an A.

So, I could say that I have eight O levels (C's and B's) and four CSEs at Grade 1. Although someone might spot that the four CSEs are in the same subjects as four of the O levels...

#56:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:42 pm
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Just a word for those who imagine that CSE was an easy option. I taught it for many years and the candidates had to produce a folder of work that covered all types of writing for the English component, and all types of responses for Literature to cover prose,poetry and drama + imaginative responses to these three genres.

And the two exams were no picnic either. So a grade 1 CSE was the equivalent of a 'C' grade in GCE.

It was reckoned that a decent folder had a minimum óf 40 pieces of work, so you can imagine the marking when you had a class of 30, all to be done by the end of April in the year of the exam.

#57:  Author: claireLocation: South Wales PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:25 pm
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Another one who did GCSEs and was one of the first to have A* as an option - got 1

#58:  Author: KarryLocation: Stoke on Trent PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm
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Quote:
Just a word for those who imagine that CSE was an easy option. I taught it for many years and the candidates had to produce a folder of work that covered all types of writing for the English component, and all types of responses for Literature to cover prose,poetry and drama + imaginative responses to these three genres.

And the two exams were no picnic either. So a grade 1 CSE was the equivalent of a 'C' grade in GCE.
Echoes Jennie, in as much as when we had finisshed English language a year early in the above mentioned grammar stream, with 100% pass, we then did CSE English, with more like 65% getting grade 1!

#59:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:41 pm
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I remember it well Jennie. It was a nightmare hounding kids for all that coursework for CSE and I've never felt the same about Mr Polly!



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