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art of my thinking is that some of what makes drabble writing so attractive is the sense of community it engenders and reinforces - in that you're writing for a group who will get certain jokes, or respond to certain conventions (or the upturning of certain conventions) in a specific way.

there was an interesting article on the Guardian on-line about Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan-fiction

I am more interested in the books than in people using drabbles as a way of woking through their own issues, and this type of drabble tends to fall under category number 3. Although I think this is clearly a valuable tool for many people. (and I wouldn't want to discourage people from doing so).

This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles.

KathrynW wrote:

This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles.

How did that work?

To clarify on "category 3" - it's not that I'm saying that the books are irrelevant and I'm just trying to gay up the CBB, rather that there are only certain stories that exist within the CS world that I'm motivated to tell... .

both .... [are] long-running, and feature numerous compelling characters but those characters and the relationships between them aren't always the focus of the story. Which leaves writers with plenty of scope to imagine what's going on behind the scenes

I'm intrigued by the constructive criticism angle too: how does this tend to work in a fan fiction environment (or ow did it work when more common on the cbb?). Was the criticism purely about style and plot development? Or did it relate to opinions on content as well, and how it related to characterisation and canon?

It is always a fine line to walk, though, and not everyone is interested in building up their writing skills, they just want to tickle an itch, which is also fine!

OT completely, but it amuses me greatly that two of the greatest pieces of world literature - Virgil's Aeneid, and Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde - are essentially fanfic responses to the Iliad and Odyssey.

so perhaps a way to encourage more of this (constructive criticism, that is] would be for people to indicate that they were looking for more serious/constructive criticism from readers? Maybe in the first drabble post, or the subject title.. o(r even have a separate house....).

This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles.

The writer of the Guardian article suggested fan fiction writing as a way to cure writer's block for 'serious' writing. Anyone found this?

Tor wrote:

The writer of the Guardian article suggested fan fiction writing as a way to cure writer's block for 'serious' writing. Anyone found this?

Actually, it tends to produce writer's block for serious writing!

... and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress.

I have managed to combine the two forms of fiction in one book though - my contemporary cosy mystery, Murder Fortissimo, is out end January and features a newly retired head teacher, Harriet. The clues are in there to indicate just which school Harriet went to, and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress.

What is the ettiquett around drabbles, please? If a publisher has a book, will publish, but can't publish it for over a year until the economic situation improves, may it be drabbled?

I like the idea of the constructive criticism. When you're so close to it you are completely blind to some very obvious flaws. Well, I am, anyway. If I could drabble the book-to-be it might be helpful.

Or would that be wrong?

This topic feels awfully off-topic for this section - would it be better placed somewhere else, mods?

sealpuppy wrote:

... and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress.

It wouldn't involve the words 'can' and 'may' by any chance, would it?

IIRC It wasn't so much that we had constructive criticism per se but rather that we had an unwritten rule that the almost pointless comments such as 'Oooh lovely' [pulchritudinous :wink:

] and 'Thanks' would be more useful if they contained something a little more substantial; also comments that were longer than the actual drabble update itself were not quite the done thing either!

I love writing, but drabbles are the only chance I get (other than diaries/LJ!) to write much - does that make me category 1 or category 2?!

I have to say I agree with Mia in disliking the responses (as a reader) that they rival war and peace!

This board is for all writers of CS fiction, it doesn't matter what else they write. Why do they have to write other stuff if for example, they only write EBD stuff but are prolific and have written over many years? Some of the best writers on this board, including those who are published by GGBP/others ONLY write GO drabbles or more specificly EBD fiction. Why does that mean they aren't writers? It doesn't!

I quite like the third definition in the opening post here - this is what I would call 'issue-led fanfic' ... I suppose some of the ones where Joey is evil fit this category too!

as Tor say's I'm not keen on people using their drabbles as a form of therapy

Sugar wrote:

I have to say I agree with Mia in disliking the responses (as a reader) that they rival war and peace!

I didn't say I disliked them just that they didn't used to happen here. I have no strong feelings either way.

I mentioned pygmy elephants at one point in case Tor was reading - don't think she was, though!

It certainly wasn't/isn't issue-led! Though I have to admit that I enjoyed Squirrel's drabble about autism, Mia, as it included many other interesting ideas, including one about Freudesheim becoming a retirement home for staff.

Even constructive crit can turn sour. There's one or two writers on the board that I just can't read because their layout/grammar/spelling is unreadable to me. Maybe if we had an atmosphere of concrit I'd feel OK about telling them that - but if everyone said that, would it put those people off writing altogether? I definitely don't want people to feel picked upon.

Firstly, I do have to agree - sometimes, I do just find posts are unreadable in parts, and a lot of the drabbles I don't read, I do so because I just find no enjoyment in trying to plough through the language barrier! I think that I, also, would be far more comfortable saying this with concrit (and for goodness sake, if my English is ever wrong, please do tell me someone! Aside from it bugging me that I might get things wrong, I generally do just enjoy learning new language rules, so I'll be far from offended!)

But, although I do take the point about it perhaps coming across as 'picking on' someone, I think that, like most things, when used responsibly it wouldn't be that way at all. Rather, one person might raise it, somebody else might agree but add a 'but', but then I think that other replies would be largely content to leave the point. I know that I, for one, only repeat what others have said when I really can't think of anything else to add.

I'm sorry if this is taking it a little bit OT, but I feel like it's a discussion worth having!

Your own ND arguably has a bereavement as a central issue actually. Most drabbles have some element of 'what if' about them on the board...

On the subject of criticism - am I right in thinking that there used to be some kind of "beta" thread here? I'd love for something like that to be started up again. Sometimes I badly need to bounce scenes or ideas off other people, and I'm not really close enough with any one on the board to feel able to ask them - um, off my own bat, as it were

This is interesting. Pointing out that someone keeps making spelling mistakes is IMHO much more "legitimate" criticism that saying something like "I just can't imagine Mary-Lou ever acting like that," or "I think this storyline is very far-fetched," but I think it would also seem much more like picking on someone.

I don't know whether other drabbles lead people to visualise their authors in a certain way or to assume they have certain character traits.

As for constructive criticism, it doesn't have to be critical!

I agree with this. The storylines in the drabbles portray the author's interpretation of how characters would behave in certain situations, however far-fetched. I wouldn't feel that a comment to say that someone doesn't believe a character would act in that way is particularly constructive as his/her interpretation would naturally differ to that of the author. I prefer the drabbles which are more closely related to the canon and there are a few which I don't read because I struggle with the spelling and grammar or because they're just too far fetched or too depressing - on occasion, for me, I find some characters bear no resemblance to the ones EBD created.

Interesting topic and one I remember from the 'old days'. Apols if I repeat PPs but I've spent about 2 hours reading this thread between distractions.

Way back when, a CBB fanfic writer would need to specify that they *weren't* after constructive criticism otherwise it was very much the norm to properly critique a work. And I do believe that much better works of fiction came out of the board for it. I actually think it was a better system as the quality of an individual's writing improved because they knew what bits worked and what didn't, and the board gained a reputation for good, quality fic because of it. Of course, there were always 'fun' stories which were dashed off, it wasn't all terribly serious and proper.

Re beta, it was again very much the norm for there to be beta requests very often. I can't recall whether there was one generic thread or if it happened more on an ad hoc basis. It worked well because a writer wasn't getting there own special friends to tell them how good their story was, but impartial feedback before the story went public.

I'm not sure where these got lost along the way but it's a shame, IMO.

*Aletea* wrote:

I remember this too. I'd very much like to go back to the old way because we did have an almost "gold standard" reputation for really high-quality fic that from talking to Chalet fans from other groups we don't seem to have any more.

On a wider note do people see fanfiction *with* single issues, for want of a better term, as something less than character-driven fanfiction? I categorically don't think it is myself!

I bet Joyce would put a kitten in a bin.

KathrynW wrote:

I bet Joyce would put a kitten in a bin.

Only if it preferred the Robin to her.

But I don't see New Dreams as being driven by the single issue of bereavement..? I said it arguably had bereavement as a central issue. I don't think anyone could say it wasn't about a bereavement. Bill *has* died..!

Do you think I am criticising New Dreams?

And it does have a great deal of comedy in it, as well, as most of its readers would testify. :twisted:

I do find it quite interesting that the 'fanon' aspect develops cross-drabble as it were - such as Joan Bertram being a baddie!

On a wider note do people see fanfiction *with* single issues, for want of a better term, as something less than character-driven fanfiction? I categorically don't think it is myself!

Sorry Mia, I disagree - the beta system was used a lot. I remember that people would ask for the sorts of betas they needed (so SPG, or brit-picking or whatevs)

I was talking about the sticky thread in Joey's Trunk, darling, not the beta system per se. This was just after or just before it was hacked so not quite as far back as that.

Well, I'm still considering dipping my toe in the water so ......

Interesting thread. I do like the supportive atmosphere here which greets drabbles, but on the other hand, I do think that there are some awful drabbles posted about which some commenters are far too kind (am I a terrible person for thinking this?

). If I come across this kind of story I don't comment, and in fact will avoid subsequent drabbles by the writer. After all, there are many good drabbles out there - why waste time on the bad ones? I do think constructive criticism is to be welcomed, but only if invited - after all, if the prime intention is merely to entertain (a St Clare's drabble, for example), such criticism is probably not warranted.

Author:	jayj [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Drabbles
It was the drabbles that first pulled me to the board, and after a few lost weekends reading them, I ended up writing my own. I’m not normally a fiction writer, so I’ve been thinking quite a lot recently about the mechanics of drabble writing, and I’ve got my own theories, but I’d be interested to know what other drabble writers and readers think. I’ve got a theory that there are maybe three different kinds of drabble writers. (1) People who are writers. By which I mean people who write fiction above and beyond what they write for drabbles, and who might also write drabbles that aren’t CS related. (2) People who aren’t really writers, but who want to extend their enjoyment of the fictional world by spending a lot of time playing with and thinking about the characters. (3) People who aren’t really writers, but who want to tell a specific kind of story. I’d put myself firmly in the third category: there’s only one story I want to / am able to tell (if you’ve read any of Throwing Caution into the Blaze, you’ll probably be aware that that story is girl+girl=happy end ). So do you fit into any of these categories? Are there any other kinds of categories that you can think of? How did you start writing CS drabbles? And how does writing stories for the board – where you’re writing for an audience that is known (and who are often keen to respond and encourage) affect how you write? Part of my thinking is that some of what makes drabble writing so attractive is the sense of community it engenders and reinforces - in that you're writing for a group who will get certain jokes, or respond to certain conventions (or the upturning of certain conventions) in a specific way. More generally, what do people (writers and readers) think of the relationship between writing drabbles and the canon? I know this was something that was touched on in the recent Fill-ins thread, but I wanted to mention it again. Interested to know what people think!

Author:	cal562301 [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
I wouldn't count myself as a serious writer, though I do have a lively imagination. All my drabbles so far have been crossovers. Not sure whether that counts as a 4th category, but personally I find it easier to write that type than one which is more EBD. Perhaps my drabbles will change as I write more or as I run out of ideas for crossovers! I can't answer that at the moment.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
there was an interesting article on the Guardian on-line about Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan-fiction which is relevant to this discussion (which is very interesting, I think: Sunglass (I think) started a similar discussion ages ago, but there is stacks more mileage in the topic IMHO). I enjoy reading drabbles as a way of playing with/subverting/extending themes and ideas in the series. As I said on the thread about fill-ins, I see them as another way of gaining insight in to how other people interpret and engage with the CS books (and beyond, when it comes to cross-overs - I love cross-overs, specially mad ones!). Your categories seem pretty spot on to me, jayj. I have to say I find category three drabbles tend to be ones I enjoy the least (although this is a huge generalization, and there are many exceptions)... it is just, on average, I am more interested in the books than in people using drabbles as a way of woking through their own issues, and this type of drabble tends to fall under category number 3. Although I think this is clearly a valuable tool for many people. (and I wouldn't want to discourage people from doing so). I enjoy writing fiction, but I only ever started one drabble (although I did have a story published in FOCS when I was 18 or 19!). It langusihes unfinished in the archives - and while I really enjoyed it, the whole time I felt a little bit silly/like cheating (from a creative point of view) using someone else's characters. Does anyone else feel this when writing fan fiction? I think that is why I went for a semi-comedic approach, and also why I ended up losing interest... that and the fact it was clearly a procrastination tool. At the same time, however, I sometimes like to pepper some of these more 'formal' discussion areas of the board with little vignettes of drabble-like prose. So I clearly feel the need ofr a fictional outlet for some of my thought on the CS. Maybe I am just too constrained by my own feelings about fan fiction as a creative outlet.... issues, ,moi? Quote: art of my thinking is that some of what makes drabble writing so attractive is the sense of community it engenders and reinforces - in that you're writing for a group who will get certain jokes, or respond to certain conventions (or the upturning of certain conventions) in a specific way. This is, I think, the clincher. The instant feedback from the community seems important to the ongoing development of the story, and the encouragement to continue with a story; something that one doesn't get when writing alone in ones garret!

Author:	Abi [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
The CBB's been huge for me when it comes to writing - I wrote before I discovered it, but no-one apart from me ever saw my writings. Looking back now, that first story (seven years ago - that's terrifying!) was fairly bad, but everyone was so nice and kind about it that I gained enormously in confidence and went on to write lots more on here. I know I would have carried on writing without the CBB, but I don't think I would have had the same confidence about it, and about showing my writings to other people! I think the reason I like to write CS fanfiction is just that I love the books and the characters, and as someone who loves to write anyway it seemed a natural progression to make up my own stories about them. Actually, I didn't even realise until I'd been writing for the CBB for a couple of years that there was such a thing as 'fanfiction' (I don't think people really used the term on here much) or that there was such a huge amount of it. Also, it's fun to be able to take someone else's characters and do something altogether different with them. I love writing crossovers because it's such fun to experiment and see how people from quite different worlds interact! As for canon, I don't regard drabbles (even my own!) as canon, but some of them are so compelling that I feel that they, perhaps, add to my sense of who the characters are, or offer new ways of understanding characters (for example, Finn's portayal of the Dennys, although I don't think of it as canon, makes me see them as more interesting characters than I did previously, and gives me a broader picture of their possible background).

Author:	KathrynW [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles.

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Drabbles http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8784

Author:	jayj [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Interesting to hear people's opinions on this! Tor wrote: there was an interesting article on the Guardian on-line about Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan-fiction Yes - I saw that - and I have to admit that my only other experiment with fanfic was some pretty pretentious Buffy-related (ok, Willow/Tara-related) stuff many years ago.... Tor wrote: I am more interested in the books than in people using drabbles as a way of woking through their own issues, and this type of drabble tends to fall under category number 3. Although I think this is clearly a valuable tool for many people. (and I wouldn't want to discourage people from doing so). To clarify on "category 3" - it's not that I'm saying that the books are irrelevant and I'm just trying to gay up the CBB, rather that there are only certain stories that exist within the CS world that I'm motivated to tell... . The Buffy parallel is an interesting one (to me, at least, though possibly that's because it's the only other world of fanfic that I know anything about)- though obviously it's a much bigger fanverse (is that word?) that the CS one. What's common to them both is the fact that they're both based on genre fiction/series, and are both long-running, and feature numerous compelling characters but those characters and the relationships between them aren't always the focus of the story. Which leaves writers with plenty of scope to imagine what's going on behind the scenes - like Abi says, Finn's Dennys are a lovely example of this. I'd imagine long running series with lots of well-drawn but minor character are the main source of fanfic, but I've no evidence to prove it. KathrynW wrote: This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles. How did that work?

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
jayj wrote: KathrynW wrote: This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles. How did that work? Constructive criticism = explaining to someone where the weak areas in their writing are as well as the good, rather than merely showering them with blanket praise regardless of the actual quality of their work. Constructive criticism is enormously valuable to any writer, as long as they are receptive to it, as it allows them to build on their strengths and work on their weaknesses, thus improving their writing. I've dabbled in fanfiction for many years now, off and on - rather more off than on, truth be told, but I've played around in a number of different fandoms (including Buffy!). I don't read a huge amount of fanfiction and I also don't write huge amounts of fanfiction, but I'm very clear on what I like, which is stories that build on canon, and can be read as an extension of the original, rather than anything that veers away from or even contradicts canon. I know that as a writer I've benefitted enormously from constructive criticism over the years, especially back when I took my first faltering steps into the world of fanfiction, and I know that I am a much better writer for it.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Quote: To clarify on "category 3" - it's not that I'm saying that the books are irrelevant and I'm just trying to gay up the CBB, rather that there are only certain stories that exist within the CS world that I'm motivated to tell... . Oh, I know. I'm not saying all 'category 3' stories are 'issue' based and irrelevant to the books, but I think those that are fall into this category. I haven't read your drabble yet makes note to do so , so it defintiely wasn't a comment on that/you Quote: both .... [are] long-running, and feature numerous compelling characters but those characters and the relationships between them aren't always the focus of the story. Which leaves writers with plenty of scope to imagine what's going on behind the scenes Yes, the construction of a coherent and believable world with lots of layers and information that EBD doesn't feel the need to expand on. Gives the series more depth than it would otherwise have, and ample room for ones own imagination to fill in those gaps. Kudos to EBD! I'm intrigued by the constructive criticism angle too: how does this tend to work in a fan fiction environment (or ow did it work when more common on the cbb?). Was the criticism purely about style and plot development? Or did it relate to opinions on content as well, and how it related to characterisation and canon? By which I mean, was the criticism internal wrt to the story itself (I dont' feel x character as you have portrayed them would have done y, or there are plot holes here, here and here), or in relation to the series on which they are based. The former would certainly be useful... the second interesting in terms of learning more about how people read/respond to the books. The writer of the Guardian article suggested fan fiction writing as a way to cure writer's block for 'serious' writing. Anyone found this?

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Tor wrote: I'm intrigued by the constructive criticism angle too: how does this tend to work in a fan fiction environment (or ow did it work when more common on the cbb?). Was the criticism purely about style and plot development? Or did it relate to opinions on content as well, and how it related to characterisation and canon? I don't know how it's been handled here in the past, still being relatively new, but I've come from fanfic environments that actively encouraged constructive feedback on stories. A lot depends, of course, on how well you know the writer, how receptive they are likely to be to such feedback, and how willing you are to give them detailed feedback or trust yourself to couch it nicely. But I know that personally I get far more out of a comment along the lines of, 'I was really interested in the concept you've explored here and felt that you'd captured the characters well, but the story might have benefitted from a little more research into X, and I also noticed that you'd made quite a few spelling/punctuation mistakes that threw me out of the story,' than I do from any number of throwaway comments along the lines of, 'oh how lovely' - nice though the latter is to read! It is always a fine line to walk, though, and not everyone is interested in building up their writing skills, they just want to tickle an itch, which is also fine!

Author:	jayj [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
OT completely, but it amuses me greatly that two of the greatest pieces of world literature - Virgil's Aeneid, and Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde - are essentially fanfic responses to the Iliad and Odyssey.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Quote: It is always a fine line to walk, though, and not everyone is interested in building up their writing skills, they just want to tickle an itch, which is also fine! so perhaps a way to encourage more of this (constructive criticism, that is] would be for people to indicate that they were looking for more serious/constructive criticism from readers? Maybe in the first drabble post, or the subject title.. o(r even have a separate house....). Those who just wanted to tackle an itch, or didn't feel ready for it could go on as they are now... Quote: OT completely, but it amuses me greatly that two of the greatest pieces of world literature - Virgil's Aeneid, and Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde - are essentially fanfic responses to the Iliad and Odyssey.

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Tor wrote: so perhaps a way to encourage more of this (constructive criticism, that is] would be for people to indicate that they were looking for more serious/constructive criticism from readers? Maybe in the first drabble post, or the subject title.. o(r even have a separate house....). I usually do just that...although I've just looked and seen that I haven't for the drabble I currently have on the go here - which is in itself something of an experiment, as I have never tried posting a work in progress in stages before. In fact, I'd say it was difficult to give truly constructive criticism of a work in progress, at least in terms of plot, because you don't get the complete picture until the story reaches its end, although you can offer feedback as you go along on other areas such as narrative style, characterisation, spelling and grammar, etc. This topic feels awfully off-topic for this section - would it be better placed somewhere else, mods?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
KathrynW wrote: This is a bit OT but I do think it's a shame that we've moved away from the idea of constructive criticism of drabbles. Well I, for one, would love to see this back - for my own writing at least (like, stop spamming up the board ) Just so y'all know! Personally, I write drabbles because it's fun, and for me a lot of characters are my own - it's been annoying me recently as I've noticed that a lot of my drabbles now are based on the Maynard family after the end of the series. But at the same time, I love this, as it allows me to create my very own characters and build them in to a series I love - so Albert and Charlie, two of my favourites, came in as spouses to Maynard children, and even if I might be disagreed with, I tend to regard Cecilia as very much my own as well; EBD created her, but never really gave her enough of a character. To me, Cecil is a name on a page in a long brood of Maynards. Cecilia is a living, breathing person who asks me to tell her story. Tor wrote: The writer of the Guardian article suggested fan fiction writing as a way to cure writer's block for 'serious' writing. Anyone found this? Actually, it tends to produce writer's block for serious writing! I'm getting stuck into a new, non-CS project at the moment, and really enjoy it, and still it keeps getting put off because I've had yet another drabble idea to work on! I've got two big ones waiting until I finish non-CS writing, both of which I'm really eager to get started on, and various smaller ones which are begging to be written (and, being small, usually get given in to) As other people have said, drabbles weren't the first time I'd written, but they were the first time I'd really shown my writing to people - and I really do think this is an excellent place to start on that! Aside from the CS almost naturally lending itself to drabbles, the users on the board are so supportive and encouraging. I would like to think that my writing generally has improved from posting on here. Also, it's just very good fun! Talking of which, I need to go and write something that's bugging me...

Author:	midge [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
I just enjoy writing! Any random stuffs

Author:	whitequeen [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
I'm definitely a category 1. I enjoy all kinds of writing, online and offline, and what I do here is basically indulge ideas I've had - it pleases me greatly that people actually follow what I write on here! Constructive criticism - it's very helpful, but you have to be careful about any arena where readers just automatically throw it out there. If the writer hasn't asked for it and maybe isn't aware that it was coming, then it could really upset someone - not everyone is able to handle negative comments, no matter how well intended they are. It would be better, I think, only to give that on a drabble where the writer has invited it, and not as policy on them all. I could see it putting some more sensitive writers off posting. I've written on other places that do critique, and it's great, but on here I'm perfectly happy with the odd "I enjoyed that" and so on! (You don't have to say it if it isn't genuine after all!) It is difficult to write with other people's characters. I'd say more difficult than your own, although it always comes as a surprise because you feel like you know these people so well after reading about them for so many years and discussing them on here. Star Trek authors have said the same thing actually... they write away, thinking they're playing with old friends, and suddenly the characters are coming across like mannequins and saying things that they never would. and then that leads into a fear that you will wreck or betray this character that other people also already love, or get something wrong, which can be paralysing. I still love reading them though and playing around with them

Author:	sealpuppy [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Tor wrote: The writer of the Guardian article suggested fan fiction writing as a way to cure writer's block for 'serious' writing. Anyone found this? Actually, it tends to produce writer's block for serious writing! Both quotes are true for me! I like to dabble in a drabble when the WIP is going slowly but sometimes it's far too much fun to play in the CS sandpit when I should really be getting on with a 'real' novel. I think the drabbles are my guilty secret - very few people I know have any idea that I'm a Chalet School girl and still fewer that I indulge myself with drabble-writing. I have managed to combine the two forms of fiction in one book though - my contemporary cosy mystery, Murder Fortissimo, is out end January and features a newly retired head teacher, Harriet. The clues are in there to indicate just which school Harriet went to, and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
sealpuppy wrote: ... and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress. It wouldn't involve the words 'can' and 'may' by any chance, would it?

Author:	Abi [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
sealpuppy wrote: I have managed to combine the two forms of fiction in one book though - my contemporary cosy mystery, Murder Fortissimo, is out end January and features a newly retired head teacher, Harriet. The clues are in there to indicate just which school Harriet went to, and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress. Off topic, but I spotted you and Murder Fortissimo being mentioned in an article in January's Writing Magazine, Nicky. On the topic of constructive criticism, I don't remember there being a huge amount on here from before - I first started posting in 2003, so maybe it was before then? Or in the 2005-8 gap where I wasn't around? There was an awful lot of yibble on drabble threads, though - I think it's good that we don't tend to do that any more!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
What is the ettiquett around drabbles, please? If a publisher has a book, will publish, but can't publish it for over a year until the economic situation improves, may it be drabbled? I like the idea of the constructive criticism. When you're so close to it you are completely blind to some very obvious flaws. Well, I am, anyway. If I could drabble the book-to-be it might be helpful. Or would that be wrong?

Author:	Abi [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
julieanne1811 wrote: What is the ettiquett around drabbles, please? If a publisher has a book, will publish, but can't publish it for over a year until the economic situation improves, may it be drabbled? I like the idea of the constructive criticism. When you're so close to it you are completely blind to some very obvious flaws. Well, I am, anyway. If I could drabble the book-to-be it might be helpful. Or would that be wrong? I may be wrong, but I shouldn't think the publisher would be too happy about it.

Author:	Mia [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Llywela wrote: This topic feels awfully off-topic for this section - would it be better placed somewhere else, mods? I think it's fine here. It's a really interesting thread. I shall formulate a non-modly response!

Author:	abbeybufo [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Llywela wrote: This topic feels awfully off-topic for this section - would it be better placed somewhere else, mods? It's fine here - it's relevant to the board, and thus to EBD, so this is the place Ruth with mod hat on

Author:	sealpuppy [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
ChubbyMonkey wrote: sealpuppy wrote: ... and there's also a quote from her late, much loved headmistress. It wouldn't involve the words 'can' and 'may' by any chance, would it? Er, might do... Re Constructive criticism. I think it's something that can be very helpful but can also be dangerous! One of my sidelines is writing appraisals of unpublished novels - this is for the Romantic Novelists' Association New Writers' Scheme, (which is a brilliant resource btw for anyone whose novel contains relationships, and definitely not just for romances a la Cartland). I am paid to write these appraisals and I am an experienced novelist so my criticisms are informed and honest. They are also written anonymously, as a protection for the reader/appraiser. There have been instances of enraged new writers trying to track down their critics! My critiques are never unkind and always start with the carrot, but there is always a stick - there are always improvements and adjustments to be made. Being anonymous is a great help. I've judged and appraised (openly)short story competitions and believe me, people are very rarely able to accept criticism of their work at first. I've had writers (mostly men, I'm bound to say) interrupt a meeting to argue with me, though on reflection yes, they will often come back and say: you were right. I've no experience of the kind of critiques done on drabbles so it will be interesting to read, but it's not a tool to be used lightly! Criticism of your work is harder to take than criticism of your child! (Thanks, Abi, I knew there was an article coming out, will go and find it!)

Author:	sealpuppy [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
julieanne1811 wrote: What is the ettiquett around drabbles, please? If a publisher has a book, will publish, but can't publish it for over a year until the economic situation improves, may it be drabbled? I like the idea of the constructive criticism. When you're so close to it you are completely blind to some very obvious flaws. Well, I am, anyway. If I could drabble the book-to-be it might be helpful. Or would that be wrong? Just spotted this. I'm pretty certain you would be giving up your First British rights by drabbling it. This is an open forum and the drabbles can be read by anyone, isn't that so? The publisher would certainly take a dim view of it. As to flaws, if the publisher has accepted the book he/she will be aware of any flaws and your editor should sort those out when it comes to the time.

Author:	Mia [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
IIRC It wasn't so much that we had constructive criticism per se but rather that we had an unwritten rule that the almost pointless comments such as 'Oooh lovely' [pulchritudinous ] and 'Thanks' would be more useful if they contained something a little more substantial; also comments that were longer than the actual drabble update itself were not quite the done thing either! I quite like the third definition in the opening post here - this is what I would call 'issue-led fanfic'. I actually wouldn't quite count your Nancy/Kathie drabble as in this definition, Jay, as for me that's also quite character-led too (my favourite type). I think my issues with issue-led fanfic - the only one I can bring to mind is one about an autistic girl joining the CS though I suppose some of the ones where Joey is evil fit this category too! - is that I prefer a sort of slow burn that's character-driven and slightly EBDish and one-issue fic tends to be more overridingly the author's own views and agenda. I'm not fond of the changing of names either - Len to Helena, etc which I see as a similar thing alhough I can see the reasons for doing it now CM has pointed it out! It jars and I think 'who is this person?!' lol I fell into writing a drabble on here because I spend an awful lot of time writing really heavy stuff for my job and drabbles are a bit of an escape tbh. Sorry for the ramble...

Author:	Abi [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Mia wrote: IIRC It wasn't so much that we had constructive criticism per se but rather that we had an unwritten rule that the almost pointless comments such as 'Oooh lovely' [pulchritudinous ] and 'Thanks' would be more useful if they contained something a little more substantial; also comments that were longer than the actual drabble update itself were not quite the done thing either! Yes, that's true. I hadn't really thought about it, but I see what you mean now you point it out. Maybe it's because there are more drabbles now (or possibly I have less time... )...

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
I'm completely oversensitive and would probably be a wimp about too much criticism (sorry!), and also I'm conscious that people are doing their writing in their free time whereas someone who's a paid professional writer is more "fair game" in terms of criticism, but I find it interesting to see how other people interpret what I've written, which is sometimes different from what I intended. I prefer those to something like "Thanks for the update," but it's always good to get any sort of comments and know that someone's actually reading whatever I'm waffling about . I love writing, but drabbles are the only chance I get (other than diaries/LJ!) to write much - does that make me category 1 or category 2?! On the relationship between drabbles and canon, some drabbles are obviously a long way removed from canon, either because they involve sci-fi/fantasy or because they're about subjects which EBD would never have touched on or show her favourite characters in a less than positive way, whereas others do fit with the CS world even if they're set in alternative universes or are crossovers, but I don't really see any drabbles as being canon. We've all got our own ideas about what happened before or after the series or to characters after they left the CS, and also I don't think any of us really write like EBD because we live in a different world to hers. I actively dislike some of the officially sanctioned sequels to well-loved books (don't get me started on Scarlett, or on that awful "sequel" to Jane Eyre!) but I love the CBB drabbles.

Author:	Sugar [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Alison H wrote: I love writing, but drabbles are the only chance I get (other than diaries/LJ!) to write much - does that make me category 1 or category 2?! Category 1.... This board is for all writers of CS fiction, it doesn't matter what else they write. Why do they have to write other stuff if for example, they only write EBD stuff but are prolific and have written over many years? Some of the best writers on this board, including those who are published by GGBP/others ONLY write GO drabbles or more specificly EBD fiction. Why does that mean they aren't writers? It doesn't! Admittedly, there are people who write drabbles who are less skilled in all manner of things, actual writing as well as good charaterisation and those would fit into the 2 or 3 category My two pence worth. As an author, I love getting feedback that's a bit more substantial than "thanks great update" partly cos it shows you are engaging with the writing but if "thanks great update" is all you can manage that'll do me! One thing that used to happen was that newer drabblers would often ask a more prolific/well known drabbler to proofread/beta their work, before it was posted so that any glaring/jarring grammar/styling/characterisation could be looked at again. I did this with my "One Wish" (which fits into the longer drabbles) as I just wanted to check with someone more experienced. Apparantly I needn't have worried as according to people's responses I write brilliantly. However, that was in the day's when you were more likely to get comments on the story as well as a generic thank you. However, when I was writing the "Before I'm" series which are CS/CBB crossovers I just posted as it wasn't so important and I knew I could write well from previous feedback. /but I'm all for more content in responsesbut I have to say I agree with Mia in disliking the responses (as a reader) that they rival war and peace! I don't think comments regarding how the character is being written (i.e.X wouldn't have done Y after leaving the school unless you said I never imagined X was going to have a gay rel with Y) are helpful as we all see the characters differently but comments discussing speech style etc so I never imagined X would swear or whathave you. Personally,I started writing for the "Not the Summer Gather" drabbles but misread the word length and started an epic but now tend to write short things but will get One Wish finished by Christmas 2012 I promise! I prefer a well written, well researched, thought out drabble where it's obvious time and thought has gone into it but that doesn't totally detract from EBD's characterisation (if reading St Therese/ St Agnes here, as opposed to St Clare's/St Schlostika, where the madness reigns!) but some of the issue led ones or those which seem to "gay up!" (I use Jayj's term) all the characters I avoid as, as Tor say's I'm not keen on people using their drabbles as a form of therapy. I love the mad ones and the crossovers (Tor, if you enjoy mad as toast ones have a look at my Before we're 30 / Before I'm 90 as those are multi crossover and mad (and mine so excuse the self publicity!)

Author:	Miss Di [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
As I've only ever written one drabble and tend to keep my commentst to "Ohhh lovely" I'm not really the right person to comment - but I agree with the people who've said constructive criticism should be invited rather than offered. I can see it could be very offputting for some people who might then not post at all.

Author:	Mia [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Sugar wrote: I have to say I agree with Mia in disliking the responses (as a reader) that they rival war and peace! I didn't say I disliked them just that they didn't used to happen here. I have no strong feelings either way.

Author:	mohini [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
I write drabbles because I love to write and it is nice to imagine situations around well known characters. My only problem is that my drabble starts to deviate depending on the comments by the board. It gives me a new insight and there for I usually do not write down the whole story none go but let it develop. But I would loev to have comments and criticism about my language, sentence construction and writing in general. I love what I write but am ready for improvement. MAy resent criticism initially but on sleeping on it I would realize it was correct.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Thank you so much for the info about not drabbling a book which will be published. The publisher has it on the condition that they are the only holders so I should have been able to work out that serialising it as a drabble wouldn't be allowed. I am a bit thick, really. I find that doing a whole book for publishing takes me so longn that I don't have time for extraneous writing. However, with the weather as it is I might get time to have some fun writing drabbles. I love to read them and have printed out several of those I like best - they're in a folder so that I can read them 'like books'. Such fun, and I admire enormously thsoe who have these ideas.

Author:	jayj [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Sugar wrote: This board is for all writers of CS fiction, it doesn't matter what else they write. Why do they have to write other stuff if for example, they only write EBD stuff but are prolific and have written over many years? Some of the best writers on this board, including those who are published by GGBP/others ONLY write GO drabbles or more specificly EBD fiction. Why does that mean they aren't writers? It doesn't! I don't think I was trying, or intending, at least, to say that people who only write for the board AREN'T writers. The discrimination I think I was trying to make, is that there are some people for whom thinking about characters, plot, language, and storytelling is just what they do, it's their thing, and they might do it for multiple different stories in CS land, or in multiple different places in the wider world (and world wide web). And there are some people for whom doing those things aren't really their thing, and they might dabble in drabble only occasionally, and have to take a very long lie down in between dabbles. And what I like about the board/drabble writing is how it licenses both kinds of approach - everyone gets to play. (And this would be the last place I'd attempt to denigrate the writers of GO fiction for their choice of subject matter.... ) Anyway, on to the topic of feedback and responses. I think some of the nicest responses can be when people respond to characters or elements of plot as if they're real - where readers have completely bought into the drabbler's representation of the world. I think the cautions that have been raised though - that criticism is something to be used very carefully - is a valid one, for, after all, we're all only doing this for fun!

Author:	Tor [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drabbles
Quote: I quite like the third definition in the opening post here - this is what I would call 'issue-led fanfic' ... I suppose some of the ones where Joey is evil fit this category too! I must admit this crossed my mind as too! Quote: as Tor say's I'm not keen on people using their drabbles as a form of therapy But I must add that I am very aware that many of my own 'issues' colour the majority of my posts in these discussion sections, so whilst I don't really enjoy reading issue-led fan fic, I suspect I am as much a culprit of using areas of the board as a place to vent as others! One thing I have noticed (only rarely, mind) is that during forma/anything else discussions authors sometimes speak about characters they are writing about as though they have particular knowledge/insight. As though they have taken on some kind of ownership of the character.... I find this very interesting, as it blurs the line between interpretation and creation. Looping back to the 'issue-led' idea in drabbles and/or discussions, this also has parallels with the topic Mia brought up a few weeks back abut fan perceptions of EBD, and EBDs mores, opinions/knowledge about class/gender/sexuality. Where people bring their own ideas and experiences into discussions, and quite firmly believe that EBD would/could not have portrayed x,y or z...