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'girl' vs 'woman' in the CS world
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4922
Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  'girl' vs 'woman' in the CS world
This came to mind off the back of the New Mistress thread, when I was thinking about how girlish, even childish, Kathie Ferrars is represented as being at the start of the novel. But EBD quite often refers to mistresses as 'girls'. (And there's the moment when Jack Maynard addresses - as far as I can remember, in one of the St Briavel's books - Bill and Hilda as 'you girls'...)

Can we come up with a rough approximation of when, in the CS world, one crosses over the boundary between girlhood and womanhood? Some of it will obviously be period-specific (and 'girlish' is certainly one of her favourite terms of approbation, whether it's Joan Baker's more suitable dress, or a mistress's appearance, or Joey still running about and being a madcap).

But I've often found her idea of girlhood a bit long - personally, I would have stopped thinking of myself as a girl by my early 20s, though I have a friend who is a year older than I am (both mid-thirties) who thinks of women of our age as girls. (And don't get me started on my father and late grandfather, who cheerfully referred to a neighbour as 'the girl Horgan' - she must have been well into her 70s, though unmarried and hence, in a certain Irish dialect, a 'girl'...)

But when does someone move from girl to woman for EBD? Specific instances of female characters past, say, university age being referred to as girls would be good, too.
Author:  Ray [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would *think* that the divider is when the character gets married. The only exception to this that I can think of is that Joey gets called a girl after she's married - but she does end up marrying quite young, and I don't *think* she gets called a girl after Jack's "missing" episode in Highland Twins. (In fact, I think it's Madge who reflects that Jack going missing has robbed Joey of her last girlishness - or something to that effect.)

This does, of course, effectively mean that Hilda and Nell could still be called girls at the end of the series...

Ray *thinks both might actually be flattered by that point!*
Author:  Alison H [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
My mum often refers to her friends - all in their early 60s - as "the girls" :lol:. It depends how you take it - it can seem quite nice in that it suggests light-heartedly that you're still young, but it can also seem quite insulting and patronising depending whom it's coming from.

Kathie is referred to as "a young woman" early on - I think it's in the context of her aunt telling her that she's a university graduate about to take on a responsible job, rather than a kid.

In terms of using the expression "girls" seriously rather than jokingly - presumably Jack does not really think of the school headmistresses as "girls" - young mistresses and young married women certainly still seem to be classed as "girls". Joey however rather bizarrely says "I love girls" when asking Janie Lucy to introduce her to Nan Blakeney, suggesting that Nan is a "girl" whereas she and Janie are women. Janie must have been in her late 20s by then, but Joey was only in her early 20s. Madge early on in the series is often referred to as a girl.
Author:  Caroline [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I suppose the formal adult / child cut off in those days was 21 - when you legally became an adult by attaining your majority.

Then, I agree with Ray that marriage probably had something to do with it - the matron / maid divide.

Things like a lot of GO books and the Girls Own Annual and such were written for an older age group that we would think of for children's books today - 16-24 is an age span I've seen quoted.

And then there's the manner in which the word girl is used. In the authorial voice I would say there usually is an age / marriage cut off. In the voice of various characters, it is used more loosely - an older character might say to a younger character "that's what you think, my girl" (or some such), or say "my dear girl" in the same manner as people get called "my dear good kid" when we wouldn't regard them as a kid / child any more.

EBD seems to use "little girl" to apply to anyone up to about 14, particularly in the early books. To my mind, these days, a little girl is definitely an under-10.

There you go - some random thoughts on this Friday afternoon... :D
Author:  Maeve [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
In the early books, putting one's hair up when one was 17 or 18 was considered a sign of growing up, IIRC. So that was one rite of passage at that time and marriage was definitely another. I suppose smoking in the early books would also be a sign of being an adult. I recall being surprised in Jo Returns, I think it is, when Joey calmly accepts a cigarette or lights up or something.

Maybe another marker is starting work? I always thought of Beth Chester in Barbara as being a grown-up, even though she hasn't been out of school long and is working for a family friend.
Author:  JS [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
In the early books especially, 'My child' was often used between adults. There was the famous episode in Camp when Grizel was criticised for saying it to Joey (minutes after Joey had said it to her!) but I'm sure the staff said it to each other too. I have a nagging feeling that Charlie said it to Bill or vice versa?
Author:  Sunglass [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
What interested me when I started thinking about it is that EBD doesn't obey any hard and fast rules on the matter. (Leaving aside uses of 'my girl' and 'my child', which I agree are a different thing.)

The marriage/legal adult aged 21/hair up/down distinctions don't seem to quite work, as many people put their hair up significantly before they leave school, and Joey (who admittedly marries young, though not unusually so for the CS world) is described as a girl for a long time after her marriage - also the Robin's mother is a 'Polish girl' after she marries Captain Humphries.

Grizel, Joey and Miss Maynard are all described as 'girls' at the start of 'Head Girl', despite the fact that two are still at school and one is their school's senior mistress and presumably wearing her hair up at 22/3, and Madge is also a 'girl' when she meets them at the station, aged 25/26 and a headmistress. (Biddy O'Ryan is still being described as a girl aged 27.)

Grizel is a ‘girl in her early twenties’ and a ‘grown up girl’, while Stacie is a 'girl' at the start of 'Lintons'.

Barbara Chester (aged 14) and her sister Beth, old enough to have done an Oxford degree and taken a job at Freudesheim - old enough for Rosalie Dene to wonder why she isn't married! - are both 'girls' at the start of 'Barbara', while Frieda Mensch is a 'person' - then a paragraph later Frieda and Beth are 'the grownups'.

My current working theory is that for EBD, being a 'girl' is more desirable than being a woman - even if that 'girl' is legally well into adulthood, has a position of authority/possibly married with several children - so she tries to keep many of her characters 'girls' as long as possible. She also seems slightly obsessed with how young and goodlooking the CS staff are - and presumably to attract all those doctors who keep falling for them at accident scenes, they have to remain girlish and 'trig'.
Author:  LizzieC [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was watching a programme the other day that referred to Motherhood as making a woman out of a girl. Maybe in EBD terms that's a good(ish) rule of thumb to use.*

*Exception obviously applies to Joey, as always ;)
Author:  Alex [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wonder if EBD avoids using woman because of the class connotations of woman vs lady? For example, if she had said that Robin's mother was a Polish lady that would imply one thing, and if she said woman, would that imply that she wasn't a lady? Does that make any kind of sense at all? Of course, to say "girl" suggests that she was younger than him (which I would think she must have been) and hadn't been married before. Hmmmm. Interesting question.
Author:  Pado [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm just reading "Reunion" and Len (age 17, I think) declines a cigarette, saying that she and her sisters have promised not to start until they reach 18. So part of it could be behavioral, similar to putting one's hair up.

Another part might be attitudinal, a continuation of the process of evolving from naughty Middle to responsible Senior. EBD often refers to a character "growing up" suddenly after some significant incident - either Len deciding about Reg, or Con seeing things in a different light etc.

Of course, a pack of 70ish year old ladies living near me call themselves "the girls" and go off on "girls nights out", so ....
Author:  Mia [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass wrote:
My current working theory is that for EBD, being a 'girl' is more desirable than being a woman - even if that 'girl' is legally well into adulthood, has a position of authority/possibly married with several children - so she tries to keep many of her characters 'girls' as long as possible. She also seems slightly obsessed with how young and goodlooking the CS staff are - and presumably to attract all those doctors who keep falling for them at accident scenes, they have to remain girlish and 'trig'.


I personally think by making them appear youthful, EBD was trying to make the staff and other adults as attractive as she could to the market for which she was writing.
Author:  Tara [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Mia, I'm sure it's meant to suggest attractiveness and youthful vigour. The general use of 'woman' for a female adult is quite recent - and we had to fight hard to stop being 'ladies'! It certainly wouldn't have been acceptable in EBD's universe, would have had definite class connotations. It's still true that many older people (of which I admit to being one) think calling one a 'girl' is a compliment, and certainly many older women will refer to their contemporaries as such. It really gets up my nose actually, it feels like a total infantilisation and another way of keeping women in their place, but I admit to being an elderly curmudgeon :D .
Author:  linda [ Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tara wrote:
I agree with Mia, I'm sure it's meant to suggest attractiveness and youthful vigour. The general use of 'woman' for a female adult is quite recent - and we had to fight hard to stop being 'ladies'! It certainly wouldn't have been acceptable in EBD's universe, would have had definite class connotations. It's still true that many older people (of which I admit to being one) think calling one a 'girl' is a compliment, and certainly many older women will refer to their contemporaries as such. It really gets up my nose actually, it feels like a total infantilisation and another way of keeping women in their place, but I admit to being an elderly curmudgeon :D .


I must disagree Tara. Even at my advanced years, I'd far rather be a 'girl' than be referred to as 'woman'. I certainly don't see anthing infantile about it. I was taught to refer to 'ladies' and still do. The same way that I would say 'gentleman' rather than 'man'. I don't think it has anything to do with keeping women in their place,at all. It is just what one feels most comfortable with.
Author:  Shander [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
There's a point in Highlan Twins, I think where Jo tells Sheina to use her first name rather than call her Mrs. Maynard, Sheina protests that she can't because after all "a married woman has more dignity than a girl" or something like that. Sheina was old enough to be called up, which makes me think that the girl/woman divide had a least something to do with marriage.
Author:  Theresa [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:34 am ]
Post subject: 
I've always thought girl/woman was largely to do with marriage. I once had an old Polish gentleman call me a girl and then, very apologetically, ask if I was married--and proceed to be surprised I was older than 15!

I think in EBD's case it certainly was used to suggest youthful charm and endear older characters to young readers.
Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alex wrote:
I wonder if EBD avoids using woman because of the class connotations of woman vs lady? For example, if she had said that Robin's mother was a Polish lady that would imply one thing, and if she said woman, would that imply that she wasn't a lady? Does that make any kind of sense at all? Of course, to say "girl" suggests that she was younger than him (which I would think she must have been) and hadn't been married before. Hmmmm. Interesting question.


I think the 'lady' vs' woman' class connotation is a fair point, and one that would have been more of an issue in a more stratified world. Reading with an eye out for how female people of various ages are described by EBD, it seems to be that she actually uses the word 'woman' quite rarely in general. She mostly uses it either for women she considers definitely in the 'older woman'/lifelong spinster/mother of 'older' schoolgirl category - Mademoiselle Lepattre, Miss Bubb/ Miss Browne/Joyce and Gillian Linton's mother - and for peasant women. 'Mistress' of course means she doesn't actually have to use 'woman' all that much within the school.
Author:  JS [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lady Russell is 'that sweet woman' when Joey's being disparaging. But then she herself was described as a somewhat self-assured young woman (or similar) by Miss Bubb.

But yes, Sunglass, I think you have a point. The term 'woman' does seem to be used (in a dismissive way) in quite a lot of contexts, but particularly to denote age and being somehow less valid than others - eg Mary-Lou's mother would be a woman, but Janie Lucy would probably be girlish?
Author:  JayB [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
EBD does talk (or has her characters talk) about wanting the girls to grow into 'strong, helpful women', so I don't think it can be said that the word has wholly negative connotations for her. And she refers to Mrs Learoyd and Ethel Thirlbeck as an 'old lady' and a 'young lady' respectively, so the lady/woman distinction isn't about social status - or not always, anyway.
Author:  Abi [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Could 'lady' refer to the speaker having respect for the person referred to - Mrs. Learoyd is obviously someone EBD approves of, despite being working class.

As regards 'girl' vs 'woman', I think there isn't a precise definition. It's probably partly age, partly marriage and partly the character or behaviour of the person concerned. Also, could it have something to do with experience? With 'girlish' characters having less experience of the world, or less wisdom, than 'womanly' ones.
Author:  jennifer [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:27 am ]
Post subject: 
It's interesting - I have no particular connotations attached to the use of 'lady' vs 'woman', negative or otherwise, but I dislike being called 'girl' in many circumstances.

I was thinking about the mental definition of adult. I tend to consider someone an adult if they have the legal rights and responsibilities of one - they can do all the 'adult' things, like drive, vote, drink, join the army, get married without permission, enter into a legally binding contract, own property, live and travel without a legal guardian, support themselves and live independently of their parents, decide their own affairs, hold a job, etc.

Then I realized that historically, women haven't legally been what I would consider adults! Voting, signing contracts, owning property, getting married without permission, signing a contract, living and travelling without a legal/social guardian, deciding their own affairs, living independently, holding a job, supporting themselves - these are things that women haven't traditionally been allowed, legally or socially, to do.
Author:  Kathy_S [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:35 am ]
Post subject: 
It's hard to know what connotations the words had for EBD. When I was growing up, to describe someone as a "woman" rather than a "lady" could be taken as an accusation that the person in question was uncultured or worse, so I've assumed that EBD would prefer the word, "lady," even though she came from a still earlier time and a different place. Likewise, if one's goal is to be a CS girl indefinitely, it seems unlikely that there'd be anything pejorative about the word "girl" in her universe.

I think I first became aware of the more feminist reading of woman/lady in the lyrics of Peggy Seeger:
"I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady
I'll fight them as an engineer." (Peggy Seeger)
It's true that, by the mid-70s, this idea had so much momentum that my university agreed to change the signs that had read "Ladies" to "Women," the argument being that "Ladies" was discriminatory as long as the other facilities said "Men" rather than "Gentlemen."

I'm still not convinced changing the word had much impact, and haven't worried too much about which word is used, as long as people are treated appropriately. The concept that someone can't do something or receive an appropriate rank or salary because she's a girl/lady/woman still sets me off! But, I still use "girls" -- and "boys" -- for persons well into middle age, and say "you guys" to groups of any gender combination. On the other hand, I do make a point of using a version of the Nicene creed that translates "homo factus est" as "became human" rather "became man," possibly because I think the Vatican still requires enlightenment on homo vs. vir.
Author:  Maeve [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think EBD had anything particular in mid with her various uses of girl, woman, and lady, except for what Mia said about how she seems to have thought that a certain girlish youthfulness probably made most of her characters, including the mistresses and married characters, more attractive to her reading audience.

She uses "the young woman" or "that young woman" over and over for pupils of almost any age from 11 up, whom she also describes as girls. In Problem, Len is referred to as "that young woman", but in the same book, Joey also calls her "my biggest, big girl." "Kiddish" and "babyish" are the terms used when someone is receiving a ticking off.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was taught that a "lady" was a woman with that title - the wife of a knight or baronet, or perhaps the daughter of a Peer of the Realm. Everybody else was a woman, end of.

And during the more strident years of the feminist movement, those who wanted to spell it "wimmin" thought that to refer to anybody as a "girl", even a child of six (who should, if you please, be called a "pre-womyn") was demeaning!
Author:  Fleury [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
And during the more strident years of the feminist movement, those who wanted to spell it "wimmin" thought that to refer to anybody as a "girl", even a child of six (who should, if you please, be called a "pre-womyn") was demeaning!


Good Lord, how ghastly!
Author:  Tor [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
I think I am with Tara and Jenifer on this - I hate being called a girl! But mostly what I hate about it is the fact that, as Linda (i think!) said, people equate the term 'girl' as being just a way of referring to a group of a women as 'gentlemne' or 'men', is used for... erm... men! In my more silly moments I might say to friends 'come along boys and girls', but it would be rare for me to refer to a group of adult strangers as a 'girls' or - indeed - 'boys'. I think that there are plenty of people (I've heard them) who, would, however use the term 'girls' for female, adult, professional acquaintances. If I got called a girl at work, I would probably have a fit - it *is* infantalising.


Of course, that's not to say people *mean* to make it so, but the common usage of 'girl' is far more insidious, in my opinion. As Jenifer noted, many of the 'adult' characteristics were denied to women until recently, and I suspect this has a lot to do with the persistent use of the term 'girl' for adult women. I often hear my friends refer to their husbands/male friends going out with 'the boys', and I sometimes hear men using the same terms, but less so. I always feel there is a sort of infantalisation there too - loving infantalisation, but there nonetheless. The flip-side being, of course, that I only ever hear men called 'boys' by acquaintances.

I have great sympathy with first wave feminists who really fought terms like this, as though it may sound OTT and silly, it really addresses areas that people don't think are influencing their behaviour.

Anyway.... off the soap box, and back on to the topic... I doubt any of this reflected EBDs choice of words, but that she generally reflected the interchangeable use of the girl/woman label then as now. With more emphasis on the girl when she *wanted* to make characters seem youthful. So without meaning it, she was in fact giving a pretty good example of how the term girl infantilises it subjects! No wonder the 70's feminists hated it!
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