The CBB :: View topic - Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?

That's a good point, and one that EBD never really considers. She always has everyone behave as though the CS's trilingualism can only be a good thing, whatever kind of future career you are headed to, but of course, you're right - there's every reason to think that being educated two thirds of the time in languages in which you aren't proficient (and which you may not, in fact, speak at all, prior to arriving at the CS at 14 or so) will hold you back educationally.

So many of us wanted to go to the Chalet School, but it has occurred to me that it probably wouldn't have survived long enough for me to attend in the 1990s! Even the most traditional schools, such as Eton, let their pupils have access to the sorts of things frowned upon at the CS (pop music, jeans etc.).

I'd be really interested in what everyone has to say

Ah yes, but if it had survived to the 1990s it would probably also have allowed all the things that were forbidden in earlier days.

When I revisited my boarding school some time in the 90s I was amazed (and secretly rather horrified) at what I saw - pop posters on the dormitory walls for example when in the 1950s we were not even allowed photos of brothers older than ten......

cestina wrote:

But to what extent? In the formal discussions area at the moment people are comparing the relative conservatism of the CS in labelling books as 'adult', compared to other schools. Part of me thinks, as you suggest, they would modernise but on the other hand I look at Madge, Joey and co., who still have a great hand in the way the school is run and wonder if they would protest at those types of modernisation - to the expense of the school. Although they would be a lot older by the 1990s, I can't see them willingly giving up an interest in school affairs.

But I'm not at all convinced that they were ever prepared at all for independent life in the real world. They might be competent in langaues, but not able to relate to people not brought up in the CS ethos. Would they be able to understand other pov s, or would they only be able to relate if others changed their world view to come into line with the CS world view?

I think you've hit the nail on the head - I was talking about this with SLOC and my parents over the weekend (who regard my interest in EBD with some amusement

). Especially with regards to mentions of other nations; although they have girls from Kenya and so on, these are invariably white, Christian girls of a certain background and outlook. Given that by the late 1950s that imperial way of life was disappearing and there was increased movement between nations, would the girls from the CS be able to get on well with others from different cultures? Even my mother, born in 1954, admits that she found it immensely difficult to shed the contemporary prejudices her parents gave her (my grandmother would have been slightly younger than Madge).

Does the fact that the triplets are pretty much the only ones of their age who are fluent in all 3 languages maybe explain how they ended up so far ahead of the rest of their age group?

Given that by the late 1950s that imperial way of life was disappearing and there was increased movement between nations, would the girls from the CS be able to get on well with others from different cultures?

I suppose I would see the real problems facing CS girls after school as being less scholastic than social.

CS graduates might have some adjustment problems fitting in socially if they focused solely on night life and the dating scene rather than looking for companionship via local churches and community organizations, or getting involved in sports, folk dance, guides etc. ...

To some extent I think most girls brought up at that period would have encountered many of the same difficulties and the majority of the CS girls would have done what the rest of us did - muddle through! I did A levels in 1961, at an all girls' school, and lived in an all female home. I was shy and awkward around boys and men because I rarely met any, and there were no non-white girls at my school. A handful of Roman Catholics plus a couple of Jewish girls, that was all.
It was quite difficult finding my way into an adult world that was changing out of all recognition at that time, but by dint of watching other people and trying to fit in, I managed all right, though this was more from insecurity and anxiety than from a Mary-Lou kind of position.

RoseCloke, I wasn't clear enough - I meant that I see the problems facing CS girls after school as being not academic problems, but social ones.

I like to think that Mary-Lou, once she got to uni and didn't have everyone expecting her to look after every new girl with problems settling in, might've calmed down and stopped being quite so bossy/jolly hockey sticks. I always feel sorry for her when she's expected to look after Naomi, even though they're not even in the same form and it's acknowledged that she (Mary-Lou) has a lot on her plate already.

I lived in the backwaters of Devon pretty much my whole life (even Exeter, where I started off, is something of a backwater really!) and coming to Bristol was the first time that I'd seen large communities of people who were non-white, non-British, etc. That doesn't really bother me, though. What did surprise me is that there is a homosexual couple living in the block. I've no problem with it at all, I hasten to add - what surprised me was that it made me realise that was the first time I'd ever seen two people of the same sex kiss! (barring TV etc) I hadn't thought of myself as sheltered in that way until that moment :lol:

I think part of the problem is that we see a 'real Chalet School girl' as a Mary-Lou, or Len, etc. but within that label, just off-stage, these crowds of real CS girls had their own wide range of personalities, they didn't all become clones.

There's Jane Carew in the later books, who retains her own individual personality even after her own book, but apart from her they do all get rather similar and fit the mould rather too easily. For me Adrienne always stands out, but I suspect that might be because it was one of the first CS books I read rather than because of any outstanding characteristics that she retains!

Jane stands out for me too. She's one of my favourite characters. I also think Adrienne stands out quite a bit as she's a character who isn't used to school and is completely different to the average school girl. I think that book, Ailie, Judy and Janice all shine as they show how easily they accept a new girl so different from themselves and include her in everything. Much better than what Joey was ever like with Eustacia

I think Mary-Lou would have been fine at uni or at work - clever, confident, essentially kind, and she showed she was able to take criticism and teasing in good spirit. I'd say she'd have shaken down pretty fast, and probably have been head of several societies before you could say 'our one and only Mary-Lou'. She'd have annoyed the hell out of a lot of people, but they'd be unlikely to stop her on her path to glory! :lol:

Ruey Richardson, in her first term, is an example of the type of more 'normal' school girl Emily referred to as probably occurring off-stage.

Author:	RoseCloke [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
The title doesn't encompass exactly what I mean, but it's as close as I could get I've had a look at the archives and can't see anything precisely on this topic, so I hope it's okay to start a new thread, here goes... There's been discussion on other threads about the role languages play in the CS and whether this would hinder the girls' academic progression. Cosimo's Jackal sums it up perfectly: Cosimo's Jackal wrote: That's a good point, and one that EBD never really considers. She always has everyone behave as though the CS's trilingualism can only be a good thing, whatever kind of future career you are headed to, but of course, you're right - there's every reason to think that being educated two thirds of the time in languages in which you aren't proficient (and which you may not, in fact, speak at all, prior to arriving at the CS at 14 or so) will hold you back educationally. There's also been a lot of talk in the last few months (and before!) about the arbitrary nature of exams and how CS girls could have realistically entered university, as well as a brief (ongoing) discussion about how the Maynard triplets could/would have coped with the real world. So I have two broad questions; would the educational and moral programme at the Chalet School be a help or a hindrance to getting work? We've discussed university entrance, but what about general university living, or those girls who go straight into jobs? Does the reliance on doctors/male figures mean that those who end up living by themselves will be unable to cope financially or will have advantage taken of them? I'm thinking in particular of the later stages of the CS, when EBD's ideas are a little more old-fashioned and no one seems to keep up with the times. Here, people have been putting in a robust defence of Joan Baker, arguing that her 'worldliness' would be an asset in the outside world. How about Daisy giving up work to become a mother (again, much discussed) - is this a reflection of society in general, or would CS girls be more willing to sacrifice their careers in place of (mostly male) others doing the same, possibly to their or (in the case of an award-winning doctor) society's detriment? Leading on from this, if the CS were a real school would it fail and close soon after the end of the series? Would you send your daughters to such an isolated school which doesn't seem to set much store in the qualifications required for modern life? Does anyone think the Chalet School would be willing to adapt - I'm not entirely sure of Miss Annersley's age, but after so long at the CS, would she be nearing retirement/needing glasses? - possibly under a new headmistress? (Sacrilege, I know ) So many of us wanted to go to the Chalet School, but it has occurred to me that it probably wouldn't have survived long enough for me to attend in the 1990s! Even the most traditional schools, such as Eton, let their pupils have access to the sorts of things frowned upon at the CS (pop music, jeans etc.). I'd be really interested in what everyone has to say

Author:	cestina [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
RoseCloke wrote: So many of us wanted to go to the Chalet School, but it has occurred to me that it probably wouldn't have survived long enough for me to attend in the 1990s! Even the most traditional schools, such as Eton, let their pupils have access to the sorts of things frowned upon at the CS (pop music, jeans etc.). I'd be really interested in what everyone has to say Ah yes, but if it had survived to the 1990s it would probably also have allowed all the things that were forbidden in earlier days. When I revisited my boarding school some time in the 90s I was amazed (and secretly rather horrified) at what I saw - pop posters on the dormitory walls for example when in the 1950s we were not even allowed photos of brothers older than ten......

Author:	RoseCloke [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
cestina wrote: Ah yes, but if it had survived to the 1990s it would probably also have allowed all the things that were forbidden in earlier days. When I revisited my boarding school some time in the 90s I was amazed (and secretly rather horrified) at what I saw - pop posters on the dormitory walls for example when in the 1950s we were not even allowed photos of brothers older than ten...... But to what extent? In the formal discussions area at the moment people are comparing the relative conservatism of the CS in labelling books as 'adult', compared to other schools. Part of me thinks, as you suggest, they would modernise but on the other hand I look at Madge, Joey and co., who still have a great hand in the way the school is run and wonder if they would protest at those types of modernisation - to the expense of the school. Although they would be a lot older by the 1990s, I can't see them willingly giving up an interest in school affairs.

Author:	cestina [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
RoseCloke wrote: cestina wrote: Ah yes, but if it had survived to the 1990s it would probably also have allowed all the things that were forbidden in earlier days. When I revisited my boarding school some time in the 90s I was amazed (and secretly rather horrified) at what I saw - pop posters on the dormitory walls for example when in the 1950s we were not even allowed photos of brothers older than ten...... But to what extent? In the formal discussions area at the moment people are comparing the relative conservatism of the CS in labelling books as 'adult', compared to other schools. Part of me thinks, as you suggest, they would modernise but on the other hand I look at Madge, Joey and co., who still have a great hand in the way the school is run and wonder if they would protest at those types of modernisation - to the expense of the school. Although they would be a lot older by the 1990s, I can't see them willingly giving up an interest in school affairs. Well it was in no way conservative compared to the real-life school I went to from 1953-59. We were only allowed to bring 3 reading books from home, they were "passed" by the house-mistress on arrival, and those books that have been mentioned on the other thread would certainly have been banned on the spot. And far more innocuous ones as well..... ETA I think both Joey and Madge would have been forced to move with the times - after all they had children who were going off to university and learning new ways, and then marrying and having children of their own who in turn will grow up in a completely different environment. All influences that percolate through the family (if things can percolate upwards )

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
What an interesting question ... you've encompassed a lot in your initial post, RoseCloak. I was thinking about the languages - I suppose that (if the system had worked, and we're told that it does, although the reality would probably be very different, with girls missing out on basic education because they had failed to grasp concepts explained in an unfamiliar language) if the girls really did become trilingually (sp?) competent or even more, if the Norwegen and so on girls had their own languages as well, they might have been fitted for work in the European Union. But I'm not at all convinced that they were ever prepared at all for independent life in the real world. They might be competent in languages, but not able to relate to people not brought up in the CS ethos. Would they be able to understand other pov s, or would they only be able to relate if others changed their world view to come into line with the CS world view?

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Author:	RoseCloke [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
julieanne1811 wrote: But I'm not at all convinced that they were ever prepared at all for independent life in the real world. They might be competent in langaues, but not able to relate to people not brought up in the CS ethos. Would they be able to understand other pov s, or would they only be able to relate if others changed their world view to come into line with the CS world view? I think you've hit the nail on the head - I was talking about this with SLOC and my parents over the weekend (who regard my interest in EBD with some amusement ). Especially with regards to mentions of other nations; although they have girls from Kenya and so on, these are invariably white, Christian girls of a certain background and outlook. Given that by the late 1950s that imperial way of life was disappearing and there was increased movement between nations, would the girls from the CS be able to get on well with others from different cultures? Even my mother, born in 1954, admits that she found it immensely difficult to shed the contemporary prejudices her parents gave her (my grandmother would have been slightly younger than Madge).

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
RoseCloke wrote: I think you've hit the nail on the head - I was talking about this with SLOC and my parents over the weekend (who regard my interest in EBD with some amusement ). Especially with regards to mentions of other nations; although they have girls from Kenya and so on, these are invariably white, Christian girls of a certain background and outlook. Given that by the late 1950s that imperial way of life was disappearing and there was increased movement between nations, would the girls from the CS be able to get on well with others from different cultures? Even my mother, born in 1954, admits that she found it immensely difficult to shed the contemporary prejudices her parents gave her (my grandmother would have been slightly younger than Madge). Lilamani is the only one I can think of - she's Kashmiri, but it's strongly implied that she's a Christian - and she disappears after Lavender Laughs, the only book in which we see her. And really we only see the effect of her arrival on Lavender, not on Lilamani herself. I was thinking earlier about the glimpses of the intense coaching and additional lessons Len has in (IIRC) Triplets, which suggests that for the naturally trilingual - as probably only the triplets were in their age group - things would have been much easier. For those of their classmates who hadn't been immersed in the culture of the school since birth, I would imagine that doing lessons in two relatively unfamiliar languages and with non-native speakers of those languages, would have been a big hurdle to achieving their true academic potential. After all, if you wanted to study, say, Geography, at an English university, how much advantage would it have been to have fluent German and French? (I can see it would have been useful if you wanted to study History or languages) Or would more academic journals in those days have been published in languages other than English?

Author:	CBW [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Does the fact that the triplets are pretty much the only ones of their age who are fluent in all 3 languages maybe explain how they ended up so far ahead of the rest of their age group?

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
CBW wrote: Does the fact that the triplets are pretty much the only ones of their age who are fluent in all 3 languages maybe explain how they ended up so far ahead of the rest of their age group? Good point! I hadn't thought of that before and it certainly would account for their apparent academic prowess ...

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
RoseCloke wrote: Given that by the late 1950s that imperial way of life was disappearing and there was increased movement between nations, would the girls from the CS be able to get on well with others from different cultures? That's a really interesting point. The CS, which started out as an 'English' school, but with a very multinational, multi-faith intake and a huge enthusiasm for other languages, cultures and folk traditions, particularly those local to the Tiernsee, seems to end up by losing much of its early radicalism, and becoming essentially culturally imperialist. Not in the sense of expounding 'British values' to foreigners, but in terms of being convinced it has nothing to learn from others, and that its duty is to draw others into its superior way of seeing things. It does sound rather belatedly like some of the less attractive and most blinkered aspects of Empire! I was saying this on the other thread about the CS worldview, but I would anticipate that the 'best' CS girls at the end of the series - Mary-Lou, Len - would have the most difficulty in adjusting to a world of grey areas and compromises and that requires kinds of flexibility never taught at the CS, because they're honed to being the best exponents of CS ways. Maybe it would be worse for Len, because she gets the same values at home, also, and the same absolute certainty of being right. More than any other person, she has the CS/'Spirit of the School' installed as her personal conscience. I suppose I would see the real problems facing CS girls after school as being less scholastic than social. I harp on about Joan Baker, but I think she'd be way ahead of Len there - just because she's had to learn, slowly and painfully, that the ways she grew up with are not the only ways, and that different people have different values, habits etc. In that alone, she's lived with relativism in a way that Len never has. And the fact that Joan is the school failure and Len one of its biggest successes says a lot...

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
In the 1950s, Britain and most European countries weren't anything like as multicultural as they are now, so even if they'd gone to ordinary day schools in their home towns it's likely that many of the girls wouldn't have met people from different ethnic/religious backgrounds. I grew up in a big city and went to schools where there was a complete mixture of ethnic and religious backgrounds (we never got real meat at primary school because they were so worried about breaking anyone's dietary laws), but my housemate at uni came from a small village and until she got to uni had hardly met anyone who wasn't white and Christian, and this was in the 1990s. I think the problems that CS girls would have faced was partly that they all seemed to accept that the CS's way was the only possible way of doing anything - I can imagine some of them being unable to cope with the fact that uni halls of residence didn't have bath rotas! - and partly that, at least in Switzerland, they'd been so isolated from the rest of the world. We don't know what they did in the holidays, but at school they were out of touch with popular culture and they had very little to do with girls of different backgrounds or boys of any background. When Hilda retired, I'm pretty sure that the CS would have gone for the "boot room" approach of promoting an existing staff member rather than appointing an outsider. EBD hinted strongly in Challenge that it'd be Nancy Wilmot. Nancy seemed like a pretty feisty lady who wouldn't be constrained by the idea that things always had to be done in the way that the CS'd always done them, but she'd've been answerable to Madge and she'd've had Joey interfering, and as an Old Girl and long-serving CS mistress herself she might've been happy with the status quo. I can imagine her being someone with her own ideas, though.

Author:	RoseCloke [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: I suppose I would see the real problems facing CS girls after school as being less scholastic than social. Wouldn't that hinder the majority of girls? Not everyone can become an academic, author or enter a convent, where the CS way of life wouldn't matter quite so much. Simple things, such as assuming the same moral code and level of (Christian) faith in others could trip them up quite easily, especially if we consider the reaction to Naomi's atheism. It's the aspect of teaching the girls that the CS way is the best possible way that is equally troubling - other schools have their positive and negative points but they don't seem to succeed with the wholesale conversion the way the CS does. For example, people could bond over horror stories about morning marches before breakfast or cold baths, but a CS girl wouldn't necessarily see that as a bad thing, or anything to think about critically. In starting this thread I had JayB's excellent A Grey Walled Paradise in mind. I had never considered that CS girls would be anything other than highly employable but, having read it, the opposite seemed far more plausible. In the outside world a CS girl would be in a minority, especially considering that many old girls married and effectively dropped out of public life; how easy would networking be? Maybe Daisy and the other girls were glad to 'retire' and raise children due to hostile reactions to their ideas? Could this explain why so many old girls become mistresses? Is there anything further written about the English branch? I haven't read many of the later books. Possibly that would have been a better bet; less remote and with more opportunities to be exposed to other thoughts. When you think about it, the remoteness of the Platz is rather terrifying - although reassuring for parents who don't want their daughters influenced by anything! Edit: Sorry, didn't see Alison's remarks before I posted

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
It'd be interesting to know what they did in the holidays. Did they have friends who lived near their homes? Did they listen to popular music? The series ended (going off the triplets' date of birth) in 1958, so well before Radio Caroline or other stations concentrating on rock/pop music were going, but did they listen to popular music records or did they share Madge and Mr Denny's views about sticking to folk and classical music? Did they go to dances? Did they go to the cinema? Were they allowed to go to places like tennis clubs or even just out on shopping trips without being supervised? Did they watch TV? What sorts of magazines, if any, did they read? Were they allowed to wear something a bit more moden than velveteen dresses? We don't really see anyone other than the MBR clan in the holidays, and even with them we see them away on holiday rather than at home during the holidays. Although, IIRC, Ailie says something in Adrienne about how it'd be fun to go to dances but she'd never be allowed.

Author:	Kathy_S [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
CS graduates might have some adjustment problems fitting in socially if they focused solely on night life and the dating scene rather than looking for companionship via local churches and community organizations, or getting involved in sports, folk dance, guides etc. However, I should think they'd be excellent employees in many ways. I'd be thrilled to find a supply of honest, literate workers, particularly if they had the abilities to concentrate on work when necessary, reason from cause to effect, accept responsibility, and follow protocols when available. (Yes, the order and quantities of reagents matter!) I also suspect that the ethos of the school would prevent Miss Wilson, for example, from writing glowing references for those who were actually disinterested or inclined to blow up the lab.

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Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Kathy_S wrote: CS graduates might have some adjustment problems fitting in socially if they focused solely on night life and the dating scene rather than looking for companionship via local churches and community organizations, or getting involved in sports, folk dance, guides etc. ... I wasn't actually thinking of night life or 'dating' at all, I just mean being capable of functioning socially outside of arenas specifically chosen to be primarily or totally composed of people who can be assumed to be like-minded - and in those arenas I would include churches, folk dance organisations or Guides. Sports might be a bit more generally inclusive, though - come to think of it - probably not in relation to hockey, lacrosse and tennis, at least during the period of the CS in the UK. After spending my entire education at a convent, I had initial difficulties relation to men socially at university, because I hardly knew any. I also anticipated them being considerably cleverer than I was - because the 'good schools' in my town were all single-sex male schools - and was quite taken aback when they turned out not to be. I can only imagine CS girls as potentially having that, post-CS, plus being continuallly confronted with other subcategories of people they've never before met. Atheists and agnostics, proseletysing members of non-Christian faiths who were actively hostile to Christianity, working-class people with no interest in becoming middle-class, Beatniks or others who break the 'dainty' CS dress code, divorced people, people who never hump their mattresses daily etc etc! Obviously, everyone leaving school/home is moving out in a world full of novelty, it just strikes me that the CS, while it inculcates lots of good habits and virtues, specifically makes its girls particularly ill-equipped to handle difference without seeing it as wrong. Which seems a pity, given the early CS's unusual openness to foreigners and foreign influences. RoseCloke, I wasn't clear enough - I meant that I see the problems facing CS girls after school as being not academic problems, but social ones.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
To some extent I think most girls brought up at that period would have encountered many of the same difficulties and the majority of the CS girls would have done what the rest of us did - muddle through! I did A levels in 1961, at an all girls' school, and lived in an all female home. I was shy and awkward around boys and men because I rarely met any, and there were no non-white girls at my school. A handful of Roman Catholics plus a couple of Jewish girls, that was all. It was quite difficult finding my way into an adult world that was changing out of all recognition at that time, but by dint of watching other people and trying to fit in, I managed all right, though this was more from insecurity and anxiety than from a Mary-Lou kind of position. I think Len would have found it all difficult but would be flexible enough to adapt very quickly. ML on the other hand, would have taken a lot longer and might never really have altered her opinions, or only superficially after realising other people didn't share her views. I suspect her self-confidence would have brought success anyway; the few public school girls I met at the time tended to be rather Mary-Lou in type and outlook and they bounced confidently through most things. As a child I used to long to go to the CS, and part of that was because I knew that kind Mrs Maynard would have been on hand if I'd been homesick, and because of the ethos of helping new girls, besides the emphasis on languages. (I'd have been the shy scholarship girl from a council school but a Ros Lilley, not a Joan!)

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
sealpuppy wrote: To some extent I think most girls brought up at that period would have encountered many of the same difficulties and the majority of the CS girls would have done what the rest of us did - muddle through! I did A levels in 1961, at an all girls' school, and lived in an all female home. I was shy and awkward around boys and men because I rarely met any, and there were no non-white girls at my school. A handful of Roman Catholics plus a couple of Jewish girls, that was all. It was quite difficult finding my way into an adult world that was changing out of all recognition at that time, but by dint of watching other people and trying to fit in, I managed all right, though this was more from insecurity and anxiety than from a Mary-Lou kind of position. I appreciate that one simply didn't encounter that much diversity at school at the time, but surely what you call your own insecurity and anxiety must have helped in a way? I mean, in that you weren't 100% convinced that your way was the only possible way, so you were open to new ideas and people...? I would have said that such an attitude would be a lot more conducive to adjusting to post-school life than a Mary-Lou kind of position. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled to find Mary-Lou taking command to get a bunch of people out of a burning building or something - she's be exactly the kind of leader-type you'd need - but I could easily imagine her 'clarion' tones and absolute certainty about everything being quite off-putting to people who didn't happen to share her views. I could imagine other university students, for instance, thinking of her as that 'ghastly, bossy, interfering jolly-hockey-sticks type'. Which isn't fair to Mary-Lou - though I'm no fan of hers - but I could see her coming across like that at first glance to strangers.

Author:	RoseCloke [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: RoseCloke, I wasn't clear enough - I meant that I see the problems facing CS girls after school as being not academic problems, but social ones. No - that's me being not clear enough in return I meant that the careers I've read about that we're shown first-hand (Stacie as an academic, Joey as authoress, Robin as a nun) require CS social attributes or aren't hindered by them in the way an ordinary schoolgirl leaving the CS might be.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
I was going to say that it's quite depressing that the patterns of people's lives were set out for them early on, and that most of the girls probably would've ended up living lives which revolved around church fetes etc. Not that there's anything wrong with church fetes, it's just the idea that the pattern of your life's set by their birth and upbringing. That's not a criticism of CS-land: it's the same for most people. However, thinking about it, a lot of people did do "different" things with their lives. Several girls, and a bizarrely high percentage of mistresses from the early days, emigrated to other Commonwealth countries, and there's the odd person - Tom Gay, for example - who ended up in job which weren't typically CS-ish. I agree that the way they seem to think that the CS's way is the only way is quite frightening, though. I find in very shocking (and not very realistic, because I just can't imagine an intelligent girl of 18 behaving like that) in Trials when Mary-Lou is totally unable to cope with the idea that not every single person on the entire planet is a practising Protestant or Catholic. Mary-Lou is not someone I can imagine being easily thrown, but she just can't deal with it. Several people, led by Jo Scott who's generally very calm and sensible, fly off the handle when Yseult says that she doesn't like Joey's books, and Mary-Lou finds it necessary to go off and speak to the Maynards about a new girl (Joan) who doesn't fit in with the CS ways. & poor Pam Slater's treated as if she's committed high treason because she leaves to take a job at another school. It's natural to some extent to think that the way you're used to doing things is "right", but a lot of CS people can't seem to cope with the idea that there's more than one way of life. Even Joey's constant (and IMHO not very polite) harping on about how wonderful it is to have a big family fits in with that: it just doesn't seem to occur to her that what is right for her may not be right for somebody else. I like to think that Mary-Lou, once she got to uni and didn't have everyone expecting her to look after every new girl with problems settling in, might've calmed down and stopped being quite so bossy/jolly hockey sticks. I always feel sorry for her when she's expected to look after Naomi, even though they're not even in the same form and it's acknowledged that she (Mary-Lou) has a lot on her plate already.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Alison H wrote: I like to think that Mary-Lou, once she got to uni and didn't have everyone expecting her to look after every new girl with problems settling in, might've calmed down and stopped being quite so bossy/jolly hockey sticks. I always feel sorry for her when she's expected to look after Naomi, even though they're not even in the same form and it's acknowledged that she (Mary-Lou) has a lot on her plate already. I always imagine Mary Lou (and Len) refusing to be responsible for anyone and going off and doing their own thing for a change. They wouldn't have parents, brevet aunts or mistresses around telling them that its their duty to do it. Or I would love to hear of Joan bumping into Mary Lou and helping her to fit into the outside world, pretty much the same way Mary Lou helped Joan fit into the Chalet School world.

Author:	sealpuppy [ Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
The trouble is that in the very late books, EBD is so hung up on Joey's perfections that she skews everything to fit that circumstance. If you look at what the girls are - in essence - taught, I think it boils down to a philosophy in which you are kind and helpful to those less fortunate; years of boarding school presumably means you can pretty much accommodate most people's foibles for the sake of peace and quiet; and you (generally) apply yourself to the work in hand. These are useful tools for future life and values that are shared by many people. As far as the religious aspects go, I assume that if you have a deep faith (which I don't and didn't at 18 either) you are secure enough in it to come up against other opinions and agree to differ. (I think ML's surprise is just EBD getting her knickers in an elderly twist! not representative of teenagers of the time. I'm the same age as Stephen Maynard and I don't believe any teenager would have felt like that since before the first world war!) Teenagers tend to be able to absorb lots of new ideas so I doubt if most of the CS girls would have any trouble. They might rub up against the occasional person but they'd soon enough shake down with new friends of all persuasions. My closest friend at college was an East African asian girl. She had not had any white girls at her school, and I had no asian girls at mine, so you could argue that the culture clash was similar to a CS girl going into the outside world, but it didn't make any difference to our friendship.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
I lived in the backwaters of Devon pretty much my whole life (even Exeter, where I started off, is something of a backwater really!) and coming to Bristol was the first time that I'd seen large communities of people who were non-white, non-British, etc. That doesn't really bother me, though. What did surprise me is that there is a homosexual couple living in the block. I've no problem with it at all, I hasten to add - what surprised me was that it made me realise that was the first time I'd ever seen two people of the same sex kiss! (barring TV etc) I hadn't thought of myself as sheltered in that way until that moment Just trying to imagine OOAO/Len's reaction to that is mind boggling. For me it isn't even an issue, it just kind of happened, and made me draw up and think about things, but I can imagine Len, especially, quoting Joey verbatim about things like that (I'm guessing in the time she would have been at university that wouldn't have been likely to happen, but other things mentioned here, such as pop music, must have been so foreign to her!) I can actually imagine a rather sweet instance where Len, after university, moves in with Steve or one of the other MBR men (presumably if they were family that would be seen as acceptable, and might be encouraged so that they could 'look after her virtue'?) and they have to try and help her adjust - they certainly seem far more ready for RL thanks to their time away. At the same time, just being at the CS wouldn't necessarily be debilitating in and of itself - as sealpuppy says, you must have to learn to accommodate other people and embrace community living, and I think that the general skills would be quite strong in most CS girls. It's just the specifics, such as accepting that not everyone will be able to listen to classical music and not much else, that would need some adjustment!

Author:	Llywela [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I lived in the backwaters of Devon pretty much my whole life (even Exeter, where I started off, is something of a backwater really!) and coming to Bristol was the first time that I'd seen large communities of people who were non-white, non-British, etc. That doesn't really bother me, though. What did surprise me is that there is a homosexual couple living in the block. I've no problem with it at all, I hasten to add - what surprised me was that it made me realise that was the first time I'd ever seen two people of the same sex kiss! (barring TV etc) I hadn't thought of myself as sheltered in that way until that moment I think it is a very general human tendency that we all tend to take situations we've always known very much for granted - my experience was pretty much the opposite of yours. I went to a very rough inner city comprehensive with one of the largest ethnic mixes of any school in the country. I remember in my A'level history class there were only about 7 students, and one day to illustrate some point or other (about migration, I think) the teacher invited us to look around the room and take note of the fact that of those 7 students, only 2 were white. None of us had actually noticed that fact before, because we didn't see each other that way. But it was, as I said, a very rough school, of the kind that tends towards actual riots on a bad day (we learned very early on to spot the signs of trouble building up, and on those days you either legged it as fast as you could to get out of the way before the fight started, or you hung around inside until it was all over; then there would be police on the gates for days afterward), so for me the big shock of going to university was how civilised everyone was. I would imagine that for very sheltered girls like the triplets and other CS students, life out in the real world probably would have come as a big shock, but they wouldn't be alone in that. The real test of character would be how well they managed to adapt.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
It'd be interesting to know how people like Nancy Wilmot, Elsie Carr and Anne Seymour, who served in the women's forces during the War, adapted. In some ways they'd've had an advantage over people who hadn't gone to boarding schools because they'd've been used to having their time managed for them, but at university you can, to some extent, choose whom you spend your time with, whereas in the Wrens or the ATS or the WAAFs they'd've been mixing with people from different backgrounds all the time.

Author:	Mel [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Those who went to Oxford (ie anyone who wanted to go) wouldn't have found the real world such a shock though would they? It would have been very sheltered and regulated in the 1950s/60s. They would have a job wondering what to do in their free time and wondering when to go to bed, but would be mixing with girls from similar background who had gone to similar schools, or any working class girls who had gone to Oxford would be more likely to be Ros Lilley than Joan Baker.

Author:	Pat [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
There wasn't the bar culture when I was at what was then Newcastle Polytechnic (1969-1970). Besides which, we actually spent a lot of free time studying! I was able to save for a holiday out of my student grant, and I smoked at that time! I went to boarding school in 1959, and got a transistor radio shortly afterwards. We used to list to Radio Luxembourg after lights out, and that was all pop music and English DJs. I suspect that the same thing would have happened at the CS, just that EBD wouldn't have known about that station, and may not have appreciated how small trannies were even in those days! Any girl could have brought one back in her overnight bag!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
I think the only real problem, for me, with the CS collectivity in terms of preparation for dealing with difference in the future, is that while all forms of collective living generally prepare you for compromising and getting along with other people, EBD is unusually invested in the new girl letting go of large amounts of her individuality (which is usually seen as her 'problem') to be absorbed into the CS collective. (Which I know sounds a bit like being assimilated to the Borg! ) Which means that there isn't that much difference to interact with at the CS, despite the large numbers of girls from different countries. In theory 'getting your corners rubbed off' happens in all boarding school stories - often much more cruelly than at the CS - but because EBD is more invested in presenting the CS as a perfect environment, she shows it as being unusually successful in turning its pupils into 'real CS girls' and becoming one of the crowd. Whereas somewhere like Malory Towers or St Clare's, despite also being seen as ideal, still has girls like hard, clever Alicia, musical and art geniuses who never really get with the real world to the extent Nina does, 'dishonourable' Claudine, silly, vain Alison, 'untamed' circus girl Carlotta, weak, deceitful, friendless Gwen - as well as the O'Sullivan twins and Sally and Darrell. The CS seems to have a high proportion of Sally/Darrell/the O'Sullivan twin types to the general school population! Pat, I love the idea of the CS girls listening to Radio Luxembourg at night in their dormitories! Maybe all those ghost stories after lights out were just a cover. And maybe the sleepwalkers were really faking, after they got caught out of bed on their way back from hiding the radio in someone's hatbox!

Author:	Emily [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
This is fascinating reading. I think part of the problem is that we see a 'real Chalet School girl' as a Mary-Lou, or Len, etc. but within that label, just off-stage, these crowds of real CS girls had their own wide range of personalities, they didn't all become clones. And as regards the CS way of doing things, I think a large proportion of them would have just put up with the cold baths and rotas and funny names for things because that was just the way it was, rather than actually being converted and thinking that one must always have a cold bath every day for the rest of one's life...I bet they all had long hot bubble baths at home. I know I'm picking on the bath thing to illustrate this point but I think it applies to the rest of it as well, and lots of them might have been relieved to go to university, or a job, and find that the rest of the world has different ideas, and they're allowed to as well. PS. I 'opened my eyes' at Pat's comment about how small trannies were even in those days, an example of changes in language

Author:	Nightwing [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
This topic always interests me! Something to consider is that, while the CS girls would have been rubbing shoulders with new people in their classes, they may very well have still stuck around with school friends outside of class. That's certainly my experience of university! I moved down the other end of the country for a fresh start, but all the new friends I made were all from the same town, and knew each other from school or church or through friends of friends. As far as I know they're still all spending time together; and now that I'm back in my own city I've drifted back into my old friendships, too. I can definitely see CS girls sticking with what was familiar in terms of friendship, at least at first when university was a new concept to them. When they were settled in at uni, they'd start making new friends, and could then start to consider different viewpoints and ideals. Adapting to a new lifestyle doesn't have to be a short sharp shock!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Emily wrote: I think part of the problem is that we see a 'real Chalet School girl' as a Mary-Lou, or Len, etc. but within that label, just off-stage, these crowds of real CS girls had their own wide range of personalities, they didn't all become clones. But if EBD doesn't write about them, then they don't 'exist' for the reader, do they? Like the way she tends to 'invent' a bunch of silly, weak, easily-led types to cluster around someone like Joyce Linton - but we never really hear about these 'not-quite-in-the-mould CS girls' otherwise. I was trying to think which characters, outside of the longterm problem girls, do retain some element of individuality, and while there are more in the Tyrol days (or that's my impression?), they seem to thin out as the series continues. I'm counting the 'individuality' of people like Verity, Odette Mercier, Joan Baker, Yseult Pertwee etc as 'problem', because that seems to be the way it is generally regarded by the CS. Honestly, if you had to give character descriptions of 'individual' CS girls without giving their names or describing their physical appearance, how many would be immediately recognisable? Outside of the triplets and Mary-Lou, I'd list Nina Rutherford, Tom Gay, Jack Lambert - I know there are others, but I can't think of all that many. Looks aside, would be it be possible to distinguish Barbara Chester from Vi Lucy or Jo Scott, or any other nice, eager, happy, reasonably hard-working Gang member? It makes me realise why EBD is so insistent on describing girls' looks, because it seems to me that the mass of CS girls doesn't contain too many distinct personalities!

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
It's interesting that Jack Lambert, who looked set to become the next "heroine" after Len, wasn't a proper CS girl. I think EBD was trying to turn her into one by going on about how she seemed very responsible when she criticised the idea of getting motor boats, but it doesn't work for me. I don't like her at all, but she's a complete contrast to Mary-Lou who is supposed to epitomise all the CS virtues and Len who follows every letter of the CS law. She isn't even particularly enmeshed in the CS world: I know that she's Gay Lambert's niece but that's never much of an issue, and I know that she spends a lot of time with Len but I don't think we ever even see her with Joey. People's personalities are definitelty clearer in the early days. It would be easy enough to recognise e.g. Gisela, Frieda or Evadne from a description of their personality, but people like Hilary, the two Lesleys and Doris just seem to be there to make up the numbers in the Gang and I struggle even to remember the names of "The Crew" and some of the other groups in the later books.

Author:	Abi [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
There's Jane Carew in the later books, who retains her own individual personality even after her own book, but apart from her they do all get rather similar and fit the mould rather too easily. For me Adrienne always stands out, but I suspect that might be because it was one of the first CS books I read rather than because of any outstanding characteristics that she retains!

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Abi wrote: There's Jane Carew in the later books, who retains her own individual personality even after her own book, but apart from her they do all get rather similar and fit the mould rather too easily. For me Adrienne always stands out, but I suspect that might be because it was one of the first CS books I read rather than because of any outstanding characteristics that she retains! Jane stands out for me too. She's one of my favourite characters. I also think Adrienne stands out quite a bit as she's a character who isn't used to school and is completely different to the average school girl. I think that book, Ailie, Judy and Janice all shine as they show how easily they accept a new girl so different from themselves and include her in everything. Much better than what Joey was ever like with Eustacia

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does the Chalet School prepare you for future success?
Fiona Mc wrote: Jane stands out for me too. She's one of my favourite characters. I also think Adrienne stands out quite a bit as she's a character who isn't used to school and is completely different to the average school girl. I think that book, Ailie, Judy and Janice all shine as they show how easily they accept a new girl so different from themselves and include her in everything. Much better than what Joey was ever like with Eustacia I forgot Jane, who is definitely individual. But - while Ailie, Judy and co are lovely and welcoming - I'm not sure I could distinguish them from one another, without a physical description, or from other nice, friendly CS girls! And I'd say the same for another group I very much like - Tom Gay, Bride, Primrose, Julie Lucy, Loveday, Nancy and co. They are a lovely bunch collectively - kind, sensible, fun, fair - but apart from 'Gentleman' Tom, I'm not sure I could tell them apart without physical descriptions or links to the MBR clan. Maybe Rosalie, but only because she's the dependent Verity to Tom's Mary-Lou. It just seems as the series goes on, the vast majority of the people who stand out from the crowd do so for the wrong reasons. It seems a pity that, for instance, you could probably recognise Ruth Wilson without being told who she was because of her bullying manner with younger girls, but not, say, Vi Lucy without getting her name and her purple-eyed prettiness thing...?