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#1: Exams Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:44 am
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As I was journeying to work this morning, I started wondering what languge the girls did their exams in? I presume English (and obviously they seem to do English public exams) but once the school becomes trilingual, does it not seem a bit unfair that exams and the like would be in English?

#2: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:02 am
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I always assumed that school exams would be written in the language of the day.

I wonder what a GCE examiner would have made of a History paper submitted in French, or a German Maths paper, for example. Rolling Eyes

Probably failed the canidate on the spot. Sad

#3: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:33 am
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Are they corrected by outside people or by the CS staff? If the latter then I would go for the language of the day.

#4: Author: genka, Location: New Zealand

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:43 am
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The language of the day option seems a bit harsh for those who were 'duds' at languages. Imagine failing your exams because the subjects you were good at happened to fall on days where you struggled with the language! Shocked

#5: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:13 am
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I suspect the answer is that school exams - ie internal CS exams that determine who goes up and who stays where they are - are done in the language of the day (though, presumably, there's some built-in help for those who struggle with languages!), while official exams - ie O-Level, School Cert, A-Level, GCEs - were done in English on the grounds that they were English exams (err, by which I mean they were exams from England, rather than the subject!)...unless, of course, those exams were for French and German!

Ray *ponders why EBD never said*

#6: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:27 am
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In Ireland you get extra marks in the state exams (Junior Cert and Leaving Cert - like GCSEs and A-Levels) if you do them through Irish...

#7: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:29 am
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Ray wrote:

Ray *ponders why EBD never said*

It probably never occurred to her, just like most of the implications and effects of such a bonkers method of education.... Very Happy

I'd think English for external exams is a given, as they are set by the English Education Authorities.

Internal exams, I'm really not sure. I would say language-of-the-day, but what if, becuase of the exam schedule, one form ended up doing every exam in German (say). Not very fair. Trying to ensure that every form has an equal number of tests in each language (and maybe rotating them through the year so in the Autumn term you were examined in Geography in English, but in the Spring term it was French and the Summer term was German) would be a nightmare.

I'd propose having form tests / spot tests / prep in the language of the day, but all formal end of term exams in English, as those exams are part of the training the girls receive in how to pass formal exams (i.e. preparation for School Cert / O Levels, which will be in English). And they only form part of the annual assessment of each girl anyway - they always consider marks over the term plus mark in exams when they discuss who is getting their remove.

As I say, though, I doubt it ever occurred to EBD how this would work.

#8: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:25 am
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Kate wrote:

In Ireland you get extra marks in the state exams (Junior Cert and Leaving Cert - like GCSEs and A-Levels) if you do them through Irish...

It's 10% (it doesn't include language subjects and it's 5% for maths) and it's more of a leeway for things like regional grammar variations that might be counted as 'mistakes' by the correcting authorities.

In university there is a 'special' grant for those who do their subjects through Irish as well - it amounts to exactly the same money as the county council grant (full grant €3000, half that if your parents live within 15 miles of your chosen university), the only difference being that it isn't means-based, so anyone can apply.

I wonder what they do in Wales?

#9: Author: Carys, Location: London

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:49 am
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I haven't heard about Welsh speaking students getting any extra marks and you can only do exams in Welsh if you go to a Welsh school, I think. Do they have schools devoted to Gaelic speakers in Ireland?

The WJEC exam board provides papers in both Welsh and English, I'm not sure if they're exactly the same exam though.

Again I'm not sure if Welsh speaking students do get the opportunity to write exams in Welsh at degree level, maybe someone at a Welsh uni knows? Actually I don't think they do as one of my friends at Cardiff was telling me that his flatmate really struggled cause he had to write essays in English rather than Welsh.

I *think* (not 100% certain) that there is a Welsh primary school somewhere in London so I wonder what they do about SAT tests. I presume they get the same one's as Welsh schools in Wales.

Hmmm I'm being very vague here!

#10: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:50 am
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Cazx wrote:

I haven't heard about Welsh speaking students getting any extra marks and you can only do exams in Welsh if you go to a Welsh school, I think. Do they have schools devoted to Gaelic speakers in Ireland?

Yup, at primary and secondary level. They're called Gaelscoils (well, Gaelscoileanna in the Irish plural).

#11: Author: janem, Location: Ash, Surrey

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:16 pm
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Cazx wrote:

I *think* (not 100% certain) that there is a Welsh primary school somewhere in London so I wonder what they do about SAT tests. I presume they get the same one's as Welsh schools in Wales.

Hmmm I'm being very vague here!

I'm pretty sure they don't do SATS in Wales

#12: Author: Carys, Location: London

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:27 pm
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I did SATS when I was 7,11 and 14 at my Welsh comprehensive. Or do you mean Welsh language schools don't do them?

#13: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:55 pm
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Since all of the CS mistresses are fully trilingual, why not let each girl take exams in the language of her choice? Unless, of course, said exam is for English, French or German.

It is very strange hearing about SATs taken at such young and various ages. For us, it's the Scholastic Aptitude Test taken in the spring of one's junior year in high school (and possibly retaken later), so at about age 17, vital for admission to many universities.

#14: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:57 pm
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Kathy_S wrote:

It is very strange hearing about SATs taken at such young and various ages. For us, it's the Scholastic Aptitude Test taken in the spring of one's junior year in high school (and possibly retaken later), so at about age 17, vital for admission to many universities.

SATS in England are only in English, Maths, Science and ICT. They are not really useful, IMHO. Schools have to value them because they are official stats used in league tables, but as actual data on pupils some of it is not worth the paper it is written on because the kids are so conditioned for them (i.e. pupil comes in at 'level 4' across the board, and struggles to meet 'level 3'.)

Back on topic, I had never even considered the language question for the exams. I'd always assumed the 'official' exams would be in English, unless it was a language paper.

#15: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:27 pm
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Cazx wrote:

Again I'm not sure if Welsh speaking students do get the opportunity to write exams in Welsh at degree level, maybe someone at a Welsh uni knows? Actually I don't think they do as one of my friends at Cardiff was telling me that his flatmate really struggled cause he had to write essays in English rather than Welsh.

Depends which uni and which course you go on, apparently the midwifery course in Bangor they alternate English and Welsh medium each year, so if you wanted to do them in Welsh you'd apply that year.
in English the year after.

You can do the Welsh medium exams if you don't go to Welsh medium school, I went to an English medium comp and a few of the girls came from a Welsh medium junior school, certain subjects at GCSE they did the fluent Welsh ones (they also had seperate Welsh lessons, when we had them)

#16: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:32 pm
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In Ireland, SATs stands for Standard Attainment Tests - they're literacy and numeracy tests and the results are standardised and norm referenced. They're supposed to be done every year in primary school (best practice) but it's only compulsory in 1st and 5th classes (aged 6 and 11). They're not at all a big a deal as they seem to be in the UK, they're really only used to pick out children with learning difficulties etc. If a child is at or below the 10th percentile, he/she qualifies for Learning Support. I think also if they're at or above the 90th percentile, they're classed as Gifted and are entitled to Learning Support hours too, but the Resource/LS teachers are generally so over-subscribed that it doesn't often happen.

#17: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:10 pm
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Caroline wrote:

Ray wrote:

Ray *ponders why EBD never said*

It probably never occurred to her, just like most of the implications and effects of such a bonkers method of education.... Very Happy

Indeed, like what on earth did they do about textbooks?!

Quote:

Internal exams, I'm really not sure. I would say language-of-the-day, but what if, becuase of the exam schedule, one form ended up doing every exam in German (say). Not very fair. Trying to ensure that every form has an equal number of tests in each language (and maybe rotating them through the year so in the Autumn term you were examined in Geography in English, but in the Spring term it was French and the Summer term was German) would be a nightmare.

Well, at the school I was at, and more recently at the school my daughter went to, school exams took place over the course of a fortnight, so they would have had plenty of rotation! Although, assuming they had no exams on Saturday mornings, they'd have had only half as many exams to be written in English as in either of the other two languages.

I must admit my mind is boggling when I think how early Rosalie must have had to compile the exam timetables so that the staff in question knew which language to write the papers in. And what about when they were doing practice O-level papers..... No, EBD did not think this through!

#18: Author: fio, Location: swansea united kingdom

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:41 pm
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Wales phased out the year 2(age 7) sats in 2000/01 school year- the year AFTER Jonathan did them (got 3,3,3!) and the year 6 sats(age 11) in 05/06 school year- also the year AFTER Jonathan did them(got 5,5,5- only 1 of three in the school,and only boy!). I'm just waiting for him to do his sats next year(age 14,but he'll still be only 13!) and then they'll probably decide to do away with them as well- and goodness only knows what they'll decide to do after his GCSE's!!!!!! Rolling Eyes

#19: Author: Chair, Location: Rochester, Kent

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:15 pm
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I did my Year 6 SATs in the Summer of 1993. Our school and another school in the area were the trial runners for the SATs tests. I'm not sure how many other schools tried them out.

By the way, this topic has helped my plot bunny along for a new drabble!

#20: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:21 pm
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At the University of Wales, Bangor (still its official title for the moment so I'm using it!), Welsh-medium courses vary according to department (obviously apart from Cymraeg - Welsh - which is all in the language!). Some, such as Theology and History, do the same course just in both languages, and you choose which. And then there may be Wales-specific modules, or, say, Welsh History (which I think you can do through English). When I did linguistics in first year there was a Welsh Linguistics module I recall. Generally they helpfully write about English-medium modules in English, and Welsh-medium in Welsh. (Unlike my Breton courses here, which I thought would be French-medium...)

My department, Modern Languages, currently only offers English-medium courses, but I know they are working on implementing Welsh-medium ones soon. I suspect it depends on the staff - if none are Welsh-speakers they can't do Welsh-medium courses! My friend, who went to Welsh-medium schools, does Joint History and French, with the History through Welsh and the French through English!

Incidentally, I could be mistaken, but I believe UWB is the best of the Welsh universities at offering Welsh-medium courses. This is probably because North Wales is one of the strongest Welsh-speaking areas! We have a fairly alarming (coming from England!) bilingual policy too!

#21: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:30 pm
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My brain is breaking! I'd never thought about languages for exams, always assumed they'd be in English, though I'm not sure what that says about me! Given I'm Welsh and a Mod Langs teacher, you'd think I'd have gone beyond subconsciously assuming that English is the 'proper' language for official things!! Embarassed

I'm willing to bet EBD made the same assumptions, though!

#22: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:41 am
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The problem with being English-speaking is that it IS a major world-language. It makes learning another language that bit harder, IMO, because there is always the temptation to use English as so many people know it. This is certainly the attitude I come across a lot: "Why bother learning French when they all speak English anyway?" Out here, I speak French to strangers (ie the general public, people in lectures) as they ARE French, but English to my friends, who are English/Welsh/Irish and German!

#23: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:28 am
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I remember when I was younger being in France and trying to speak French - but as soon as people realised that English was my first language they insisted on speaking English to me. I'm not sure if it was because I was butchering their language or if they just wanted to practise their English...

#24: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:47 am
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Kate wrote:

I remember when I was younger being in France and trying to speak French - but as soon as people realised that English was my first language they insisted on speaking English to me. I'm not sure if it was because I was butchering their language or if they just wanted to practise their English...

I've had that problem in France, Spain and Italy when I've tried speaking the local language ... my accent is so appalling that people realise I'm English at once and answer me in English even though I haven't said anything in English Embarassed

#25: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:09 pm
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Is that better or worse than when your accent is decent enough when saying the one phrase you do know, that they reply to you in their language and you haven't a clue what they've said or how to reply?

Very Happy

Caroline - good at accents, rubbish at languages. And grammar, if that sentence is anything to go by.

#26: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:58 pm
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Kate wrote:

In Ireland, SATs stands for Standard Attainment Tests ... They're not at all a big a deal as they seem to be in the UK

We don't have them in Scotland at all. At least, we didn't when I was at school. I know they do more compulsory testing at specific ages now, but I've never heard of anything with that name being done here. Please feel free to correct me, anyone who teaches in a Scottish school!

#27: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:48 pm
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Rosie wrote:

Out here, I speak French to strangers (ie the general public, people in lectures) as they ARE French, but English to my friends, who are English/Welsh/Irish and German!

I did that, when I lived in Paris.

Beware when you come back to this country - shop staff do understand English!!!! Fell into that particular trap more than once - one year, some of my friends were from Montreal, and they said they always did in the UK as it was the same at home, too - English with friends and family, French when you were out.

I hope you and your set don't speak quite such appalling franglais as we did!

#28: Author: Lindsay, Location: Sweden/Kidderminster

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:29 pm
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Mrs Redboots wrote:

Rosie wrote:

Out here, I speak French to strangers (ie the general public, people in lectures) as they ARE French, but English to my friends, who are English/Welsh/Irish and German!

I did the same thing on my year abroad last year. My friends and I all had this great plan to always talk to each other in French (or German, depedning on which country I was in of course) to improve our speaking skills, but it just never happened because we always lapsed back into English - my franglais is now fluent, as is my Denglish (Deutsch/English)!

#29: Author: Rosie, Location: Land of Three-Quarters Sky

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:56 pm
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I find having red hair is a complete give-away! Although then they assume I am Irish, Scottish or occasionally German! The most annoying thing, however, is when they insist on speaking English, even when I am fairly confident my French really is better than their English, and so they're asking questions in English and I'm answering in French...

#30: Author: Alex, Location: Cambs, UK

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:30 pm
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We had a girl from Argentina to stay with us once (some exchange thing), her school was bilingual English and Spanish and they spoke it on different days. However, lessons were always taken in the same language throughout school life eg. Maths and History were always in Spanish, Biology and Musci were always in English. I don't know if all students did the same subjects in the same languages though. There are a lot of international students on my course, and I notice that when they speak their own languages together, they use the english words for specialist vocabulary. It sounds quite strange, especially with those who speak non-European languages.

#31: Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:44 pm
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When I was doing university exams here in Israel I always had a permit for twenty percent extra time in recognition of the fact that I would be thinking and writing slower in a foreign language. I think I was also allowed to take a hebrew/english dictionary into the exams, but I never actyually did. It was useful having the option of extra time, but I didn't always use it, and when I did it was in the subjects that I had found hatdest, and would probably have struggled with in any language.

Really though, I found that having studied the subject in hebrew meant that it was in my mind in hebrew, and that made it easy to write out answers the same way. It would have been harder at the CS, because they had three languages, but most teachers summarize what has been done in the previous class before starting on new material. I t woukld be very rare for a subject to be completed in one day and then never referred to again, so the girls could have had it in their minds in a selection of languages. I don't think that ti would have been too hard.

While exam grades have a certain value, I think teachers at the CS would have been aware that certain pupils could have done much better and were held back by languages. Jo makes some kind comment about how good Rosamunds grades were 'considering that she had to learn two new languages off the reel'. This would have influenced comment s on reports and so on.

By the time they were taking external exams, most girls had been at the school for a number of years, nad were supposed to be completely tri-lingual, to the point that the language would not have made a difference to their performance.

#32: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:03 pm
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Chair wrote:

I did my Year 6 SATs in the Summer of 1993. Our school and another school in the area were the trial runners for the SATs tests. I'm not sure how many other schools tried them out.

We were the trial primary in our LEA in 1994. Our teachers actually read out percentages out, they didn't give us levels. I got 97% in Englush, 95% in Science and 88% in Maths. Teacher freaked out because it wasn't over 90% Rolling Eyes

I blame my maths phobia on that experience...

#33: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:12 pm
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Rosie wrote:

The most annoying thing, however, is when they insist on speaking English, even when I am fairly confident my French really is better than their English, and so they're asking questions in English and I'm answering in French...

Lynne found this annoying too. She lived in italy for a few years and is fluent. But when she was on holiday in Naples with her sister the hotel waiter insisted on speaking English to her. She said it was really funny in an annoying way, because she spoke to him in Italian (with a Piedmontese accent!), and he spoke to her in English.

#34: Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:17 pm
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I've found myself doing that. It's as though once your brain is set on one language it finds it hard to change. Rolling Eyes

#35: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:13 am
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I did all my education til the end of my BA through Irish. As regards books in my secondary school, sometimes there wasn't an equivalent available in Irish, so we used an English textbook. This only happened for *thinks* history and biology. We had Irish language versions for maths and geography (and obviously language class books would be entirely in their own language ie French, German, English etc). For the classes where we had to use an English-language book, the class was still conducted entirely through Irish, in a sort of lecture format (where we took notes), so relegating the book to a kind of 'back up' text.

#36: Author: Charity,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:52 am
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Kate wrote:

We have such a problem with that in Cyprus. My husband is fully bilingual, we're working on it for our toddler, and I'm reasonably fluent. Frustratingly, even relatives keep speaking English to our daughter, although we ask them not to, and they actually apologise for giving her toys that speak in Greek!

#37: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:20 pm
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Hannah-Lou wrote:

In Scotland for the 5-13 year olds we have 'Levels' that the kids are expected to attain by a certain age. For eg most kids get to Level A by P3, and so on and so forth.

When I was in second year they were just extending the levels to F for kids who passed Level E early, but my brother who is only in first year has passed his Reading and Writing Level Fs already so they might introduce a Level G soon. Rolling Eyes

When I was at primary school we didn't do any level tests, and it wasn't till high school that I sat any. But now either they are enforcing them across the board or my particular primary is, cos all my younger brothers who have been there in the last couple of years or are still there are doing them.

ETA: I always assumed that all exams were in English, and definitely all the external exams. Can't see the GCE people being too happy about having translate half the papers depending on 'what day the exam is'.

A bit unfair for the non-English speaking pupils, but I expect their parents would have been aware of it when they sent their daughters.

#38: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:30 pm
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I think that the levels are across the board. As a primary teachers daughter, I still remember the confusion that seems to have come with it. In particular, I remember my Mum mentioning the difficulty that parents seemed to have at the reversing of the system they were used to, and imagining that level A was the highest possible, rather than level E...

I seem to think that they came in when I was p6 or 7, but I *may* be wrong on that...

#39: Author: francesn, Location: away with the faeries

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:56 pm
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Switching from one educational language to another can be a nightmare though, even very young, and I guess it would have been much harder as it got older. At my Welsh primary school we essentially learnt English as a foreign language and were taught entirely Welsh medium, but when we moved to England obviously I had to learn in English and I still remember that being really strange!

Apparently my parents had thought of sending me to the French school in London, on the grounds that I'd never been educated in English anyway and I might as well be taught in French and speak English at home!

#40: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:28 pm
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In 1993, I was HOD in an independent school which was one of those trialling the SATS. I had to mark them, moderate them, (all for free) and comment on the papers. I filled four typed sheets of A4, because what was on the actual papers bore absolutely no resemblance to what we had been told to prepare the pupils for.

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