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#1: The Problem of Evil Author: Han, Location: Wondering what to do with herself

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:15 pm
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I still haven't read very many CS books so this is as much a query about the series as a topic for discussion. I'm not sure how much Evil (with a capital E) features in the series, any problems are generally the result of schoolgirl mischief rather than anything else. But I'm intrigued as to how others see it featuring in the books.

In Princess Cosimo is evil but EBD makes a clear point about his insanity at the end, declaring him not responsible for his own actions. I was wondering about how she deals with evil in the series as a whole. Is evil ever allowed to exist or must there always be some kind of redemption/atonement or an excuse?

The only other 'evil' examples I can think of (from my limited reading) are Frau Berlin and Thekla - two snooty Germans. Is this just another example of racism? How does it play out in the war-era books?

I don't know if anyone else is interested in this theme at all but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

#2: Author: coddle,

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:17 pm
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How about that nasty matron in 'princess?'

#3: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:22 pm
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I don't think EBD intended Frau Berlin or Thekla to be regarded as evil. Badly behaved and having wrong attitudes, yes, but not evil. Frau Berlin is more a comedy figure than anything else, and Thekla was the product of her upbringing. EBD uses the word 'evil' several times in Exile to refer to the Nazis:

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We, the girls of the Chalet School, hereby vow ourselves members of the Chalet School League. We swear faithfully to do all we can to promote peace between all our countries. We will not believe any lies spoken about evil doings, but we will try to get others to work for peace as we do.

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There are terrible forces of evil abroad in the world, and we, as a School, must do our share towards ending them.

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‘Oh, how I would like to put Hitler, Göring, Goebbels, and the rest into the very worst concentration camp there is! And then their suffering couldn’t pay for what they’ve done!’
Madge stirred her mixture carefully before replying. ‘Isn’t that rather against the feeling of the League, Joey ?’
‘No!’ said Joey vehemently. ‘I don’t hate Germans—I’m too sorry for them, poor wretches! But those men aren’t human! They’re Evil made flesh, and we must hate what is Evil!’

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'How I do loathe this horrible war!’
‘But if it is necessary, Joey? If it’s to drive something utterly evil from the world?’

All of which reflect Neville Chamberlains' speech at the outbreak of war:

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"Now may God bless you all and may He defend the right. For it is evil things we shall be fighting against, brute force, bad faith, injustice, oppression and persecution. And against them I am certain the right will prevail."

So I don't think EBD saw any of her characters as evil - and as a devout Christian of course she also believed in redemption. I don't think any of her characters went unredeemed - not even Thekla.

#4: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:32 pm
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I was just going to mention those quotes from Exile about the evils of Nazism, JayB, but you got there before me! Very Happy

I think the only people EBD would have considered evil are those mentioned by Jo - Hitler, Goring, Goebbels, and others who espoused Nazism.

#5: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:31 pm
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Thekla's behaviour and attitudes are blamed largely on her upbringing and Frau Berlin is - as JayB said - really only a comedy figure.

Doesn't Robin say somewhere that Jo thinks Hitler is the Antichrist, just to add to the other war-related quotes?

I wouldn't say that they were "evil" as such, but 2 people whose behaviour is never excused as the result of a difficult background or anything else are Juliet's parents. Annis's aunt is another one, and so are Marie-Claire's unpleasant grandparents, and so is Matron Webb whom Coddle mentioned. They're all unpleasant rather than "evil" but they are all unredeemed "baddies".

#6: Author: Han, Location: Wondering what to do with herself

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:17 am
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I suppose I mean baddies rather than anything else, those whose actions are not excused in some way or other. It just struck me that the remarks about Cosimo seemed so incredibly pointed and it made me wonder why. It's probably the Christian need for redemption as JayB suggested.

#7: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:18 am
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What about the kidnappers in Redheads? They are thoroughly unpleasant, even if it’s about some sort of family loyalty.

#8: Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:13 pm
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They meet the same fate as Cosimo - to die of 'natural' causes - an illness or some other form of death with no human intervention, to meet judgement before an 'all understanding judge'.

In literary terms this could be seen as a cop out - she is just letting go of them without really dealing with them and the results of what they have done. On the other hand, it can be the most appropriate conclusion in real life. I was recently in the unfortunate position of witnessing a murder. A few weeks later I was very satisfied to hear that the murderer had died (of old age). I did feel that now he was going to meet true justice, where the background would be given full consideration, and he would get a full punishment, perfectly balanced to exactly what he deserved. Any court on earth would have taken to many factors into consideration, that he would probably have got off with a minimal prison sentence and a few months comunity service.

In terms of EBDs intended audience, it would not have been apprpriate for her to go into the details of dealing with evil on a personal level, even if she was capable of it. The Nazis were slightly different in that she dealt with them as a unit, universally condemed, and as the enemy in the war. The only Nazi who really features as a character is Gertrud, who becomes reformed through the influence of the school.

Every character who features who could be described as evil, has a background that explains it. Cosimo is mentally unstable, the criminal family in 'Redheads' (sorry, can't remember their name) were brought up to the conflict, and Getrud was also brought up as a Nazi. THey do not have the chance to behave differntly (except Gertrud, who does reform at the CS). The one person who receives no quarter is Dai Christy(?) - the Christy's pirate ancestor, who is barely a character anyway. Jo does say about him that "...doubtless they are still atoning for their sins."

In all cases death (and after events) are the atonement for evil deeds, but there is normally room for clemency in their backgrounds.

#9: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:17 pm
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It's interesting to think about the hints EBD gives about her feelings on the Nazis. On the one hand she is careful to condemn not Germans but Nazis. On the other hand what do you think she would have thought about the thousands of Germans who knew what was going on to a greater or lesser extent and chose not to resist it either through fear or through apathy? Do you think she would have expected real CS girls among them to stand up for their beliefs even where this would have resulted in their deaths and the deaths/torture of their loved ones? Or would she have condemned them for just living day to day and trying not to think about atrocities being commited in their name?

Sorry if I've dragged this off on an inappropriate tangent but I ask this question because I am horribly afraid about how I would behave under such a regime and am truly interested to hear the thoughts of others. I hope and hope I would have the courage to resist however I could but, in reality, I know I'd be terrified of being caught and I worry that this would just make me sit back and do nothing. I also know for a fact I'd start telling them all they wanted to know the minute they began torturing me. Or do you think we canever know how we'll behave until we are actually experiencing such a situation?

#10: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:03 pm
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EBD does have Herr Marani and Luigia di Ferrari dying in concentration camps rather than compromise their beliefs.

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Or would she have condemned them for just living day to day and trying not to think about atrocities being commited in their name?

I imagine she'd say it wasn't for one human being to judge the actions of another. Doesnt Miss Annersley say something to that effect somewhere?

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I am horribly afraid about how I would behave under such a regime and am truly interested to hear the thoughts of others. I hope and hope I would have the courage to resist however I could but, in reality, I know I'd be terrified of being caught and I worry that this would just make me sit back and do nothing.

Isn't there a conversation when one of the triplets, I think, says she could never be a martyr, and Joey says if that's what God wants of her, He will give her the strength she will need?

Not everyone has religious faith to draw upon of course, but I think you're right that we can't know what we'll do unless and until we're in that situation. Which I hope none of us ever will be.

#11: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:17 pm
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JayB wrote:

Quote:

Isn't there a conversation when one of the triplets, I think, says she could never be a martyr, and Joey says if that's what God wants of her, He will give her the strength she will need?

Yes, it's at the end of Carola when Len is saying it would hurt too much to be burned alive:

Quote:

‘I shall never be a martyr.’
Jo sat down limply on the bed and regarded her eldest girl with startled eyes. ‘Who wants it? And what on earth makes you think that? What is all this in aid of?’
‘Well, I couldn’t,’ Len said defensively. ‘Not if I had to be burnt to death, anyhow. It hurts too jolly much.’
‘Well, there’s no need for you to think of it at present, anyhow. And if God meant you to be a martyr, He would give you the courage so you needn’t worry about that any more.

#12: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:18 pm
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Tamzin wrote:

It's interesting to think about the hints EBD gives about her feelings on the Nazis. On the one hand she is careful to condemn not Germans but Nazis. On the other hand what do you think she would have thought about the thousands of Germans who knew what was going on to a greater or lesser extent and chose not to resist it either through fear or through apathy? Do you think she would have expected real CS girls among them to stand up for their beliefs even where this would have resulted in their deaths and the deaths/torture of their loved ones? Or would she have condemned them for just living day to day and trying not to think about atrocities being commited in their name?

I think she would have been understanding - look at how she dealt with Karl Linders. He was forced to fight for the Nazis although he didn't share their beliefs, and she sympathised wholeheartedly with him. I think that shows that she was understanding of the situation.

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